Racing with a Power Meter Redux:

[WarrenG]

It is a great confirmation that using power is the best way to monitor our efforts and that the extra weight (if there was any) is well worth it.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

Since you claim to have friends associated with pro teams, why don't you tell us why all those teams aren't using PM's during their races?

150+ guys in the Tour. How many of them had PM's on their bikes? How many guys who are not sponsored or paid by a PM company were using them?

 

[ric_stern/RST]

Since you claim to have friends associated with pro teams, why don't you tell us why all those teams aren't using PM's during their races?

150+ guys in the Tour. How many of them had PM's on their bikes? How many guys who are not sponsored or paid by a PM company were using them?

I'm curious (again!): why do you have a power meter (a PT right?) if presumably you don't think they're needed (i think that's what you've alluded to), as you can tell everything from watching people race (I think that's what you've previously said, but if you haven't apologies)?

Ric

 

[WarrenG]

I'm curious (again!): why do you have a power meter (a PT right?) if presumably you don't think they're needed (i think that's what you've alluded to), .. but if you haven't apologies)?

Ric

I have a PT and it's useful during training. Do you have answers to my questions above?

 

[ric_stern/RST]

I have a PT and it's useful during training. Do you have answers to my questions above?

why would it be useful only for training? i don't understand why you can't observe what you observe when you're racing for when you're training.

Q above: quite a few had power meters on their bike. I saw quite a lot of telemetry. i'd say that the majority of people who had power meters on their bikes during the Tour weren't sponsored.

ric

 

[frenchyge]

Since you claim to have friends associated with pro teams, why don't you tell us why all those teams aren't using PM's during their races?

150+ guys in the Tour. How many of them had PM's on their bikes? How many guys who are not sponsored or paid by a PM company were using them?

Well, I doubt that the winner really cares how many competitors weren't using them or why not -- I know I don't.

Really, though, all the same arguments that are made against racing with PMs (extra weight, little value over PE, don't have the luxury of limiting one's effort, etc.) can be made just as well against HRMs, but somehow I get the impression that many more pros still race with HRMs. Why don't those guys switch to PMs? Probably because they (and/or their coaches) don't understand the benefits PMs could provide, and they prefer to stick to something they understand instead. In time, PMs will become at least as common among the pro ranks as HRMs, since cost is no issue for them (unlike in amateur races).

 

[RapDaddyo]

Well, I doubt that the winner really cares how many competitors weren't using them or why not -- I know I don't.

Extending the logic, I could care less whether the pros use PMs or not. I care whether a PM is beneficial to me, for training and racing. It is. Next topic.

 

[WarrenG]

why would it be useful only for training? i don't understand why you can't observe what you observe when you're racing for when you're training.

Maybe you don't trust the feedback of your riders?

Floyd rides away from Andreas on a climb. Andreas, how many watts were you making? Not enough. I was okay for the first 5 minutes but then I couldn't hold on to him.

Dennis, you rode well on that climb with Levi and Floyd. How many watts were you making? Enough to stay with the two best guys on the day and win the sprint. How many watts was your sprint? I think it was about 650. That is what it took to win after all of the climbing and attacks on that day.

Carlos, you looked good on that last climb. How many watts were you making? I don't know. I was going as hard as I could go at that time (considering all the previous efforts of the last 3 weeks) and trying to increase my gap to the riders behind me.

Tom, you were second in the sprint to McEwen. How many watts were you making? Not enough.

How many watts was I making on the Alpe? Let's see, we know your average speed (or total time), your weight, and the average gradient, so the watts are x.

I have trouble with the hard efforts during the last 2-3k's of fast criteriums. Well, your training sessions for that ability show your power has been, x, y, z, so we can try to improve upon those numbers during those training sessions.

I can hang with the pack just fine in a criterium that has about 4 normal turns but I got struggle in a criterium with many tight turns. Okay, (assuming your skills are okay) we can train to improve your ability for the corners because whatever your power is during those efforts, it's not enough.

So and so was one minute faster than me, or I got dropped on the final climb, or I lost in the sprint. I must improve that ability. What is the training session I do to improve that ability? Well, it is a,b, and c, and my power during those training sessions is w, y, and z. Okay, to improve your ability during that race effort we need to increase your ability/power during the appropriate training sessions you do for that ability.

I'm sure you can come up with more examples...

...quite a few had power meters on their bike.
ric

How many? Which teams? Pictures of them anywhere?


Robbie Ventura commenting on the PT CPU on Floyd's handlebar during his long escape. Does Floyd look at that to tell him how hard he's riding? Floyd will be going mainly off PE but occasionally he might glance at it. (And besides, PowerTap is a sponsor who will appreciate this exposure and Floyd's bike is so light now that the extra weight of the PT puts his bike right at the minimum weight limit.)

 

[frenchyge]

I'm sure you can come up with more examples...

Sure, like...

Dennis and Levi, you were able to stick with Floyd in the Pyrennes, so why weren't you able to do so in the Alps. Gee, I guess I was too tired?

Carlos and Oscar, you looked great in the Alps but what happened in the Pyrennes. Uhh, I guess my form hadn't come around yet?

Whether you trust the feedback of the rider or not, the PM is completely objective. It will tell you if you had a bad day, or if the other guy's was just plain better.

 

[WarrenG]

Whether you trust the feedback of the rider or not, the PM is completely objective. It will tell you if you had a bad day, or if the other guy's was just plain better.

Like, I did 370 watts on the third climb of the day in the Pyrenees but only 340 watts a week later in the Alps. Yeah, so what? I knew I was more tired, or the attacks were different, or it was hotter, or I didn't have the right pace for me, or the gradient suited me better, or worse, or it was not worth it to go au bloc today because tomorrow..., etc., etc. Should I change my training based on knowing that number?

They look for trends, not one day good or bad.

Talk with those riders for a few minutes about their race. They have experience with their abilities and bike racing that you do not have with yours. If they felt like they needed a PM in races they'd use one. Or maybe you're just smarter about these things than all of them?

 

[frenchyge]

Like, I did 370 watts on the third climb of the day in the Pyrenees but only 340 watts a week later in the Alps. Yeah, so what? I knew I was more tired, or the attacks were different, or it was hotter, or I didn't have the right pace for me, or the gradient suited me better, or worse, or it was not worth it to go au bloc today because tomorrow..., etc., etc. Should I change my training based on knowing that number?

That's up to you, but at least you have a number to compare for those two rides. Without the PM all you have is "I could hold his wheel one day, but not the other," so the number of variables to consider is doubled, since they all affect the other guy's ride as well.

They look for trends, not one day good or bad.

Without objective data, what trends do they have to look at?

Talk with those riders for a few minutes about their race. They have experience with their abilities and bike racing that you do not have with yours. If they felt like they needed a PM in races they'd use one. Or maybe you're just smarter about these things than all of them?

Or maybe I'm an early adopter. Or maybe they are afraid to mess with a system that's already gotten them to the top level of the sport. Or maybe they put complete faith in their coaches and don't really understand things beyond "lighter bike = faster." I'll stand by my prediction that the number of PMs used by the pro peloton will increase every year. If that happens then maybe I am just smarter about those things then all of them (or at least quicker on the uptake).

 

[acoggan]

A good coach can work out a riders strengths and weakness's from power data. I wonder if this is the reason that the wko files stopped appearing at the Cyclingpeaks site for Vandevelde and Voigt from stage 11.

I suspect this has a lot more to do with

1) the difficulty in getting good data via transmission to the SRM vehicle when in the mountains;

2) the possible refusal of some riders to carry even an extra ounce of weight up said mountains, and/or

3) the generally increased level of stress (for all parties) during these tough, and critical, stages.

Regarding the latter, I know that when Asker Jeukendrup was Rabobank's nutritional consultant, he'd still only travel with the team during the mountain stages, as that was when his help was thought to be most needed...

 

[WarrenG]

That's up to you, but at least you have a number to compare for those two rides. Without the PM all you have is "I could hold his wheel one day, but not the other," so the number of variables to consider is doubled, since they all affect the other guy's ride as well.


Without objective data, what trends do they have to look at?

Do you really think a good rider doesn't know the difference in how they feel doing 350 watts vs. 380 watts or more? And if you had the number, what would you do with it? 380 was a good day? Yeah, and so what. Do you change training because of that, or because it was only 350? Do you race differently because of a number? Why would you if you went as hard as you could both days? Or you knew you held back a little on one of those days. Don't you think the rider knows when they are having a good day or a bad day, and what could the numbers tell them about it that they don't already know? And how would any of those numbers change their preparation or their tactics?

They don't race for a power number. They race to compete with other riders. The number doesn't matter and the numbers will change from day to day as it will for the other riders in the race. Training is intended to get the best result, not the best number. Plan the training around that. Gauge your progress during training with your numbers, but gauge your progress during races by looking at how you perform during races-the results.

When you've trained for a few years, and done 50+ races, you'll learn about the answers to these questions. As much as you would like to objectively quantify as much as possible, you'll learn why this is not only impossible to do well, but also a distraction from what your body can tell you when you're not distracted by your PM.

What do you often hear from riders during a really hard time trial or escape? That they didn't want splits, or any other distractions. They just wanted to focus on what their body was telling them.

 

[acoggan]

When you've trained for a few years, and done 50+ races, you'll learn about the answers to these questions. As much as you would like to objectively quantify as much as possible, you'll learn why this is not only impossible to do well, but also a distraction from what your body can tell you when you're not distracted by your PM.

I started riding in 1974, racing in 1975, and have pinned on a number >500 times. Yet, I find the data provided by a powermeter very useful, in part because it provides an objective measurement against which to compare "what my body is telling me".

 

[acoggan]

What do you often hear from riders during a really hard time trial or escape? That they didn't want splits, or any other distractions. They just wanted to focus on what their body was telling them.

Elite track cyclists who must also carefully modulate their effort (i.e., pursuiters) practically always want time splits. This isn't just due to the duration of the event, either, as those going after the hour record always (with one exception that I can think of) ride to a carefully-planned schedule.

When racing the clock (e.g., in a record attempt), elite distance runners will also choose to have objective, external feedback regarding their performance, in the form of a pacer whose job is to run the initial laps at a specific pace.

Elite swimmers sometimes train using a series of lights on the bottom of the pool, which sequentially light up to provide an external reference against which the athlete can compare their performance in "real time". I don't think it is legal to use these devices in competition, but if it were I bet that, e.g., those swimming the 1500 m would use them.

 

[WarrenG]

I started riding in 1974, racing in 1975, and have pinned on a number >500 times. Yet, I find the data provided by a powermeter very useful, in part because it provides an objective measurement against which to compare "what my body is telling me".

Since you claim to have associations with a pro team or two and AIS, and since Hamish wouldn't answer my question, why do you think the vast majority of riders at the top of the sport choose to race without a PM?

 

[WarrenG]

Elite track cyclists who must also carefully modulate their effort (i.e., pursuiters) practically always want time splits. This isn't just due to the duration of the event, either, as those going after the hour record always (with one exception that I can think of) ride to a carefully-planned schedule.

I've read and heard that some pursuiters can barely even see or hear any splits given to them during their most important events, and we have heard of many examples of riders racing without wanting splits, and/or achieving top performances without getting splits.

 

[acoggan]

Since you claim to have associations with a pro team or two and AIS, and since Hamish wouldn't answer my question, why do you think the vast majority of riders at the top of the sport choose to race without a PM?

Probably because they're simply not smart enough to realize the benefits to be gained by doing so.

 

[meandmybike]

Probably because they're simply not smart enough to realize the benefits to be gained by doing so.

To quote Floyd Landis: there are a lot of people in the peloton who could entertain themself just staring at a pillar.

 

[frenchyge]

Do you really think a good rider doesn't know the difference in how they feel doing 350 watts vs. 380 watts or more?

I think they know the difference between going moderate and going hard, but the only reason we have numbers to compare here is if they use a PM. Do I think they can feel that one effort is 8.6% greater than the other? No.

Don't you think the rider knows when they are having a good day or a bad day, and what could the numbers tell them about it that they don't already know?

No, I don't think they do. Except in a TT, if the other riders disappear from their wheel then they probably feel it was a good day. If the other guys disappear up the road, it was probably a bad day.

They don't race for a power number. They race to compete with other riders.

Exactly, and my point is: what conclusions can you draw when you beat a guy one day, and get beat the next. Did he crack or did you? Was he tired, or were you? Did he hold back, or did you? If you have a PM, you'll know, but if not, you won't.

The number doesn't matter and the numbers will change from day to day as it will for the other riders in the race. Training is intended to get the best result, not the best number. Plan the training around that. Gauge your progress during training with your numbers, but gauge your progress during races by looking at how you perform during races-the results.

I'm not sure why you're talking about training. I'm talking about assessing one's race performance.

As much as you would like to objectively quantify as much as possible, you'll learn why this is not only impossible to do well, but also a distraction from what your body can tell you when you're not distracted by your PM.

I'd agree that looking at a PM during the race may be of limited use if you already have a director yelling on your ear to encourage you forward.

 

[WarrenG]

if the other riders disappear from their wheel then they probably feel it was a good day. If the other guys disappear up the road, it was probably a bad day.

Comparing oneself over multiple races/days, not one or two races/days... Looking for trends to determine training needs and tactical possibilities.

Exactly, and my point is: what conclusions can you draw when you beat a guy one day, and get beat the next. Did he crack or did you? Was he tired, or were you? Did he hold back, or did you? If you have a PM, you'll know, but if not, you won't.

Do a bunch of races. Maybe then you'll understand.

I'm not sure why you're talking about training. I'm talking about assessing one's race performance.

Racing performance should be assessed on results and your performance relative to the other racers. There are no places listed for wattage numbers.

If you want to know about your racing strengths and weaknesses the answers are shown during the races, relative to your competition, if you pay attention and you know what to look for.

Then, if you notice trends, you will try to train accordingly, towards the racing results you seek. If you want to be good at bike racing you need to learn to think like a racer, like a competitor.