Racing with a Power Meter Redux:

[WarrenG]

Ah, that must exlain the huge drop-off in your performance from last year, when you had the following stellar results on the road:.

In 2005 I was working 60+ hours per week with my regular job plus getting our new home built-doing significant amounts of the work myself. I was exhausted almost every week. I missed lots of training and races. Many times I showed up to races really tired, and/or immediately after working. I did the best I could and had fun. I planned my training around doing well at nat's and worlds because it wasn't realistic given my circumstances to try to do well in criteriums where I lack talent, along with doing well at track nat's (1st, 3rd) and track worlds (4th, 7th, 12th). I had to pick my opportunities. Same for this year. My criterium results were better in 2004 but my aerobic abilities have improved since then. It will come together.

 

[Mansmind]

ummm...


I'm new to the discussion, but I've read all the posts. Why argue about it at all?

1. If you already have a power meter (regardless of type), why not race with it? (assuming it's on your racing wheel) There's not enough extra weight there to REALLY matter.

2. While I understand you can look at the next 10 guys in front of you (using 10 based on the results posted here) and know they're riding better than you in some particular area.. I would love to know for myself exactly HOW MUCH better, it would give me some idea of where I need to be power-wise. Something you can tell while training vs. "I need to be 10 places better" while racing, that much is obvious.

3. If you think it's crazy to use a PM while racing, then don't....I'm sure those that are competing with you won't complain. I doubt seriously they see you using one as a disadvantage.

 

[acoggan]

In 2005 I was working 60+ hours per week with my regular job plus getting our new home built-doing significant amounts of the work myself. I was exhausted almost every week. I missed lots of training and races. Many times I showed up to races really tired, and/or immediately after working. I did the best I could and had fun. I planned my training around doing well at nat's and worlds because it wasn't realistic given my circumstances to try to do well in criteriums where I lack talent, along with doing well at track nat's (1st, 3rd) and track worlds (4th, 7th, 12th). I had to pick my opportunities. Same for this year. My criterium results were better in 2004 but my aerobic abilities have improved since then. It will come together.

Ah yes, 2004 was a vintage year:

07/11/2004 - Albany Criterium - Criterium - Master - 45-99
5 Warren Geissert 45370 Alto Velo Racing Club

07/04/2004 - Davis Bike Club 4th of July Criterium - Criterium - Master - 45-99
5 Warren Geissert 45370 Alto Velo Racing Club

07/04/2004 - Davis Bike Club 4th of July Criterium - Criterium - Master - Master 1 - 35-99
30 Warren Geissert 45370 Alto Velo Racing Club

06/27/2004 - Burlingame Criterium - crit - Master - 45-99
10 Warren Geissert 45370 0.005 Alto Velo Racing Club

06/27/2004 - Burlingame Criterium - crit - Master - Master1 - 35-99
61 Warren Geissert 45370 0.005 Alto Velo Racing Club

06/12/2004 - Fremont Freewheelers Criterium - Criterium - Master - 45-99
7 Warren Geissert 45370 Alto Velo Racing Club

06/05/2004 - ICCC Dash for Cash - Criterium - Master - 45-99
4 Warren Geissert 45370 Alto Velo Racing Club

06/05/2004 - ICCC Dash for Cash - Criterium - Cat 3 - Group2
34 Warren Geissert 45370 Alto Velo Racing Club

05/31/2004 - St Bikes Criterium - Criterium - Master - 45-99
7 Warren Geissert 45370 Alto Velo Racing Club

05/31/2004 - St Bikes Criterium - Criterium - Cat 3
20 Warren Geissert 45370 Alto Velo Racing Club

05/22/2004 - Save Mart Criterium - Criterium - Master - 45-99
4 Warren Geissert 45370 Alto Velo Racing Club

04/25/2004 - Wente Vineyards Classic 2004 - Criterium - Master - 45-99
7 Warren Geissert 45370 Alto Velo Racing Club

04/25/2004 - Wente Vineyards Classic 2004 - Criterium - Master - Master1 - 35-99
22 Warren Geissert 45370 Alto Velo Racing Club

04/03/2004 - Corporate Crit #1 - Criterium - Master - 45-99
19 Warren Geissert 45370 Alto Velo Racing Club

03/20/2004 - Madera County Stage Race - Stage Race - Master - 45-99
37 Warren Geissert 45370 Alto Velo Racing Club

02/08/2004 - Cherry Pie Criterum - Criterium - Master - 45-99
26 Warren Geissert 0 Alto Velo Racing Club

So tell us, Warren: have you ever won a race on the road? Since most races end in field sprints and sprinting is obviously your forte, one would assume that you'd be winning right, left, and center. I mean, after all if you ever ventured out of your neck of the woods you'd "...expect to do better since the level of competition is lower."

 

[WarrenG]

Maybe a more relevant point re: using others' performance to gauge one's own, is that you Warren, basically race against the same people. Judging from the results, the 45+ crits (and RR's) in NorCal feature a cast of the same players.

IIRC, you're Cat 3 on the road and I would wager you'd have a difficult time using competitors' results to rate your own performance in the 3's, given the fact that there is a steady stream of new people coming through - some win everything they enter and move on, some are total non-factors. How does this reflect on your performance?

The performance of the cat 3's doesn't change much from race to race, nor year to year. Yes, riders come and go, but the general level of the races doesn't change much. It does make it challenging to learn who to follow in attacks and breaks because you may not have seen them around long enough to know them well, but by the time somebody gets really good in the 3's they're upgrading before long. A few exceptional racers now and then shouldn't change your expectations unless you're trying to match them. You race against the pack, the swarm that is cat 3, or 45+, or cat 1,2 pro...

I dunno, I just don't get it - why *not* use a PM while racing? Why not use all the tools - results, RPE, HR, PM, diaries that track nutrition and recount tactics, whatever the hell you can get your hands on,?

If you think there's no cost or distraction to you from using your PM in a race then go for it. But a key is not letting its data distract you from what could be more important information, or distract you away from performing better than you might expect to.

Do you spend more time looking at power files than you spend reading, talking, watching, and learning about training?

 

[WarrenG]

So tell us, Warren: have you ever won a race on the road? ."

Yes. Many. I was a cat 4 on the road for 3 races before I upgraded. Since I came to NorCal it's been much more difficult. In the masters races there is much less sitting around waiting for the sprint like I saw, and still see on the east coast.

Since most races end in field sprints and sprinting is obviously your forte, one would assume that you'd be winning right, left, and center. ."

I can think of only one guy in my age group in the entire US who is good at match sprinting, criteriums and points races. There are only two guys in my age group at the world championships who are good at sprinting and the points race. I'm trying to get there but it's difficult.

 

[acoggan]

Yes. Many. I was a cat 4 on the road for 3 races before I upgraded. Since I came to NorCal it's been much more difficult.

Obviously.

In the masters races there is much less sitting around waiting for the sprint like I saw, and still see on the east coast.

Yeah, lots of wheel-sucking on the east coast...that's why I could never win any races in the Mid-Atlantic region.

 

[acoggan]

Do you spend more time looking at power files than you spend reading, talking, watching, and learning about training?

No.

(BTW, Warren, did you get that message from Jim Miller updating everyone on his new email address?)

 

[peterpen]

If you think there's no cost or distraction to you from using your PM in a race then go for it. But a key is not letting its data distract you from what could be more important information, or distract you away from performing better than you might expect to.

Do you spend more time looking at power files than you spend reading, talking, watching, and learning about training?

OK, we're in agreement on this.

I use my PM in races primarily for post-race info - to quantitatively see what the work was like and toward building a 'library' of data so I can see how I (hopefully) improve year after year on the same course. *During* the race, I'll rarely check the PM figures, and if I do they're considered a minor factor of many I'm tracking (RPE, how other people are suffering, what tactics are in play, blahblah - all the fun part of racing!) TT's might be a different story, but a PM is of limited *immediate* use during a RR and I want to see what I can do, not limit myself to what I can do in training.

I actually tend to only look at individual files after each workout or race and my written notes often take longer than any 'number crunching.' The PM is a fun and very useful tool, but I try not to geek *too* hard on it.

 

[WarrenG]

...my written notes often take longer than any 'number crunching.' The PM is a fun and very useful tool, but I try not to geek *too* hard on it.

Very good.

Good luck at CalCup. Should be fun times for you this year.

 

[fergie]

Since you claim to have associations with a pro team or two and AIS, and since Hamish wouldn't answer my question, why do you think the vast majority of riders at the top of the sport choose to race without a PM?

Competitive advantage dude.

I won the bet and won't be buying lunch all this week

Hamish Ferguson
Bagel Hound

 

[WarrenG]

Originally Posted by WarrenG
Do you really think, with all the money, technology, and expertise available to good riders that they should be able to do what you propose? And since we know they can't, why is that?

I am currently a professional in the health care industry (medical device) and used to be in the auto industry. I constantly see professionals (including surgeon physicians) not following best practices and not following the advice of experts in running their businesses, even though the claim to be (and some probably even believe the are).

Why should I think that the pro-cycling world is any different?

Given your perspective I can see why you'd have that point of view. I'm also sure that some (not all) surgeons use the best tools available and do a good job of learning and using the improvements that come along. I've seen this for myself.

In the case of the cyclists, the riders are using a powermeter in their daily training, apparently because they see the value in that, but on race day they don't see the value in having the PM on their bike.

Relating that back to your profession/industry, do you think a surgeon who employs the best tools for all of their average daily/weekly operations would then chose to not use those tools for their most complex operations?

 

[acoggan]

do you think a surgeon who employs the best tools for all of their average daily/weekly operations would then chose to not use those tools for their most complex operations?

Bad analogy: I doubt very many surgeons go into the operating room thinking "well, this isn't one of my A events (stages?), so I'm not going kill myself trying for a good result".

 

[WarrenG]

Bad analogy: I doubt very many surgeons go into the operating room thinking "well, this isn't one of my A events (stages?), so I'm not going kill myself trying for a good result".

The analogy is not perfect in every way and it does not need to be. But you (should) already know that.

 

[musher]

The analogy is not perfect in every way and it does not need to be. But you (should) already know that.

Hi, WarrenG, are those guys giving you a hard time , i raced in Eastern France in 1970 to 80 and stopped for 23 + yrs., moved to Wa & started racing 4 yrs ago . Racing is a complex and alway evolving sport. Everybody has different goals,different ways of training or racing. There is no perfect way of training or racing and not just one way . acoggan and WarrenG ARE A GOOD EXAMPLES, different style, ideas of training and racing , both succesfull . Let's be honest here. It takes a lots of hard work , dedication & sacrifice to race ,every one that races thinks Attack, Chase & Winning the race. I think that WarrenG has A POINT. A PM. for a crti. is not a very useful tool, you have to keep your eyes on the riders/wheels /etc... and not on your PM , just ride harder & harder .I started to train with a PM last Sept; it is a great tool with which to train and race. It has help me to focus and improve a lot but no matter how many Watts you can produce on a long climb. If you can't keep up with the competition you are gone .Racing with a PM will tell me where & how much to improve, with out it it's a guessing game; was it 380 watts or 420 w. ? hmmm, felt like 380 watts you don't know ,when racing hard, your legs are tired it's difficult to know how many watts you where producing . Training with a PM & not racing with it , i see it as lost info or missing the big picture . In a 80 or 100 miles st. race it's a great tool to rely on in a breakaway or chasing. i can gauge/ monitor my power & energy with out guessing . Winners never quit & quitters never win Any way, i enjoy reading your messages, keep up the training & have fun.