radial wheel trueing??

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by G.Daniels, Apr 8, 2003.

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  1. G.Daniels

    G.Daniels Guest

    does the wheelsmith approach trueing a radially lumpy rim but laterally acceptable rim in a
    different mannner than the inverse?
     
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  2. datakoll<< does the wheelsmith approach trueing a radially lumpy rim but laterally acceptable rim in
    a different mannner than the inverse?

    ????

    Get the rim round before it is at full tension.

    Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
     
  3. David Ornee

    David Ornee Guest

    "g.daniels" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > does the wheelsmith approach trueing a radially lumpy rim but laterally acceptable rim in a
    > different mannner than the inverse?

    From their site at URL http://www.wheelsmith.com/page4.html

    "Wheelsmith's wheelbuilding philosophy emphasizes strength and durability, and the key is high,
    uniform spoke tension. Spoke tension is the most difficult and elusive aspect of wheelbuilding. It
    is the characteristic of the wheel most difficult to evaluate, yet the most critical to its
    performance. This approach to wheelbuilding, based on combining both art and science, and focusing
    on tension rather than cosmetic trueness, was pioneered by Wheelsmith and remains at the
    foundation of our process. Cosmetic trueness can actually come at the expense of a wheel's
    strength because it can result in unbalanced tension. So do not be misled by some builders' claims
    about trueness, because what really matters is not how true a wheel is now, but how true it is
    1,000 miles from now."

    Tension is a very important element in wheel durability. I can speak for my experience and what I
    have learned from reading more experienced and those that approach from an engineering base ("the
    Bicycle Wheel" by Jobst Brandt). Most new rims will allow you to get high and even tension while
    maintaining lateral and acceptable radial true. Most experienced wheel builders will adjust for the
    best tension balance and lateral true, while using radial to make up for the irregularities in the
    rim. The builder's tolerance for imperfections in radial true is usually under 0.5 mm from "peak" to
    "valley". David Ornee, Western Springs, IL
     
  4. "g.daniels" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > does the wheelsmith approach trueing a radially lumpy rim but laterally acceptable rim in a
    > different mannner than the inverse?

    No! Cocker Spaniel dumpling favourable windy chicken wings and therefore never.
     
  5. Jobst Brandt

    Jobst Brandt Guest

    David Ornee <[email protected]> writes:

    >> does the Wheelsmith approach truing a radially lumpy rim but laterally acceptable rim in a
    >> different manner than the inverse?

    > From their site at URL http://www.wheelsmith.com/page4.html

    > "Wheelsmith's wheelbuilding philosophy emphasizes strength and durability, and the key is high,
    > uniform spoke tension. Spoke tension is the most difficult and elusive aspect of wheelbuilding. It
    > is the characteristic of the wheel most difficult to evaluate, yet the most critical to its
    > performance. This approach to wheelbuilding, based on combining both art and science, and focusing
    > on tension rather than cosmetic trueness, was pioneered by Wheelsmith and remains at the
    > foundation of our process. Cosmetic trueness can actually come at the expense of a wheel's
    > strength because it can result in unbalanced tension. So do not be misled by some builders' claims
    > about trueness, because what really matters is not how true a wheel is now, but how true it is
    > 1,000 miles from now."

    > Tension is a very important element in wheel durability. I can speak for my experience and what I
    > have learned from reading more experienced and those that approach from an engineering base ("the
    > Bicycle Wheel" by Jobst Brandt). Most new rims will allow you to get high and even tension while
    > maintaining lateral and acceptable radial true. Most experienced wheel builders will adjust for
    > the best tension balance and lateral true, while using radial to make up for the irregularities in
    > the rim. The builder's tolerance for imperfections in radial true is usually under 0.5 mm from
    > "peak" to "valley".

    That's all nice to hear but there is a fly in the ointment. A wheel that is true and does not have
    uniform tension is a loose wheel. As most wheel builders know, when the spokes get up to proper
    tension, THEY determine how true the wheel is, not the rim, that otherwise covers for tension
    disparities. Wheels are often built too loosely to not disturb the original trueness of the rim. If
    the tensioned wheel is fairly true, yet does not have uniformly tensioned spokes, the spokes are
    too loose.

    Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA
     
  6. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    > "g.daniels" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]...
    > > does the wheelsmith approach trueing a radially lumpy rim but laterally acceptable rim in a
    > > different mannner than the inverse?

    "Gearóid Ó Laoi, Garry Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > No! Cocker Spaniel dumpling favourable windy chicken wings and therefore never.

    Did you compose that yourself or did you use the "g.daniels Berlitz" phrasebook?

    --
    Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971
     
  7. G.Daniels

    G.Daniels Guest

    ok-the approach are small adjustments at low torques as with the lateral approach. when does the
    radial tune occur in relation to the lateral, as in sequence. visualize the lateral and radial angle
    out of whack and then pulling those angles straight or true for the design, like s.brown's
    diagrams.then where's the sequence technique in that visualization? how does the wheel moron get the
    most effective procedure??? the articulation or technical writing description for the well handed
    mechanic may involve blowing a few brain cells? but it's in there. por favor. my skill, hahaha, at
    radial truing does not understand JB's even torqueness. that's way beyond what i arrive at when the
    wheel is true/durable. the ^%^&*^% problem is too much time is consumed.
     
  8. S. Anderson

    S. Anderson Guest

    "g.daniels" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > ok-the approach are small adjustments at low torques as with the lateral approach. when does the
    > radial tune occur in relation to the lateral, as in sequence. visualize the lateral and radial
    > angle out of whack and then pulling those angles straight or true for the design, like s.brown's
    > diagrams.then where's the sequence technique in that visualization? how does the wheel moron get
    > the most effective procedure??? the articulation or technical writing description for the well
    > handed mechanic may involve blowing a few brain cells? but it's in there. por favor. my skill,
    > hahaha, at radial truing does not understand JB's even torqueness. that's way beyond what i arrive
    > at when the wheel is true/durable. the ^%^&*^% problem is too much time is consumed.

    Honestly, I spend very little time on radial trueness. I tension all spokes evenly to the desired
    tension level, stress-relieve and check trueness. Generally, at this point, the wheel is not
    laterally true but has a nice slow wobble that is easy to true out with minimal adjustment. I true
    laterally and check for radial once this is done. Generally I don't have many issues with radial
    trueness with the exception of the wheel seam. I do radial true after the lateral but always pay
    attention to the spoke tension in the wheel as you true! You don't want to loosen too much or you
    will have too little tension and a weak wheel. Generally, if you have to compromise trueness for
    tension, better to compromise on radial trueness as it's less noticeable.

    Good Luck,

    Scott..
     
  9. David Ornee

    David Ornee Guest

    <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > David Ornee <[email protected]> writes:
    >
    > >> does the Wheelsmith approach truing a radially lumpy rim but laterally acceptable rim in a
    > >> different manner than the inverse?
    >
    > > From their site at URL http://www.wheelsmith.com/page4.html
    >
    > > "Wheelsmith's wheelbuilding philosophy emphasizes strength and durability, and the key is high,
    > > uniform spoke tension. Spoke tension is the most difficult and elusive aspect of wheelbuilding.
    > > It is the characteristic of the wheel most difficult to evaluate, yet the most critical to its
    > > performance. This approach to wheelbuilding, based on combining both art and science, and
    > > focusing on tension rather than cosmetic trueness, was pioneered by Wheelsmith and remains at
    > > the foundation of our process. Cosmetic trueness can actually come at the expense of a wheel's
    > > strength because it can result in unbalanced tension. So do not be misled by some builders'
    > > claims about trueness, because what really matters is not how true a wheel is now, but how true
    > > it is 1,000 miles from now."
    >
    > > Tension is a very important element in wheel durability. I can speak for my experience and what
    > > I have learned from reading more experienced and those that approach from an engineering base
    > > ("the Bicycle Wheel" by Jobst Brandt). Most new rims will allow you to get high and even tension
    > > while maintaining lateral and acceptable radial true. Most experienced wheel builders will
    > > adjust for the best tension balance and lateral true, while using radial to make up for the
    > > irregularities in the rim. The builder's tolerance for imperfections in radial true is usually
    > > under 0.5 mm from "peak" to "valley".
    >
    > That's all nice to hear but there is a fly in the ointment. A wheel that is true and does not have
    > uniform tension is a loose wheel. As most wheel builders know, when the spokes get up to proper
    > tension, THEY determine how true the wheel is, not the rim, that otherwise covers for tension
    > disparities. Wheels are often built too loosely to not disturb the original trueness of the rim.
    > If the tensioned wheel is fairly true, yet does not have uniformly tensioned spokes, the spokes
    > are too loose.
    >
    > Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA

    Very interesting! I have limited experience of only building 250 wheels and working on 360 that
    others have built. I always try to follow the methods described in the Jobst Brandt book: "the
    Bicycle Wheel". However, I have thrown out 5 or 6 rims because I was not able to get the spokes at
    uniform high tension and have the wheel true. I thought it was the rim's fault. I assumed there was
    some damage or weakness in the rim when I couldn't get uniform high tension and true at the same
    time. I tension for minimum of 100 kgf on spokes of the front wheel. I have used 170 kgf on Mavic
    D521 and T520 front spokes. Both these examples built very true and within 5% of tension balance.
    David Ornee, Western Springs, IL
     
  10. Jobst Brandt

    Jobst Brandt Guest

    David Ornee writes:

    > Very interesting!

    > I have limited experience of only building 250 wheels and working on 360 that others have built. I
    > always try to follow the methods described in the Jobst Brandt book: "the Bicycle Wheel".

    > However, I have thrown out 5 or 6 rims because I was not able to get the spokes at uniform high
    > tension and have the wheel true. I thought it was the rim's fault. I assumed there was some damage
    > or weakness in the rim when I couldn't get uniform high tension and true at the same time.

    Not all rims are originally true and some become wobbly during initial tightening if too much
    tension is added in a single pass. Such wheels need forceful straightening as is described in the
    book you cite. If the final wheel is unevenly tensioned yet true, some of this "straightening needs
    to be undertaken to get the wheel to uniform tension, or its alignment will drift that way with use.

    > I tension for minimum of 100 kgf on spokes of the front wheel. I have used 170 kgf on Mavic D521
    > and T520 front spokes. Both these examples built very true and within 5% of tension balance.

    Well, that depends on the rim and number of spokes, so I can't make any blanket statement on how
    tight spokes need to be. I'm sure you must have seen that in the book.

    Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA
     
  11. David Ornee

    David Ornee Guest

    <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
    > David Ornee writes:
    >
    > > Very interesting!
    >
    > > I have limited experience of only building 250 wheels and working on 360 that others have built.
    > > I always try to follow the methods described in the Jobst Brandt book: "the Bicycle Wheel".
    >
    > > However, I have thrown out 5 or 6 rims because I was not able to get the spokes at uniform
    > > high tension and have the wheel true. I thought it was the rim's fault. I assumed there was
    > > some damage or weakness in the rim when I couldn't get uniform high tension and true at the
    > > same time.
    >
    > Not all rims are originally true and some become wobbly during initial tightening if too much
    > tension is added in a single pass. Such wheels need forceful straightening as is described in the
    > book you cite. If the final wheel is unevenly tensioned yet true, some of this "straightening
    > needs to be undertaken to get the wheel to uniform tension, or its alignment will drift that way
    > with use.
    >
    > > I tension for minimum of 100 kgf on spokes of the front wheel. I have used 170 kgf on Mavic D521
    > > and T520 front spokes. Both these examples built very true and within 5% of tension balance.
    >
    > Well, that depends on the rim and number of spokes, so I can't make any blanket statement on how
    > tight spokes need to be. I'm sure you must have seen that in the book.
    >
    > Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA

    Yes, I read those sections of the book. I have tried forceful straightening. I don't try to add too
    much tension in a single pass. The rims I gave up on were about 1% of the total samples I dealt
    with. This 1% doesn't include ones where there were flaws that became apparent as I stress relieved
    the wheels, like eyelets pulling out. It certainly could be that my implementations of the
    techniques mentioned in "the book" were flawed. I hope I will learn more with continued efforts and
    learning. However, I still think that there are rims that may be weak/flawed from the manufacturer
    that despite best methods and procedures won't allow a true wheel with high even tension. I take no
    issues with the material, methods, or procedures in "the book". I agree with them and use them
    regularly. My point is that there seems to me to be a small percentage of rims that just won't true
    when I think I am following all the methods and procedures in "the book". The rims I am speaking of
    were current production from well respected manufacturers from France and Italy. I used the same
    models from the same manufactures, with the same spokes, hubs, and procedures and had satisfactory
    results. I wasn't attempting to make blanket statements about tension. I was just asserting the fact
    that I don't build wheels with too low of tension.

    David Ornee, Western Springs, IL
     
  12. G.Daniels

    G.Daniels Guest

    so the wheel in question suffered a statistical cluster phenomena with 3 broken spokes and ten
    whizzed nipples giving pronounced kangaroo hop with, off course all three spares down for
    reassembley. so, in keeping with current theory, i ignored the lateral and proceeded to adjust the
    radial. i turn the bike upside down and work from the rear reaching over to the front betweennthe
    pads or bolts therein but(a huge pain in the *&^&*&^%)but giving up on the lateral i sat beside the
    pads and judged the lateral only as the rim being more or less centered between the pads andwith
    nipples loose eyeballed(having lost the felt pen) the main rim depression and left those nipples
    loose,tigthening 1/2 turn all other nipples with only a rough lateral adjustment-which is a good way
    not to obsess laterally,don't look a it too closely.
    1/2 turns about 5-6 rounds and the depressed area stiffened up enough to now loosen those nipples
    and go around again 3-4 times tightening with 1/4 loosening turns at the depressed area. and
    slight lateral adjustments to keep the wheel turning between pads. amazing how the wheel as a
    torsional structure comes alive at this pint with some(but not all) nipples 'erking' towards
    torque. then to the bikes rear and to laterally true. then back to the side checking radial
    trueness again and for the final assault toward running torque with tighten beyond the
    depression.loosen the depression(cawsed by a stiff wind gust blowing the bike into a nice amacite
    one side, jagged concrete impact side,pothole the only pothole within 300 yards) tighten to
    running torque ahshit several depression now appeared as torque approached giving the necessity to
    micro adjust each new depression very carefully trying to avoid avoid avoid a bannana twist with
    tightening on the rolloff points at depression's edge at six spoke intervals, careful to loosen
    one tighten the next until half mad i ran screaming into the field... loosening the depressions. 3
    hours.with nipple replacement ect.??? the depression loosened up this morning giving rise to some
    thoughts on blue loctite around the depression next time if i don't hacksaw the little*&&^% before
    then. is this congruent with current reality??
     
  13. H. Guy

    H. Guy Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (g.daniels) wrote:

    > so the wheel in question suffered a statistical cluster phenomena with 3 broken spokes and ten
    > whizzed nipples giving pronounced kangaroo hop with, off course all three spares down for
    > reassembley.

    > i turn the bike upside down and work from the rear reaching over to the front betweennthe pads or
    > bolts therein but(a huge pain in the *&^&*&^%)but giving up on the lateral i sat beside the pads
    > and judged the lateral only as the rim being more or less centered between the pads andwith
    > nipples loose eyeballed(having lost the felt pen) the

    > amazing how the wheel as a torsional structure comes alive at this pint with some(but not all)
    > nipples 'erking' towards torque.

    > depression.loosen the depression(cawsed by a stiff wind gust blowing the bike into a nice amacite
    > one side, jagged concrete impact side,pothole the only pothole within 300 yards) tighten to
    > running torque ahshit several depression now appeared as torque approached giving the necessity to
    > micro adjust each new depression very carefully trying to avoid avoid avoid a bannana twist with
    > tightening

    > is this congruent with current reality??

    no. not even close.
     
  14. G.Daniels

    G.Daniels Guest

    ok. radial wheel trueing a guild secret!!! ach du!!! i forgot an important step. ouch. after
    twisting the unbent rim nipples to the point where the untwisted bent nipples gained enough torque
    to allow the mech to consider riding on the rim and then untwisting the previously untwisted
    depressed area nipples(amuzi heads to the field?-this is a korean translation-I could do it
    backwards?) to give the rim a generally round character, the mech then marked the opposite side to
    that bent area and looosened those nipples a 1/2 turn then a full turn giving the depressed
    area-bent rim nipples/spokes yet more leeway to relax and unbend with out ever tightening them-just
    allowing for the entire congruent torsion structure to head toward the max design area. the
    untightening of the opposite side may be heresy? as unscrewing those nipple/spokes may give an
    elliptical/eggshape-maybe giving the seemingly(actually more minor dents)random mutation to numerous
    depressed areas rather than the Big One the mech started out to eliminate but unscrewing the
    opposite side does get it on the road again.
     
  15. Ted Bennett

    Ted Bennett Guest

    [email protected] (g.daniels) wrote:

    > ok. radial wheel trueing a guild secret!!! ach du!!! i forgot an important step. ouch. after
    > twisting the unbent rim nipples to the point where the untwisted bent nipples gained enough torque
    > to allow the mech to consider riding on the rim and then untwisting the previously untwisted
    > depressed area nipples(amuzi heads to the field?-this is a korean translation-I could do it
    > backwards?) to give the rim a generally round character, the mech then marked the opposite side to
    > that bent area and looosened those nipples a 1/2 turn then a full turn giving the depressed
    > area-bent rim nipples/spokes yet more leeway to relax and unbend with out ever tightening
    > them-just allowing for the entire congruent torsion structure to head toward the max design area.
    > the untightening of the opposite side may be heresy? as unscrewing those nipple/spokes may give an
    > elliptical/eggshape-maybe giving the seemingly(actually more minor dents)random mutation to
    > numerous depressed areas rather than the Big One the mech started out to eliminate but unscrewing
    > the opposite side does get it on the road again.

    I wonder if g.daniels has been huffing a lot of solvents?

    Anyway, I sure would like to have some sort of translator.

    --
    Ted Bennett Portland OR
     
  16. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    "g.daniels" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]...
    > ok. radial wheel trueing a guild secret!!! ach du!!! i forgot an important step. ouch. after
    > twisting the unbent rim nipples to the point where the untwisted bent nipples gained enough torque
    > to allow the mech to consider riding on the rim and then untwisting the previously untwisted
    > depressed area nipples(amuzi heads to the field?-this is a korean translation-I could do it
    > backwards?) to give the rim a generally round character, the mech then marked the opposite side to
    > that bent area and looosened those nipples a 1/2 turn then a full turn giving the depressed
    > area-bent rim nipples/spokes yet more leeway to relax and unbend with out ever tightening
    > them-just allowing for the entire congruent torsion structure to head toward the max design area.
    > the untightening of the opposite side may be heresy? as unscrewing those nipple/spokes may give an
    > elliptical/eggshape-maybe giving the seemingly(actually more minor dents)random mutation to
    > numerous depressed areas rather than the Big One the mech started out to eliminate but unscrewing
    > the opposite side does get it on the road again.

    At the risk of implying things which you didn't actually write and presuming to understand your
    post, I think you are saying that you were having difficulty getting your wheel round.

    And it appears you asked someone else to have a go at it. And I think you got the impression that he
    improved the roundness of your wheel by slacking spokes where the rim was too close to the hub and
    tensioning the spokes at a point opposite.

    In my opinion, that may have some effect but it only approximates the correct response which is to
    tension _all_ the spokes outside the zone where the rim is too close to the hub and/or slack the
    area that's too close.

    As Jobst mentioned last week, it may be necessary to actually bend a section of the rim out away
    from the hub if the technique above isn't sufficient. Where a rim has been dropped before building,
    or where a wheel has been smacked such that there's a flat spot, and where normal variance of spoke
    tension isn't enough to get the rim round, I use a rim puller:
    http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/RIMTRUE.JPG

    Anyway, the idea is to get more tension in the wheel except where there's a flat spot. If the flat
    spot spans, say, six spokes, I would tighten 26 or at least 24 spokes ( 32h wheel), not just a few
    opposite the problem area.

    --
    Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971
     
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