Radical, hot, sexy ATB wheel design methods! Must see, L@@K!

[Michael Doleman]

Since my origianl post received no feedback, I thought I'd try again with a different subject line.

I've gotten pretty good at building wheels with the good ol' 32 or 36 spoke 3X design, and want to
try something different for a nice set of ATB wheels.

I have picked-up bits and pieces of information suggesting (to my impressionable mind) that much
strength can be gained by orienting spokes on the drive side of the rear wheel with all the
heads facing
in.

This design makes a fair amount of sense to me, but I don't feel I have enough information to
actually set about building such a wheel.

Does anyone have information, opinions, and/or recommendations on the building of this sort of
wheel, or on ATB wheel design methods in general?

In case it matters much, I am planning on the use of Phil Wood hubs, Sun CR-18 rims, and DT Swiss
14/15/14 spokes.

Michael Doleman, Sacramento, CA

 

[Huw Pritchard]

On Fri, 17 Jan 2003 08:32:08 +0000, Michael Doleman did issue forth:

> I have picked-up bits and pieces of information suggesting (to my impressionable mind) that much
> strength can be gained by orienting spokes on the drive side of the rear wheel with all the heads
> facing in.

<snip>

> Does anyone have information, opinions, and/or recommendations on the building of this sort of
> wheel, or on ATB wheel design methods in general?

It can't be done; Not unless you're going to build a radial wheel anyway. Just for laughs, I tried
it with a three cross pattern.

What of course happens is that the first crossing of the spokes (at the flange) happens within a few
mm of the spoke nipple. This isn't normally a problem as they're coming out from different sides of
the flange. Put everything on the same side of the flange and one of the spokes has to be bent to go
over the other.

In order to get over this, you'd need to make half the spokes a bit longer, and I doubt that the
spoke line that you'd get at the flange would make for a very strong wheel.

--
Huw Pritchard | Replace bounce with huw | to reply by mail | www.secretworldgovernment.org

 

[Mike S.]

If you do a search, there was some mention about "speed lacing" either here or on r.b.racing
recently. I don't remember the conclusion, but there was a link to a picture.

Mike "Michael Doleman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Since my origianl post received no feedback, I thought I'd try again with a different
> subject line.
>
> I've gotten pretty good at building wheels with the good ol' 32 or 36 spoke 3X design, and want to
> try something different for a nice set of ATB wheels.
>
> I have picked-up bits and pieces of information suggesting (to my impressionable mind) that much
> strength can be gained by orienting spokes on the drive side of the rear wheel with all the
> heads facing
> in.
>
> This design makes a fair amount of sense to me, but I don't feel I have enough information to
> actually set about building such a wheel.
>
> Does anyone have information, opinions, and/or recommendations on the building of this sort of
> wheel, or on ATB wheel design methods in general?
>
> In case it matters much, I am planning on the use of Phil Wood hubs, Sun CR-18 rims, and DT Swiss
> 14/15/14 spokes.
>
> Michael Doleman, Sacramento, CA

 

[Michael Dart]

"Huw Pritchard" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 17 Jan 2003 08:32:08 +0000, Michael Doleman did issue forth:
>
> > I have picked-up bits and pieces of information suggesting (to my impressionable mind) that much
> > strength can be gained by orienting spokes on the drive side of the rear wheel with all the
> > heads facing in.
>
> <snip>
>
> > Does anyone have information, opinions, and/or recommendations on the building of this sort of
> > wheel, or on ATB wheel design methods in general?
>
> It can't be done; Not unless you're going to build a radial wheel anyway. Just for laughs, I tried
> it with a three cross pattern.
>
> What of course happens is that the first crossing of the spokes (at the flange) happens within a
> few mm of the spoke nipple. This isn't normally a problem as they're coming out from different
> sides of the flange. Put everything on the same side of the flange and one of the spokes has to be
> bent to go over the other.
>
> In order to get over this, you'd need to make half the spokes a bit longer, and I doubt that the
> spoke line that you'd get at the flange would make for a very strong wheel.
>

These folks make BMX hubs that are designed to have all the spokes on the inside of the flange to
prevent them from being ground off doing tricks. http://treebicycleco.com the hub has a thicker
flange, recessed spoke head holes and a staggered hole pattern to allow crossing of spokes on the
same side of the flange. This won't help the Michael unless he want's to build it as a singlespeed,
but I just thought it was an interesting innovation.

Mike

 

[Sheldon Brown]

Ever see a Citr=F6en steering wheel?

Coquillage Complet Le Brun 78 Chevreuse, France

 

[Kinkycowboy]

On Fri, 17 Jan 2003 19:01:09 +0000, "Huw Pritchard"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Fri, 17 Jan 2003 08:32:08 +0000, Michael Doleman did issue forth:
>
>> I have picked-up bits and pieces of information suggesting (to my impressionable mind) that much
>> strength can be gained by orienting spokes on the drive side of the rear wheel with all the heads
>> facing in.
>
><snip>
>
>> Does anyone have information, opinions, and/or recommendations on the building of this sort of
>> wheel, or on ATB wheel design methods in general?
>
>It can't be done; Not unless you're going to build a radial wheel anyway. Just for laughs, I tried
>it with a three cross pattern.
>
>What of course happens is that the first crossing of the spokes (at the flange) happens within a
>few mm of the spoke nipple. This isn't normally a problem as they're coming out from different
>sides of the flange. Put everything on the same side of the flange and one of the spokes has to be
>bent to go over the other.
>
>In order to get over this, you'd need to make half the spokes a bit longer, and I doubt that the
>spoke line that you'd get at the flange would make for a very strong wheel.

My LBS used to build BMX wheels with normal hubs and all outbound spokes - not sure what crossing
pattern he was using, but they were way tough, built for guys doing really extreme vert stuff. This
was back in the mid eighties, so there are no web references, but I saw him put a wheel flat on the
floor and balance on it with his feet on diagonally opposite points on the rim.

Kinky Cowboy

*Your milage may vary Batteries not included May contain traces of nuts.

 

[Bluto]

"Huw Pritchard" <[email protected]> wrote:

Michael Doleman did issue forth:
>
> > I have picked-up bits and pieces of information suggesting (to my impressionable mind) that much
> > strength can be gained by orienting spokes on the drive side of the rear wheel with all the
> > heads facing in.
> ...
> > Does anyone have information, opinions, and/or recommendations on the building of this sort of
> > wheel, or on ATB wheel design methods in general?
>
> It can't be done; Not unless you're going to build a radial wheel anyway. Just for laughs, I tried
> it with a three cross pattern.
>
> What of course happens is that the first crossing of the spokes (at the flange) happens within a
> few mm of the spoke nipple. This isn't normally a problem as they're coming out from different
> sides of the flange. Put everything on the same side of the flange and one of the spokes has to be
> bent to go over the other.

So what? The spokes have to be bent to seat fully into the hub drillings too. I have built several
wheels in this way and they work fine, holding up as well or better than conventionally laced fronts
they've been paired with.

For tidier lacing in which the spokes lie alongside each other, spoke lengths can be mixed with one
length leading and the other trailing. Cross-5 and cross-3 lengths work well with 36 spoke wheels,
and cross-4 and cross-2 are good for 28 spoke wheels. No mix of lengths works well for 32 spoke
wheels, so they must overlap if laced all on one side of the flange.

> In order to get over this, you'd need to make half the spokes a bit longer, and I doubt that the
> spoke line that you'd get at the flange would make for a very strong wheel.

I've never had a lick of problems out of the wheels I've laced heads-in, which is far more than I
can say for the conventionally laced kind. Time will tell, but thus far it seems certain that
heads-in laced wheels are at least as reliable as the usual kind.

The only certain tradeoff I have observed is the increased amount of unlacing that might be required
to replace a broken spoke. But so far I've not broken a spoke in this type of wheel.

Chalo Colina

 

[Huw Pritchard]

On Fri, 17 Jan 2003 17:21:25 +0000, Michael Dart did issue forth:

> These folks make BMX hubs that are designed to have all the spokes on the inside of the flange to
> prevent them from being ground off doing tricks. http://treebicycleco.com the hub has a thicker
> flange, recessed spoke head holes and a staggered hole pattern to allow crossing of spokes on the
> same side of the flange. This won't help the Michael unless he want's to build it as a
> singlespeed, but I just thought it was an interesting innovation.

Coo! That is interesting, the picture of the wheel is justification in itself for going to look at
a BMX site.

--
Huw Pritchard | Replace bounce with huw | to reply by mail | www.secretworldgovernment.org

 

[Sheldon Brown]

A smart-ass wrote:

>>Ever see a Citr=F6en steering wheel?
>>
>>Coquillage Complet Le Brun 78 Chevreuse, France

John Everett wrote:

> La sorte avec le rai simple?

One spoke, one windshield wiper, Why would you want more?

Sheldon "Always Secretly Lusted For A Citr=F6en DS*" Brown

*"DS" is pronounced in French as "D=E9esse", i.e. "Goddess." +------------------------------------+
| France, France...if not for you, | the world would be alone! | --Victor Hugo |
+------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772
FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

 

[A Muzi]

> "Michael Dart" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > > > Does anyone have information, opinions, and/or recommendations on
the
> > > > building of this sort of wheel, or on ATB wheel design methods in general?
> > >
> > > It can't be done; Not unless you're going to build a radial wheel
anyway.
> > > Just for laughs, I tried it with a three cross pattern.
>
> ......the hub has a thicker flange, recessed spoke head
> > holes and a staggered hole pattern to allow crossing of spokes on the
same
> > side of the flange. This won't help the Michael unless he want's to
build
> > it as a singlespeed, but I just thought it was an interesting
innovation.

"dax" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> ...the OLD Shimano 600EX Adamas (early eighties, 6-sp cassette) has recessed spoke holes that
> allow various goofy spokings... but I don't know if the cassette column is removable/replacable
> w/something hyperglide... weird spokings are FUN - Ъ×

The Adamas cassette is stamped to the hub as I recall. But some early cassette hubs can accept a
modern HG body, there's no retaining bolt but they work anyway. I just did that on a 1976 hub on
Friday. The body falls away from the hub with the axle out.

Disassemble from the left side, withdraw the axle and all will be revealed.
--
Andrew Muzi http://www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1 April 1971

 

[Almost Fast]

Close! It's called "Race Lace". See http://speeddream.com/ and also http://www.winkelwheel.com used
to do them.

"Mike S." <mikeshaw@coxDOTnet> wrote in message news:<VF%[email protected]>...
> If you do a search, there was some mention about "speed lacing" either here or on r.b.racing
> recently. I don't remember the conclusion, but there was a link to a picture.
>
> Mike "Michael Doleman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Since my origianl post received no feedback, I thought I'd try again with a different
> > subject line.
> >
> > I've gotten pretty good at building wheels with the good ol' 32 or 36 spoke 3X design, and want
> > to try something different for a nice set of ATB wheels.
> >
> > I have picked-up bits and pieces of information suggesting (to my impressionable mind) that much
> > strength can be gained by orienting spokes on the drive side of the rear wheel with all the
> > heads facing
> > in.
> >
> > This design makes a fair amount of sense to me, but I don't feel I have enough information to
> > actually set about building such a wheel.
> >
> > Does anyone have information, opinions, and/or recommendations on the building of this sort of
> > wheel, or on ATB wheel design methods in general?
> >
> > In case it matters much, I am planning on the use of Phil Wood hubs, Sun CR-18 rims, and DT
> > Swiss 14/15/14 spokes.
> >
> > Michael Doleman, Sacramento, CA

 

[John Everett]

On Fri, 17 Jan 2003 23:43:34 GMT, Sheldon Brown <[email protected]> wrote:

>Ever see a Citröen steering wheel?
>
>Coquillage Complet Le Brun 78 Chevreuse, France

La sorte avec le rai simple?

jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net http://home.earthlink.net/~jeverett3

 

[Dax]

"Michael Dart" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...

> >
> > > Does anyone have information, opinions, and/or recommendations on the building of this sort of
> > > wheel, or on ATB wheel design methods in general?
> >
> > It can't be done; Not unless you're going to build a radial wheel anyway. Just for laughs, I
> > tried it with a three cross pattern.

......the hub has a thicker flange, recessed spoke head
> holes and a staggered hole pattern to allow crossing of spokes on the same side of the flange.
> This won't help the Michael unless he want's to build it as a singlespeed, but I just thought it
> was an interesting innovation.
>
> Mike

...the OLD Shimano 600EX Adamas (early eighties, 6-sp cassette) has recessed spoke holes that allow
various goofy spokings... but I don't know if the cassette column is removable/replacable
w/something hyperglide... weird spokings are FUN - Ъ×