RAGT Continues to win praise



C

Clovis Lark

Guest
Thanks to my blow by blow coverage of RAGT's heroic efforts to snag the
Lanterne Rouge in addition to their destruction of the rest of the field
in the team competition, Cycling News sees fit, as Johnny Come Lately to
join the praise:

RAGT Satisfied

The small French RAGT Semences-MG Rover team embodied the role of underdog
in this year's Tour de France, and though lacking in top ten results, team
director sportif Jean-Luc Jonrond remains pleased with the effort. RAGT
finished at the bottom the prize money total, but took consolation in
having eight riders finish the race, having lost only Eddy Seigneur to the
dreaded time delay in the mountains.

"Let’s be positive and not lose sight of the fact that eight riders made
it to the finish in Paris," Jonrond said. "Eight riders who were not sick
and who gritted their teeth and who managed on the most difficult days to
make it within the time limits.

"As with all the staff, I am pleased with the performances of Ludovic
Martin, Frédéric Finot and Sylvain Calzati," he added. "Looking back, I
think we came out of it better than we had expected to at the start."

Martin himself was pleased, particularly with his time trial effort on
Alpe d'Huez, where he finished 30th, four minutes behind stage winner
Lance Armstrong.

"I got off to a bad start," Martin explained. "I thought I’d be out of the
running in the first week because of my knee. I found the Pyrénées tough.
Of course, I’m pleased with the way things worked out for me on Alpe
d’Huez and my breakaway in the stage which finished in Le Grand-Bornand.
Overall, I’m pleased with my Tour where I showed that I had a potential
for the mountain stages."
 
Clovis Lark <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Thanks to my blow by blow coverage of RAGT's heroic efforts to snag the
> Lanterne Rouge in addition to their destruction of the rest of the field
> in the team competition, Cycling News sees fit, as Johnny Come Lately to
> join the praise:
>
> RAGT Satisfied
>


yeah, amazing. despite your blathering away about it for weeks they
still scooped you. maybe mocking a team once is thoughtful, but
dragging it on for weeks is about as welcome as a moldy energy bar
just before you get the bonk.
 
Richard Adams <[email protected]> wrote:
> Clovis Lark <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>> Thanks to my blow by blow coverage of RAGT's heroic efforts to snag the
>> Lanterne Rouge in addition to their destruction of the rest of the field
>> in the team competition, Cycling News sees fit, as Johnny Come Lately to
>> join the praise:
>>
>> RAGT Satisfied
>>
>

> yeah, amazing. despite your blathering away about it for weeks they
> still scooped you. maybe mocking a team once is thoughtful, but
> dragging it on for weeks is about as welcome as a moldy energy bar
> just before you get the bonk.

Glad you liked it! Cheers.
 
On 28 Jul 2004 09:33:12 -0700, [email protected] (Richard Adams) wrote:

>Clovis Lark <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>> Thanks to my blow by blow coverage of RAGT's heroic efforts to snag the
>> Lanterne Rouge in addition to their destruction of the rest of the field
>> in the team competition, Cycling News sees fit, as Johnny Come Lately to
>> join the praise:
>>
>> RAGT Satisfied
>>
>
>
>yeah, amazing. despite your blathering away about it for weeks they
>still scooped you. maybe mocking a team once is thoughtful, but
>dragging it on for weeks is about as welcome as a moldy energy bar
>just before you get the bonk.

Man, Clovis got it right. He saw through the shallowness and greed of the other
teams who let themselves be lured off the road by promises of podium girls and
fancy colored jerseys. He saw how RAGT loved their time on the bike and made it
last as long as possible.

Ron
 
RonSonic <[email protected]> wrote:
> On 28 Jul 2004 09:33:12 -0700, [email protected] (Richard Adams) wrote:

>>Clovis Lark <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>>> Thanks to my blow by blow coverage of RAGT's heroic efforts to snag the
>>> Lanterne Rouge in addition to their destruction of the rest of the field
>>> in the team competition, Cycling News sees fit, as Johnny Come Lately to
>>> join the praise:
>>>
>>> RAGT Satisfied
>>>
>>
>>
>>yeah, amazing. despite your blathering away about it for weeks they
>>still scooped you. maybe mocking a team once is thoughtful, but
>>dragging it on for weeks is about as welcome as a moldy energy bar
>>just before you get the bonk.

> Man, Clovis got it right. He saw through the shallowness and greed of
the other > teams who let themselves be lured off the road by promises of
podium girls and > fancy colored jerseys. He saw how RAGT loved their time
on the bike and made it > last as long as possible.

While it was indeed satire, the butt of the satire is the winners only
matter view. As I posted elsewhere, I challenged one complainer to ask
for a one on one race with Joly or Casper (can't remember whom) and see
who the winner was. Anyone who saw the interviews with Martin or Jean Luc
knows these guys took their race seriously. Except for Heulot's
misfortune, the team raced start to finish intact. Martin set the
standard up the Alpe until the top guns arrived. When RAGT placed all
those riders at the back of the standings in the final time, it served to
show how hard they had worked to stay in the race, that they had nothing
left. Those are true heros of sport.

Frank Shorter (former marathon champion), once commenting at the NY
Marathon, made this salient point. While the race, per usual, focused on
the leaders, he remarked that his admiration was for the average Joes and
Janes who would finish in 5-6 or hours. He couldn't imagine running that
long, or the dedication it must take just to see the finish line as a
triumph.

And then there was the fun of integrating the ludicrous (Armstrong's silly
marking of Simeoni, Lemond's self imposed high profile, Ullrich's
director's immature comments, Ferrari's orange juice line) into very real
events that happened at the back of the race and thus showing how shallow
the real incidents were. RAGT stayed in the race to the end. Each of the
riders earned less than 1000Euros in prizes. I am impressed. They did it
for nothing!

> Ron
 
On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:19:49 +0000 (UTC), Clovis Lark
<[email protected]> wrote:

>RonSonic <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On 28 Jul 2004 09:33:12 -0700, [email protected] (Richard Adams) wrote:
>
>>>Clovis Lark <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>>>> Thanks to my blow by blow coverage of RAGT's heroic efforts to snag the
>>>> Lanterne Rouge in addition to their destruction of the rest of the field
>>>> in the team competition, Cycling News sees fit, as Johnny Come Lately to
>>>> join the praise:
>>>>
>>>> RAGT Satisfied
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>yeah, amazing. despite your blathering away about it for weeks they
>>>still scooped you. maybe mocking a team once is thoughtful, but
>>>dragging it on for weeks is about as welcome as a moldy energy bar
>>>just before you get the bonk.
>
>> Man, Clovis got it right. He saw through the shallowness and greed of
>the other > teams who let themselves be lured off the road by promises of
>podium girls and > fancy colored jerseys. He saw how RAGT loved their time
>on the bike and made it > last as long as possible.
>
>While it was indeed satire, the butt of the satire is the winners only
>matter view. As I posted elsewhere, I challenged one complainer to ask
>for a one on one race with Joly or Casper (can't remember whom) and see
>who the winner was. Anyone who saw the interviews with Martin or Jean Luc
>knows these guys took their race seriously. Except for Heulot's
>misfortune, the team raced start to finish intact. Martin set the
>standard up the Alpe until the top guns arrived. When RAGT placed all
>those riders at the back of the standings in the final time, it served to
>show how hard they had worked to stay in the race, that they had nothing
>left. Those are true heros of sport.
>
>Frank Shorter (former marathon champion), once commenting at the NY
>Marathon, made this salient point. While the race, per usual, focused on
>the leaders, he remarked that his admiration was for the average Joes and
>Janes who would finish in 5-6 or hours. He couldn't imagine running that
>long, or the dedication it must take just to see the finish line as a
>triumph.
>
>And then there was the fun of integrating the ludicrous (Armstrong's silly
>marking of Simeoni, Lemond's self imposed high profile, Ullrich's
>director's immature comments, Ferrari's orange juice line) into very real
>events that happened at the back of the race and thus showing how shallow
>the real incidents were. RAGT stayed in the race to the end. Each of the
>riders earned less than 1000Euros in prizes. I am impressed. They did it
>for nothing!

I read it on a couple different levels and enjoyed the dry humor of each. I am a
connoisseur and it takes more than one level of irony to satisfy.

Sincere POV: I can't begin to ride with those guys, I doubt anyone else here
can. If I tried the result'd be road kill with handlebars. The lanterne rouge
really is an honor. The guys who got that are way ahead of the ones who abandon
and have surely ripped their guts out beating the cut off times.

Ullrich described one stage as "a day when nobody deserved to lose." That
applies to really all those guys, every day. Every one of them has guts,
determination and talent we should envy and aspire to. I don't know the team
organizations that well, but I can bet the RAGT guys had a harder race to ride
than USPS or CSC or Phonak or the rest. There were no chefs and helicoptors
waiting for them, hell, probably not even a team bus with massage tables. They
deserve praise. They finished with eight riders! That's worthy enough that even
on the disgracefully cheap scale of TdF prize money it was worth a bonus. The
TdF organizers should feel ashamed to cut a check that small for any team who
finishes.

But with the heroic effort there is also the quixotic futility that cannot be
ignored and the ironic humor that follows.

Anyway, I didn't read your reports as simply ragging on them. And suppose my
response wasn't sufficiently tongue in cheek to make that clear. I really do
hope the RAGT riders have earned some money making opportunities with this ride,
they deserve FAR better than the prize money.

Ron
BTW: those trees were planted for the benefit of Voight, Ullrich and Kloden.
 
RonSonic <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:19:49 +0000 (UTC), Clovis Lark
> <[email protected]> wrote:

>>RonSonic <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> On 28 Jul 2004 09:33:12 -0700, [email protected] (Richard Adams) wrote:
>>
>>>>Clovis Lark <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>>>>> Thanks to my blow by blow coverage of RAGT's heroic efforts to snag the
>>>>> Lanterne Rouge in addition to their destruction of the rest of the field
>>>>> in the team competition, Cycling News sees fit, as Johnny Come Lately to
>>>>> join the praise:
>>>>>
>>>>> RAGT Satisfied
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>yeah, amazing. despite your blathering away about it for weeks they
>>>>still scooped you. maybe mocking a team once is thoughtful, but
>>>>dragging it on for weeks is about as welcome as a moldy energy bar
>>>>just before you get the bonk.
>>
>>> Man, Clovis got it right. He saw through the shallowness and greed of
>>the other > teams who let themselves be lured off the road by promises of
>>podium girls and > fancy colored jerseys. He saw how RAGT loved their time
>>on the bike and made it > last as long as possible.
>>
>>While it was indeed satire, the butt of the satire is the winners only
>>matter view. As I posted elsewhere, I challenged one complainer to ask
>>for a one on one race with Joly or Casper (can't remember whom) and see
>>who the winner was. Anyone who saw the interviews with Martin or Jean Luc
>>knows these guys took their race seriously. Except for Heulot's
>>misfortune, the team raced start to finish intact. Martin set the
>>standard up the Alpe until the top guns arrived. When RAGT placed all
>>those riders at the back of the standings in the final time, it served to
>>show how hard they had worked to stay in the race, that they had nothing
>>left. Those are true heros of sport.
>>
>>Frank Shorter (former marathon champion), once commenting at the NY
>>Marathon, made this salient point. While the race, per usual, focused on
>>the leaders, he remarked that his admiration was for the average Joes and
>>Janes who would finish in 5-6 or hours. He couldn't imagine running that
>>long, or the dedication it must take just to see the finish line as a
>>triumph.
>>
>>And then there was the fun of integrating the ludicrous (Armstrong's silly
>>marking of Simeoni, Lemond's self imposed high profile, Ullrich's
>>director's immature comments, Ferrari's orange juice line) into very real
>>events that happened at the back of the race and thus showing how shallow
>>the real incidents were. RAGT stayed in the race to the end. Each of the
>>riders earned less than 1000Euros in prizes. I am impressed. They did it
>>for nothing!

> I read it on a couple different levels and enjoyed the dry humor of
> each. I am a > connoisseur and it takes more than one level of irony to
> satisfy.

> Sincere POV: I can't begin to ride with those guys, I doubt anyone else here
> can. If I tried the result'd be road kill with handlebars. The lanterne rouge
> really is an honor. The guys who got that are way ahead of the ones who abandon
> and have surely ripped their guts out beating the cut off times.

Forget not: the lanterne rouge is a seriously competitive sprinter.
Casper came in 6th in Paris garnering 20 points, ahead of Cooke and
O'Grady. What was his personal prize total?

> Ullrich described one stage as "a day when nobody deserved to lose." That
> applies to really all those guys, every day. Every one of them has guts,
> determination and talent we should envy and aspire to. I don't know the team
> organizations that well, but I can bet the RAGT guys had a harder race to ride
> than USPS or CSC or Phonak or the rest. There were no chefs

I'm sure they had a team chef. They all do.

> and helicoptors
> waiting for them, hell, probably not even a team bus with massage tables. They
> deserve praise. They finished with eight riders! That's worthy enough that even
> on the disgracefully cheap scale of TdF prize money it was worth a bonus. The
> TdF organizers should feel ashamed to cut a check that small for any team who
> finishes.

They are still on salary. That also magnifies their commitment. The wage
they contract for comes regardless of whether they complete the course.
So abandonment would have hurt them not. They chose to stay and ride for
what worked out to be a bonus of 300$ a week..

> But with the heroic effort there is also the quixotic futility that cannot be
> ignored and the ironic humor that follows.

> Anyway, I didn't read your reports as simply ragging on them. And suppose my
> response wasn't sufficiently tongue in cheek to make that clear. I really do
> hope the RAGT riders have earned some money making opportunities with this ride,
> they deserve FAR better than the prize money.

Surely you mean RAGTing? And you are quite correct. I was in no way
ragging. Kudos for them! Their work serves as reminder of the nameless
amateurs the founding fathers of the Tour used to solicit so the field
would be sufficiently large to look like a real race. These were the guys
who rode around france, slept in barracks, dined en masse in a mess hall
and got nothing except the distinction of having ridden. To ride the
entire distance competitively, i.e. in pain, with no chance for glory is
real didication to sport.

> Ron
> BTW: those trees were planted for the benefit of Voight, Ullrich and Kloden.


As I noted! And, sending Ullrich for ecstacy was truly turning a stallion
into a mule!
 
Clovis Lark <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> RonSonic <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 28 Jul 2004 09:33:12 -0700, [email protected] (Richard Adams) wrote:
>
> >>Clovis Lark <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> >>> Thanks to my blow by blow coverage of RAGT's heroic efforts to snag the
> >>> Lanterne Rouge in addition to their destruction of the rest of the field
> >>> in the team competition, Cycling News sees fit, as Johnny Come Lately to
> >>> join the praise:
> >>>
> >>> RAGT Satisfied
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>yeah, amazing. despite your blathering away about it for weeks they
> >>still scooped you. maybe mocking a team once is thoughtful, but
> >>dragging it on for weeks is about as welcome as a moldy energy bar
> >>just before you get the bonk.
>
> > Man, Clovis got it right. He saw through the shallowness and greed of
> the other > teams who let themselves be lured off the road by promises of
> podium girls and > fancy colored jerseys. He saw how RAGT loved their time
> on the bike and made it > last as long as possible.
>
> While it was indeed satire, the butt of the satire is the winners only
> matter view. As I posted elsewhere, I challenged one complainer to ask
> for a one on one race with Joly or Casper (can't remember whom) and see
> who the winner was. Anyone who saw the interviews with Martin or Jean Luc
> knows these guys took their race seriously. Except for Heulot's
> misfortune, the team raced start to finish intact. Martin set the
> standard up the Alpe until the top guns arrived. When RAGT placed all
> those riders at the back of the standings in the final time, it served to
> show how hard they had worked to stay in the race, that they had nothing
> left. Those are true heros of sport.
>
> Frank Shorter (former marathon champion), once commenting at the NY
> Marathon, made this salient point. While the race, per usual, focused on
> the leaders, he remarked that his admiration was for the average Joes and
> Janes who would finish in 5-6 or hours. He couldn't imagine running that
> long, or the dedication it must take just to see the finish line as a
> triumph.
>
> And then there was the fun of integrating the ludicrous (Armstrong's silly
> marking of Simeoni, Lemond's self imposed high profile, Ullrich's
> director's immature comments, Ferrari's orange juice line) into very real
> events that happened at the back of the race and thus showing how shallow
> the real incidents were. RAGT stayed in the race to the end. Each of the
> riders earned less than 1000Euros in prizes. I am impressed. They did it
> for nothing!

I believe there was a phrase, attributed to ALL who finish the tour as
Giants of the Road, which would include all finishing riders of RAGT
and the Lantern Rouge. I don't recall the original source of that
comment, though believe it was french.
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Clovis Lark <[email protected]> wrote:

> RonSonic <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:19:49 +0000 (UTC), Clovis Lark
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >>RonSonic <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>> On 28 Jul 2004 09:33:12 -0700, [email protected] (Richard Adams)
> >>> wrote:
> >>
> >>>>Clovis Lark <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >>>>news:<[email protected]>...
> >>>>> Thanks to my blow by blow coverage of RAGT's heroic efforts to snag the
> >>>>> Lanterne Rouge in addition to their destruction of the rest of the
> >>>>> field
> >>>>> in the team competition, Cycling News sees fit, as Johnny Come Lately
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> join the praise:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> RAGT Satisfied
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>yeah, amazing. despite your blathering away about it for weeks they
> >>>>still scooped you. maybe mocking a team once is thoughtful, but
> >>>>dragging it on for weeks is about as welcome as a moldy energy bar
> >>>>just before you get the bonk.
> >>
> >>> Man, Clovis got it right. He saw through the shallowness and greed of
> >>the other > teams who let themselves be lured off the road by promises of
> >>podium girls and > fancy colored jerseys. He saw how RAGT loved their time
> >>on the bike and made it > last as long as possible.

> > hope the RAGT riders have earned some money making opportunities with this
> > ride,
> > they deserve FAR better than the prize money.
>
> Surely you mean RAGTing? And you are quite correct. I was in no way
> ragging. Kudos for them! Their work serves as reminder of the nameless
> amateurs the founding fathers of the Tour used to solicit so the field
> would be sufficiently large to look like a real race. These were the guys
> who rode around france, slept in barracks, dined en masse in a mess hall
> and got nothing except the distinction of having ridden. To ride the
> entire distance competitively, i.e. in pain, with no chance for glory is
> real didication to sport.

Well, at the risk of crashing RAGT's tribute, I'd like to point out that
while I and others who noted RAGT's record in this Tour may admire their
determination to finish the race, and while I think that, at least once
the starter's flag drops, mercenary concerns have little to do with the
effort put out by most racers, the real problem is not how RAGT did, but
the fact that they necessarily displaced another team from the tour.

Kelme, for example, would probably have been a better choice, among many
others. What were the RAGT riders riding for that drove them to the end?
Well, for one thing, riders with a reputation for quitting don't get
their contracts renewed. For another, every day they ride and show up on
the Tour is another day of exposure for their sponsors, who are probably
well-pleased with the simple fact that the team got into the Tour.

I totally admire anyone who makes an athletic effort, and yes, these
guys are racing against themselves much more than they are racing Lance
and Jan, just as much as the 5-hour marathoner is racing the clock and
their own personal best. Heck, I'm a Cat 4 nothing: I'm racing to be the
among the best of the fourth-best bunch of local racers. Not exactly
inspiring stuff when you put it that way, but I'm having fun.

The problem is that RAGT was not a participant in an open marathon or a
local amateur event. They were in the Tour. Logistics and safety dictate
that only a limited number of teams can enter. Common sense and the
record suggests there would have been better choices than RAGT.

For an example of an overachieving team, look at Brioches La Boulangere,
who put Voeckler in yellow for an incredibly long stretch, defended the
jersey long beyond the expectations of anyone, and finished admirably in
the team classification, even ahead of Saeco.

The trouble with RAGT is they really never made a mark on this tour. I
don't recall a significant breakaway in which they participated. The
highest award they won was a "combativity" award one day, and that, as
one person noted here, on a day when it was "won cheaply" (I suspect
through a suicidal breakaway during the early part of one of the really
epic mountain stages).

One of the reasons for letting some of the weaker French teams in is
because these no-hopers tend to drive breakaways when more cautious
teams looking for bigger prizes (GC teams, sprinter teams) would hold
back out of tactical prudence. The teams with nothing to lose can then
drive the race pace because, while no threat to those grander prizes,
they can still hope for a stage win or at least some TV time. RAGT
really didn't seize the opportunity.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com
President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Clovis Lark <[email protected]> wrote:

> RonSonic <[email protected]> wrote:

> > Ullrich described one stage as "a day when nobody deserved to lose." That
> > applies to really all those guys, every day. Every one of them has guts,
> > determination and talent we should envy and aspire to. I don't know the
> > team organizations that well, but I can bet the RAGT guys had a harder
> > race to ride than USPS or CSC or Phonak or the rest. There were no chefs
>
> I'm sure they had a team chef. They all do.

Well, Alessio-Bianchi didn't, at least according to Scott Sunderland. Go
to this page then about halfway down.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/tour04/features/diaries/scott.php?id=sc
ott0441

That does seem pretty odd to me. I wonder if they have one when they do
the Giro.

--
tanx,
Howard

So far, so good, so what?

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
 
On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 20:36:55 -0700, Ryan Cousineau <[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> Clovis Lark <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> RonSonic <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:19:49 +0000 (UTC), Clovis Lark
>> > <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >>RonSonic <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >>> On 28 Jul 2004 09:33:12 -0700, [email protected] (Richard Adams)
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>>Clovis Lark <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> >>>>news:<[email protected]>...
>> >>>>> Thanks to my blow by blow coverage of RAGT's heroic efforts to snag the
>> >>>>> Lanterne Rouge in addition to their destruction of the rest of the
>> >>>>> field
>> >>>>> in the team competition, Cycling News sees fit, as Johnny Come Lately
>> >>>>> to
>> >>>>> join the praise:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> RAGT Satisfied
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>yeah, amazing. despite your blathering away about it for weeks they
>> >>>>still scooped you. maybe mocking a team once is thoughtful, but
>> >>>>dragging it on for weeks is about as welcome as a moldy energy bar
>> >>>>just before you get the bonk.
>> >>
>> >>> Man, Clovis got it right. He saw through the shallowness and greed of
>> >>the other > teams who let themselves be lured off the road by promises of
>> >>podium girls and > fancy colored jerseys. He saw how RAGT loved their time
>> >>on the bike and made it > last as long as possible.
>
>> > hope the RAGT riders have earned some money making opportunities with this
>> > ride,
>> > they deserve FAR better than the prize money.
>>
>> Surely you mean RAGTing? And you are quite correct. I was in no way
>> ragging. Kudos for them! Their work serves as reminder of the nameless
>> amateurs the founding fathers of the Tour used to solicit so the field
>> would be sufficiently large to look like a real race. These were the guys
>> who rode around france, slept in barracks, dined en masse in a mess hall
>> and got nothing except the distinction of having ridden. To ride the
>> entire distance competitively, i.e. in pain, with no chance for glory is
>> real didication to sport.
>
>Well, at the risk of crashing RAGT's tribute, I'd like to point out that
>while I and others who noted RAGT's record in this Tour may admire their
>determination to finish the race, and while I think that, at least once
>the starter's flag drops, mercenary concerns have little to do with the
>effort put out by most racers, the real problem is not how RAGT did, but
>the fact that they necessarily displaced another team from the tour.
>
>Kelme, for example, would probably have been a better choice, among many
>others. What were the RAGT riders riding for that drove them to the end?
>Well, for one thing, riders with a reputation for quitting don't get
>their contracts renewed. For another, every day they ride and show up on
>the Tour is another day of exposure for their sponsors, who are probably
>well-pleased with the simple fact that the team got into the Tour.
>
>I totally admire anyone who makes an athletic effort, and yes, these
>guys are racing against themselves much more than they are racing Lance
>and Jan, just as much as the 5-hour marathoner is racing the clock and
>their own personal best. Heck, I'm a Cat 4 nothing: I'm racing to be the
>among the best of the fourth-best bunch of local racers. Not exactly
>inspiring stuff when you put it that way, but I'm having fun.
>
>The problem is that RAGT was not a participant in an open marathon or a
>local amateur event. They were in the Tour. Logistics and safety dictate
>that only a limited number of teams can enter. Common sense and the
>record suggests there would have been better choices than RAGT.
>
>For an example of an overachieving team, look at Brioches La Boulangere,
>who put Voeckler in yellow for an incredibly long stretch, defended the
>jersey long beyond the expectations of anyone, and finished admirably in
>the team classification, even ahead of Saeco.
>
>The trouble with RAGT is they really never made a mark on this tour. I
>don't recall a significant breakaway in which they participated. The
>highest award they won was a "combativity" award one day, and that, as
>one person noted here, on a day when it was "won cheaply" (I suspect
>through a suicidal breakaway during the early part of one of the really
>epic mountain stages).
>
>One of the reasons for letting some of the weaker French teams in is
>because these no-hopers tend to drive breakaways when more cautious
>teams looking for bigger prizes (GC teams, sprinter teams) would hold
>back out of tactical prudence. The teams with nothing to lose can then
>drive the race pace because, while no threat to those grander prizes,
>they can still hope for a stage win or at least some TV time. RAGT
>really didn't seize the opportunity.

They didn't displace anyone. The tour was still a team short this year.

In just about any competition there are guys just motoring around out there
hoping for something good to happen. These guys stayed out of trouble, got a
hell of a work out. No they didn't win anything much but did contest a few
things. Good on them. I don't really know the team, but hopefully there are some
young guys who learned and got stronger. Which I think was the promoter's plan,
get some French guys out there who might develop into something. Hell, it's been
20 years since a Frenchman won this thing and I can't blame them for being a
little desperate for hope.

I continue to reserve the right to make fun of their futility.

Ron
 
in article [email protected], Ryan Cousineau at
[email protected] wrote on 7/29/04 8:36 PM:

> The trouble with RAGT is they really never made a mark on this tour. I
> don't recall a significant breakaway in which they participated. The
> highest award they won was a "combativity" award one day, and that, as
> one person noted here, on a day when it was "won cheaply" (I suspect
> through a suicidal breakaway during the early part of one of the really
> epic mountain stages).

Actually that was not on a mountain stage. I don't disagree with your
overall judgment, but your facts are not straight.

RAGT's proud moments in this Tour came in two consecutive days: the Alpe
d'Huez time trial, where Ludovic Martin put in a very fast early time which
stood on the top of the leaderboard for over 2 hours, and the next day -
where the same guy went in a break with Gilberto Simoni and several other
climbers, and stayed with them over the Col de Madeleine, taking third place
on that mountain.

And it is very impressive that they finished with eight riders. Last year's
last place team was Vini Caldirola, placed way, way behind Jean Delatour..
and they finished with 4 riders.

-Sonarrat.
 
Ryan Cousineau <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Clovis Lark <[email protected]> wrote:

>> RonSonic <[email protected]> wrote:
>> > On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:19:49 +0000 (UTC), Clovis Lark
>> > <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> >>RonSonic <[email protected]> wrote:
>> >>> On 28 Jul 2004 09:33:12 -0700, [email protected] (Richard Adams)
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>>Clovis Lark <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> >>>>news:<[email protected]>...
>> >>>>> Thanks to my blow by blow coverage of RAGT's heroic efforts to snag the
>> >>>>> Lanterne Rouge in addition to their destruction of the rest of the
>> >>>>> field
>> >>>>> in the team competition, Cycling News sees fit, as Johnny Come Lately
>> >>>>> to
>> >>>>> join the praise:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> RAGT Satisfied
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>yeah, amazing. despite your blathering away about it for weeks they
>> >>>>still scooped you. maybe mocking a team once is thoughtful, but
>> >>>>dragging it on for weeks is about as welcome as a moldy energy bar
>> >>>>just before you get the bonk.
>> >>
>> >>> Man, Clovis got it right. He saw through the shallowness and greed of
>> >>the other > teams who let themselves be lured off the road by promises of
>> >>podium girls and > fancy colored jerseys. He saw how RAGT loved their time
>> >>on the bike and made it > last as long as possible.

>> > hope the RAGT riders have earned some money making opportunities with this
>> > ride,
>> > they deserve FAR better than the prize money.
>>
>> Surely you mean RAGTing? And you are quite correct. I was in no way
>> ragging. Kudos for them! Their work serves as reminder of the nameless
>> amateurs the founding fathers of the Tour used to solicit so the field
>> would be sufficiently large to look like a real race. These were the guys
>> who rode around france, slept in barracks, dined en masse in a mess hall
>> and got nothing except the distinction of having ridden. To ride the
>> entire distance competitively, i.e. in pain, with no chance for glory is
>> real didication to sport.

> Well, at the risk of crashing RAGT's tribute, I'd like to point out that
> while I and others who noted RAGT's record in this Tour may admire their
> determination to finish the race, and while I think that, at least once
> the starter's flag drops, mercenary concerns have little to do with the
> effort put out by most racers, the real problem is not how RAGT did, but
> the fact that they necessarily displaced another team from the tour.

So did US Postal...

So did Domina Vacanze... So did Cofidis and Fassa Bortolo... These last 3
were all over 4 hours back. Someone is going to be last. Someone is
going to fall apart.

> Kelme, for example, would probably have been a better choice, among many

After Manzano's comments, no way Kelme was coming. You might as well
complain that doping controls are evil, because they deny certain teams a
place.

> others. What were the RAGT riders riding for that drove them to the end?
> Well, for one thing, riders with a reputation for quitting don't get
> their contracts renewed. For another, every day they ride and show up on
> the Tour is another day of exposure for their sponsors, who are probably
> well-pleased with the simple fact that the team got into the Tour.

> I totally admire anyone who makes an athletic effort, and yes, these
> guys are racing against themselves much more than they are racing Lance
> and Jan, just as much as the 5-hour marathoner is racing the clock and
> their own personal best. Heck, I'm a Cat 4 nothing: I'm racing to be the
> among the best of the fourth-best bunch of local racers. Not exactly
> inspiring stuff when you put it that way, but I'm having fun.

> The problem is that RAGT was not a participant in an open marathon or a
> local amateur event. They were in the Tour. Logistics and safety dictate
> that only a limited number of teams can enter. Common sense and the
> record suggests there would have been better choices than RAGT.

Do you think another team would have brought a rider who's time would have
set the standard up Alpe d'Huez for the bulk of that TT?

> For an example of an overachieving team, look at Brioches La Boulangere,
> who put Voeckler in yellow for an incredibly long stretch, defended the
> jersey long beyond the expectations of anyone, and finished admirably in
> the team classification, even ahead of Saeco.

They were there. RAGT didn't leave them out.

> The trouble with RAGT is they really never made a mark on this tour. I
> don't recall a significant breakaway in which they participated. The
> highest award they won was a "combativity" award one day, and that, as
> one person noted here, on a day when it was "won cheaply" (I suspect
> through a suicidal breakaway during the early part of one of the really
> epic mountain stages).

> One of the reasons for letting some of the weaker French teams in is
> because these no-hopers tend to drive breakaways when more cautious
> teams looking for bigger prizes (GC teams, sprinter teams) would hold
> back out of tactical prudence. The teams with nothing to lose can then
> drive the race pace because, while no threat to those grander prizes,
> they can still hope for a stage win or at least some TV time. RAGT
> really didn't seize the opportunity.

Alpe d'Huez...


> --
> Ryan Cousineau, [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com
> President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club
 
RonSonic <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 20:36:55 -0700, Ryan Cousineau <[email protected]> wrote:

>>In article <[email protected]>,
>> Clovis Lark <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> RonSonic <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> > On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 14:19:49 +0000 (UTC), Clovis Lark
>>> > <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>> >>RonSonic <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> >>> On 28 Jul 2004 09:33:12 -0700, [email protected] (Richard Adams)
>>> >>> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>>>Clovis Lark <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> >>>>news:<[email protected]>...
>>> >>>>> Thanks to my blow by blow coverage of RAGT's heroic efforts to snag the
>>> >>>>> Lanterne Rouge in addition to their destruction of the rest of the
>>> >>>>> field
>>> >>>>> in the team competition, Cycling News sees fit, as Johnny Come Lately
>>> >>>>> to
>>> >>>>> join the praise:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> RAGT Satisfied
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>yeah, amazing. despite your blathering away about it for weeks they
>>> >>>>still scooped you. maybe mocking a team once is thoughtful, but
>>> >>>>dragging it on for weeks is about as welcome as a moldy energy bar
>>> >>>>just before you get the bonk.
>>> >>
>>> >>> Man, Clovis got it right. He saw through the shallowness and greed of
>>> >>the other > teams who let themselves be lured off the road by promises of
>>> >>podium girls and > fancy colored jerseys. He saw how RAGT loved their time
>>> >>on the bike and made it > last as long as possible.
>>
>>> > hope the RAGT riders have earned some money making opportunities with this
>>> > ride,
>>> > they deserve FAR better than the prize money.
>>>
>>> Surely you mean RAGTing? And you are quite correct. I was in no way
>>> ragging. Kudos for them! Their work serves as reminder of the nameless
>>> amateurs the founding fathers of the Tour used to solicit so the field
>>> would be sufficiently large to look like a real race. These were the guys
>>> who rode around france, slept in barracks, dined en masse in a mess hall
>>> and got nothing except the distinction of having ridden. To ride the
>>> entire distance competitively, i.e. in pain, with no chance for glory is
>>> real didication to sport.
>>
>>Well, at the risk of crashing RAGT's tribute, I'd like to point out that
>>while I and others who noted RAGT's record in this Tour may admire their
>>determination to finish the race, and while I think that, at least once
>>the starter's flag drops, mercenary concerns have little to do with the
>>effort put out by most racers, the real problem is not how RAGT did, but
>>the fact that they necessarily displaced another team from the tour.
>>
>>Kelme, for example, would probably have been a better choice, among many
>>others. What were the RAGT riders riding for that drove them to the end?
>>Well, for one thing, riders with a reputation for quitting don't get
>>their contracts renewed. For another, every day they ride and show up on
>>the Tour is another day of exposure for their sponsors, who are probably
>>well-pleased with the simple fact that the team got into the Tour.
>>
>>I totally admire anyone who makes an athletic effort, and yes, these
>>guys are racing against themselves much more than they are racing Lance
>>and Jan, just as much as the 5-hour marathoner is racing the clock and
>>their own personal best. Heck, I'm a Cat 4 nothing: I'm racing to be the
>>among the best of the fourth-best bunch of local racers. Not exactly
>>inspiring stuff when you put it that way, but I'm having fun.
>>
>>The problem is that RAGT was not a participant in an open marathon or a
>>local amateur event. They were in the Tour. Logistics and safety dictate
>>that only a limited number of teams can enter. Common sense and the
>>record suggests there would have been better choices than RAGT.
>>
>>For an example of an overachieving team, look at Brioches La Boulangere,
>>who put Voeckler in yellow for an incredibly long stretch, defended the
>>jersey long beyond the expectations of anyone, and finished admirably in
>>the team classification, even ahead of Saeco.
>>
>>The trouble with RAGT is they really never made a mark on this tour. I
>>don't recall a significant breakaway in which they participated. The
>>highest award they won was a "combativity" award one day, and that, as
>>one person noted here, on a day when it was "won cheaply" (I suspect
>>through a suicidal breakaway during the early part of one of the really
>>epic mountain stages).
>>
>>One of the reasons for letting some of the weaker French teams in is
>>because these no-hopers tend to drive breakaways when more cautious
>>teams looking for bigger prizes (GC teams, sprinter teams) would hold
>>back out of tactical prudence. The teams with nothing to lose can then
>>drive the race pace because, while no threat to those grander prizes,
>>they can still hope for a stage win or at least some TV time. RAGT
>>really didn't seize the opportunity.

> They didn't displace anyone. The tour was still a team short this year.

> In just about any competition there are guys just motoring around out there
> hoping for something good to happen. These guys stayed out of trouble, got a
> hell of a work out. No they didn't win anything much but did contest a few
> things. Good on them. I don't really know the team, but hopefully there are some
> young guys who learned and got stronger. Which I think was the promoter's plan,
> get some French guys out there who might develop into something. Hell, it's been
> 20 years since a Frenchman won this thing and I can't blame them for being a
> little desperate for hope.

And national development, you'll see it next month in the US Open, is an
obligation of such high profile sporting events.

> I continue to reserve the right to make fun of their futility.

Amen!

> Ron
 
Howard Kveck <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Clovis Lark <[email protected]> wrote:

>> RonSonic <[email protected]> wrote:

>> > Ullrich described one stage as "a day when nobody deserved to lose." That
>> > applies to really all those guys, every day. Every one of them has guts,
>> > determination and talent we should envy and aspire to. I don't know the
>> > team organizations that well, but I can bet the RAGT guys had a harder
>> > race to ride than USPS or CSC or Phonak or the rest. There were no chefs
>>
>> I'm sure they had a team chef. They all do.

> Well, Alessio-Bianchi didn't, at least according to Scott Sunderland. Go
> to this page then about halfway down.
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/tour04/features/diaries/scott.php?id=sc
> ott0441

You mean, they were hanging out at McDo's?!!!

> That does seem pretty odd to me. I wonder if they have one when they do
> the Giro.

One wonders, what with all the doping controls, the fears of something
they won't be able to mask entering a rider's system from an outside
source...

> --
> tanx,
> Howard

> So far, so good, so what?

> remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
 
In article <BD2F30F2.6AA9%[email protected]>,
Sonarrat <[email protected]> wrote:

> in article [email protected], Ryan Cousineau at
> [email protected] wrote on 7/29/04 8:36 PM:
>
> > The trouble with RAGT is they really never made a mark on this tour. I
> > don't recall a significant breakaway in which they participated. The
> > highest award they won was a "combativity" award one day, and that, as
> > one person noted here, on a day when it was "won cheaply" (I suspect
> > through a suicidal breakaway during the early part of one of the really
> > epic mountain stages).
>
> Actually that was not on a mountain stage. I don't disagree with your
> overall judgment, but your facts are not straight.
>
> RAGT's proud moments in this Tour came in two consecutive days: the Alpe
> d'Huez time trial, where Ludovic Martin put in a very fast early time which
> stood on the top of the leaderboard for over 2 hours, and the next day -
> where the same guy went in a break with Gilberto Simoni and several other
> climbers, and stayed with them over the Col de Madeleine, taking third place
> on that mountain.

D'oh! I stand corrected. And yes, at least they got into one good break.

I'm only semi-impressed by Martin's 2 hours atop the leaderboard. The
secret to doing that is to either perform well above your level in the
TT, or grossly underachieve before the TT so you have a really early
starting time and set a standard for a bunch of sprinters and third-tier
domestiques.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com
President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club
 
in article [email protected], Richard Adams at
[email protected] wrote on 7/29/04 11:40 AM:

> Clovis Lark <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
>> RonSonic <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> On 28 Jul 2004 09:33:12 -0700, [email protected] (Richard Adams) wrote:
>>
>>>> Clovis Lark <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:<[email protected]>...
>>>>> Thanks to my blow by blow coverage of RAGT's heroic efforts to snag the
>>>>> Lanterne Rouge in addition to their destruction of the rest of the field
>>>>> in the team competition, Cycling News sees fit, as Johnny Come Lately to
>>>>> join the praise:
>>>>>
>>>>> RAGT Satisfied
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> yeah, amazing. despite your blathering away about it for weeks they
>>>> still scooped you. maybe mocking a team once is thoughtful, but
>>>> dragging it on for weeks is about as welcome as a moldy energy bar
>>>> just before you get the bonk.
>>
>>> Man, Clovis got it right. He saw through the shallowness and greed of
>> the other > teams who let themselves be lured off the road by promises of
>> podium girls and > fancy colored jerseys. He saw how RAGT loved their time
>> on the bike and made it > last as long as possible.
>>
>> While it was indeed satire, the butt of the satire is the winners only
>> matter view. As I posted elsewhere, I challenged one complainer to ask
>> for a one on one race with Joly or Casper (can't remember whom) and see
>> who the winner was. Anyone who saw the interviews with Martin or Jean Luc
>> knows these guys took their race seriously. Except for Heulot's
>> misfortune, the team raced start to finish intact. Martin set the
>> standard up the Alpe until the top guns arrived. When RAGT placed all
>> those riders at the back of the standings in the final time, it served to
>> show how hard they had worked to stay in the race, that they had nothing
>> left. Those are true heros of sport.
>>
>> Frank Shorter (former marathon champion), once commenting at the NY
>> Marathon, made this salient point. While the race, per usual, focused on
>> the leaders, he remarked that his admiration was for the average Joes and
>> Janes who would finish in 5-6 or hours. He couldn't imagine running that
>> long, or the dedication it must take just to see the finish line as a
>> triumph.
>>
>> And then there was the fun of integrating the ludicrous (Armstrong's silly
>> marking of Simeoni, Lemond's self imposed high profile, Ullrich's
>> director's immature comments, Ferrari's orange juice line) into very real
>> events that happened at the back of the race and thus showing how shallow
>> the real incidents were. RAGT stayed in the race to the end. Each of the
>> riders earned less than 1000Euros in prizes. I am impressed. They did it
>> for nothing!
>
> I believe there was a phrase, attributed to ALL who finish the tour as
> Giants of the Road, which would include all finishing riders of RAGT
> and the Lantern Rouge. I don't recall the original source of that
> comment, though believe it was french.

You know who impresses me most? Well, a couple of people. Peter Farazijn
of Cofidis had only a couple of hours' notice to get to the Tour de France
when Matt White crashed in practice, and he still finished in Paris. And
Matt Wilson was throwing up for several days and he didn't quit either.
These are great men.

-Sonarrat.
 
Sonarrat <[email protected]> wrote:
> in article [email protected], Richard Adams at
> [email protected] wrote on 7/29/04 11:40 AM:

>> Clovis Lark <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:<[email protected]>...
>>> RonSonic <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> On 28 Jul 2004 09:33:12 -0700, [email protected] (Richard Adams) wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Clovis Lark <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>> news:<[email protected]>...
>>>>>> Thanks to my blow by blow coverage of RAGT's heroic efforts to snag the
>>>>>> Lanterne Rouge in addition to their destruction of the rest of the field
>>>>>> in the team competition, Cycling News sees fit, as Johnny Come Lately to
>>>>>> join the praise:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> RAGT Satisfied
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> yeah, amazing. despite your blathering away about it for weeks they
>>>>> still scooped you. maybe mocking a team once is thoughtful, but
>>>>> dragging it on for weeks is about as welcome as a moldy energy bar
>>>>> just before you get the bonk.
>>>
>>>> Man, Clovis got it right. He saw through the shallowness and greed of
>>> the other > teams who let themselves be lured off the road by promises of
>>> podium girls and > fancy colored jerseys. He saw how RAGT loved their time
>>> on the bike and made it > last as long as possible.
>>>
>>> While it was indeed satire, the butt of the satire is the winners only
>>> matter view. As I posted elsewhere, I challenged one complainer to ask
>>> for a one on one race with Joly or Casper (can't remember whom) and see
>>> who the winner was. Anyone who saw the interviews with Martin or Jean Luc
>>> knows these guys took their race seriously. Except for Heulot's
>>> misfortune, the team raced start to finish intact. Martin set the
>>> standard up the Alpe until the top guns arrived. When RAGT placed all
>>> those riders at the back of the standings in the final time, it served to
>>> show how hard they had worked to stay in the race, that they had nothing
>>> left. Those are true heros of sport.
>>>
>>> Frank Shorter (former marathon champion), once commenting at the NY
>>> Marathon, made this salient point. While the race, per usual, focused on
>>> the leaders, he remarked that his admiration was for the average Joes and
>>> Janes who would finish in 5-6 or hours. He couldn't imagine running that
>>> long, or the dedication it must take just to see the finish line as a
>>> triumph.
>>>
>>> And then there was the fun of integrating the ludicrous (Armstrong's silly
>>> marking of Simeoni, Lemond's self imposed high profile, Ullrich's
>>> director's immature comments, Ferrari's orange juice line) into very real
>>> events that happened at the back of the race and thus showing how shallow
>>> the real incidents were. RAGT stayed in the race to the end. Each of the
>>> riders earned less than 1000Euros in prizes. I am impressed. They did it
>>> for nothing!
>>
>> I believe there was a phrase, attributed to ALL who finish the tour as
>> Giants of the Road, which would include all finishing riders of RAGT
>> and the Lantern Rouge. I don't recall the original source of that
>> comment, though believe it was french.

> You know who impresses me most? Well, a couple of people. Peter Farazijn
> of Cofidis had only a couple of hours' notice to get to the Tour de France
> when Matt White crashed in practice, and he still finished in Paris. And
> Matt Wilson was throwing up for several days and he didn't quit either.
> These are great men.

Or fools...

> -Sonarrat.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

S
RAGT just can't catch a break..
Replies
2
Views
403
Road Cycling
sonarrat
S
C
RAGT's final glorious charge into gay Paree
Replies
0
Views
351
Road Cycling
Clovis Lark
C
C
RAGT on parade with watches on!
Replies
1
Views
370
Road Cycling
RonSonic
R
C
RAGT update
Replies
8
Views
421
Road Cycling
Benjamin Weiner
B
C
RAGT phenomenal!
Replies
1
Views
357
Road Cycling
Tom Kunich
T
R
Who has more UCI points; Horner or RAGT?
Replies
1
Views
417
Road Cycling
Dan Connelly
D
K
RAGT Prize Money
Replies
10
Views
351
Road Cycling
Ryan Barrett
R
A
Tallest rider: Guillaume Auger (RAGT) - 1.96 m
Replies
0
Views
1K
Cycling Equipment
Almost Fast
A
A
Tallest rider: Guillaume Auger (RAGT) - 1.96 m
Replies
0
Views
372
Cycling Equipment
almost fast
A
B
RAGT Semences-MG Rover in TDF... but no Kelme... wtf???
Replies
7
Views
1K
Road Cycling
Sonarrat
S
Top Bottom Back