Raison d'etre for STI

[Michael Doleman]

Having gotten into serious road cycling around the mid-80s, I learned to ride with downtube
levers; didn't find it to be all that hard to master, and never particularly thought of it as a
safety issue.

When I got BACK into serious road cycling about 7 years ago I was sorta dismayed to find that STI or
Ergo represented 99% of the options available in the modern market. Since then I have tried STI and
ergo, and decided I don't like either. Too limiting: can't position brake lever independantly of
shifting mechanism, index-only, Shimano or Campy only compatibility, etc. Plus, the levers are NOT
very durable and certainly not serviceable.

I do admit, though, that for fast road riding on the rolling terrain of the SF bay area and Sierra
foothills, it's quite nice to have the shifting right up there under your fingertips. My ultimate
solution has been to find an old set of Suntour Command shifters. These are wonderful units which,
in my opinion, offer the best of all possible worlds. They mount independantly of the brake lever,
are index or friction, quite durable (simple design), and actually can be acutated from many more
positions than either STI or Ergo.

It's too bad Suntour is defunct and also that no-one picked up on this design, as it makes much
sense (hear my plea, Paul Component Engineering!). The only drawback is that for folks with smaller
hands and/or short fingers, I can imagine it to be a bit difficult to get the RH lever into the
highest and lowest cog position. I am sure that if someone picked-up the ball on this design,
though, the rough-edges could be worked-out.

 

[Sergio Servadio]

On Wed, 15 Jan 2003, Gordon BP wrote:
> My fast touring frame has bosses for two bottles - one on the seat tube and one on the down tube
> AND has brazings for down-tube levers as well, (which I use) so that's not a reason......

Good for you. I know people who didn't want to give up the 'long' pump and they had four bosses for
two cages on the down-tube. Of course the bottles are a bit in the way of each other, but they can
be accomodated. For someone, that was indeed one more reason.

Sergio Pisa

 

[Steven L. Sheff]

in article [email protected], Michael Doleman at
[email protected] wrote on 01/15/2003 03:49 PM:

> Plus, the levers are NOT very durable and certainly not serviceable.

Campagnolo Ergo levers are very durable, and are very definitely serviceable (and upgradable from 8
to 9 to 10).

--

Steven L. Sheffield stevens at veloworks dot com veloworks at worldnet dot ay tea tee dot net bellum
pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea aye tee why you ti
ay aitch aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you double-yew double-ewe
dot veloworks dot com [four word] slash

 

[Mike S.]

Having ridden all three types of shifters mentioned in this thread, I'd much rather have STI/Ergo
than the alternatives, so we'll all just have to agree to disagree about this topic too.

Since you aren't going to change MY mind and I doubt seriously anyone is going to change YOUR mind,
we're going to go around in circles till someone starts getting aggravated... (like on rbr!)

Let's get into something fun like the rolling resistance of big tires vs. little tires, or aero
wheels, or...

"Benjamin Lewis" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Drew Eckhardt wrote:
>
> > In article <[email protected]>, Benjamin Lewis <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Maybe, but I'm also not sure that you're considering replacement costs. Even if brifteurs have
> >> the same approximate lifetime, which I find unlikely, I don't want to have to replace my brake
> >> levers because my gears aren't shifting properly.
> >
> > So you buy Campagnolo levers. Although the right lever can wear out in 10,000 miles, replacing
> > three springs restores the original performance.
> >
> > And if you some how manage to break or wear out other parts like the shift cam, those are all
> > available as spares too.
>
> Well, yeah, if I preferred the brifteur style of shifting, I'd probably go with Ergo. But since,
> as I keep repeating, I prefer barcons, and since they're still cheaper even though they only make
> them at the top of the line, I would be foolish to do this.
>
> --
> Benjamin Lewis
>
> Although the moon is smaller than the earth, it is farther away.

 

[The Pomeranian]

Michael Doleman wrote:
>

> When I got BACK into serious road cycling about 7 years ago I was sorta dismayed to find that STI
> or Ergo represented 99% of the options available in the modern market.

Since STI and ERGO are both brifters, I think they represent "33% of the options" for road bikes.
There are 3 choices:

1. brifters (33%)
2. DTs (33%)
3. bar-ends (33%)
-----------------
99%

All are readily available if you got the bucks. All are "options." I'm looking for that lost 1%.

 

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Michael
Doleman) wrote:

> I do admit, though, that for fast road riding on the rolling terrain of the SF bay area and Sierra
> foothills, it's quite nice to have the shifting right up there under your fingertips. My ultimate
> solution has been to find an old set of Suntour Command shifters. These are wonderful units which,
> in my opinion, offer the best of all possible worlds. They mount independantly of the brake lever,
> are index or friction, quite durable (simple design), and actually can be acutated from many more
> positions than either STI or Ergo.
>
> It's too bad Suntour is defunct and also that no-one picked up on this design, as it makes much
> sense (hear my plea, Paul Component Engineering!). The only drawback is that for folks with
> smaller hands and/or short fingers, I can imagine it to be a bit difficult to get the RH lever
> into the highest and lowest cog position. I am sure that if someone picked-up the ball on this
> design, though, the rough-edges could be worked-out.

Argh! I can't remember the details, but there are one or more companies making mounts that put DT
shifters on a mount very close to the brake hoods. It emulates most of the Command design, though
with only a single DT-type lever, not the giant wingnut I see in pictures of the Suntour design.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email protected] http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

 

[Jay Beattie]

"Mike S." <mikeshaw@coxDOTnet> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> For those of us that keep our bikes just a few seasons before getting
new
> ones, the thought of long term durability is secondary to performance.
I'd
> rather have the best shifting NOW and let someone else deal with the
levers'
> demise.
>
> Having said that, I'm one of the easiest people I know on components,
so
> mine tend to last longer than average. Go figure.

If you are easy on your components, why do you replace your bike every few seasons? I could see
upgrading to 9 or 10 speed, but an all new bike? -- Jay Beattie.

 

[Tim McNamara]

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Michael
Doleman) wrote:

> I do admit, though, that for fast road riding on the rolling terrain of the SF bay area and Sierra
> foothills, it's quite nice to have the shifting right up there under your fingertips. My ultimate
> solution has been to find an old set of Suntour Command shifters. These are wonderful units which,
> in my opinion, offer the best of all possible worlds. They mount independantly of the brake lever,
> are index or friction, quite durable (simple design), and actually can be acutated from many more
> positions than either STI or Ergo.

Oddly, no one has mentioned the Kelly Power Take-Off in this thread, as far as I have seen. It's an
adapter that mounts to the bars, just below the brake levers, and allows you to use DT shifters near
the hoods. Since the Command Shifter is a rara avis, this may be a viable option for some (although
I prefer bar-end shifters, but there's no accounting for taste). Moulton's New Series bike also puts
the DT shift lever on a mount on the bars.

 

[Peter Headland]

> ... They also have limited trim adjustment for the front.

Here's one I never get - what in the world do I want more trim adjustment for, exactly? On my
Longstaff custom (with ~44cm chainstays) I never have to trim the front (Ultegra/105 triple) at all.
On my Trek 5500 (shorter chainstays), I have two trim positions in each ring (DA), which is all that
I need - more would just be a nuisance because they would require more conscious effort.

The frequency with which I have heard this supposed Campy advantage mentioned leads me to believe
that either there are a lot of badly setup Shimano transmissions out there, or that Campy actually
needs constant trimming.

 

[Thomas Reynolds]

"David L. Johnson" <David L. Johnson <[email protected]>> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> Possibly, but at least Ergo are servicable. Barring a crash, I don't think I will have to replace
> the brifters (which I got from a swap meet for $40) for a long time. The biggest arguments
> against these things apply mostly to STI, which are not servicable, and wear out after something
> like 10K miles.

10K miles? I assume you are being a bit cynical. I have some RSX STI shifters with more than 33K
miles and Dura Ace STIs with 12K. Both are still going strong.

Tom

 

[Sheldon Brown]

Il Pomeranio ha scritto nel messaggio:

> Since STI and ERGO are both brifters, I think they represent "33% of the options" for road bikes.
> There are 3 choices:
>
> 1. brifters (33%)
> 2. DTs (33%)
> 3. bar-ends (33%)
> -----------------
> 99%
>
> All are readily available if you got the bucks. All are "options." I'm looking for that lost 1%.

We recently scored a stash of NOS road GripShiftas!

See: http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/derailers.html#roadgrip

Sheldon "One Percenter" Brown +------------------------------------------------------+
| If a man does not keep pace with his companions, | perhaps it is because he hears a different
| drummer. | Let him step to the music which he hears, | however measured or far away. -- Thoreau |
+------------------------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

 

[Mike Latondress]

The Pomeranian <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
>
> Michael Doleman wrote:
>>
>
>> When I got BACK into serious road cycling about 7 years ago I was sorta dismayed to find that STI
>> or Ergo represented 99% of the options available in the modern market.
>
> Since STI and ERGO are both brifters, I think they represent "33% of the options" for road bikes.
> There are 3 choices:
>
> 1. brifters (33%)
> 2. DTs (33%)
> 3. bar-ends (33%)
> -----------------
> 99%
>
> All are readily available if you got the bucks. All are "options." I'm looking for that lost 1%.
>

I don't agree that DT are equally available on the new bikes I see as most of them arn't set up for
downtube for shifters so choices are limited to brifters or bar-ends.

 

[Mike S.]

Try Kelly (the 'cross bike guys)

Mike "Ryan Cousineau" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Michael
> Doleman) wrote:
>
> > I do admit, though, that for fast road riding on the rolling terrain of the SF bay area and
> > Sierra foothills, it's quite nice to have the shifting right up there under your fingertips. My
> > ultimate solution has been to find an old set of Suntour Command shifters. These are wonderful
> > units which, in my opinion, offer the best of all possible worlds. They mount independantly of
> > the brake lever, are index or friction, quite durable (simple design), and actually can be
> > acutated from many more positions than either STI or Ergo.
> >
> > It's too bad Suntour is defunct and also that no-one picked up on this design, as it makes much
> > sense (hear my plea, Paul Component Engineering!). The only drawback is that for folks with
> > smaller hands and/or short fingers, I can imagine it to be a bit difficult to get the RH lever
> > into the highest and lowest cog position. I am sure that if someone picked-up the ball on this
> > design, though, the rough-edges could be worked-out.
>
> Argh! I can't remember the details, but there are one or more companies making mounts that put DT
> shifters on a mount very close to the brake hoods. It emulates most of the Command design, though
> with only a single DT-type lever, not the giant wingnut I see in pictures of the Suntour design.
>
> --
> Ryan Cousineau, [email protected] http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

 

[Steven L. Sheff]

in article [email protected], Ryan Cousineau at [email protected] wrote on
01/15/2003 05:20 PM:

> Argh! I can't remember the details, but there are one or more companies making mounts that put DT
> shifters on a mount very close to the brake hoods. It emulates most of the Command design, though
> with only a single DT-type lever, not the giant wingnut I see in pictures of the Suntour design.

Kelly Take Offs.

http://www.kellybike.com/

--

Steven L. Sheffield stevens at veloworks dot com veloworks at worldnet dot ay tea tee dot net bellum
pax est libertas servitus est ignoratio vis est ess ay ell tea ell ay kay ee sea aye tee why you ti
ay aitch aitch tee tea pea colon [for word] slash [four ward] slash double-you double-yew double-ewe
dot veloworks dot com [four word] slash

 

[Sam Huffman]

[email protected] (Peter Headland) writes:

> > ... They also have limited trim adjustment for the front.
>
> Here's one I never get - what in the world do I want more trim adjustment for, exactly?

I guess to keep the chain from rubbing the FD.

> On my Longstaff custom (with ~44cm chainstays) I never have to trim the front (Ultegra/105
> triple) at all. On my Trek 5500 (shorter chainstays), I have two trim positions in each ring
> (DA), which is all that I need - more would just be a nuisance because they would require more
> conscious effort.

On my old double 105 Cannondale w/ DT shifters (friction for the front) I could access all 9 cogs
from either chainring if I really wanted to.

On my Ultegra triple equipped Habanero (40cm chainstay) I have never gotten a satisfactory range
of cogs. I can generally access 6/9 from the small ring, 8/9 from the middle ring, and 5/9 from
the big ring.

> The frequency with which I have heard this supposed Campy advantage mentioned leads me to believe
> that either there are a lot of badly setup Shimano transmissions out there, or that Campy actually
> needs constant trimming.

Maybe my bike isn't setup properly, but the people who built the bike are generally considered
experts, and the local shop who tweaked it is very highly thought of as well. I've made minor
adjustments that change _which_ 5 I can access from the big ring, but it's pretty frustrating not
having my 12, 13, or 14 available.

I do like STI for the rear but I'm planning to replace the front with a DT friction lever as soon as
I get frustrated enough.

Sam

 

[David L. Johnso]

On Tue, 14 Jan 2003 16:51:17 -0500, Thomas Reynolds wrote:

> 10K miles? I assume you are being a bit cynical. I have some RSX STI shifters with more than 33K
> miles and Dura Ace STIs with 12K. Both are still going strong.

A friend of mine only got that -- well, 13K -- and was annoyed. That's one year for him. I have seen
others fail with people saying that it was only a couple years old. Mileage may vary.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | And what if you track down these men and kill them, what if you _`\(,_ | killed all of us?
From every corner of Europe, hundreds, (_)/ (_) | thousands would rise up to take our places.
Even Nazis can't kill that fast. -- Paul Henreid (Casablanca).

 

[B A R R Y B U R]

Mike Latondresse wrote:
>
> I don't agree that DT are equally available on the new bikes I see as most of them arn't set up
> for downtube for shifters

More are than you think.

Last season, I broke an STI lever in a bike vs. wet, oiled RR tracks duel. I needed the bike up
and running quickly, and didn't have the time to replace the lever. This was a 2001 Trek aluminum
frame bike.

If the downtube cable adjuster is removed, the braze-on easily accepts a DT shifter. I rode with a
NOS Ultegra DT shifter on the rear cogs for two weeks.

FWIW, I never felt "unsafe" using the DT, but I sure did miss the brifter. I don't race, so I don't
really care how fast I shift, either. The comparison taught me that I prefer the brifters simply
because I find them more pleasant to ride with. <G>

Barry

 

[Jay Beattie]

"Jay Beattie" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
>
> "Tom Paterson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > >[email protected]
> >
> > >Then suddenly everyman wanted to ride such a bicycle and all hell broke loose. Among the
> > >problems were folks who fell while shifting. I don't know what you were doing in the 1970's but
> > >adults were getting on practically
their
> > >first bicycles at age 35+.
> >
> > The "bike explosion" of the early 70's brought in many "new" adult
> recreational
> > riders. Their childhood bikes were usually coaster-brake single
speeds
> (heavy
> > behavioral patterning). The rest follows; I'd guess that rec sales
far
> outstrip
> > "racer" buys most years.
> >
> > Here we are in the future. I like Ergo or even STI better than Huret
> Allvit.
> > YMMV.
>
> But the Allvit could withstand a nuclear blast -- so the cockroaches would have something to ride
> after the Big War. Cockroaches have lots
of
> hands, and taking one off the bars to shift is no problem.
>
> Anyway, Jobst's claim that STI was a response to the bicycle-boomers fear of riding one-handed
> seems a bit far fetched considering that STI was introduced in '94 -- long after the boom. The
> new-boomers and
those
> inclined to fall off their bikes were already riding ATBs with thumb shifters or grip shifters --
> and Camelbacks and giant Bell Biker helmets. In the beginning, STI was not marketed to the
> ringy-bell and knee-scrape crowd but was rather marketed to racers and wannabe racers -- the same
> people who were already buying NR and Dura Ace. That's how I remember it. -- Jay Beattie.

Ooops, '91 for STI. I was thinking of '84 for SIS. -- Jay Beattie.

 

[Mike Jacoubowsk]

> But the Allvit could withstand a nuclear blast -- so the cockroaches would have something to ride
> after the Big War. Cockroaches have lots of hands, and taking one off the bars to shift is no
> problem.

Only as long as the nuclear blast wasn't accompanied by much vibration; both front & rear Huret
derailleurs had a habit of losing the nuts & bolts that held everything in place. I remember
them well.

I thought I'd sit this thread out, as everything's been threaded-out before, but you did manage to
bring in something new (and something I had a *lot* of experience with).

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles http://www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

 

[John Albergo]

!

**** Durbin wrote:

>In another thread, Jobst Brandt postulated: "Fear of riding with only one hand on the bars got us
>away from downtube shifters...."
>
>Is that why most folks went to STI or Ergo shifters? Safety was not a consideration in my switch. I
>was just looking to be able to shift more quickly.
>
>I am wondering if other riders share Jobst's opinion on the reason that most riders switched to STI
>or Ergo shifters.
>
>**** Durbin Tallahassee