Raliegh Twenty Overhaul questions



S

Sirrus Rider

Guest
About a year and a half ago I scored a pair of Raleigh Twenties off of
E-pay. One was mostly ridable the second is a bit of a basket case. One
green and one brown. Anyhow both need overhaul as the chains are dry and
rather gritty; consequently I want to pull the chains off to clean and
re-lube them . My question is what sort of chain does it use? Is it
masterlinked? Or do I use a chainbreaker? I looked for a master link but I
didn't find one. (It didn't jump out at me)

The green one is the one that is in very good (ridable) condition and in
correspondence with Sheldon Brown I determined that the dynohub (Sturmey
Archer gh6) is missing parts (Bad news), but still generates power. After
very carefully dismantling it and regreasing it (this one had no oil port
on the axel housing) determined that the both right side and left side cones
are flat wrong for the hub. In face the left (small) side leaves the
bearings exposed! My long term goal is to follow Shedlon's example and
convert one or both of them into what I term "Product Improved" Raleigh
Twenties with one following the spirit of the classic English three-speed
(but more than likely do 8speeds with the Sturmey Archer 8 speed rear hub)
by being set up for commuting.

For the short term to get one back on the road I'm probably going to steal
the more conventional front wheel from the brown one and when funds become
available have a new wheelset created for each bike over time. Seeing the
green had an Sturmey Archer GH6 hub I'm inclined to try to stay close to the
original spirit of this particular bike and install an updated generatorhub
in it place along with new allow rims. My question on this is: Which
generator hub to use? I like the idea of using the new Sturmey Archer X-FDD
dynohub(Front dynohub with an integral drum brake) to keep an all English
flavor to the bike, but in researching what to do I read that dynohubs have
to be designed/optimzed to the wheel size the hub is going to used with. I
can't seem to find any specs for this Sturmey Archer to know if it would
work optimally on the 20" wheel size and the only manufacturer that seems to
make a "dynohub" for 20" 36 spoke wheels is SON; however, no one has a price
listed for this dyno hub. (And I'm suspecting it might be a case of if you
have to ask the price you probably can't afford it.). I would also consider
the Nexus, but it doesn't come as a 36 holer. What is the general consensus
on generator hubs? What would you do if you had a pair of Twenties to play
with?


John
 
L

landotter

Guest
Sirrus Rider wrote:
[R20snip]
My question is what sort of chain does it use? Is it
> masterlinked? Or do I use a chainbreaker? I looked for a master link but I
> didn't find one. (It didn't jump out at me)
>


It can use whatever chain you've got, from a 6/7 speed number to a pink
bmx model. I suggest a KMC single speed chain in gold, as it's
inexpensive and impresses the ladies.

[snip]

>My long term goal is to follow Shedlon's example and
> convert one or both of them into what I term "Product Improved" Raleigh
> Twenties with one following the spirit of the classic English three-speed
> (but more than likely do 8speeds with the Sturmey Archer 8 speed rear hub)
> by being set up for commuting.
>


AFAIK, the SA8 hub is 130mm spacing. No big deal to respace the drops,
but if you don't want to bother, an Sram P5 hub should fit as is.
 
W

Werehatrack

Guest
On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 02:09:46 -0600, "Sirrus Rider"
<[email protected]> may have said:

>About a year and a half ago I scored a pair of Raleigh Twenties off of
>E-pay. One was mostly ridable the second is a bit of a basket case. One
>green and one brown. Anyhow both need overhaul as the chains are dry and
>rather gritty; consequently I want to pull the chains off to clean and
>re-lube them . My question is what sort of chain does it use? Is it
>masterlinked? Or do I use a chainbreaker? I looked for a master link but I
>didn't find one. (It didn't jump out at me)


It could have just about any kind of regular bike chain on it. The OE
chain did not use a snaplink. To remove the chain in the absence of a
snaplink, no "special" tool is required, just a regular bike chain
breaker.

>...What would you do if you had a pair of Twenties to play
>with?


I'd probably get nagged about "what, we needed two more of those
little ones?"

After that, I think I would be tempted to follow what you've outlined.
I'd start running daily searches on eBay to come up with a suitable
genhub for the one that's generatorless now, and a pair of gearhubs to
update both. I wouldn't worry about whether the replacement hubs are
optimized for 20 inch wheels; the worst that can happen is that you'll
end up with a hub that was designed for 26", and the output will be
higher than you expected. (It's unwise to use a 20"-optimized hub on
a 26" wheel, as it won't have much output at low speeds.) For the hub
that has the wrong cones installed, my personal short-term solution
would be dependent on the cones that are present. If they will
function effectively with the hub but are simply unsuitable due to
lack of sealing, I'd build leather temporary shields (this is actually
just using tech that's from the earliest days of bicycles), take
measurements of the seal bore in the hub and other relevant
dimensions, and in My Copious Spare Time[TM] start a rummage search
through the local shops to try to locate more suitable replacements.
In the end, I suspect I'd probably end up cobbling together a mandrel
and peeling a set of dust shields out of aluminum by hand; it's
amazing what you can do with a set of files and a drill press if
you're determined, careful and patient, but that's not everyone's cup
of tea.



--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
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S

Sheldon Brown

Guest
John Lucci wrote:

> > My question is what sort of chain does it use? Is it
> > masterlinked? Or do I use a chainbreaker? I looked for a master link but I
> > didn't find one. (It didn't jump out at me)


There will almost certainly be a master link.

A well-meaning person wrote:

> It can use whatever chain you've got, from a 6/7 speed number to a pink
> bmx model.


'Fraid not. The stock chainring and sprocket are only for 1/8" wide
chain.

See: http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/chains-wide.html

> >My long term goal is to follow Shedlon's example and
> > convert one or both of them into what I term "Product Improved" Raleigh
> > Twenties with one following the spirit of the classic English three-speed
> > (but more than likely do 8speeds with the Sturmey Archer 8 speed rear hub)
> > by being set up for commuting.
> >

>
> AFAIK, the SA8 hub is 130mm spacing. No big deal to respace the drops,
> but if you don't want to bother, an Sram P5 hub should fit as is.


The brake-less Sturmey-Archer 8-speed uses similar spacing to the AW,
somewhere in the 116-118 mm range. Fit nicely into my Raleigh Twenty.

http://sheldonbrown.org/raleigh-twenty.html

As to the generator hub issue, using one with a smaller wheel should
work OK as long as you use a modern lamp, such as Busch & Müller, that
includes solid-state voltage regulation circuitry.

I used to have a Moulton with a Dynohub (349 mm / 16" wheels) and was
never able to find a bulb that would both give good light _and_
reasonable lifespan, but that was before zener diodes and the like.
http://sheldonbrown.org/moulton-deluxe.html (That's a brand new page I
put up yesterday.)

Sheldon "Twenty" Brown
+----------------------------------------+
| Yes Britain set the world ablaze, |
| In good King George's glorious days! |
| --W.S. Gilbert |
+----------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
 
L

landotter

Guest
Sheldon Brown wrote:

> The brake-less Sturmey-Archer 8-speed uses similar spacing to the AW,
> somewhere in the 116-118 mm range. Fit nicely into my Raleigh Twenty.
>
> http://sheldonbrown.org/raleigh-twenty.html



The brakeless SA8 hub's spacing is claimed to be 124mm. 14mm is a bit
much to "spring apart" I'd say. And you end up with that awful twist
shifter. With the Sram, you can use a 5 speed trigger shifter, which is
inherently less goofy than some goldbergian twist setup.

http://www.cycle-world.co.uk/products.php?plid=m3b0s336p334&z=526
 
W

Werehatrack

Guest
On Tue, 16 Jan 2007 10:36:24 -0600, Werehatrack
<[email protected]> may have said:

>It could have just about any kind of regular bike chain on it. The OE
>chain did not use a snaplink.


Correction: Although I am informed that the OE chain did use a
snaplink, whether it remains present will depend on who replaced it.

A snaplink is a convenient thing to have on such a bike, for a variety
of reasons. I'd have used one anyway, because I prefer using those
instead of trying to push a pin back in.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
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W

Werehatrack

Guest
On 16 Jan 2007 08:53:13 -0800, "landotter" <[email protected]> may
have said:

>The brakeless SA8 hub's spacing is claimed to be 124mm. 14mm is a bit
>much to "spring apart" I'd say.


Eh, I've seen that much done more than once. Seldom done well or
professionally, and not to good effect in most cases. One memorable
example was a 130mm-spacing wheel that was bludgeoned[1] into the rear
of a cheap OPC single-speed frame. The chain was bent in two places,
several of the cassette teeth were twisted and/or deformed, and the
rest of the "bike" was just as abused. It was a police auction unit.
the only useful part on the whole thing was the freehub.

>And you end up with that awful twist
>shifter. With the Sram, you can use a 5 speed trigger shifter, which is
>inherently less goofy than some goldbergian twist setup.


Ugh. Gripshifts. I hate gripshifts. I have yet to find one that I
can stand. Of course, that's a matter of personal reference; I'm
given to understand that there are people who really like them, and
want them on all of their bikes[2]. (Maybe that's how the Kent
Denali[3] ended up with a three-piece handle bar.)



[1] probably literally; the frame showed signs of the use of a big
hammer in that area.

[2] I keep expecting to see a single-speed hit the market with fake
gripshifts as a fashion statement.

[3] yes, I know it's a BSO, not a "real bike". It's also one of the
most goldbergian assemblies I've seen as a mainstream product.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
 
S

Sheldon Brown

Guest
I wrote (from memory):
>
> > The brake-less Sturmey-Archer 8-speed uses similar spacing to the AW,
> > somewhere in the 116-118 mm range. Fit nicely into my Raleigh Twenty.
> >
> > http://sheldonbrown.org/raleigh-twenty.html

>

An anonymous poster replied:
>
> The brakeless SA8 hub's spacing is claimed to be 124mm. 14mm is a bit
> much to "spring apart" I'd say. And you end up with that awful twist
> shifter. With the Sram, you can use a 5 speed trigger shifter, which is
> inherently less goofy than some goldbergian twist setup.
>
> http://www.cycle-world.co.uk/products.php?plid=m3b0s336p334&z=526


OK, today I managed to make it in to the shop, and hobbled upstairs to
measure the one we have in stock.

Here's the skinny:

It is supplied at 124 mm, but that includes _two_ 6 mm thick locknuts
on the left side.

You really only need one cone locknut, so if you remove one of 'em you
wind up with 118 mm spacing.

If you want to go narrower than that, you can substitute a standard 3
mm thick locknut, bringing the spacing to 115 mm.

I think that's what I did on my personal Twenty, but it's difficult for
me to get down to the cellar where it lives to check it out.

Sheldon "Spaceman" Brown
+-------------------------------------------------+
| One measurement is worth 50 expert opinions |
| --Howard Sutherland |
+-------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
 
D

Donald Gillies

Guest
If my rusty memory serves me correctly, 1/8" chains had master links
when i was a kid (1960's and 1970's).

The 3/32 chains didn't have master links until later - perhaps in the
late 1980's. Maybe this is because the 3/32 chains kept changing widths.

In any event, a cyclo chain tool can still break a 5/6/7/8 speed chain
and put it back together again - ANY CHAIN - EVEN AN SRAM WITH A
MASTERLINK. You just need some balls and finesse to do it, that's
all.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA
 
W

Werehatrack

Guest
On 16 Jan 2007 17:45:16 -0800, [email protected] (Donald Gillies) may
have said:

>In any event, a cyclo chain tool can still break a 5/6/7/8 speed chain
>and put it back together again - ANY CHAIN - EVEN AN SRAM WITH A
>MASTERLINK. You just need some balls and finesse to do it, that's
>all.


Just don't do what one nearby genius tried, and attempt to press the
pin out of a snaplink using the chain tool.


--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
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J

James Thomson

Guest
"Sheldon Brown" <[email protected]> a écrit:

> An anonymous poster replied:


>> The brakeless SA8 hub's spacing is claimed to be 124mm.


> It is supplied at 124 mm, but that includes _two_ 6 mm thick
> locknuts on the left side.


There are two versions, a 36h version that comes with a 170mm axle, 124mm
OLN, and a 28h version with 155mm axle, 116mm OLN:

http://www.sturmey-archer.com/hubs_8spd_XRF8.php

You need to scroll down in the info panel to see the details of the 28h
model.

James Thomson
 
P

(PeteCresswell)

Guest
Per Donald Gillies:
>In any event, a cyclo chain tool can still break a 5/6/7/8 speed chain
>and put it back together again - ANY CHAIN - EVEN AN SRAM WITH A
>MASTERLINK. You just need some balls and finesse to do it, that's
>all.


Problem I see with that is that one doesn't know that has exercised insufficient
balls and finesse until it parts under load.

And, depending on one's riding position/degree of effort when it parted, one
might wind up with considerably bigger balls than when one started - at least
for a week or so....
--
PeteCresswell