Ramping on Campy chain rings

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by wvcajun, Jan 11, 2008.

  1. wvcajun

    wvcajun New Member

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    I have a compact campy chorus crankset with 50/34 teeth. Ever since about 300 miles it has shifted like crap. Ie - it has an immense amount of trouble going from small to large rings in the front. I have adjusted the front derailleur numerous times. It will shift good about 20 miles after a lube then same old crap. I looked at the little shifting pins that protrude from the ring and they don't seem to be sticking out far enough compared to other rings from other manufacturers. Did mine wear prematurely or was it a flawed design? Should I replace with OEM or different rings?

    Please help!

    wvcajun
     
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  2. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    Did you originally cobble the bike together, yourself?

    By chance, are you using a Shimano 10-speed chain, or equivalent, instead of a Campagnolo 10-speed chain, or equivalent?

    Which front derailleur are you using?

    Since MY observation is that Campagnolo shifters [I'm presuming you are using Campagnolo shifters with the "compact" crankset] can work well with OLDER, unramped 8-speed chainrings (that's one of my great discoveries as it lets me use up my stash of older chainrings), without seeing your setup, I would reckon that you are using too narrow a chain for the front derailleur's cage ...

    So, there isn't any reason to replace your current chainrings with OTHER chainrings, IMO ... besides, you'd have to enlarge the hidden, 5th mouting hole AND the "pin" that is designed to catch the chain on an over-shift will be in the "wrong" place if you install a non-Campagnolo chainring (TOKEN may make compact chainrings for Campagnolo compact cranks) ...

    Specifically, several years ago, I set up a bike with Campagnolo shifters + 50/34 crankset on which I had installed a set of unramped 8-speed chainrings + a 9-speed Shimano chain + a 9-speed ULTEGRA 6500 front derailleur (I generally use Shimano front derailleurs with my Campagnolo shifters, BTW). There were no problems shifting between the inner & outer ring.

    Presuming you are using the wrong chain, instead of whatever chain you are using, if you don't want to use a Campagnolo 10-speed chain, you can use a SRAM 89R chain ... a 9-speed Shimano chain is a little wider, but YOU can probably use it, too.

    If you continue to have problems, the easiest way to exorcise the bike's drivetrain is by sending me the crankset so that I can dispose of it properly ... kidding!

    BTW. I actually use thee-shift-clicks to move the chain from the inner to the outer chainring, and vice-versa ... as long as the front derailleur's stops are set properly whereby the chain doesn't drop off the inner of outer rings, I figure it's fine.

    By chance, IF you are trying to use Shimano shifters wth your compact Chorus crankset, then you may need a TRIPLE-capable left/front shifter which will allow you to use one of the extra indents to move the chain sufficiently -- I had briefly, intentionally mis-matched a 9-speed Shimano 105 shifter with an XT front derailleur & double crankset AND (again) needed three-shift-clicks to move the derailleur cage sufficiently to shift the chain from the inner to outer chainring.
     
  3. rudycyclist

    rudycyclist New Member

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    I would check the limits on the FD. If it has trouble getting up, its probably because the FD limits are not set high enough. The chain IS NOT the issue. I have used several Shimano chains with my Campy groupos and have had no issue. I actually preferred them over Campy's because they were cheaper and stronger. I agree, it is not your chainrings either. I would suggest playing with your FD a little more or take it into your lbs and see what they say.
     
  4. Peter@vecchios

    [email protected] New Member

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    Not the chainring or the chain(Campag ultra chains are the 5.9mm as shimano). I think it's a FD adjust issue. make sure the FD is low enough(1mm clearance) and tail out enough to allow the bump on the inside of the cage to pick the chain up to get it to the big ring. Assuming Campag Chorus shifters? Compact FD is not needed, BTW. Compact cranks around way before any compact FD.

    Redusing pedal pressure while shifting will help a lot also. It is not the 'automatic' transmission type that the rear is.
     
  5. Peter@vecchios

    [email protected] New Member

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    Cuz shimano road left STI is not compatible with shimano MTB front ders..not the double/triple shifter issue.
     
  6. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    I was trying to explain that you CAN make some incompatible parts work ... but, a 10-speed Shimano chain (if that is what wvcajun is using) is not one of them, particularly if s/he is using Shimano shifters (which s/he has not clarified, yet) ...

    As many of us know, Campagnolo shifters should not experience any problems shifting in the front unless the person who set up the bike has made some serious errors ...

    BUT, Shimano shifters are generally less tolerant to mis-matched components unless you happen to have a TRIPLE shifter and are only using a DOUBLE crank.
     
  7. wvcajun

    wvcajun New Member

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    I am using an all chorus setup. The chain is a Wipperman campy-compatable 10spd chain. The FD is the compact specific that was ordered with the crankset. The FD adjustment is exactly as the Park "Big Blue Book of Bicycle Repair" shows and states. I have tried soft pedaling, slow shifting, quick shifting, stop pedaling and pin the chain agaisnt the ring then pedal, and anything else I could think of to no avail. All the components were originally installed on a Fondriest frame from Piedmont Cycles of Piedmont , NY. I switched frames myself (my first such undertaking) with moderate success. I say moderate because I 1st had the normal 53/39 setup on there, then switched to the compact. I didn't realize I needed a different BB, but I eventually figured it out without the help of my LBS.

    So here I am, still with a FD that upshifts like CRAP.

    wvcajun
     
  8. Peter@vecchios

    [email protected] New Member

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    You mentioned changing the BB..so you have a 102mm square taper BB with a Chorus CT crank-correct? I would also use a Campagnolo ultra 10s chain(5.9mm), not the Wipperman which is 6.2mm and not as flexible as the Campag one or a shimano 10s chain which is also 5.9mm and flexible when new.
     
  9. wvcajun

    wvcajun New Member

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    So you're thinking all I need is a new chain? If that is the case, is it necessary to spend $50 on a chain or can I get a good value out of something less expensive? The rear shifts fine BTW. It took me several sessions to get that where I wanted it.


    Thanks
    MG
     
  10. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    Since I think going to a narrower chain would only aggravate your shifting situation (and, I could be wrong), I have to ask -- Did you chose to route your derailleur cable(s) behind the handlebar instead of alongside the brake cable?

    If so, I think THAT could be an aggravating factor because it was my observation (several years ago) that the rear routing does not allow the cable to move as freely ...

    AND, if you aren't using Campagnolo cables & housing, the situation is exacerbated unless you rememberd to lube the cable(s), properly ... something, most people just don't do.

    Regardless, f the clamp-type/-size is the same on your Shimano 105 front derailleur, try it on your recalictrant compact Chorus setup before you opt for a new chain.
     
  11. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    BTW. Peter, I know that the Shimano STI ROAD shifters are not supposed to be compatible with Shimano MTB front derailleurs ... I mated the two to prove OR disprove that it could be done -- that is, I found that if you allow THREE INDEX clicks (a double STI shifter only has two, of course), you can move the front derailleur sufficiently in either direction to shift properly on any double crankset.

    That was, before-and-now, a long winded way of suggesting that the OP should not have ANY problem shifting if s/he also allows three index clicks to move his/her front derailleur to-and-fro.
     
  12. Peter@vecchios

    [email protected] New Member

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    hard to say w/o seeing it but a shimano or Campagnolo Veloce ultra chain is what I would do.
     
  13. Peter@vecchios

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    I guess we are gonna disagree on this one. We pull the Campag housing as soon as possible and use teflon lined 5mm housing and brass ferrules. Altho not the crappy 4mm stuff shimano is, is it 4.5mm and 5mm allows for freedom of movement. Also, we route behind if there is a groove in the handlebars, the stem isn't short and the cable stops aren't on the headtube.

    BUT on bikes we haven't set up, if it is behind and the routing is a little weird, it still doesn't have much(any?) effect on FD action.
     
  14. alfeng

    alfeng Well-Known Member

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    FWIW. I guess it just comes down to my not understanding what else the problem could be with the OP's setup if it isn't the cable routing (although I use Shimano front derailleurs with my Campagnolo shifters, I don't think the OP's particular front derailleur would actually be the problem) ... and, my suggestion was colored by my experience ...

    Regardless, I defer to you with regard to cable routing ...

    However, I doubt I will ever use the rear-routing because MY momentary experience with rear-routing of the derailleur cable housing was disappointing by comparison with routing the housing in the front of the handlebar (yes, the handlebar had a groove in the rear, too)... and, apparently my being recalcitrant in this matter, I don't feel a need to replicate what I perceived to be an inferior experience when the front-routing has always worked for me -- hey, maybe I just klutzed up the other installation! So, OLD-style-or-current levers, I route the derailleur housing in the front of the handlebar!

    I definitely concur with using housing with larger inner diameter, when available -- I use what I have & don't have the luxury of having someone else (i.e., a customer) pay for what I use ... the exception was substituting the derailleur housing for Shimano STI shifters with brake cable housing that I had.

    I'm not racing NOR have I pretended to be a racer since ~1978 when a banker asked me what I did ... I simply use the Campagnolo housing/cable combination as a benchmark for low resistance & light action ... no doubt, some other combinations, as you have discovered, are better.
     
  15. Peter@vecchios

    [email protected] New Member

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    I think both of us are struggling to make suggestions to this gent w/o seeing and working on the bike. Probably the best suggestion is to take it to a FD 'guru' and let him muck with it. It has to be something, as in my experience, the only poor shifting Campag system FD issues were when Campag was mated to a FSA crank. All the 'all Campag' systems, which is remarkably tolerate to poor setup. work pretty well regardless.
     
  16. sideshow_bob

    sideshow_bob New Member

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    the only other thing i can suggest given what has been covered is the OP says he's 'adjusted the fd numerous times'. we are making the assumption that that adjustment is being done correctly.

    is the cage parallel to the chainrings? whats the frame its connected to and whats the clearance between the cage and the big ring? is it a braze mount or a clamp mount? i've seen some bikes that use braze ons that simply are not adequately positioned for compacts.

    as one example cervelo team soloists. to get a correct fit on this, i needed to file/dremel the bottom of the mount slot out and bend the braze mount.

    ultimately if as you say, it shifts ok, then doesn't after a period of time, i could only see two reasons for that.

    a) something is moving (like the fd clamp, or one of the frame stop adjustors)
    b) something is binding (the cable in the sheath, or the cable at a contact point like the bb guide)

    ruling out a) should be simple. b) i'd have a go at replacing the cable and also inspecting the bb guide for any signs of wear, or grooving. i'd also lube this slightly with some tri flow or similar.

    one thing that is for certain it's not your rings or the design.

    --brett
     
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