RANS QUALITY



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RANS products are VERY high quality, [i'm not riding one now either] BTW, what bike are you riding?

Lawrence Turner wrote:
> I disagree. Rans decision - economical or not - was to outsource mfg oversees. They risked quality
> for the sake of price. They profit from the advantaages, why not blame them for the downfalls of
> their decision?
>
> Pop Quiz: you visit your LBS and see two great looking bikes side by side. As far as you can tell,
> they're identical, but one is 30% cheaper. You inquire on the price difference only to be told,
> "The cheaper model is manufactured overseas. We can't be totally sure it was built the way the
> designer intended, and it is also subject to improper packaging. Because it was built overseas to
> save on costs, certain parts of the bike may wear out sooner than intended."
>
> Which bike do you choose? I know which choice I would make. I am willing to pay for quality. I
> also like to see stuff made in America. Other people will do anything to save a dime. I think most
> are in the same category as me, but most bents are targeted to the penny pinchers.
 
They REPLACED IT TWO TIMES NOW! it's not like they told the guy, "oh well, sorry for your luck and
dissatification" geez.

Dave Miller wrote:
> On 31 May 2003 16:02:56 -0700, [email protected] (Lawrence Turner) wrote:
>
>
>>I don't get all the apologizing on behalf of RANS. Some seem to be blaming the dealer, the builder
>>in Taiwan, when this is ENTIRELY Rans' fault!
>>
>
>
> ----Disclaimer : I have a V-Rex and have had nothing but good experiences with RANS-------
>
>
> To me " fault" isn't the issue as much as RESPONSILITY. It's RANS product and their name they are
> selling ....and their name that is being hurt I might add...and they are RESPONSIBLE. They
> slelected the manufacturer and the reseller (LBS)
>
> I own a business and understand how they might have a wayward vendor or reseller that is causing
> quality problems - but the problems are NOT the customers.
>
> The bike shop is selling their reputation as well.
>
> My vote - Boo on RANS and Boo on the not so local LBS
 
My thought has always been that Globalization is nice providing the people in the country buying the
products are not being royally screwed via lost jobs...not sure I wrote that right. It is not
Nationalism. The one argument I keep seeing for using Taiwan for frames is this economy of scale
thing AND that in North America we lack the advanced technologies to produce high quality product at
a low cost. Harley Davidson has invested the farm in Laser guided welding, tube cutters and pipe
benders...all located in the same State as RANS. One major downside to any company investing big
bucks in Laser guided anything and or robotics is under utilization of said technology. Perhaps RANS
could do a deal with HD to have the framesets made locally? HD went to Porsche in Germany to use the
advanced technologies and then add some of it to their US production facilities...some sections of
the new Harleys are being fabricated at a German Porsche plant...cool eh. IF all the bent makers in
North America could get together and do an estimate of how many frames they'd need for a production
run for one year, had the jigs available, had everything on CAD....then you could have "one" company
set up in the USA to do everyone's frames and Taiwan would be a distant memory. The problem being
getting everyone together, choosing the common technology they are all willing to accept and doing a
set price (regardless of) how many frames are being done re: same price for a company needing 100
frames or a company needing 1000 frames...it levels the playing field this way and will stop small
companies looking at Taiwan again because they have to pay more in the USA for their frames than say
a larger bent maker pays. Would think you'd have better QA if ALL the bent frames came from one
facility in the USA. Some saving to the environment re: less sea shipping (very minor and the ships
don't carry just RANS frames alone...okay a weak argument on the environment side). Maybe even
having such a facility in the USA will add to the pollution problem in America. Lets move all the
heavy polluting industries to China and let them choke on the fumes and contaminate their ground
water logic....then Americans end up being consumers only...but without a manufacturing base the
wages dry up and you can not afford most of the products you need to buy etc., etc.. One production
facility serving every bent and maybe a few DF makers located in the USA using state of the art
technologies, the government and banks would line up to fund such a facility...because you'd have
full utililization of the equipment...no periods of the equipment sitting idle and unproductive.

Dragging this out further...I observed a few years ago that (every) bent maker complains that they
cannot afford to advertise their products because their market is too small. Advertising to the
masses IS a costly deal and the financial rewards (sales) would hardly justify the expense. RCN and
B.R.O.L. are the only active players in letting the world know what bents are available in the
marketplace...and word of mouth. Small and very limited attempts at glossy brochures at bike shows
and of course websites few in the UN-Bent world every visit.

How about ONE marketing firm doing ALL the bent makers, one ad campaign for the heaving bent and
un-bent masses, get some national print medium coverage going. Have (every) bent maker contribute $
to the ONE selected Marketing firm.

Bent designers/makers tend to be really good at their craft but are "lost in space" when it comes to
letting the world know they exist and what products they make. There really needs to be some
National organization to actively promote the products made by bent companies...the status quo just
is not working very well. I am always floored when I see someone post a message that they saw a bent
on TV or an Avatar in a movie or the Discovery channel interviews **** Ryan etc. There needs to be a
more "in your face" regular exposure of bents to get any sales momentum going.

I used to joke that what we need is for someone at CNN to get a video clip of Osama Bin Laden
and Saddam Hussein riding a GRR and RANS V2 down the road just as the 101st Airbourne are
driving the opposite direction on the same road. That it would take something that dramatic to
get Bents well known.

I personally CANNOT live with riding a bent for another 25 years and not see another bent on the
road. The 1st time I put my rump on a bent in 1978 I realized I had discovered something totally
awesome and I wanted to share and "turn on" everyone else. Unfortunately my having a reputation as
someone who does not have all his cylinders firing at the same time probably convinced the heaving
masses to avoid trying what I rode...lest they too are seen as an un-orthodox Nut Bar. When I see
another bent on the road I have an urge to chase after it...and often do and I have had a few people
on bents chase after me. We are soooo rare still we seek each other out. The "Secret Bent Handshake"
among bent riders is we each firmly shake the others hand BUT we (never) make eye contact because we
are too preoccupied looking at the bent the other guy is riding. There is also Bent-Envy, which
involves the "Secret Bent Handshake" including Drool dripping from the corner of our mouth due to
massive saliva buildup as we Lust after the bent the other chap is riding.

I'd like to see a lot more people getting bent and our numbers are increasing, but ever so slowly
and I wonder about negative population growth re: with so many seniors bent and they will stop
riding in a decade or two and then die, we need to get younger people involved in greater numbers to
offset our aging riders.

My wife just asked if I thought anyone would read all this. Oh Yeah honey dearest....the weather is
sooo awful what else would anyone be doing today.

PS...J.R. are you riding bent in the Becel Challenge today?
----------------------------------------------------------
"john riley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] (Lawrence Turner) wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > I disagree. Rans decision - economical or not - was to outsource mfg oversees. They risked
> > quality for the sake of price. [...]
>
> If they did it because of price, it would be "economical" not "not". And as I said elsewhere, I
> don't know that that is the primary reason. It is difficult to have the employees and facilities
> and to keep them fully utilized with a handful of low volume products. I think both RANS and Peek
> did it more for logistical reasons than price.
>
> I haven't done component by component matching, but it looks to me like Taiwan bikes and US frame
> bikes are often in the same price range. _Maybe_ the companies with the Taiwan frames have better
> margins, but I don't think either of us know for sure. These bikes are low volume either way.
>
> Outsourcing spreads the risk to other companies who may be in a better position to utilize
> capacity. That said, I recognize that outsourcing may make quality control more challenging, but I
> don't think it makes it impossible.
>
> If you want to buy a bike with a US frame (note that the components, the actual moving, friction
> producing parts are also from various places) that's fine; they are available. But that is no
> guarentee of quality. Quality is not dependent on country of origin. Some US frame bikes have had
> issues too.
>
> John Riley
 
"Zippy the Pinhead" skrev

> >(2 polish bikes. One of which is state of the art.)
>
> Yeah, but is it HIGHLY polish?

Actually its quasilow. ;o)
 
No rad-lock on either of the two damaged ones. The printed material accompanying the bikes said it
did, but it did not.
 
"Wile E. Coyote" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> My thought has always been that Globalization is nice providing the people in the country buying
> the products are not being royally screwed via lost jobs...not sure I wrote that right. It is not
> Nationalism. The one argument I keep seeing for using Taiwan for frames is this economy of scale
> thing AND that in North America we lack the advanced technologies to produce high quality product
> at a low cost. Harley Davidson has invested the farm in Laser guided welding, tube cutters and
> pipe benders...all located in the same State as RANS. [...]

H-D is in Wisconsin and RANS is in Kansas. Do only people from Iowa know the difference? ;-)

I don't think this is about technology, I think it is about capital. The margins and ROI in the bike
business are not that great. It is different for Harley. OTOH nobody seems to be making much money
on anything these days, so now would be better time to float this than before the crash. ;-)

Could CCM do quality? Then you could get the CDN Gv't involved too.

>
> PS...J.R. are you riding bent in the Becel Challenge today?

You betcha. 50 K plus down and back from home. I'd have done the 75 if the loop was still open.
Might spring for the extra bucks next year, although "early start" doesn't seem like much of a
bargin when it is this cold. At least it wasn't raining. To see what we are talking about, see:

http://ww1.heartandstroke.ca/rideforheart/

JR
 
Is Bills delemma is that he couldn't deal with the dent on his new bike? One that could not be seen
without the feel test? Not his problem, if he can't, its the dealers problem and one that is the
dealers responsibility to deal with. I would have likely said, "Whats it worth to you not to have to
bring the bike back?" An sent him a check for the agreed upon amount or a shop credit on a future
purchase. As a dealer its my practice to throughly inspect a bike as I put it together. If I find
damage, I note it and contact the importer/manufacturer for remedy, I often photograph it. I reveal
known damage on the price ticket and discount the product. Sometimes its damage that may have
occured while the bike was on the floor, then it may be a time of sale discount or it may be an
added option. It could be this. "If you can live with it I'll throw in a nice seatbag" as I did with
a sale last week. The customer is happy, I'm happy. I am currently building up a STRADA Tour version
from a frame. It has a paint blem on the front of the bottom bracket. I got a discount from
Bacchetta and I will reduce the price to the buyer. I sold a Tailwind Friday, The buyer noticed a
small cosmetic defect in the front Primo Comet. No big deal, new tire. The offending Primo now
resides on a demo bike. IMO its a lot easier to rectify the problem by saying "What is it you would
like me to do?" and go from there.
--
Jude....///Bacchetta AERO St. Michaels and Tilghman Island.. Maryland Wheel Doctor Cycle and Sports,
Inc 1-800-586-6645 "baronn1" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> RANS was right, the LBS did let you down. As the reseller (dealer), what value did that LBS add to
> the transaction? Doesn't sound like they were very thorough, and you paid the price. It is
> incumbent upon the reseller
to
> properly assemble the product, and QA it prior to delivery. If RANS shipped the bike to you, and
> there was another issue, say
something
> mechanical, now they are faced with a dilemma. Was it a quality issue, or faulty assembly due to
> an inexperienced mechanic putting it together (*you may be a whiz, but they can't know that). I
> work for an computer manufacturer, and we would urge our customer to
seek
> out a different reseller, and possibly decommission that reseller if
things
> like this became the norm. I understand you may not a have a ready choice of another reseller, but
> exclusivity in an area doesn't excuse that
reseller
> from their responsibility.
>
>
> "Bill in Indiana" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > I used to own a Rans Rocket. It was a great and fast bike. I was a RANS Church member.
> >
> > Recently I decided to try a RANS VIVO. I picked up a new one at a wonderful bike shop but when I
> > got home I noticed a dent in the main tube. The paint was just fine, It almost appeared as if
> > the frame
> was
> > painted with the dent already in it.
> >
> > The bike shop ordered a new one and a week later I drove another 140
mile
> > round trip to exchange the bikes. They loaded the boxes on my trailer, as I agreed to
> put
> > it together.
> >
> > Got home and guess what? A DENT IN THE MAIN TUBE. This time it was in a different place. Called
> > RANS and they stated that their frames are made in Taiwan now (something I did know) and that
> > they don't open the boxes prior to shipping them to the
dealers.
> >
> > Trying to do them a favor, I wanted them to know the information because there is likely a
> > problem. What are the odds of a coincidence ? They were kind at first and were going to ship a
> frame
> > to my house. However, at the last minute the gentleman stated he would have to send it to the
> > bike shop, which will require me to drive another 140 mile round trip. He had taken my address
> > and told me that he would send it to me, only to be interrupted
by
> > someone (a **** I would assume) and came back to the phone to tell me I would have make another
> > round trip (3rd time) He got argumentative and tried to blame the bike shop for not checking the
> > bike (putting it together) before selling it to me. Ha! TERRIBLE QUALITY
> should
> > be caught be the bike shop owner, not the manufacturer!
> >
> > RANS SUCK (in my opinion) They chose to go to Taiwan and it appears
that
> > this has caused me 300 miles of driving and a several long distance
phone
> > calls. I used to be in the church, but they truly are not the same
> company
> > in my opinion. You decide for yourself, but beware of damaged bikes.
> >
>
 
Originally posted by Jude T. McGloin


IMO its a lot easier to rectify the problem by saying "What is it you would
like me to do?" and go from there.
--
>

I heartily agree. This is the approach that we take in the RV Industry all the time.

:cool:
 
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No! No! Burn down the church! Just kidding...some of you folks need some problems to deal with...

"g19glock1" <[email protected]> wrote in message =
news:[email protected]...
> Jude T. McGloin wrote:
> > IMO its a lot easier to rectify the problem by saying "What is it =
you
> > would like me to do?" and go from there.
> > --
> > >
>=20 20 20
> I heartily agree. This is the approach that we take in the RV Industry all the time.
>=20
> :cool:
>=20 20 20
> --
> G19 and a V-Rex
>=20 20
> >--------------------------<=20
> Posted via cyclingforums.com http://www.cyclingforums.com
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6.00.2800.1170" name=3DGENERATOR> <STYLE></STYLE> </HEAD> <BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>No! No! Burn down the = church!</FONT></DIV>
<DV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Just kidding...some of you folks need = some=20 <EM>problems</EM>
to deal with...</FONT></DIV>
<DVI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DVII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DVIII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>"g19glock1" <</FONT><A=20
href=3D"mailto:[email protected]"><FONT face=3DArial=20
size=3D2>[email protected]</FONT></A><FONT face=3DArial = size=3D2>>=20 wrote
in message </FONT><A = href=3D"news:[email protected]"><FONT=20 face=3DArial =
size=3D2>news:[email protected]</FONT></A><FONT=20 face=3DArial
size=3D2>...</FONT></DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>> = Jude T.=20 McGloin
wrote:<BR>> > IMO its a lot easier to rectify = the=20 problem by saying "What
is it you<BR>> > would like me to = do?" and=20 go from there.<BR>>
> --<BR>> > ><BR>> = <BR>>=20 <BR>> <BR>> I heartily agree.
This is the approach that we take in = the RV=20 Industry<BR>> all the time.<BR>>
<BR>> :cool:<BR>> <BR>> = <BR>>=20 <BR>> --<BR>> G19 and a V-Rex<BR>>
<BR>> <BR>>=20 >--------------------------< <BR>> Posted via =
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J.R.I'll have to check out this H-D being in Wisconsin, I know they are based there...but me thinks
the new bike I was talking about (partially made at the Porsche plant) was located in Kansas.
Cannot remember the name of the new HD model.

As for the Becel 50 Km ride...good that you made it. My wife and I will (fer sure) do it next year.
I have been trying to get the organizers to allow Power-Assisted DFs and bents to ride as well...in
our own time slot. .
> > Harley Davidson has invested the farm in Laser guided welding, tube
cutters
> > and pipe benders...all located in the same State as RANS. [...]
>
> H-D is in Wisconsin and RANS is in Kansas. Do only people from Iowa know the difference? ;-)
 
"Bill in Indiana" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...

> Recently I decided to try a RANS VIVO. I picked up a new one at a wonderful bike shop but when I
> got home I noticed a dent in the main tube. The paint was just fine, It almost appeared as if the
> frame was painted with the dent already in it.

Bill,

Not to make light of your grief But...............

"when I got home I noticed a dent"......

I would tuck this into my "CAVEAT EMPTOR" file and move on.

Jerry
 
> I wouldn't "hang" RANS or the dealer, very unfortunate, but they are trying to rectify it, RANS is
> one of the best in customer service.

They *have* been. They've been very good to me sometimes. They sent me new seat mesh when I called
to ask them about whether my mesh should have been stretched beyond use after only 600 miles. But
the last couple of emails I sent them (three, actually) regarding seat retention, a bent main tub
(the result of my having cranked the seat QR too tightly in a vain effort to stop seat slide) and
requesting information on Rocket touchup paint (my frame finish has more holes in it than i an Iraqi
tank), have been COMPLETELY ignored.

I hope the folks at RANS see this thread and react accordingly. A few small impressions can make a
difference in a world like the 'bent world. Two months ago, I woulda said there's no one better in
CS, but now, I have to put RANS back in the 'satisfactory' or 'not quite' category...

In my case, it would have cost them next to nothing to email me and say, sure, $2 bucks a bottle, or
five, whatever. (Although rumor has it, this stuff was supposed to come with my bike.) Sure, they
took a financial hit on sending me that free seat mesh, and it made me happy, but what I remember
now is being ignored...

It's almost like an evil twin took over at CS...
 
"Jude T. McGloin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]... <snip>
> IMO its a lot easier to rectify the problem by saying "What is it
you
> would like me to do?" and go from there.
> --
> Jude....///Bacchetta AERO St. Michaels and Tilghman Island.. Maryland Wheel Doctor Cycle and
> Sports, Inc 1-800-586-6645
Amen to that. My first lession as a new Retail manager 25 years ago was to listen carefully to the
customer with a complaint. More often than not, they would tell you how to make them happy. If they
did not, you asked.

Tom thompson
 
The damage can be seen, but I will admit that ANY damage is unacceptable to me-yes. It appears from
your comments that you think that selling damaged merchandise is ok, as long as you give someone a
price break. If we were talking department store bike, maybe. but not at the price ranges were
talking about. But, if I am ever in the market for a damaged bike, I will visit your shop for a
bargain! When I buy anything new that costs over $1500 dollars sir, I do expect it to be
perfect...maybe your in a different socio-economic group than myself?
 
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"baronn1" <[email protected]> wrote in message = news:[email protected]... No! No!
Burn down the church! Just kidding...some of you folks need some problems to deal with...

See: http://j-walk.com/blog/docs/conference.htm

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<DVI><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>No! No! Burn down the = church!</FONT></DIV>
<DVII><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Just kidding...some of you folks need = some=20
<EM>problems</EM> to deal with...</FONT></DIV>
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Well sir, it was covered up by foam that was installed to protect the frame from damage by feet etc.
in front of the seat. Guess you had a thought before all the facts were known. I have purchased
about two dozen new bikes in my life...never have inspected the frame front to back as your
suggesting. But...never had TWO in a row with damage either. I will take your keen advice in the
future however-especially if it is a RANS I am looking at...
 
Bill in Indiana wrote:
> The damage can be seen, but I will admit that ANY damage is unacceptable to me-yes. It appears
> from your comments that you think that selling damaged merchandise is ok, as long as you give
> someone a price break. If we were talking department store bike, maybe. but not at the price
> ranges were talking about. But, if I am ever in the market for a damaged bike, I will visit your
> shop for a bargain! When I buy anything new that costs over $1500 dollars sir, I do expect it to
> be perfect...maybe your in a different socio-economic group than myself?
>
>
I think Jude was very clear that it was up to the customer to decide what the remedy was. He was
merely making an offer. I had a similar situation with a bike. It arrived with a cosmetic blemish.
The dealer made me an offer to reduce the price if I would take it as is. I didn't have to, I could
have waited for another bike to have been shipped. However, I felt the discount that was offered was
enough to compensate me for the blemish, plus I got immediate delivery, so I took him up on his
offer. I had the choice, as I'm sure Jude's customers do, of waiting longer and paying more. From
what Jude said, you could have eventually had it perfect, you just would have had to wait longer.
The customer isn't going to have the bike any sooner if the offer isn't made. Jude sounds very
customer oriented, he's just expanding the list of options available to the customer.

Do you think the offer of a reduced price, in exchange for the bike as is, shouldn't be made?

-John
 
I think that the issue occurs too often if he has a standard type offer he makes. I for one would
not accept it. Do I think he should make the offer? I think he compromises himself and his
dealership by doing so...just my opinion. I would seek him out for a scratch and dent sale, but not
to buy a new bike. Guess I am picky. But to accept a certain level of damage to me is unacceptable.
If I owned a bike shop I would not accept it. Now if I caused it, or a customer caused it, yes, I
would try to sell it at a discount. But that is a different argument. This is about new merchandise
arriving damaged. Guess we all have our standards. If there is going to be a dent or scratch, I want
to be the one who causes it. I don't want one to come standard. This is my last post on this. Don't
want to whine anymore.
 
that sort of reasoning, is why most of Indiana doesn't go on day light savings time :). Dog gone,
take the bike back and get another brand.

Bill in Indiana wrote:
> I think that the issue occurs too often if he has a standard type offer he makes. I for one would
> not accept it. Do I think he should make the offer? I think he compromises himself and his
> dealership by doing so...just my opinion. I would seek him out for a scratch and dent sale, but
> not to buy a new bike. Guess I am picky. But to accept a certain level of damage to me is
> unacceptable. If I owned a bike shop I would not accept it. Now if I caused it, or a customer
> caused it, yes, I would try to sell it at a discount. But that is a different argument. This is
> about new merchandise arriving damaged. Guess we all have our standards. If there is going to be a
> dent or scratch, I want to be the one who causes it. I don't want one to come standard. This is my
> last post on this. Don't want to whine anymore.
>
>
 
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