Rapid Rise Derailier

Discussion in 'UK and Europe' started by TJ, Jul 9, 2004.

  1. TJ

    TJ Guest

    Hi,

    Please excuse ignorance but is this type of derailier the type where you can
    shift more than one gear at a time by pressing the lever further ?

    just bought a flight deck computer and it needs to know

    Thanx
     
    Tags:


  2. Simonb

    Simonb Guest

    TJ wrote:

    > Please excuse ignorance but is this type of derailier the type where
    > you can shift more than one gear at a time by pressing the lever
    > further ?


    I think rapid rise is only available on Shimano XTR (top end MTB)
    derailleurs; it improves downshifting.

    But I could very well be wrong.
     
  3. Velvet

    Velvet Guest

    tony R wrote:
    > "TJ" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >
    >>Hi,
    >>
    >>Please excuse ignorance but is this type of derailier the type where you

    >
    > can
    >
    >>shift more than one gear at a time by pressing the lever further ?
    >>
    >>just bought a flight deck computer and it needs to know
    >>
    >>Thanx
    >>

    >
    > I think that would depend on the shifters rather than the derailleur
    > wouldn't it? I have a cheapo Rapid Rise derailleur with equally cheapo
    > shifters on a bike at the moment. I don't recall shifting more than one gear
    > at a time but maybe I just haven't tried. The only difference between it and
    > regular derailleurs, I think, is that its spring wants to pull it onto the
    > bigger sprockets by default,rather than the smaller ones. This always
    > confuses me when I have to adjust the indexing. Indeed I wouldn't be
    > surprised if I've got it the wrong way round again.
    >
    > tony R.
    >
    >


    Yeah, it's to do with the spring on it. Shimano's website have some
    info on this, I think it's only on the top end stuff of theirs, check
    the derailleur/sprocket info on the site for the kit you have, it'll say
    if it's rapid rise or not on there.

    Mine's Tiagra and doesn't have the RR, but I can drop up to three gears
    in a single lever push on the sprockets if I so choose, so it's
    definitely not referring to that.

    --


    Velvet
     
  4. tony R

    tony R Guest

    "TJ" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Hi,
    >
    > Please excuse ignorance but is this type of derailier the type where you

    can
    > shift more than one gear at a time by pressing the lever further ?
    >
    > just bought a flight deck computer and it needs to know
    >
    > Thanx
    >

    I think that would depend on the shifters rather than the derailleur
    wouldn't it? I have a cheapo Rapid Rise derailleur with equally cheapo
    shifters on a bike at the moment. I don't recall shifting more than one gear
    at a time but maybe I just haven't tried. The only difference between it and
    regular derailleurs, I think, is that its spring wants to pull it onto the
    bigger sprockets by default,rather than the smaller ones. This always
    confuses me when I have to adjust the indexing. Indeed I wouldn't be
    surprised if I've got it the wrong way round again.

    tony R.
     
  5. Peter Amey

    Peter Amey Guest

    tony R wrote:
    > "TJ" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >
    >>Hi,
    >>
    >>Please excuse ignorance but is this type of derailier the type where you

    >
    > can
    >
    >>shift more than one gear at a time by pressing the lever further ?
    >>
    >>just bought a flight deck computer and it needs to know
    >>
    >>Thanx
    >>

    >
    > I think that would depend on the shifters rather than the derailleur
    > wouldn't it? I have a cheapo Rapid Rise derailleur with equally cheapo
    > shifters on a bike at the moment. I don't recall shifting more than one gear
    > at a time but maybe I just haven't tried. The only difference between it and
    > regular derailleurs, I think, is that its spring wants to pull it onto the
    > bigger sprockets by default,rather than the smaller ones. This always
    > confuses me when I have to adjust the indexing. Indeed I wouldn't be
    > surprised if I've got it the wrong way round again.
    >


    I think Tony has it: see http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_r.html#rapidrise

    Peter
     
  6. "TJ" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Hi,
    >
    > Please excuse ignorance but is this type of derailier the type where you

    can
    > shift more than one gear at a time by pressing the lever further ?
    >
    > just bought a flight deck computer and it needs to know
    >


    No, 'rapid rise' means low-normal. Ie. to change 'up' you are pushing
    against the derailleur spring, changing down releases the spring tension to
    pull the derailleur into a _lower_ gear. This is the opposite of normal
    derailleur operation which is high-normal. With rapidrise the shift lever
    action which would normally get you a higher gear gets you a lower one
    instead - it reverses the action of the shifter levers and provides quicker
    downshifting.

    Rich
     
  7. Velvet

    Velvet Guest

    Richard Goodman wrote:
    > "TJ" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >
    >>Hi,
    >>
    >>Please excuse ignorance but is this type of derailier the type where you

    >
    > can
    >
    >>shift more than one gear at a time by pressing the lever further ?
    >>
    >>just bought a flight deck computer and it needs to know
    >>

    >
    >
    > No, 'rapid rise' means low-normal. Ie. to change 'up' you are pushing
    > against the derailleur spring, changing down releases the spring tension to
    > pull the derailleur into a _lower_ gear. This is the opposite of normal
    > derailleur operation which is high-normal. With rapidrise the shift lever
    > action which would normally get you a higher gear gets you a lower one
    > instead - it reverses the action of the shifter levers and provides quicker
    > downshifting.
    >
    > Rich
    >
    >
    >


    Hmm, puzzled now.. so the time to shift is fastest if it's done by the
    spring, rather than finger power, yes?

    Surely you'd tend to want to change up faster, for acceleration - but
    not by more than one or maybe two gears at a time, while dropping down
    if it takes longer you can simply drop two instead of one+one gear - or
    is it a case that a powerful rider would want to change up more than a
    gear at a time (which is the limitation on non-rr shimano shifters, it's
    click click click to notch up three gears, for example) but would tend
    to drop down them using lots of single-drop but fast changes?

    --


    Velvet
     
  8. tony R

    tony R Guest

    "Velvet" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]

    >
    > Yeah, it's to do with the spring on it. Shimano's website have some
    > info on this, I think it's only on the top end stuff of theirs, .........

    My Dawes Discovery 201 is almost blushing at the thought that it came with
    top end bits. You're too kind Velvet ;-)
    The derailleur in question is a Shimano C050. Which I believe is so low end
    it's almost fallen off. I think there's then a gap up to XT/XTR when rapid
    rise appears again.

    tony R.
     
  9. Velvet

    Velvet Guest

    tony R wrote:

    > "Velvet" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >
    >
    >>Yeah, it's to do with the spring on it. Shimano's website have some
    >>info on this, I think it's only on the top end stuff of theirs, .........

    >
    > My Dawes Discovery 201 is almost blushing at the thought that it came with
    > top end bits. You're too kind Velvet ;-)
    > The derailleur in question is a Shimano C050. Which I believe is so low end
    > it's almost fallen off. I think there's then a gap up to XT/XTR when rapid
    > rise appears again.
    >
    > tony R.
    >
    >
    >


    Ah well, you never know!! Mine's a Dawes Audax that came with Tiagra
    stuff (though now three years old), which while not top-end seems very
    nice, very smooth, and has drawn admiring comments from other riders
    occasionally... so it was always possible you did have toward the top
    end components on your bike, whether as factory or fitted afterwards...

    Especially given the amount of bike fettling that I see posted about in
    here sometimes ;-)

    --


    Velvet
     
  10. Simonb

    Simonb Guest

    Velvet wrote:

    > Surely you'd tend to want to change up faster, for acceleration


    This is why it's aimed at MTBs, where he need to change down rapidly is more
    of a necessity (very steep, sudden climbs).

    I think.
     
  11. Nick Drew

    Nick Drew Guest

    > Hi,
    >
    > Please excuse ignorance but is this type of derailier the type where you

    can
    > shift more than one gear at a time by pressing the lever further ?
    >
    > just bought a flight deck computer and it needs to know
    >
    > Thanx
    >


    Rapid rise is now available on Shimano XT, and next year, LX. Don't know
    about roadie equipment, being a mtber.

    I think it means that the derailleur essentially works in reverse. What this
    means is: when you press your thumbtrigger on your shifter (which would
    normally mean change down the gears), you actually are changing up the
    gears. And when you pull the finger trigger (would normally be changing up)
    you are actually changing down.

    As for why.... I think it's because derailleurs are sprung a particular way
    and hence shifting up is easier than shifting down. Rapid rise is there to
    change that round. I think

    HTH]
    Nick
     
  12. Velvet

    Velvet Guest

    Simonb wrote:
    > Velvet wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Surely you'd tend to want to change up faster, for acceleration

    >
    >
    > This is why it's aimed at MTBs, where he need to change down rapidly is more
    > of a necessity (very steep, sudden climbs).
    >
    > I think.
    >
    >


    Yebbut surely that's where the dropping three gears at once is useful..
    not that I'm a MTB-er, only having ridden one once...

    Or is it that rapid rise means you still can drop 1-3 at a time, just
    that when it does drop, it does it with the spring pulling and thus it's
    fast when it does it?

    I think we need someone that has the RR on their bike to sort this one
    out for us :)

    --


    Velvet
     
  13. Simonb

    Simonb Guest

    Velvet wrote:

    > Or is it that rapid rise means you still can drop 1-3 at a time, just
    > that when it does drop, it does it with the spring pulling and thus
    > it's fast when it does it?


    This is precisely what it does.
     
  14. tony R

    tony R Guest

    "Velvet" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]

    >
    > Especially given the amount of bike fettling that I see posted about in
    > here sometimes ;-)


    Aint that the truth! In fact, the very same bike now has an old (13 yr. old)
    XT chainset. From the sublime to the ridiculous on one drivetrain. Although
    the ridiculous does work very well. The fact that it shifts "by default" to
    the bigger sprockets often comes in useful as this bike daily pulls c. 50kg.
    of trailer and kids up a short, sharp hill.

    tony R.
     
  15. Jon Senior

    Jon Senior Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected]in says...
    > I push the bigger lever toward the left (it's on the right hand bar) to
    > drop 1-3 gears, depending on how far and how long I push it over for -
    > I'm working against the spring force, so can control how many gears to
    > drop fairly easily that way. To ramp up the gears, it's the smaller
    > lever inside that one that clicks over and each click releases the
    > spring which pulls and it shifts up one gear.


    Campag use the same system, only the inner lever is a button on the side
    and it can also click through multiple points. I don't know how the Sora
    "button" STIs behaved but I suspect that they were single click to go
    up.

    Jon
     
  16. Velvet

    Velvet Guest

    Simonb wrote:

    > Velvet wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Or is it that rapid rise means you still can drop 1-3 at a time, just
    >>that when it does drop, it does it with the spring pulling and thus
    >>it's fast when it does it?

    >
    >
    > This is precisely what it does.
    >
    >


    Ah, right, thanks for clearing that one up for me! I realised halfway
    through I was probably confusing two separate issues with how it all
    works, though I'm not quite sure how you'd judge the drop down 1, 2 or 3
    if it's on a spring to drop quicker.. but maybe that's cos I ride a road
    bike with drops rather than indexed shifters for straight bars...

    I push the bigger lever toward the left (it's on the right hand bar) to
    drop 1-3 gears, depending on how far and how long I push it over for -
    I'm working against the spring force, so can control how many gears to
    drop fairly easily that way. To ramp up the gears, it's the smaller
    lever inside that one that clicks over and each click releases the
    spring which pulls and it shifts up one gear.

    --


    Velvet
     
  17. Velvet

    Velvet Guest

    Jon Senior wrote:

    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > [email protected]in says...
    >
    >>I push the bigger lever toward the left (it's on the right hand bar) to
    >>drop 1-3 gears, depending on how far and how long I push it over for -
    >>I'm working against the spring force, so can control how many gears to
    >>drop fairly easily that way. To ramp up the gears, it's the smaller
    >>lever inside that one that clicks over and each click releases the
    >>spring which pulls and it shifts up one gear.

    >
    >
    > Campag use the same system, only the inner lever is a button on the side
    > and it can also click through multiple points. I don't know how the Sora
    > "button" STIs behaved but I suspect that they were single click to go
    > up.
    >
    > Jon


    Yeah, this is a single click and release to move up, to move up again
    you have to click and release repeatedly.

    Which is why I was a bit puzzled as to the actual gains made for
    downshifting fast with a RR setup, cos to downshift one gear might be
    faster, but to downshift 2 or three it *definitely* isn't!!!

    If I want to change up three, it's three sets of click-release movements
    of the little lever, which seems to take just as long, if not longer, as
    dropping three gears using the push waaay over and hold to be sure it's
    dropped the three..

    Maybe I'll have to experiment at some point this weekend with it all -
    it could just be my perception is wildly out of kilter with the actual
    time taken to shift!

    --


    Velvet
     
  18. Jon Senior

    Jon Senior Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    [email protected]in says...
    > Which is why I was a bit puzzled as to the actual gains made for
    > downshifting fast with a RR setup, cos to downshift one gear might be
    > faster, but to downshift 2 or three it *definitely* isn't!!!


    Think about how "snappy" the change up is on your system (Assuming it's
    setup right!). Now compare that to the feel of the change down (which is
    usually slightly more rattly. The RapidRise system just swaps those two.
    It does also mean that if your cable or shifter breaks, the default gear
    is your lowest, not your highest. After the Gripsh*t on the bent broke I
    can say with some confidence that this is a Good Thing (TM). The
    experience of suddenly hitting top gear going up Leith Walk was not one
    I intend to repeat!

    Jon
     
  19. tony R

    tony R Guest

    "Velvet" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Jon Senior wrote:
    >
    > > In article <[email protected]>,
    > > [email protected]in says...
    > >
    > >>I push the bigger lever toward the left (it's on the right hand bar) to
    > >>drop 1-3 gears, depending on how far and how long I push it over for -
    > >>I'm working against the spring force, so can control how many gears to
    > >>drop fairly easily that way. To ramp up the gears, it's the smaller
    > >>lever inside that one that clicks over and each click releases the
    > >>spring which pulls and it shifts up one gear.

    > >
    > >
    > > Campag use the same system, only the inner lever is a button on the side
    > > and it can also click through multiple points. I don't know how the Sora
    > > "button" STIs behaved but I suspect that they were single click to go
    > > up.
    > >
    > > Jon

    >
    > Yeah, this is a single click and release to move up, to move up again
    > you have to click and release repeatedly.
    >
    > Which is why I was a bit puzzled as to the actual gains made for
    > downshifting fast with a RR setup, cos to downshift one gear might be
    > faster, but to downshift 2 or three it *definitely* isn't!!!
    >
    > If I want to change up three, it's three sets of click-release movements
    > of the little lever, which seems to take just as long, if not longer, as
    > dropping three gears using the push waaay over and hold to be sure it's
    > dropped the three..
    >
    > Maybe I'll have to experiment at some point this weekend with it all -
    > it could just be my perception is wildly out of kilter with the actual
    > time taken to shift!
    >


    In my experience it's not so much "speed" as "ease" of shifting to bigger
    sprockets that is probably the alleged advantage of rapid rise. I have to
    pull a heavy trailer up a hill near home. Due to a combination of the road
    layout before the hill, the length and steepness of the hill and my level of
    fitness, I always have to change to bigger sprockets whilst on this hill. I
    find it's easier to do this on the bike with the r r derailleur.

    tony R.
     
  20. Velvet

    Velvet Guest

    tony R wrote:

    > "Velvet" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >
    >>Jon Senior wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>In article <[email protected]>,
    >>>[email protected] says...
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>I push the bigger lever toward the left (it's on the right hand bar) to
    >>>>drop 1-3 gears, depending on how far and how long I push it over for -
    >>>>I'm working against the spring force, so can control how many gears to
    >>>>drop fairly easily that way. To ramp up the gears, it's the smaller
    >>>>lever inside that one that clicks over and each click releases the
    >>>>spring which pulls and it shifts up one gear.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>Campag use the same system, only the inner lever is a button on the side
    >>>and it can also click through multiple points. I don't know how the Sora
    >>>"button" STIs behaved but I suspect that they were single click to go
    >>>up.
    >>>
    >>>Jon

    >>
    >>Yeah, this is a single click and release to move up, to move up again
    >>you have to click and release repeatedly.
    >>
    >>Which is why I was a bit puzzled as to the actual gains made for
    >>downshifting fast with a RR setup, cos to downshift one gear might be
    >>faster, but to downshift 2 or three it *definitely* isn't!!!
    >>
    >>If I want to change up three, it's three sets of click-release movements
    >>of the little lever, which seems to take just as long, if not longer, as
    >>dropping three gears using the push waaay over and hold to be sure it's
    >>dropped the three..
    >>
    >>Maybe I'll have to experiment at some point this weekend with it all -
    >>it could just be my perception is wildly out of kilter with the actual
    >>time taken to shift!
    >>

    >
    >
    > In my experience it's not so much "speed" as "ease" of shifting to bigger
    > sprockets that is probably the alleged advantage of rapid rise. I have to
    > pull a heavy trailer up a hill near home. Due to a combination of the road
    > layout before the hill, the length and steepness of the hill and my level of
    > fitness, I always have to change to bigger sprockets whilst on this hill. I
    > find it's easier to do this on the bike with the r r derailleur.
    >
    > tony R.
    >
    >


    Tony/Jon,

    Ahh, yes, I see.... yes, I'd prefer to suddenly drop to a low rather
    than a high by default... hadn't thought about a sudden cable snap...
    something else to worry about whilst on the bike LOL (joking, these
    days, woohoo!)

    I spend a lot of time in the big sprockets too - am wondering if RR is
    more useful if on a double chainring than a triple though perhaps, dunno
    really.

    I'm still working on gear changes while the bike is under load (ie, up
    hills etc) - I find it very hard not to have it be a jerky and obviously
    stressful for the components (and my knees!) procedure - slacking off
    the power through the pedals instantly leads to a drop in cadence but
    worse a drop in speed, which is very hard to recover... I know there
    must be a knack to it, maybe one part of the pedal stroke is best - I'll
    get it one day!

    --


    Velvet
     
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