Rasmus Damsgaard - who is he really?

[adamastor]

Hi,

apparently according to Damsgaard on a Danish website wendesday (?haven't seen it, and have no ref?), French authorities should actually test ALL riders. They might catch between 20 and 30 pct of those. This comments would have been made BEFORE the Ricco positive. Voigt replied (again apparently, have no reference), that "this is a daring number".

I read a bit about how Damsgaard tests Astana and CSC according to his ADAMS system, in total independence. But then again I read he accepted the job, only if followed the UCI and WADA rules.

Finally I read, that for some Damsgaard is only an alibi for Riis. He has an internal control, if doping is undetectable.

Who of you know Damsgaard, what he represents, what his objectives are? Could he be fooled by CSC?

Input welcome.

 

[Prano]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features.php?id=riders/2008/interviews/rasmus_damsgaard_jan08

 

[Prano]

bumb

 

[interested]

Hi,

apparently according to Damsgaard on a Danish website wendesday (?haven't seen it, and have no ref?), French authorities should actually test ALL riders. They might catch between 20 and 30 pct of those. This comments would have been made BEFORE the Ricco positive. Voigt replied (again apparently, have no reference), that "this is a daring number".

I read a bit about how Damsgaard tests Astana and CSC according to his ADAMS system, in total independence. But then again I read he accepted the job, only if followed the UCI and WADA rules.

Finally I read, that for some Damsgaard is only an alibi for Riis. He has an internal control, if doping is undetectable.

Who of you know Damsgaard, what he represents, what his objectives are? Could he be fooled by CSC?

Input welcome.

Damsgaard is the real deal and not a muppet for Bjarne Riis. He is a bright young PhD. Doctor who more or less by accident became involved in anti-doping research. He can more or less get the job he wants, whether in research or making money in a private pratice etc. So if he chooses to work for CSC Saxobank it is because he find the job interesting, not because he needs a job or because team C-S pays him more than he could get otherwise. Just for the record, Damsgaard isn't even payed by team C-S but by an independent foundation. He just works as an independent consultant for the team.
It is Bjarne Riis that needs Damsgaard, not the other way around.

I like his anti-doping program for team C-S for two main reasons: First; the program monitors blood values over time, not particular doping products. That means riders can get busted even though they are using a unknown doping product. Second, the actual testing is done at a independent university/hospital-research lab that also develop anti-doping testing methods for WADA. So not only are they doing the "standard" tests on the blood samples, they also use the newest anti-doping research techniques on the samples. The test results are uploaded to a webserver that UCI also has a password for. So the team doesn't get the results first and therefore can't choose to hide nasty testresults.

His program doesn't prevent that riders dope (it doesn't detect insulin used as a recovery drug or if the riders inject cocaine on race day) , but it makes it almost impossible for them to use the most potent doping techniques even if they tried to use a unknown 3. generation Epo product.

His comment about 20-30% percent of the riders are using doping products stems from his anti-doping research; his point is that these riders are using dope as a matter of medical fact. The labs sees these abnormal values all the time but the system isn't geared to sanction these riders. E.g. Ricco had an test taken where his urine had the hormone levels of an almost infant (at the Giro). Compared with his other tests it is certain from a medical point of view that he had doped, he just couldn't get sanctionend because of the way CONI/WADA/UCI interprets the rules.


--
Regards

 

[thunder]

Damsgaard is the real deal and not a muppet for Bjarne Riis. He is a bright young PhD. Doctor who more or less by accident became involved in anti-doping research. He can more or less get the job he wants, whether in research or making money in a private pratice etc. So if he chooses to work for CSC Saxobank it is because he find the job interesting, not because he needs a job or because team C-S pays him more than he could get otherwise. Just for the record, Damsgaard isn't even payed by team C-S but by an independent foundation. He just works as an independent consultant for the team.
It is Bjarne Riis that needs Damsgaard, not the other way around.

I like his anti-doping program for team C-S for two main reasons: First; the program monitors blood values over time, not particular doping products. That means riders can get busted even though they are using a unknown doping product. Second, the actual testing is done at a independent university/hospital-research lab that also develop anti-doping testing methods for WADA. So not only are they doing the "standard" tests on the blood samples, they also use the newest anti-doping research techniques on the samples. The test results are uploaded to a webserver that UCI also has a password for. So the team doesn't get the results first and therefore can't choose to hide nasty testresults.

His program doesn't prevent that riders dope (it doesn't detect insulin used as a recovery drug or if the riders inject cocaine on race day) , but it makes it almost impossible for them to use the most potent doping techniques even if they tried to use a unknown 3. generation Epo product.

His comment about 20-30% percent of the riders are using doping products stems from his anti-doping research; his point is that these riders are using dope as a matter of medical fact. The labs sees these abnormal values all the time but the system isn't geared to sanction these riders. E.g. Ricco had an test taken where his urine had the hormone levels of an almost infant (at the Giro). Compared with his other tests it is certain from a medical point of view that he had doped, he just couldn't get sanctionend because of the way CONI/WADA/UCI interprets the rules.


--
Regards

the biggest query, is why then were Cancellara and Schleck tested at the start. The first blood health checks, were abnormal which prompted the testers to target them, Cancellara in particularly, 4 times in the first 4 stages.

Remember Basso was studied in 2005 and he was blood doping then, and they came back and said "all clear".

I have talked to Parisotto and he said it is simple to keep values in check, in a normal range.

Cancellara, Schleck and other CSC guys are still blood doping in my opinion.

Who was "amigo de birillo"?

Schleck never sued the Dutch paper that said it was him did he?

 

[thecyclist]

Cancellara in particularly, 4 times in the first 4 stages.

Where did you read/hear this?

 

[thunder]

Where did you read/hear this?

French mate,

check www.velo-club.com

But it is good information.

 

[thecyclist]

French mate,

check www.velo-club.com

But it is good information.

Ok thanks.

 

[interested]

the biggest query, is why then were Cancellara and Schleck tested at the start. The first blood health checks, were abnormal which prompted the testers to target them, Cancellara in particularly, 4 times in the first 4 stages.

Remember Basso was studied in 2005 and he was blood doping then, and they came back and said "all clear".

I have talked to Parisotto and he said it is simple to keep values in check, in a normal range.

Cancellara, Schleck and other CSC guys are still blood doping in my opinion.

Who was "amigo de birillo"?

Schleck never sued the Dutch paper that said it was him did he?

You got to get your timeline right; The Basso affair was pre-Damsgaard. Damsgaard's scientific critique of CSC's then internal anti-doping program that failed to reveal Basso, was why Bjarne Riis invited him to work out a new anti-doping procedure for the team.

You are asking who "amigo de birillo" was? Who is the most likely candidate for being a friend of Basso involved in doping. A very young guy from Luxemburg who probably doesn't speak Italian, (and Basso couldn't even speak English when he came to CSC), or, the Italian veteran cyclist that Basso _insisted_ should race with him, even though he was so old he could never get at TdF ticket on his own accord. At least to me the most obvious candidate for "amigo de birillo" is Giovanni Lombardi, who btw. lived in (cough) Spain.
Eddy Mazzolini is also mentionend as a likely candidate because of various personal and doping connections.
I am not saying this to defend the Schleck brothers from doping charges, but because I simply don't find that rumour credible at all.
And I really don't think you can take lack of suing as any evidence either; Armstrong and his lawyer team sued all and anybody and he was hardly innocent of doping.

I am not a doping test expert. I can only relay what I think scientists say. I am not so sure that blood doping easily can be done without detection; perhaps on race day tests, but the whole point is that Damsgaard advocates intensive out-of-competition testing. Also, remember we are talking two testing standards; the old standard (Judicial: UCI/WADA) and the new (Medical: AFLD/Damsgaard). Ricco never doped by the old standard, since there isn't a formal WADA test for CERA, but from a medical viewpoint, Ricco was juiced to gills since evidence of CERA was found in his body.
So perhaps it is easy to conceal Epo use in the old system, since all you have to do is to use a Epo variant to new to have a formal WADA test to avoid detection.

Regarding your information that Cancellara and one or more Schleck had abnormal blood values (I assume at this TdF); I have never heard of it and would really appreciate a source for it. (Edit: I just saw your link but can't find any article that mention what you say, a deep link or similar would be appreciated )


Regarding that the (entire) CSC Saxobank team still blood dopes, then I am curios to know whether you think that because you believe their internal anti-doping testing program is a sham, and that Damsgaard really is a cover up guy, or if you think that even intensive testing cannot reveal blood doping because it escapes detection so easily?


--
Regards

 

[adamastor]

You got to get your timeline right; The Basso affair was pre-Damsgaard. Damsgaard's scientific critique of CSC's then internal anti-doping program that failed to reveal Basso, was why Bjarne Riis invited him to work out a new anti-doping procedure for the team.

You are asking who "amigo de birillo" was? Who is the most likely candidate for being a friend of Basso involved in doping. A very young guy from Luxemburg who probably doesn't speak Italian, (and Basso couldn't even speak English when he came to CSC), or, the Italian veteran cyclist that Basso _insisted_ should race with him, even though he was so old he could never get at TdF ticket on his own accord. At least to me the most obvious candidate for "amigo de birillo" is Giovanni Lombardi, who btw. lived in (cough) Spain.
Eddy Mazzolini is also mentionend as a likely candidate because of various personal and doping connections.
I am not saying this to defend the Schleck brothers from doping charges, but because I simply don't find that rumour credible at all.
And I really don't think you can take lack of suing as any evidence either; Armstrong and his lawyer team sued all and anybody and he was hardly innocent of doping.

I am not a doping test expert. I can only relay what I think scientists say. I am not so sure that blood doping easily can be done without detection; perhaps on race day tests, but the whole point is that Damsgaard advocates intensive out-of-competition testing. Also, remember we are talking two testing standards; the old standard (Judicial: UCI/WADA) and the new (Medical: AFLD/Damsgaard). Ricco never doped by the old standard, since there isn't a formal WADA test for CERA, but from a medical viewpoint, Ricco was juiced to gills since evidence of CERA was found in his body.
So perhaps it is easy to conceal Epo use in the old system, since all you have to do is to use a Epo variant to new to have a formal WADA test to avoid detection.

Regarding your information that Cancellara and one or more Schleck had abnormal blood values (I assume at this TdF); I have never heard of it and would really appreciate a source for it. (Edit: I just saw your link but can't find any article that mention what you say, a deep link or similar would be appreciated )


Regarding that the (entire) CSC Saxobank team still blood dopes, then I am curios to know whether you think that because you believe their internal anti-doping testing program is a sham, and that Damsgaard really is a cover up guy, or if you think that even intensive testing cannot reveal blood doping because it escapes detection so easily?


--
Regards

Thanks for your comments to my first post, very interesting. I figured from the few articles I read about Damsgaard, that he is a bright young guy.

I would like to trust CSC, but still a bit suspicious. One thing I am sure of, IF CSC is on a doping program, they won't be cought, BECAUSE Damsgaard would already have detected something wrong about their blood levels. If he hasn't, nobody will.

 

[RdBiker]

You got to get your timeline right; The Basso affair was pre-Damsgaard. Damsgaard's scientific critique of CSC's then internal anti-doping program that failed to reveal Basso, was why Bjarne Riis invited him to work out a new anti-doping procedure for the team.

You are asking who "amigo de birillo" was? Who is the most likely candidate for being a friend of Basso involved in doping. A very young guy from Luxemburg who probably doesn't speak Italian, (and Basso couldn't even speak English when he came to CSC), or, the Italian veteran cyclist that Basso _insisted_ should race with him, even though he was so old he could never get at TdF ticket on his own accord. At least to me the most obvious candidate for "amigo de birillo" is Giovanni Lombardi, who btw. lived in (cough) Spain.
Eddy Mazzolini is also mentionend as a likely candidate because of various personal and doping connections.
I am not saying this to defend the Schleck brothers from doping charges, but because I simply don't find that rumour credible at all.
And I really don't think you can take lack of suing as any evidence either; Armstrong and his lawyer team sued all and anybody and he was hardly innocent of doping.

Didn't Mazzoleni go out with (or was engaged to) Basso's sister/cousin?

 

[Capt.Injury]

Didn't Mazzoleni go out with (or was engaged to) Basso's sister/cousin?

It was Basso sister, and i believe they are married

 

[Capt.Injury]

Hi,

apparently according to Damsgaard on a Danish website wendesday (?haven't seen it, and have no ref?), French authorities should actually test ALL riders. They might catch between 20 and 30 pct of those. This comments would have been made BEFORE the Ricco positive. Voigt replied (again apparently, have no reference), that "this is a daring number".

I read a bit about how Damsgaard tests Astana and CSC according to his ADAMS system, in total independence. But then again I read he accepted the job, only if followed the UCI and WADA rules.

Finally I read, that for some Damsgaard is only an alibi for Riis. He has an internal control, if doping is undetectable.

Who of you know Damsgaard, what he represents, what his objectives are? Could he be fooled by CSC?

Input welcome.

It does seems suspicious though that we haven't heard of one person DAmsgaard's program has found between Astana and CSC been in teh suspicious values, and we are talking about 60 cyclists between the 2 teams.

Considering in the TDF we have 180 tested riders who have already had 3 non-negative A Samples ( I haven't heard yet if any of the 3 B samples have been finished, and until they do come back I will hold off on calling it a positive test until its official in fairness to the testing procedures), and from the confession, Piepoli will probably come back positive, thats 4 riders.

It does seem strange, because no matter how hard you try to get clean cyclists, your bound to have 1 or 2 doing a personal doping regiman, or for whatever reason, have abnormal values come back due to something there body is doing, requiring a health check.

 

[OAR8]

the biggest query, is why then were Cancellara and Schleck tested at the start. The first blood health checks, were abnormal which prompted the testers to target them, Cancellara in particularly, 4 times in the first 4 stages.

Remember Basso was studied in 2005 and he was blood doping then, and they came back and said "all clear".

I have talked to Parisotto and he said it is simple to keep values in check, in a normal range.

Cancellara, Schleck and other CSC guys are still blood doping in my opinion.

Who was "amigo de birillo"?

Schleck never sued the Dutch paper that said it was him did he?

smoke = fire

No doubt.

this Schlitz malt liquor boy prob. has a nice pharmacy packed away in his hotels at night.

 

[Chavez]

It does seems suspicious though that we haven't heard of one person DAmsgaard's program has found between Astana and CSC been in teh suspicious values, and we are talking about 60 cyclists between the 2 teams.

Considering in the TDF we have 180 tested riders who have already had 3 non-negative A Samples ( I haven't heard yet if any of the 3 B samples have been finished, and until they do come back I will hold off on calling it a positive test until its official in fairness to the testing procedures), and from the confession, Piepoli will probably come back positive, thats 4 riders.

It does seem strange, because no matter how hard you try to get clean cyclists, your bound to have 1 or 2 doing a personal doping regiman, or for whatever reason, have abnormal values come back due to something there body is doing, requiring a health check.

Well, to play Devil's Advocate here (darn near literally) is it upon the teams to announce ANY and EVERY abnormal value, or only those that come back due to doping? I'm sure that they have run across abnormal values for non-doping reasons, but if Astana and CSC both made it apparent that they are serious about their anti-doping efforts, and the cyclists toed the line, and all abormal values were, upon inspection, explicable, well, that would mean that Damsgaard is doing his job.

Still, being only a casual cycling fan over the past 3 years, I've been burned more than enough times on doping B.S. to put 100% stock in what I just wrote. But I'd sure like to believe it's true.

 

[interested]

Well, to play Devil's Advocate here (darn near literally) is it upon the teams to announce ANY and EVERY abnormal value, or only those that come back due to doping? I'm sure that they have run across abnormal values for non-doping reasons, but if Astana and CSC both made it apparent that they are serious about their anti-doping efforts, and the cyclists toed the line, and all abormal values were, upon inspection, explicable, well, that would mean that Damsgaard is doing his job.

Still, being only a casual cycling fan over the past 3 years, I've been burned more than enough times on doping B.S. to put 100% stock in what I just wrote. But I'd sure like to believe it's true.

I know of one announced abnormal value at CSC. I am quoting memory since I can't find the pages I am looking for; AFAIK the lab announced a abnormal test value to the press even before team CSC knew about it. The value came from a new research test still in development. They later subjected the rider to a battery of tests but they all came back negative. Since the new test was in "beta" stage and therefore wasn't scientifically validated and no other tests showed anything the case against the rider was dropped.
There was a lot of fumbling from both the lab and team CSC in that case. It clearly showed that neither really hadn't planned proper protocols and chain-of-command in case of an abnormal blood value.
To my knowledge team CSC Saxobank plans to publish all the raw test values on their website, so that everyone can check them.

I do believe the test system is good, however, the human nature is ingenious, and while the lab tests may be good, are they actually testing the rider, or his mechanic? Are the blood fresh, or can the rider and blood sample collector conspire to deliver samples from the same old frozen dope-free batch, etc.

Anyway, one can either sit in a corner and whine cynically or work for proper anti-doping testing in the peloton. I believe that internal testing systems a la CSC Saxobank combined with good external testing and blood profiles is a good way to combat the worst and most powerfull kinds of doping. Not perfect, but way better than what we have now.

--
Regards

 

[interested]

Didn't Mazzoleni go out with (or was engaged to) Basso's sister/cousin?

Yep. He is also on record for suggesting to use her (Elisa Basso, Ivan's sister) as a drug mule while talking on a police bugged telephone.

She was also investigated (operation Athena) regarding major dealings in doping products in a fitness center. The police needed a truck to handle all the seized doping products:
http://forum.team-csc.com/post.asp?method=ReplyQuote&REPLY_ID=33061&TOPIC_ID=3431&FORUM_ID=6

Se "Oil for Drugs" for more;
http://cyclingfansanonymous.blogspot.com/2007/10/carlo-santucciones-poisonous-legacy-oil.html
Also notice how the telephone transcripts clearly shows how riders are warned about tests by corrupt (UCI?) officials.


--
Regards