Re: 3 climbers die



Following up to Roger

>Qomolangma)
>
>I wasn't sure of the spelling so I dipped into 'The Ascent of Everest'.
>If it was good enough for John Hunt it was good enough for me. Curiously
>in chapter one of the above book he refers to "their mountain group of
>Chomolungma". (The 'their referring to the Tibetans).

I was surprised to see Qomolangma in the dictionary, I had never
seen it spelled that way. Perhaps we should ask the Dali llama
for a ruling?
Tensing Norgay in his book spends a bit of time explaining
Nepalese names, something about too high for birds to fly over
IIRC, dont remember any comments on the term Everest.
--
Mike Reid
Walk-eat-photos UK "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Walk-eat-photos Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap
 
"Roger" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> The message <[email protected]>
> from The Reid <[email protected]> contains these words:
>
> < Chomolungma>
>
>> (It seems the current spellings seem to be Sagarmatha and
>> Qomolangma)
>
> I wasn't sure of the spelling so I dipped into 'The Ascent of Everest'.
> If it was good enough for John Hunt it was good enough for me. Curiously
> in chapter one of the above book he refers to "their mountain group of
> Chomolungma". (The 'their referring to the Tibetans).
>
> --
> Roger Chapman so far this year nothing new except a
> knackered knee.

IIRC, the name Sagarmatha is Nepali - they also use Everest - probably
mostly because of the number of Western tourists who visit.

Bill
 
"Boo" <reply_to_group_not_me@spam_me_no_spam.net> wrote

> I still don't understand why it's considered wrong to have a place named
> different things in different languages any more than that they should
> have different words in the first place ?

All place names are arbitrary anyway, humans just make them up. Technically
there's no "correct" name for any location, just as no-one can truly "own"
land that's been here for millions of years and will still be here long
after the "owner" is dead.

It's just what humans do, they stroll around, grab a bit of land they like,
put a fence around it, say "this bit is mine!" and then give it a name.

Later, some humans try to grab someone else's bit of land to make it theirs
instead. Then they may give it a different name, to further reinforce the
fact that they now "own" it.

Paul
 
"The Reid" <[email protected]> wrote

> It seems to me a fair case that its rather disrespectful to
> ignore an existing name and make a new one up, that's how I
> interpret the PC point of view.

PC is a new concept. People didn't think like that back in the days of
Empire.

> Its more unusual to go along to someone elses country and name
> things with a completely different name from the one they already
> have.

Yeah, but they didn't just "go along" there, they took control of the area.
If I went on holiday to Spain for a couple of weeks, it wouldn't really be
practical for me to rename Barcelona to "Wizardview", but on the other hand,
if I became a great dictator, built up an army of millions, invaded and
conquered Spain, there'd be nothing to stop me razing Madrid to the ground,
setting up a new centre of government in Wizardview and declaring it the
capital. Who knows, in a thousand years time, when everyone had forgotten
all about the Spanish, if someone tried to change the name of Wizardview to
something else, others might consider that disrespectful and not PC!

Paul
 
"Paul Saunders" <[email protected]> schreef in bericht
news:[email protected]...
> "The Reid" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>> It seems to me a fair case that its rather disrespectful to
>> ignore an existing name and make a new one up, that's how I
>> interpret the PC point of view.
>
> PC is a new concept. People didn't think like that back in the days of
> Empire.
>
>> Its more unusual to go along to someone elses country and name
>> things with a completely different name from the one they already
>> have.
>
> Yeah, but they didn't just "go along" there, they took control of the
> area. If I went on holiday to Spain for a couple of weeks, it wouldn't
> really be practical for me to rename Barcelona to "Wizardview", but on the
> other hand, if I became a great dictator, built up an army of millions,
> invaded and conquered Spain, there'd be nothing to stop me razing Madrid
> to the ground, setting up a new centre of government in Wizardview and
> declaring it the capital. Who knows, in a thousand years time, when
> everyone had forgotten all about the Spanish, if someone tried to change
> the name of Wizardview to something else, others might consider that
> disrespectful and not PC!

I like the way you think, reminds me of ..... me :)

--
"Beannachd leibh"

Theo
www.theosphotos.fotopic.net
 
The message <[email protected]>
from "Bill Brabender" <[email protected]> contains these words:

> > I wasn't sure of the spelling so I dipped into 'The Ascent of Everest'.
> > If it was good enough for John Hunt it was good enough for me. Curiously
> > in chapter one of the above book he refers to "their mountain group of
> > Chomolungma". (The 'their referring to the Tibetans).

> IIRC, the name Sagarmatha is Nepali - they also use Everest - probably
> mostly because of the number of Western tourists who visit.

According to John Hunt access to Tibet which had been the only way to
Everest pre-war was curtailed in 1951. (Presumably the Chinese
invasion). By contrast Nepal only opened its borders in 1949 so very
little time for investigation into local names. Hunt in the preface
makes a point about relying on the Swiss Foundation for Alpine Research
for the spelling of all Sherpa names with the exception of Tenzing. Not
having read the whole book for over 20 years I can't recall whether he
later mentions Nepali local names.

--
Roger Chapman so far this year nothing new except a
knackered knee.
 
Following up to Paul Saunders

>> It seems to me a fair case that its rather disrespectful to
>> ignore an existing name and make a new one up, that's how I
>> interpret the PC point of view.
>
>PC is a new concept. People didn't think like that back in the days of
>Empire.

I know, doesn't mean we have to now.

>> Its more unusual to go along to someone elses country and name
>> things with a completely different name from the one they already
>> have.
>
>Yeah, but they didn't just "go along" there, they took control of the area.

I thin that's probably part of the point, we no longer regard it
as OK to take places over by force and rename them to honour the
occupiers.

>If I went on holiday to Spain for a couple of weeks, it wouldn't really be
>practical for me to rename Barcelona to "Wizardview", but on the other hand,
>if I became a great dictator, built up an army of millions, invaded and
>conquered Spain, there'd be nothing to stop me razing Madrid to the ground,
>setting up a new centre of government in Wizardview and declaring it the
>capital. Who knows, in a thousand years time, when everyone had forgotten
>all about the Spanish, if someone tried to change the name of Wizardview to
>something else, others might consider that disrespectful and not PC!

Well, Barcelona already is a capital of sorts, but that aside,
there may well have been name changes in the past caused by
violent invasion, but two wrongs don't make a right.
--
Mike Reid
Walk-eat-photos UK "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Walk-eat-photos Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap
 
Following up to Paul Saunders

>Later, some humans try to grab someone else's bit of land to make it theirs
>instead. Then they may give it a different name, to further reinforce the
>fact that they now "own" it.

Exactly. Now apply that to "Everest" and decide if the name might
not be OK in a world where (America, China and Blair aside) we
are trying to move to a morality where theft is no more
acceptable on a national scale than a personal one).
--
Mike Reid
Walk-eat-photos UK "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Walk-eat-photos Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap
 
Following up to W. D. Grey

>Most level headed people still don't think PC. What a load of cobblers
>- Baa-Baa Rainbow Sheep indeed ??

You're lumping all change together.
The issue of when to use "black" is an area where not very bright
people make silly decisions. Many people cannot see the
distinction between using black as a derogatory term and using it
in a neutral way, hence daft ideas as in your example.
However, "PC" changes can be perfectly reasonable, do people
still say "N**** in the woodpile"? Think Golliwogs are fine? Call
black people Sambo?
Thinking about whether renaming somebody else's mountain was a
nice thing to do cant be dismissed by blanket "PC is cobblers"
comments.
You're being "reactionary" (if you want to play labels) rather
than consider issues on their merits.
--
Mike Reid
Walk-eat-photos UK "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Walk-eat-photos Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap
 
In article <[email protected]>, The Reid
<[email protected]> writes
>Following up to W. D. Grey
>
>>Most level headed people still don't think PC. What a load of cobblers
>>- Baa-Baa Rainbow Sheep indeed ??
>
>You're lumping all change together.
>The issue of when to use "black" is an area where not very bright
>people make silly decisions. Many people cannot see the
>distinction between using black as a derogatory term and using it
>in a neutral way, hence daft ideas as in your example.
>However, "PC" changes can be perfectly reasonable, do people
>still say "N**** in the woodpile"? Think Golliwogs are fine? Call
>black people Sambo?
>Thinking about whether renaming somebody else's mountain was a
>nice thing to do cant be dismissed by blanket "PC is cobblers"
>comments.
>You're being "reactionary" (if you want to play labels) rather
>than consider issues on their merits.
Troll !!!!!!
--
Bill Grey
http://www.billboy.co.uk
 
Following up to W. D. Grey

>Thinking about whether renaming somebody else's mountain was a
>nice thing to do cant be dismissed by blanket "PC is cobblers"
>comments.

> Troll !!!!!!

nope, what Everest is called in UK is a *fairly* reasonable topic
for this NG, posting different views from the one you hold is not
the same as trolling. I am posting things I either believe or am
willing to consider and *I* didnt open it out to the whole
subject of whats PC. But if you feel its not a subject for here
thats fine.
--
Mike Reid
Walk-eat-photos UK "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Walk-eat-photos Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap
 
The Reid wrote:
> Following up to Paul Saunders
>
>> Later, some humans try to grab someone else's bit of land to make it theirs
>> instead. Then they may give it a different name, to further reinforce the
>> fact that they now "own" it.
>
> Exactly. Now apply that to "Everest" and decide if the name might
> not be OK in a world where (America, China and Blair aside) we
> are trying to move to a morality where theft is no more
> acceptable on a national scale than a personal one).

Mount Everest is a household word, general knowledge, part of the common
currency of international communication. Airliners fly "higher than
Everest". Google Earth finds Mount Everest in the Himalayas, but
Sagarmartha in Chicago (I know, not a great example). Hillary and
Tenzing conquered Everest in the newsflashes of the day. The name of
the mountain is Chomolungma, or Sagarmartha, but the world knows it as
Everest, and it is practically impossible to change that now.
 
Following up to Alan Dicey

>> Exactly. Now apply that to "Everest" and decide if the name might
>> not be OK in a world where (America, China and Blair aside) we
>> are trying to move to a morality where theft is no more
>> acceptable on a national scale than a personal one).
>
>Mount Everest is a household word, general knowledge, part of the common
>currency of international communication. Airliners fly "higher than
>Everest". Google Earth finds Mount Everest in the Himalayas, but
>Sagarmartha in Chicago (I know, not a great example). Hillary and
>Tenzing conquered Everest in the newsflashes of the day. The name of
>the mountain is Chomolungma, or Sagarmartha, but the world knows it as
>Everest, and it is practically impossible to change that now.

like Beijing, Constantinople, Denali or Stalingrad? Change is
perfectly possible over time.
--
Mike Reid
Walk-eat-photos UK "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Walk-eat-photos Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap
 
> like Beijing, Constantinople, Denali or Stalingrad? Change is
> perfectly possible over time.

Byt why ?

--
Boo
 
Following up to Boo

>> like Beijing, Constantinople, Denali or Stalingrad? Change is
>> perfectly possible over time.
>
>Byt why ?

Beijing because nearer to Chinese?
Turkish take over
End of communism
Everest, end of colonialism
--
Mike Reid
Walk-eat-photos UK "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Walk-eat-photos Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap
 
Alan Dicey wrote:

> Mount Everest is a household word,

Quite.

> The name of the mountain is Chomolungma, or Sagarmartha, but the
> world knows it as Everest, and it is practically impossible to change
> that now.

Indeed. Rather like Snowdon.

Paul
 
The Reid wrote:

>> PC is a new concept. People didn't think like that back in the days
>> of Empire.
>
> I know, doesn't mean we have to now.

But things are the way they are, irrespective of why they are. Regardless
of whether or not Everest should have been named Everest, it was. That's
the way it is, and most people accept that. Would it really make that much
difference in the overall scheme of things if the name was changed back? It
would probably cause far more confusion than anything, and then in the
future, if and when the new (old) name has become commonplace, people
reading historical documents will get confused.

"In the distant past, long before it was realised that Chongysarg was the
highest mountain in the world, people mistaken believed that a mountain
called Everest was the highest. Unfortunately no-one knows the location of
this mysterious peak..."

It's not really practical to try to undo all the wrongs of history, is it?

> I thin that's probably part of the point, we no longer regard it
> as OK to take places over by force and rename them to honour the
> occupiers.

No, but we did, and irrespective of right or wrong, Everest got the name
that most of the world knows it by.

> Well, Barcelona already is a capital of sorts, but that aside,
> there may well have been name changes in the past caused by
> violent invasion, but two wrongs don't make a right.

No, but what is, is, irrespective of how it came about.

Swansea is a Norse name which evolved from Sweyne's Eye (meaning Sweyne's
Island). Apparently some bloke named Sweyne was sailing around the coast of
Wales and decided to set up home on a small island at the mouth of the river
Tawe (which has since been consumed by Swansea Docks). The local Welsh name
is Abertawe (and it's perfectly acceptable to use that name on mail).

hould we erase the name Swansea from all the maps of Britain and replace it
with Abertawe? Change the name of the football club and so on? I'm sure
there are some Welsh fanatics who believe so, but come on, is that really
practical? And what difference would it make anyway? It would simply cause
problems and confusion, and personally, I couldn't care less.

Fact is, the Norse origin of the name is an interesting historical
curiosity, why try to delete that from history? It happened. One could
argue the same about Everest.

Erasing established place names seems to smack a little of book-burning to
me, an attempt to undo or re-write history. Good or bad, these things
happened, and Everest got the name it did.

Having said that, the only thing in life that's certain is change. Place
names (not to mention political entities, topography, climate etc,) will
continue change and evolve, for whatever reason, good or bad. The current
state of affairs is always temporary and transient.

One day, Everest will no longer be the highest peak on earth, but I doubt
anyone will really care about the name by then, if humans even still exist.
;-)

Paul
 
The Reid wrote:

> like Beijing, Constantinople, Denali or Stalingrad? Change is
> perfectly possible over time.

Quite. I vote we give the moon a different name. Calling it the moon is
too confusing. Which moon? There are loads of moons in the solar system,
how are we supposed to know which moon we're talking about? This will
become a big problem in the future when humans establish bases on many
different moons.

Whoever thought of calling the moon "Moon", in the first place? What a
stupid name! That's like calling the Earth "Planet"! ;-)

Paul
 
The Reid wrote:

> Exactly. Now apply that to "Everest" and decide if the name might
> not be OK in a world where (America, China and Blair aside) we
> are trying to move to a morality where theft is no more
> acceptable on a national scale than a personal one).

Okay then, let's make it illegal to use the name "Glyders". There's no such
place! We must not put up with this English oppression any longer! ;-)

Anyone using the names Snowdon, Glyders, Carnedds, Moelwyns, Rhinogs, Cader
Idris, Plynlimon, Dolgelley, Fishguard, Carmarthen, Swansea or Cardiff
should be jailed forthwith! ;-)

Paul
 
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