Re: 3 climbers die



The Reid wrote:

> I know. How does that fit together? I mean its obvious why
> Snowdonia, why Eryri?


It means eagles. Apparently there were eagles flapping around the summits
back in the olden days...

Paul
 
The Reid wrote:

> Yes :) Probably applies to ALL names. I like pen y helgi dhu
> (sp?) though.


du

Top of the black hound?

Paul
 
The Reid wrote:

> English maps often say Florence for Firenze, Venice for Venezia
> etc etc, you wont find it a help, you will find it a hindrance,
> because, in Italy, they perversely signpost the real names.


Happened to me once in Wales. I spent ages driving around looking for
Cardigan Rugby Club. Asked for directions twice, drove past it three times,
before I realised...

Paul
 
Peter Clinch wrote:

> Depends on the perspective of "unknown". I always marvel when I see
> that "Victoria Falls" were "discovered" by Livingstone.


It's all relative. I've "discovered" some great hills over the years. No
doubt I'll "discover" more in the future.

The dates of these important discoveries are recorded in my journals, but of
course they're completely irrelevant to anyone else!

Paul
 
In article <[email protected]>, Paul Saunders
<[email protected]> writes
>They were surveyed from a
>distance. They measured a phenomenally accurate baseline in India and
>triangulated them all, without going anywhere near them. It took them some
>time to figure out which one was the highest, probably had to take the
>curvature of the earth into account.


They did. They also had to compensate for refraction in the atmosphere.

> The original measurement was amazingly
>close to the latest hyper-accurate measurement.


It was brilliant.

Here are some diagrams of the triangulation done:
1849-50
http://www.nepalhomepage.com/himalaya/graphics/1.jpg
1952-54
http://www.nepalhomepage.com/himalaya/graphics/2.jpg
1975
http://www.nepalhomepage.com/himalaya/graphics/3.jpg

Which gives some idea of the effort involved just to take the
measurements.

Interesting reading (if you have the time!) here:
http://www.nepalhomepage.com/himalaya/sagarmatha.html

--

Dominic Sexton
 
Following up to Paul Saunders

>> I know. How does that fit together? I mean its obvious why
>> Snowdonia, why Eryri?

>
>It means eagles. Apparently there were eagles flapping around the summits
>back in the olden days...


maybe again one day. I should have guessed from "Eyrie" Eagles
nest, no doubt from Welsh into English.
--
Mike Reid
Walk-eat-photos UK "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
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Following up to Dominic Sexton

>Yes but it wasn't until the 1920s that westerners went anywhere near the
>hill IIRC.


Yes, Shipton and Tilman and all that. The challenge of just
finding a way *to* the mountain!

>>How come they found the names for the others but not the highest,
>>or did they just name Everest?

>
>I expect they just names the highest because it was special - before the
>height was calculated it was known as Peak XV.
>
>I expect the other local names were discovered and applied as they
>became accessible.


sounds logical.
--
Mike Reid
Walk-eat-photos UK "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
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Following up to Peter Clinch

>> Was it? Like K1 K2. If it was me, I'd have changed back when I
>> found out.

>
>Depends on the perspective of "unknown".


If I understand it K2 was remote from *all* people?

>I always marvel when I see
>that "Victoria Falls" were "discovered" by Livingstone. You can imagine
>the locals being amazed to find out what that roaring sound they'd been
>wondering about around the corner for all those years actually /was/... ;-)


that's exactly the point, isn't it? The concept its unknown and
unnamed until a European knows about it. They should have brought
back a local and gone to Thameshead, discovered it and named it
Ubanbulu or something! Old Father Ubanbulu, Ubanbulumead,
Ubanbulus Fluvius, I like it!
BTW Did Stanley discover the knife?
--
Mike Reid
Walk-eat-photos UK "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Walk-eat-photos Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap
 
Following up to Paul Saunders

>> Yes :) Probably applies to ALL names. I like pen y helgi dhu
>> (sp?) though.

>
>du
>
>Top of the black hound?


I like to think of it as dog, "black dog" has a certain feel to
it.
--
Mike Reid
Walk-eat-photos UK "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Walk-eat-photos Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap
 
Following up to Paul Saunders

>> English maps often say Florence for Firenze, Venice for Venezia
>> etc etc, you wont find it a help, you will find it a hindrance,
>> because, in Italy, they perversely signpost the real names.

>
>Happened to me once in Wales. I spent ages driving around looking for
>Cardigan Rugby Club. Asked for directions twice, drove past it three times,
>before I realised...


I would have missed Venice, but the gondole and vaporetti were a
give away.:)
Try looking at Irish number plates and see if you can work out
which county they are from.
--
Mike Reid
Walk-eat-photos UK "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Walk-eat-photos Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap
 
Chris Gilbert wrote:
> Boo wrote
>
>> It's pointless change.

>
> By the same token so was the change to Everest.
>
>> That's not a reason for me to do so however.

>
> Would respect for cultural precendence be a valid reason ?
>
> No, its OK. I'm not fishing for an answer there. We're unlikely
> to explore any avenues that have not already been explored
> earlier in the thread and I already sense this particular path has
> been trod already. Suffice, its a mindset I can't fathom. I'm not
> sure whether the celebrate the difference, however :)
>
> Chris
>
>


When Everest was first surveyed in 1849, it was as part of the Great
Trigonometrical Survey of India. Nepal was closed to foreigners, and
the mountains were surveyed from great distance (Everest from six
different stations at an average of 111 miles) and it was some time
before a good estimate of the height could be calculated; only then was
it discovered that this distant peak was higher than Kangchenjunga
(note, local name used for this summit) and was the highest so far
discovered. Nobody knew the local name for Peak XV, which is how it
appeared on the survey, Nepal was closed and Tibet further away and an
independent country - neither under British rule. The Surveyor-General
suggested naming it after his predecessor, George Everest, as no local
name was known.

So Everest was first mapped as Mount Everest because the local name
could not be found. Expeditions to reconnoitre and climb it began
almost at once, and the name became iconic.

The name Everest has remained in currency where other "imposed" names
have not - Mount Godwin-Austen soon reverted to K2, but not Chogori,
Lambha Pahar or Dapsang. Of course, it was only climbed by Italians
<big grin>

Info from George Band's "Everest".
 
Message-ID: <[email protected]> from The Reid
contained the following:

>I like to think of it as dog, "black dog" has a certain feel to
>it.


Where's that then? Gotta climb that one!
--
black-dog

"We will remember not the words of our enemies,
but the silence of our friends."
Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
Following up to <[email protected]>

>>I like to think of it as dog, "black dog" has a certain feel to
>>it.

>
>Where's that then? Gotta climb that one!


south east Carneddau. Penultimate summit.
--
Mike Reid
Walk-eat-photos UK "http://www.fellwalk.co.uk" <-- you can email us@ this site
Walk-eat-photos Spain "http://www.fell-walker.co.uk" <-- dontuse@ all, it's a spamtrap
 
> English maps often say Florence for Firenze, Venice for Venezia
> etc etc, you wont find it a help, you will find it a hindrance,
> because, in Italy, they perversely signpost the real names.


Well I suggest a spot of cultural imperialism is called for there too !

--
Boo
 
The Reid wrote:

> south east Carneddau. Penultimate summit.


Next to the slippery witch!

Paul
 
The Reid wrote:

>> Top of the black hound?

>
> I like to think of it as dog, "black dog" has a certain feel to
> it.


In English yes, but hound sounds better in Welsh. Black dog is ci du,
pronounced KEE DEE.

Paul
 
W. D. Grey wrote:

>> Nope. I think they had to keep postponing the proceedings until
>> they could find enough Welsh speakers to fill the jury! (Not that
>> many Welsh speakers in Swansea)

>
> You want to get out more. There are PLENTY of "proper" Welsh Speakers
> around.


Of course there are, but not percentage wise. Pick 12 random people on a
Swansea jury and I guarantee they won't all be able to speak Welsh!

I've just checked the last census and only 21% of the population of Wales
can speak Welsh.

Gwynedd has the highest percentage with 69% (78,000), although
Carmarthenshire's 50% has the greatest number of actual speakers, at 84,000.

Rural Powys has 26,000, but is beaten by Swansea's 29,000. However, that
only accounts for 13% of Swansea's population, around 1 in 8 people. So an
average Swansea jury would only have 1.6 Welsh speakers.

So where are these 29,000 Swansea Welsh speakers? Huddled together in some
secret society? I can probably count the number of times I've heard Swansea
spoken in the city centre in the last 10 years on one hand, and I'm not
joking.

Paul