Re: Best Rivalry of all time in any sport

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by Davide Tosi, Jun 26, 2004.

  1. Davide Tosi

    Davide Tosi Guest

    "Trapper" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Chris Evert v Martina Navratilova


    No way.
    For a great rivalry you have to have athletes that don't like each others
    also in their non-sport life. Martina and Chris were, if not friends, at
    least really respective of each other off court.

    To define a great sport rivalry I'd say that you have to choose two
    athletes who both had been winning a lot at top level but none of them was
    completely dominating (there's no rivalry against a "Cannibal") and two
    that represent very different lifestyles.

    If you ask about the greatest sport rivalry where I live, they will talk
    you about the two best cyclists in the years immediately after WW2: Fausto
    Coppi and Gino Bartali. Both won a couple of Tour de France each (and a lot
    of other races), so they really were the cream of the crop in their time.
    They didn't really like each other, for both sport and lifestyle reasons.
    In sport terms, Coppi started out as a young coequipier of Bartali, but
    then he betrayed his leader winning the 1940 Giro d'Italia in front of him.
    But their lifestyles was what really tore them apart.
    Coppi was a very shy guy, really introvert and on his own. Bartali was very
    aggressive, a man that used to shout in the public's face all his thoughts.
    Coppi was a liberal, maybe even a libertine for his time, who left his wife
    and kids to go living with another woman. Bartali was a catholic
    traditionalist, who really stood for a conservative vision of family life.
    Coppi was more talented but very moody, often a victim of adverse
    circumstances. Bartali was an ox, always fighting and often winning against
    more gifted opponents.
     
    Tags:


  2. Davide Tosi

    Davide Tosi Guest

    "Sierraman" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >"Davide Tosi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    >news:[email protected]
    >> "Trapper" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >> >Chris Evert v Martina Navratilova

    >>
    >> No way.
    >> For a great rivalry you have to have athletes that don't like each others
    >> also in their non-sport life. Martina and Chris were, if not friends, at
    >> least really respective of each other off court.
    >>
    >> To define a great sport rivalry I'd say that you have to choose two
    >> athletes who both had been winning a lot at top level but none of them was
    >> completely dominating (there's no rivalry against a "Cannibal") and two
    >> that represent very different lifestyles.
    >>
    >> If you ask about the greatest sport rivalry where I live, they will talk
    >> you about the two best cyclists in the years immediately after WW2: Fausto
    >> Coppi and Gino Bartali. Both won a couple of Tour de France each (and a

    >lot
    >> of other races), so they really were the cream of the crop in their time.
    >> They didn't really like each other, for both sport and lifestyle reasons.
    >> In sport terms, Coppi started out as a young coequipier of Bartali, but
    >> then he betrayed his leader winning the 1940 Giro d'Italia in front of

    >him.
    >> But their lifestyles was what really tore them apart.
    >> Coppi was a very shy guy, really introvert and on his own. Bartali was

    >very
    >> aggressive, a man that used to shout in the public's face all his

    >thoughts.
    >> Coppi was a liberal, maybe even a libertine for his time, who left his

    >wife
    >> and kids to go living with another woman. Bartali was a catholic
    >> traditionalist, who really stood for a conservative vision of family life.
    >> Coppi was more talented but very moody, often a victim of adverse
    >> circumstances. Bartali was an ox, always fighting and often winning

    >against
    >> more gifted opponents.

    >
    >But why were Coppi and Bartali greater then Merckx?


    I didn't say that.
    If you read again, I wrote "the two best cyclists in the years immediately
    after WW2". Merckx was a professional between '66 and '76, that is not
    immediately after WW2, that's a completely different era. In fact when
    Merckx started winning Coppi was already dead.
    Of course I agree Merckx has been the best ever (maybe even the most
    winning overall athlete ever), but that was another time.
     
  3. Sierraman

    Sierraman Guest

    "Davide Tosi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:41[email protected]
    > "Trapper" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >Chris Evert v Martina Navratilova

    >
    > No way.
    > For a great rivalry you have to have athletes that don't like each others
    > also in their non-sport life. Martina and Chris were, if not friends, at
    > least really respective of each other off court.
    >
    > To define a great sport rivalry I'd say that you have to choose two
    > athletes who both had been winning a lot at top level but none of them was
    > completely dominating (there's no rivalry against a "Cannibal") and two
    > that represent very different lifestyles.
    >
    > If you ask about the greatest sport rivalry where I live, they will talk
    > you about the two best cyclists in the years immediately after WW2: Fausto
    > Coppi and Gino Bartali. Both won a couple of Tour de France each (and a

    lot
    > of other races), so they really were the cream of the crop in their time.
    > They didn't really like each other, for both sport and lifestyle reasons.
    > In sport terms, Coppi started out as a young coequipier of Bartali, but
    > then he betrayed his leader winning the 1940 Giro d'Italia in front of

    him.
    > But their lifestyles was what really tore them apart.
    > Coppi was a very shy guy, really introvert and on his own. Bartali was

    very
    > aggressive, a man that used to shout in the public's face all his

    thoughts.
    > Coppi was a liberal, maybe even a libertine for his time, who left his

    wife
    > and kids to go living with another woman. Bartali was a catholic
    > traditionalist, who really stood for a conservative vision of family life.
    > Coppi was more talented but very moody, often a victim of adverse
    > circumstances. Bartali was an ox, always fighting and often winning

    against
    > more gifted opponents.


    But why were Coppi and Bartali greater then Merckx?
     
  4. Sierraman, from <[email protected]>,
    in <news:[email protected]>, wrote:

    > But why were Coppi and Bartali greater then Merckx?


    If you would have a slight idea of the race conditions at the age of
    Coppi and Bartali you would already know the reply.

    --
    ale
    http://www.sen.it
    rara temporum felicitate, ubi sentire
    quae velis, et quae sentias dicere, licet
     
  5. Sierraman

    Sierraman Guest

    "Alessandro Riolo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > Sierraman, from <[email protected]>,
    > in <news:[email protected]>, wrote:
    >
    > > But why were Coppi and Bartali greater then Merckx?

    >
    > If you would have a slight idea of the race conditions at the age of
    > Coppi and Bartali you would already know the reply.


    So your subjective opinion is strictly based on race conditions? Does
    winning a third of the races you enter count for much?
    >
    > --
    > ale
    > http://www.sen.it
    > rara temporum felicitate, ubi sentire
    > quae velis, et quae sentias dicere, licet
    >
     
  6. Sierraman

    Sierraman Guest

    "David N. Welton" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > "Sierraman" <[email protected]> writes:
    >
    > > But why were Coppi and Bartali greater then Merckx?

    >
    > This thread is titled 'rivalry', and given that Merckx didn't really
    > *have* any...


    Argubly he had some, I could name half a dozen or so. Even so, this subject
    has been on rbr a few times, but like always most just beat around the bush
    and yet to offer a strong case why Coppi and Bartali were greater then
    Merckx. Most agree Merckx was the greatest but those who support Coppi and
    Bartali have never offered more then one liners as to why. As for me, I have
    no interest in debating it myself but would like to hear more then one
    liners from the Coppi, Bartali crowd as to (why) Coppi and Bartali were
    greater then Merckx.
    >
    > --
    > David N. Welton
    > Personal: http://www.dedasys.com/davidw/
    > Free Software: http://www.dedasys.com/freesoftware/
    > Apache Tcl: http://tcl.apache.org/
    > Photos: http://www.dedasys.com/photos/
     
  7. James

    James Guest

    [email protected] (Davide Tosi) wrote in
    news:[email protected]:

    > "Trapper" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    >>Chris Evert v Martina Navratilova

    >
    > No way.


    Ali v. Frazier, the great boxing trilogy of the 1970's with Frazier winning
    the first match and Ali the second two. These fights were epic struggles. I
    can think of no other sporting rivalry that involves two people locked in a
    direct collision of bodies and wills.
     
  8. Kenny

    Kenny Guest

    [email protected] (Davide Tosi) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > "Sierraman" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > >"Davide Tosi" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >news:[email protected]
    > >> "Trapper" <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >>
    > >> >Chris Evert v Martina Navratilova
    > >>
    > >> No way.
    > >> For a great rivalry you have to have athletes that don't like each others
    > >> also in their non-sport life. Martina and Chris were, if not friends, at
    > >> least really respective of each other off court.
    > >>
    > >> To define a great sport rivalry I'd say that you have to choose two
    > >> athletes who both had been winning a lot at top level but none of them was
    > >> completely dominating (there's no rivalry against a "Cannibal") and two
    > >> that represent very different lifestyles.
    > >>
    > >> If you ask about the greatest sport rivalry where I live, they will talk
    > >> you about the two best cyclists in the years immediately after WW2: Fausto
    > >> Coppi and Gino Bartali. Both won a couple of Tour de France each (and a

    > lot
    > >> of other races), so they really were the cream of the crop in their time.
    > >> They didn't really like each other, for both sport and lifestyle reasons.
    > >> In sport terms, Coppi started out as a young coequipier of Bartali, but
    > >> then he betrayed his leader winning the 1940 Giro d'Italia in front of

    > him.
    > >> But their lifestyles was what really tore them apart.
    > >> Coppi was a very shy guy, really introvert and on his own. Bartali was

    > very
    > >> aggressive, a man that used to shout in the public's face all his

    > thoughts.
    > >> Coppi was a liberal, maybe even a libertine for his time, who left his

    > wife
    > >> and kids to go living with another woman. Bartali was a catholic
    > >> traditionalist, who really stood for a conservative vision of family life.
    > >> Coppi was more talented but very moody, often a victim of adverse
    > >> circumstances. Bartali was an ox, always fighting and often winning

    > against
    > >> more gifted opponents.

    > >
    > >But why were Coppi and Bartali greater then Merckx?

    >
    > I didn't say that.
    > If you read again, I wrote "the two best cyclists in the years immediately
    > after WW2". Merckx was a professional between '66 and '76, that is not
    > immediately after WW2, that's a completely different era. In fact when
    > Merckx started winning Coppi was already dead.
    > Of course I agree Merckx has been the best ever (maybe even the most
    > winning overall athlete ever), but that was another time.


    Agreed!
    Here in Belgium there was some rivalry between the supporters clans of
    Van Looy and Merckx. After Van Looy, you had the Merckx-clan versus
    the De Vlaeminck clan. It was often so that kids were raised by their
    father in the spirit of supporting Merckx or De Vlaeminck. E.g when
    your father was a De Vlaeminck fan, the word "Merckx" couldn't be
    spoken on table.
     
  9. [email protected]otmail.com (Kenny) writes:

    > > I didn't say that.
    > > If you read again, I wrote "the two best cyclists in the years immediately
    > > after WW2". Merckx was a professional between '66 and '76, that is not
    > > immediately after WW2, that's a completely different era. In fact when
    > > Merckx started winning Coppi was already dead.
    > > Of course I agree Merckx has been the best ever (maybe even the most
    > > winning overall athlete ever), but that was another time.

    >
    > Agreed!
    > Here in Belgium there was some rivalry between the supporters clans of
    > Van Looy and Merckx. After Van Looy, you had the Merckx-clan versus
    > the De Vlaeminck clan. It was often so that kids were raised by their
    > father in the spirit of supporting Merckx or De Vlaeminck. E.g when
    > your father was a De Vlaeminck fan, the word "Merckx" couldn't be
    > spoken on table.


    The rivalry between the Merckx and Van Looy supporters bordered on
    fanaticism. And it wasn't limited to the tifosi either, particularly in
    Paris-Tours where the supporters of the respective clans solicited the
    riders for support for their chosen Idol promising wins at obscure
    Kermesse events in Flanders and elsewhere in exchange for the support.

    The main goal of course at P-T was to shut Eddy out and leave Rik as the
    only rider to have won all the Classics. Merckx never did in fact win them
    all.

    --
    le Vent a Dos. Davey Crockett
    http://petition.eurolinux.org ; http://members.rogers.com/sixday/sixday.html
    Please address all replies to the list
     
  10. Sierraman

    Sierraman Guest

    "Davey Crockett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]rs.com...
    > [email protected] (Kenny) writes:
    >
    > > > I didn't say that.
    > > > If you read again, I wrote "the two best cyclists in the years

    immediately
    > > > after WW2". Merckx was a professional between '66 and '76, that is not
    > > > immediately after WW2, that's a completely different era. In fact when
    > > > Merckx started winning Coppi was already dead.
    > > > Of course I agree Merckx has been the best ever (maybe even the most
    > > > winning overall athlete ever), but that was another time.

    > >
    > > Agreed!
    > > Here in Belgium there was some rivalry between the supporters clans of
    > > Van Looy and Merckx. After Van Looy, you had the Merckx-clan versus
    > > the De Vlaeminck clan. It was often so that kids were raised by their
    > > father in the spirit of supporting Merckx or De Vlaeminck. E.g when
    > > your father was a De Vlaeminck fan, the word "Merckx" couldn't be
    > > spoken on table.

    >
    > The rivalry between the Merckx and Van Looy supporters bordered on
    > fanaticism. And it wasn't limited to the tifosi either, particularly in
    > Paris-Tours where the supporters of the respective clans solicited the
    > riders for support for their chosen Idol promising wins at obscure
    > Kermesse events in Flanders and elsewhere in exchange for the support.
    >
    > The main goal of course at P-T was to shut Eddy out and leave Rik as the
    > only rider to have won all the Classics. Merckx never did in fact win them
    > all.


    But again, why do some say Coppi and Bartali was greater then Merckx? Can
    there be a strong case stated for this by the historians in the Coppi camp?
    >
    > --
    > le Vent a Dos. Davey Crockett
    > http://petition.eurolinux.org ;

    http://members.rogers.com/sixday/sixday.html
    > Please address all replies to the list
     
  11. Amit

    Amit Guest

    "Sierraman" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<TK2dnQ_xwKv_nkLdRVn->

    > But again, why do some say Coppi and Bartali was greater then Merckx?


    dumbass, the question was:what was the greatest rivalry ?

    even tosi agrees merckx was the most dominant - but that's not what
    the discussion is about.
     
  12. Sierraman

    Sierraman Guest

    "Amit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > "Sierraman" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<TK2dnQ_xwKv_nkLdRVn->
    >
    > > But again, why do some say Coppi and Bartali was greater then Merckx?

    >
    > dumbass, the question was:what was the greatest rivalry ?


    Dumbass, I changed the subject. It close enough to inquire into.
    >
    > even tosi agrees merckx was the most dominant - but that's not what
    > the discussion is about.
     
  13. Kenny

    Kenny Guest

    "Sierraman" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > "Davey Crockett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]rs.com...
    > > [email protected] (Kenny) writes:
    > >
    > > > > I didn't say that.
    > > > > If you read again, I wrote "the two best cyclists in the years

    > immediately
    > > > > after WW2". Merckx was a professional between '66 and '76, that is not
    > > > > immediately after WW2, that's a completely different era. In fact when
    > > > > Merckx started winning Coppi was already dead.
    > > > > Of course I agree Merckx has been the best ever (maybe even the most
    > > > > winning overall athlete ever), but that was another time.
    > > >
    > > > Agreed!
    > > > Here in Belgium there was some rivalry between the supporters clans of
    > > > Van Looy and Merckx. After Van Looy, you had the Merckx-clan versus
    > > > the De Vlaeminck clan. It was often so that kids were raised by their
    > > > father in the spirit of supporting Merckx or De Vlaeminck. E.g when
    > > > your father was a De Vlaeminck fan, the word "Merckx" couldn't be
    > > > spoken on table.

    > >
    > > The rivalry between the Merckx and Van Looy supporters bordered on
    > > fanaticism. And it wasn't limited to the tifosi either, particularly in
    > > Paris-Tours where the supporters of the respective clans solicited the
    > > riders for support for their chosen Idol promising wins at obscure
    > > Kermesse events in Flanders and elsewhere in exchange for the support.
    > >
    > > The main goal of course at P-T was to shut Eddy out and leave Rik as the
    > > only rider to have won all the Classics. Merckx never did in fact win them
    > > all.

    >
    > But again, why do some say Coppi and Bartali was greater then Merckx? Can
    > there be a strong case stated for this by the historians in the Coppi camp?
    > >
    > > --
    > > le Vent a Dos. Davey Crockett
    > > http://petition.eurolinux.org ;

    > http://members.rogers.com/sixday/sixday.html
    > > Please address all replies to the list


    Think it has somthing to do with the fact that Coppi was some kind of
    mystical and mysterious figure. His love affair with the lady in
    white. Died young. etc
    Ofcourse Bartali and then Coppi rode in a whole other era than Merckx
    did. Think there is a huge difference between Cycling in the 30's -
    40's and the 70's. The perception is also changed. Very much the
    same as we sometimes compare cycling of the 60's-70's with now.
     
  14. Sierraman

    Sierraman Guest

    "Kenny" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > "Sierraman" <[email protected]> wrote in message

    news:<[email protected]>...
    > > "Davey Crockett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > >

    news:[email protected]rs.com...
    > > > [email protected] (Kenny) writes:
    > > >
    > > > > > I didn't say that.
    > > > > > If you read again, I wrote "the two best cyclists in the years

    > > immediately
    > > > > > after WW2". Merckx was a professional between '66 and '76, that is

    not
    > > > > > immediately after WW2, that's a completely different era. In fact

    when
    > > > > > Merckx started winning Coppi was already dead.
    > > > > > Of course I agree Merckx has been the best ever (maybe even the

    most
    > > > > > winning overall athlete ever), but that was another time.
    > > > >
    > > > > Agreed!
    > > > > Here in Belgium there was some rivalry between the supporters clans

    of
    > > > > Van Looy and Merckx. After Van Looy, you had the Merckx-clan versus
    > > > > the De Vlaeminck clan. It was often so that kids were raised by

    their
    > > > > father in the spirit of supporting Merckx or De Vlaeminck. E.g when
    > > > > your father was a De Vlaeminck fan, the word "Merckx" couldn't be
    > > > > spoken on table.
    > > >
    > > > The rivalry between the Merckx and Van Looy supporters bordered on
    > > > fanaticism. And it wasn't limited to the tifosi either, particularly

    in
    > > > Paris-Tours where the supporters of the respective clans solicited the
    > > > riders for support for their chosen Idol promising wins at obscure
    > > > Kermesse events in Flanders and elsewhere in exchange for the support.
    > > >
    > > > The main goal of course at P-T was to shut Eddy out and leave Rik as

    the
    > > > only rider to have won all the Classics. Merckx never did in fact win

    them
    > > > all.

    > >
    > > But again, why do some say Coppi and Bartali was greater then Merckx?

    Can
    > > there be a strong case stated for this by the historians in the Coppi

    camp?
    > > >
    > > > --
    > > > le Vent a Dos. Davey Crockett
    > > > http://petition.eurolinux.org ;

    > > http://members.rogers.com/sixday/sixday.html
    > > > Please address all replies to the list

    >
    > Think it has somthing to do with the fact that Coppi was some kind of
    > mystical and mysterious figure. His love affair with the lady in
    > white. Died young. etc
    > Ofcourse Bartali and then Coppi rode in a whole other era than Merckx
    > did. Think there is a huge difference between Cycling in the 30's -
    > 40's and the 70's. The perception is also changed. Very much the
    > same as we sometimes compare cycling of the 60's-70's with now.


    Yeah, things like that. I thought they might say something like it had to do
    with character, chrisma, and how they won their races, and how they were
    endeared to the fans of that time, which in their minds and the minds of
    historians in that camp make them better men then Merckx. As for their
    rivals, Merckx also has half a dozen decent players to cope with in his
    time. Road conditions certainly were a factor back then but Merckx also won
    nearly a third of the races he entered so to weigh one against the other is
    hard and there are other factors. I suppose their is a book somewhere about
    why Coppi and Bartali are better then Merckx.
     
  15. Kenny

    Kenny Guest

    "Sierraman" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > "Kenny" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > "Sierraman" <[email protected]> wrote in message

    > news:<[email protected]>...
    > > > "Davey Crockett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > >

    > news:[email protected]rs.com...
    > > > > [email protected] (Kenny) writes:
    > > > >
    > > > > > > I didn't say that.
    > > > > > > If you read again, I wrote "the two best cyclists in the years

    > immediately
    > > > > > > after WW2". Merckx was a professional between '66 and '76, that is

    > not
    > > > > > > immediately after WW2, that's a completely different era. In fact

    > when
    > > > > > > Merckx started winning Coppi was already dead.
    > > > > > > Of course I agree Merckx has been the best ever (maybe even the

    > most
    > > > > > > winning overall athlete ever), but that was another time.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Agreed!
    > > > > > Here in Belgium there was some rivalry between the supporters clans

    > of
    > > > > > Van Looy and Merckx. After Van Looy, you had the Merckx-clan versus
    > > > > > the De Vlaeminck clan. It was often so that kids were raised by

    > their
    > > > > > father in the spirit of supporting Merckx or De Vlaeminck. E.g when
    > > > > > your father was a De Vlaeminck fan, the word "Merckx" couldn't be
    > > > > > spoken on table.
    > > > >
    > > > > The rivalry between the Merckx and Van Looy supporters bordered on
    > > > > fanaticism. And it wasn't limited to the tifosi either, particularly

    > in
    > > > > Paris-Tours where the supporters of the respective clans solicited the
    > > > > riders for support for their chosen Idol promising wins at obscure
    > > > > Kermesse events in Flanders and elsewhere in exchange for the support.
    > > > >
    > > > > The main goal of course at P-T was to shut Eddy out and leave Rik as

    > the
    > > > > only rider to have won all the Classics. Merckx never did in fact win

    > them
    > > > > all.
    > > >
    > > > But again, why do some say Coppi and Bartali was greater then Merckx?

    > Can
    > > > there be a strong case stated for this by the historians in the Coppi

    > camp?
    > > > >
    > > > > --
    > > > > le Vent a Dos. Davey Crockett
    > > > > http://petition.eurolinux.org ;

    > http://members.rogers.com/sixday/sixday.html
    > > > > Please address all replies to the list

    > >
    > > Think it has somthing to do with the fact that Coppi was some kind of
    > > mystical and mysterious figure. His love affair with the lady in
    > > white. Died young. etc
    > > Ofcourse Bartali and then Coppi rode in a whole other era than Merckx
    > > did. Think there is a huge difference between Cycling in the 30's -
    > > 40's and the 70's. The perception is also changed. Very much the
    > > same as we sometimes compare cycling of the 60's-70's with now.

    >
    > Yeah, things like that. I thought they might say something like it had to do
    > with character, chrisma, and how they won their races, and how they were
    > endeared to the fans of that time, which in their minds and the minds of
    > historians in that camp make them better men then Merckx. As for their
    > rivals, Merckx also has half a dozen decent players to cope with in his
    > time. Road conditions certainly were a factor back then but Merckx also won
    > nearly a third of the races he entered so to weigh one against the other is
    > hard and there are other factors. I suppose their is a book somewhere about
    > why Coppi and Bartali are better then Merckx.


    That's where some people are wrong: there is nobody better than
    Merckx. And when you talk about character, you talk about Merckx.
    Why else did he suffer so much during his carreer.
     
  16. Sierraman

    Sierraman Guest

    "Kenny" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > "Sierraman" <[email protected]> wrote in message

    news:<[email protected]>...
    > > "Kenny" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > news:[email protected]
    > > > "Sierraman" <[email protected]> wrote in message

    > > news:<[email protected]>...
    > > > > "Davey Crockett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > > >

    > >

    news:[email protected]rs.com...
    > > > > > [email protected] (Kenny) writes:
    > > > > >
    > > > > > > > I didn't say that.
    > > > > > > > If you read again, I wrote "the two best cyclists in the years

    > > immediately
    > > > > > > > after WW2". Merckx was a professional between '66 and '76,

    that is
    > > not
    > > > > > > > immediately after WW2, that's a completely different era. In

    fact
    > > when
    > > > > > > > Merckx started winning Coppi was already dead.
    > > > > > > > Of course I agree Merckx has been the best ever (maybe even

    the
    > > most
    > > > > > > > winning overall athlete ever), but that was another time.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > Agreed!
    > > > > > > Here in Belgium there was some rivalry between the supporters

    clans
    > > of
    > > > > > > Van Looy and Merckx. After Van Looy, you had the Merckx-clan

    versus
    > > > > > > the De Vlaeminck clan. It was often so that kids were raised by

    > > their
    > > > > > > father in the spirit of supporting Merckx or De Vlaeminck. E.g

    when
    > > > > > > your father was a De Vlaeminck fan, the word "Merckx" couldn't

    be
    > > > > > > spoken on table.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > The rivalry between the Merckx and Van Looy supporters bordered on
    > > > > > fanaticism. And it wasn't limited to the tifosi either,

    particularly
    > > in
    > > > > > Paris-Tours where the supporters of the respective clans solicited

    the
    > > > > > riders for support for their chosen Idol promising wins at obscure
    > > > > > Kermesse events in Flanders and elsewhere in exchange for the

    support.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > The main goal of course at P-T was to shut Eddy out and leave Rik

    as
    > > the
    > > > > > only rider to have won all the Classics. Merckx never did in fact

    win
    > > them
    > > > > > all.
    > > > >
    > > > > But again, why do some say Coppi and Bartali was greater then

    Merckx?
    > > Can
    > > > > there be a strong case stated for this by the historians in the

    Coppi
    > > camp?
    > > > > >
    > > > > > --
    > > > > > le Vent a Dos. Davey Crockett
    > > > > > http://petition.eurolinux.org ;

    > > http://members.rogers.com/sixday/sixday.html
    > > > > > Please address all replies to the list
    > > >
    > > > Think it has somthing to do with the fact that Coppi was some kind of
    > > > mystical and mysterious figure. His love affair with the lady in
    > > > white. Died young. etc
    > > > Ofcourse Bartali and then Coppi rode in a whole other era than Merckx
    > > > did. Think there is a huge difference between Cycling in the 30's -
    > > > 40's and the 70's. The perception is also changed. Very much the
    > > > same as we sometimes compare cycling of the 60's-70's with now.

    > >
    > > Yeah, things like that. I thought they might say something like it had

    to do
    > > with character, chrisma, and how they won their races, and how they were
    > > endeared to the fans of that time, which in their minds and the minds of
    > > historians in that camp make them better men then Merckx. As for their
    > > rivals, Merckx also has half a dozen decent players to cope with in his
    > > time. Road conditions certainly were a factor back then but Merckx also

    won
    > > nearly a third of the races he entered so to weigh one against the other

    is
    > > hard and there are other factors. I suppose their is a book somewhere

    about
    > > why Coppi and Bartali are better then Merckx.

    >
    > That's where some people are wrong: there is nobody better than
    > Merckx. And when you talk about character, you talk about Merckx.
    > Why else did he suffer so much during his carreer.


    I always thought Merckx was the best, but others who say no, it's Coppi,
    Bartali and then and (only then) comes Merckx is very perplexing to me. What
    would support such a powerful statement like that? What are they thinking?
     
  17. Kenny

    Kenny Guest

    "Sierraman" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
    > "Kenny" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    > > "Sierraman" <[email protected]> wrote in message

    > news:<[email protected]>...
    > > > "Kenny" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > > news:[email protected]
    > > > > "Sierraman" <[email protected]> wrote in message

    > news:<[email protected]>...
    > > > > > "Davey Crockett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > > > > >
    > > >

    > news:[email protected]rs.com...
    > > > > > > [email protected] (Kenny) writes:
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > I didn't say that.
    > > > > > > > > If you read again, I wrote "the two best cyclists in the years

    > immediately
    > > > > > > > > after WW2". Merckx was a professional between '66 and '76,

    > that is
    > not
    > > > > > > > > immediately after WW2, that's a completely different era. In

    > fact
    > when
    > > > > > > > > Merckx started winning Coppi was already dead.
    > > > > > > > > Of course I agree Merckx has been the best ever (maybe even

    > the
    > most
    > > > > > > > > winning overall athlete ever), but that was another time.
    > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > Agreed!
    > > > > > > > Here in Belgium there was some rivalry between the supporters

    > clans
    > of
    > > > > > > > Van Looy and Merckx. After Van Looy, you had the Merckx-clan

    > versus
    > > > > > > > the De Vlaeminck clan. It was often so that kids were raised by

    > their
    > > > > > > > father in the spirit of supporting Merckx or De Vlaeminck. E.g

    > when
    > > > > > > > your father was a De Vlaeminck fan, the word "Merckx" couldn't

    > be
    > > > > > > > spoken on table.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > The rivalry between the Merckx and Van Looy supporters bordered on
    > > > > > > fanaticism. And it wasn't limited to the tifosi either,

    > particularly
    > in
    > > > > > > Paris-Tours where the supporters of the respective clans solicited

    > the
    > > > > > > riders for support for their chosen Idol promising wins at obscure
    > > > > > > Kermesse events in Flanders and elsewhere in exchange for the

    > support.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > The main goal of course at P-T was to shut Eddy out and leave Rik

    > as
    > the
    > > > > > > only rider to have won all the Classics. Merckx never did in fact

    > win
    > them
    > > > > > > all.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > But again, why do some say Coppi and Bartali was greater then

    > Merckx?
    > Can
    > > > > > there be a strong case stated for this by the historians in the

    > Coppi
    > camp?
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > --
    > > > > > > le Vent a Dos. Davey Crockett
    > > > > > > http://petition.eurolinux.org ;

    > http://members.rogers.com/sixday/sixday.html
    > > > > > > Please address all replies to the list
    > > > >
    > > > > Think it has somthing to do with the fact that Coppi was some kind of
    > > > > mystical and mysterious figure. His love affair with the lady in
    > > > > white. Died young. etc
    > > > > Ofcourse Bartali and then Coppi rode in a whole other era than Merckx
    > > > > did. Think there is a huge difference between Cycling in the 30's -
    > > > > 40's and the 70's. The perception is also changed. Very much the
    > > > > same as we sometimes compare cycling of the 60's-70's with now.
    > > >
    > > > Yeah, things like that. I thought they might say something like it had

    > to do
    > > > with character, chrisma, and how they won their races, and how they were
    > > > endeared to the fans of that time, which in their minds and the minds of
    > > > historians in that camp make them better men then Merckx. As for their
    > > > rivals, Merckx also has half a dozen decent players to cope with in his
    > > > time. Road conditions certainly were a factor back then but Merckx also

    > won
    > > > nearly a third of the races he entered so to weigh one against the other

    > is
    > > > hard and there are other factors. I suppose their is a book somewhere

    > about
    > > > why Coppi and Bartali are better then Merckx.

    > >
    > > That's where some people are wrong: there is nobody better than
    > > Merckx. And when you talk about character, you talk about Merckx.
    > > Why else did he suffer so much during his carreer.

    >
    > I always thought Merckx was the best,

    You don't THINK Merckx is the best, Merckx IS the best.
     
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