Re: "brittle" vs. non-ductile: the score - continued



In article
<[email protected]>,
"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Again, this thread makes wild extrapolations based upon minimal data.


Address matters as they arise when it matters enough to
you. Editorializing and generalizing without citation
makes you look like a mud slinger and a cheerleader for
a faction.

> That
> annoys the heck out of me. And that's why I'm still in this thread. You can
> try to rationalize my position as worthless because you think I want to
> "spin" it. Fine. Just please get me more information about this crash. Show
> me something beyond that photo and the one paragraph description of the
> accident.


--
Michael Press
 
Michael Press wrote:
> In article
> <[email protected]>,
> "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Again, this thread makes wild extrapolations based upon minimal data.

>
> Address matters as they arise when it matters enough to
> you. Editorializing and generalizing without citation


er, how often are /you/ going to bother to cite a technical article if
the underinformed, under i.q.ed and and
terminally-incapable-of-being-open-to-new-information simply dismiss it
as mumbo jumbo? just get straight to the point and start the abuse.

unless the underinformed, under i.q.ed and and terminally incapable
actually evidence wanting to /try/ to learn something, i see no point
wasting time. most of those idiots, retards, etc. are not here for any
damned thing other than to have fight, so let them have it.


> makes you look like a mud slinger and a cheerleader for
> a faction.


and those incapable of learning look like what?


>
>> That
>> annoys the heck out of me. And that's why I'm still in this thread. You can
>> try to rationalize my position as worthless because you think I want to
>> "spin" it. Fine. Just please get me more information about this crash. Show
>> me something beyond that photo and the one paragraph description of the
>> accident.

>
 
>> Again, this thread makes wild extrapolations based upon minimal data.
>
> Address matters as they arise when it matters enough to
> you. Editorializing and generalizing without citation
> makes you look like a mud slinger and a cheerleader for
> a faction.



Yeah, I know. Must resist responding too often; I should wait until relevant
new material presents itself. Given the history of this thread, the most
appropriate action would simply be to kill-file it.

So why do *you* hang around? What's in it for you? What's in it for me?
Maybe it's that watching-a-train-wreck thing. Only worse, 'cuz in person you
only see it once. This is the you-tube version, where you get to see it
again, and again, and again.

This thread really *is* designed to bring out the worst in us! :>)

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com



"Michael Press" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article
> <[email protected]>,
> "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Again, this thread makes wild extrapolations based upon minimal data.

>
> Address matters as they arise when it matters enough to
> you. Editorializing and generalizing without citation
> makes you look like a mud slinger and a cheerleader for
> a faction.
>
>> That
>> annoys the heck out of me. And that's why I'm still in this thread. You
>> can
>> try to rationalize my position as worthless because you think I want to
>> "spin" it. Fine. Just please get me more information about this crash.
>> Show
>> me something beyond that photo and the one paragraph description of the
>> accident.

>
> --
> Michael Press
 
On 2007-09-14, jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:
[...]
> er, how often are /you/ going to bother to cite a technical article if
> the underinformed, under i.q.ed and and
> terminally-incapable-of-being-open-to-new-information simply dismiss it
> as mumbo jumbo? just get straight to the point and start the abuse.
>
> unless the underinformed, under i.q.ed and and terminally incapable
> actually evidence wanting to /try/ to learn something, i see no point
> wasting time. most of those idiots, retards, etc. are not here for any
> damned thing other than to have fight, so let them have it.


It's better not to let them have a fight, and either write good (or at
least sincere) stuff or nothing at all. No-one remembers or cares who
started the fights, just that they go on and on and are a waste of time.
Certainly no-one cares who wins them, they've probably killed the thread
by then anyway.

If you are worried that someone who looks like they're asking a real
question is really picking a fight, you might as well just answer the
question properly anyway, if that's what you were going to do, since
it's not just them you're addressing. That way you can sometimes turn an
incipient fight back into a decent discussion. If it looks remotely like
a real question, even if asked by a known idiot or retard, it will do.
There's also going to be a percentage of times when it _was_ a real
question and then the OP is going to be quite angry at having been
snapped at, and so naturally things are going to escalate.

It's not my business to tell you what to do but this is just a
suggestion for a way to end up wasting less time.
 
jim beam wrote:
> Peter Cole wrote:
>> Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:


>>> All the while maintaining that it's not relevant that, in the real
>>> world, people aren't dying right & left due to failing frames.
>>> Because they *should* be, I guess.

>>
>> Statements like that aren't helpful.

>
> oh dear!!! naughty man doesn't agree with you! why not call him a
> liar? oh, you just question competence and trivialize experience
> instead - typical peter cole.


No, "dying left & right" is hyperbole, and nothing like what anybody is
claiming.

I know of only one recent local fatality from equipment failure, and
that seemed to have been a freak event. I know of several cases of
equipment failure, most did not cause crashes. Of the crashes I know of,
including a few fork-related, the worst case was broken collarbone and
road rash. The only source of "serious injury or death" warnings seems
to be the manufacturers.

> why not call him a
> liar?


Why put words in my mouth? I don't call people liars, you do.
 
Ben C wrote:

> If it looks remotely like
> a real question, even if asked by a known idiot or retard, it will do.


I haven't noticed any "idiots" or "retards", just people who call those
names. Are you one of those, too?
 
Doug Taylor wrote:

> I think what we are seeing is a precursor to Godwin's Law:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law
>
> As often observed at family holiday dinner tables, accelerated there
> by the fuel of alcohol, what commences as a "discussion," devolves
> into a "disagreement," descends into an "argument," degenerates into
> "name calling and insults," and culminates as a "fistfight."


The disagreement has a turning point when name calling starts. Dies it
take so much restraint to avoid that?
 
On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 07:23:40 -0400, Peter Cole
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Doug Taylor wrote:
>
>> I think what we are seeing is a precursor to Godwin's Law:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law
>>
>> As often observed at family holiday dinner tables, accelerated there
>> by the fuel of alcohol, what commences as a "discussion," devolves
>> into a "disagreement," descends into an "argument," degenerates into
>> "name calling and insults," and culminates as a "fistfight."

>
>The disagreement has a turning point when name calling starts. Dies it
>take so much restraint to avoid that?


In meat space? Of course not. On usenet? Nah - it's anonymous.

Accordingly, I think we're ready for someone to invoke Nazis and
****** and thereby end the thread.

I draw my personal line at name calling and insults, so I'll defer to
someone even more obnoxious to play the Nazi card.
 
jim beam wrote:
> Michael Press wrote:


>> Address matters as they arise when it matters enough to
>> you. Editorializing and generalizing without citation

>
> er, how often are /you/ going to bother to cite a technical article if
> the underinformed, under i.q.ed and and
> terminally-incapable-of-being-open-to-new-information simply dismiss it
> as mumbo jumbo? just get straight to the point and start the abuse.


So, abuse is the point?


> unless the underinformed, under i.q.ed and and terminally incapable
> actually evidence wanting to /try/ to learn something, i see no point
> wasting time. most of those idiots, retards, etc. are not here for any
> damned thing other than to have fight, so let them have it.


Right, just start insulting people immediately, because you're smarter
than all of them. You are such an asset to this NG.
 
On 2007-09-14, Peter Cole <[email protected]> wrote:
> Ben C wrote:
>
> > If it looks remotely like
>> a real question, even if asked by a known idiot or retard, it will do.

>
> I haven't noticed any "idiots" or "retards", just people who call those
> names. Are you one of those, too?


Of course not. I said "if" not "when".
 
Ben C wrote:
> On 2007-09-14, Peter Cole <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Ben C wrote:
>>
>>> If it looks remotely like
>>> a real question, even if asked by a known idiot or retard, it will do.

>> I haven't noticed any "idiots" or "retards", just people who call those
>> names. Are you one of those, too?

>
> Of course not. I said "if" not "when".


p.c. always misperceives the need to fight.
 
Ben C wrote:
> On 2007-09-14, Peter Cole <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Ben C wrote:
>>
>>> If it looks remotely like
>>> a real question, even if asked by a known idiot or retard, it will do.

>> I haven't noticed any "idiots" or "retards", just people who call those
>> names. Are you one of those, too?

>
> Of course not. I said "if" not "when".


OK, you think it's a hypothetical question, i.e. what to do *if* a
"known idiot" or "retard" asks a question. That clears it up.

"jim beam" has several "known idiots" and "retards". Were you aware of that?

Perhaps, to be less ambiguous, you should have said: answer the question
regardless of whether *you think* the person is a "known idiot" or
"retard".

No opinion on the existence of "known retards" and "idiots" or the
practice of using those names?
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Peter Cole <[email protected]> wrote:

> Doug Taylor wrote:
>
> > I think what we are seeing is a precursor to Godwin's Law:
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law
> >
> > As often observed at family holiday dinner tables, accelerated
> > there by the fuel of alcohol, what commences as a "discussion,"
> > devolves into a "disagreement," descends into an "argument,"
> > degenerates into "name calling and insults," and culminates as a
> > "fistfight."

>
> The disagreement has a turning point when name calling starts. Dies
> it take so much restraint to avoid that?


Apparently the answer to that is "yes." ;-) Mike J. studiously avoids
descending into name calling, however.
 
In article <[email protected]>,
"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email protected]> wrote:

> So why do *you* hang around? What's in it for you? What's in it for
> me? Maybe it's that watching-a-train-wreck thing. Only worse, 'cuz in
> person you only see it once. This is the you-tube version, where you
> get to see it again, and again, and again.


That made me laugh.

I hand around because I have actually learned a lot about bikes.
There's a lot of chaff to be separated from the wheat, to be sure, but
there is some very good quality wheat to be found.
 
On Sep 14, 8:44 am, Tim McNamara <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Peter Cole <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Doug Taylor wrote:

>
> > > I think what we are seeing is a precursor to Godwin's Law:
> > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law

>
> > > As often observed at family holiday dinner tables, accelerated
> > > there by the fuel of alcohol, what commences as a "discussion,"
> > > devolves into a "disagreement," descends into an "argument,"
> > > degenerates into "name calling and insults," and culminates as
> > > "fistfight."

>
> > The disagreement has a turning point when name calling starts. Dies
> > it take so much restraint to avoid that?

>
> Apparently the answer to that is "yes." ;-) Mike J. studiously avoids
> descending into name calling, however.


Actually, the name calling adds spice to the whole experience. I
realize that some don't have the stomach for that, but I find it
amusing. I think that jb and jambo going at each other has been pretty
entertaining to me. While it does not bother me if someone calls me
names, I understand that it may bother others. My suggestion is, just
ignore threads where name calling is used, or simply avoid the posts
by the name callers.

It should be pretty clear for example that, at this point jb and jambo
will use explicit language against each other. The will likely not add
anything new to the discussion. So, all that people have to do is
avoid reading posts between these two characters if they find the
exchanges bothersome.

OTOH, we can get some balls like the participants in the racing group.
Over there they preface everything with dumbass or something like
that. So, namecalling pretty much becomes irrelevant once they get
over the intro.

another alternative is to preface everything a la Carl. Dear so and
so. Nobody would dare insult Carl, no matter how much we disagree with
him. He is always so F----g polite and F----g helpful that it is
almost disturbing.

something else to note is that we can be sometimes very offensive, be-
littleing without any name calling. Jobst is clearly the master at
that. He can tell people that they are stupid and ignorant in many
different ways without ever using foul language. It must be the
standford connection. Those northern Californians are so pc.

Andres
 
On 2007-09-14, Peter Cole <[email protected]> wrote:
[...]
> No opinion on the existence of "known retards" and "idiots" or the
> practice of using those names?


I don't believe any of the posters here to be idiots or retards myself.
But the question is irrelevant. If you [I don't mean you personally]
want proper discussions and not fights, don't call people names or make
personal remarks whatever you think of them. If on the other hand you do
want fights, then do call them names, whatever you think of them.

It's a simple point but I made it because I thought jim beam was
complaining about people picking fights. But that may have been my
misinterpretation.
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Peter Cole <[email protected]> wrote:

> jim beam wrote:
> > Michael Press wrote:

>
> >> Address matters as they arise when it matters enough to you.
> >> Editorializing and generalizing without citation

> >
> > er, how often are /you/ going to bother to cite a technical article
> > if the underinformed, under i.q.ed and and
> > terminally-incapable-of-being-open-to-new-information simply
> > dismiss it as mumbo jumbo?


And yet when others post references, many if not most of us go and check
it out. Being that the Internets about with resources that are easy to
find thanks to the Google, the resistance is not to new information but
to accepting declarations based on the arrogated authority of an
anonymous sock puppet. Especially when the available literature in the
field of said anonymous sock puppet's claimed field of expertise
contradicts the claims of said anonymous sock puppet.

> > just get straight to the point and start the abuse.

>
> So, abuse is the point?


It does seem to be for jim. He has long since stopped providing any
actual information.

> > unless the underinformed, under i.q.ed and and terminally incapable
> > actually evidence wanting to /try/ to learn something, i see no
> > point wasting time. most of those idiots, retards, etc. are not
> > here for any damned thing other than to have fight, so let them
> > have it.

>
> Right, just start insulting people immediately, because you're
> smarter than all of them. You are such an asset to this NG.


That about sums it up.

As Mike points out in another post, "jim beam" like many on Usenet
(myself included) is probably not near as arrogant and stupidly vicious
in person. Nobody would have anything to do with such a person- they'd
be unemployable and would have no friends. Anonymity tends to increase
aggression; even when we use our real names we remain fairly anonymous
to each other because we don't see a person, we just see the writing on
the screen. The more anonymous we are, the more likely we are to be
aggressive.

We probably develop context-specific "aggressive scripts" as a way of
functioning in the world in general and with repetition these scripts
become activated much more easily. Usenet and the Internet in general
provide a number of conditions conducive to aggressive behavior (e.g.,
anonymity as already noted, ambiguous social cues, impoverishment of
information [no nonverbal cues such as tone of voice, facial expression,
movements or posture which carry a large part of the meaning of a
statement], low risk of adverse consequences from aggressive behavior,
frequent frustration as one comes up against hardened positions taken by
others, etc.). Most of the aggressive behavior on the Internet would be
characterized as "instrumental aggression," in which the aggression is
not intended to injure or kill but as a way to achieve some other goal.

Some of us do a better job than the rest of managing our base impulses.
Most of us should do a better job of it.
 
In article
<[email protected]>,
jim beam <[email protected]> wrote:

> Michael Press wrote:
> > In article
> > <[email protected]>,
> > "Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Again, this thread makes wild extrapolations based upon minimal data.

> >
> > Address matters as they arise when it matters enough to
> > you. Editorializing and generalizing without citation

>
> er, how often are /you/ going to bother to cite a technical article if


Cite a posting where the undesirable activity transpires.
You did not read what I wrote at all closely.

--
Michael Press
 
In article <[email protected]>,
"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email protected]> wrote:

> >> Again, this thread makes wild extrapolations based upon minimal data.

> >
> > Address matters as they arise when it matters enough to
> > you. Editorializing and generalizing without citation
> > makes you look like a mud slinger and a cheerleader for
> > a faction.

>
>
> Yeah, I know. Must resist responding too often; I should wait until relevant
> new material presents itself. Given the history of this thread, the most
> appropriate action would simply be to kill-file it.


When I used `citation' I was not clear. I meant cite a
message by a poster here that manifests the activity
you consider ill advised. Saying that a thread
manifests some activity tars everyone with the same
brush.

> So why do *you* hang around? What's in it for you? What's in it for me?
> Maybe it's that watching-a-train-wreck thing. Only worse, 'cuz in person you
> only see it once. This is the you-tube version, where you get to see it
> again, and again, and again.
>
> This thread really *is* designed to bring out the worst in us! :>)


Smiley noted.

--
Michael Press
 
Tim McNamara wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Peter Cole <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> jim beam wrote:
>>> Michael Press wrote:
>>>> Address matters as they arise when it matters enough to you.
>>>> Editorializing and generalizing without citation
>>> er, how often are /you/ going to bother to cite a technical article
>>> if the underinformed, under i.q.ed and and
>>> terminally-incapable-of-being-open-to-new-information simply
>>> dismiss it as mumbo jumbo?

>
> And yet when others post references, many if not most of us go and check
> it out. Being that the Internets about with resources that are easy to
> find thanks to the Google, the resistance is not to new information but
> to accepting declarations based on the arrogated authority of an
> anonymous sock puppet. Especially when the available literature in the
> field of said anonymous sock puppet's claimed field of expertise
> contradicts the claims of said anonymous sock puppet.
>
>>> just get straight to the point and start the abuse.

>> So, abuse is the point?

>
> It does seem to be for jim. He has long since stopped providing any
> actual information.
>
>>> unless the underinformed, under i.q.ed and and terminally incapable
>>> actually evidence wanting to /try/ to learn something, i see no
>>> point wasting time. most of those idiots, retards, etc. are not
>>> here for any damned thing other than to have fight, so let them
>>> have it.

>> Right, just start insulting people immediately, because you're
>> smarter than all of them. You are such an asset to this NG.

>
> That about sums it up.
>
> As Mike points out in another post, "jim beam" like many on Usenet
> (myself included) is probably not near as arrogant and stupidly vicious
> in person. Nobody would have anything to do with such a person- they'd
> be unemployable and would have no friends. Anonymity tends to increase
> aggression; even when we use our real names we remain fairly anonymous
> to each other because we don't see a person, we just see the writing on
> the screen. The more anonymous we are, the more likely we are to be
> aggressive.
>
> We probably develop context-specific "aggressive scripts" as a way of
> functioning in the world in general and with repetition these scripts
> become activated much more easily. Usenet and the Internet in general
> provide a number of conditions conducive to aggressive behavior (e.g.,
> anonymity as already noted, ambiguous social cues, impoverishment of
> information [no nonverbal cues such as tone of voice, facial expression,
> movements or posture which carry a large part of the meaning of a
> statement], low risk of adverse consequences from aggressive behavior,
> frequent frustration as one comes up against hardened positions taken by
> others, etc.). Most of the aggressive behavior on the Internet would be
> characterized as "instrumental aggression," in which the aggression is
> not intended to injure or kill but as a way to achieve some other goal.
>
> Some of us do a better job than the rest of managing our base impulses.
> Most of us should do a better job of it.


You raise some interesting points. I guess the question for me is which
of our "personas" is the "real" us -- face to face, or virtual. I'm more
inclined to believe that people inhibit their real reactions/prejudices
in face to face as opposed to the anonymity of the Internet. My mother
used to say "Always believe a drunk.", suggesting that loss of
inhibitions allowed true feelings to emerge. I know (in the real world)
I appear somewhat opinionated and blunt, but people often seek me out
for honest opinions. In juxtaposition to that, I'm a very amiable drunk.

Besides the learning opportunities, this kind of forum provides
something that an ad hoc discussion at the coffee shop doesn't -- a
transcript. If you're at all a student of interpersonal dynamics,
reviewing threads can be fascinating. In theory, the facelessness of the
virtual world should let us form impressions via content rather than
appearance; in actuality, perhaps it only serves to allow us to project
our own biases easier. I don't know. The only person I've known under
both personas seems pretty much the same in both worlds. Perhaps
conversations don't get as fractious at Starbucks, but they're rarely as
substantial, either. Perhaps the discussions here get heated because
they're really to hot to handle in the real world.

Besides all the "he said, she said", there is the reality that a good
argument forces you to go digging and actually learn some new stuff. The
input of resident or visiting experts is a unique resource. This is the
only NG I post on, but I've done many projects where I've Googled NG
archives and dug up leads or answers that I wouldn't have found any
other way. I rebuilt a car engine this winter, for instance. I was saved
many "gotchas".
 

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