Re: cyclist nearly kills himself



Nick Finnigan wrote:
> Al C-F wrote:
>>>

>>
>> The driving competency test is mandatory. Not so for cyclists.

>
> The driving competency test is not mandatory.


Do you ever have anything useful to add, or do you only contradict?
 
TripleS wrote:
> Conor wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>, TripleS says...
>>
>>> Pardon my ignorance, but what is meant by Primary position? Does it
>>> mean cycling down the middle of a lane in order prevent (or at least
>>> discourage) a driver from overtaking you?

>>
>> Pretty much. It's supposed to be slightly to the right as I recall
>> on a motorbike.
>>

>
> Thanks for that.
>
> I've noticed motorcyclists often position themselves just to the left
> of the centre-line as standard procedure on single carriageway roads,
> even when it appears to offer no advantage to them. This can be a
> nuisance if you're looking to overtake them* and it can give the
> impression that they're trying to be obstructive, though they may not
> be.
> * Yes OK, I do appreciate that normally it's the bikers who are doing
> the overtaking!


If you you look at the position of the driver, rather than the vehicle, they
should be occupying the same relative position on the road as a car or van
driver.
 
TripleS wrote:

> Further observation: A fair number of cycle lanes appear to be a
> complete waste of time and money, as they are often applied in such a
> piecemeal fashion.


Almost all of them in my experience are at least as bad as that.

--
Dave...
 
p.k. wrote:

> Lots of cycle lanes here in Merton are simply too narrow to be useful, but
> cannot be wider because of limited road width. In would be safer not to have
> the lane at all!


Part of the advantage would be direct and practical safety, and another
benefit would be the council and government wouldn't waste our money
/and/ pat themselves on the back for being the Friend Of The Cyclist.
Grrrr...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
 
Brimstone wrote:
> Nick Finnigan wrote:
>
>>Al C-F wrote:
>>
>>>The driving competency test is mandatory. Not so for cyclists.

>>
>> The driving competency test is not mandatory.

>
>
> Do you ever have anything useful to add, or do you only contradict?


I can think of nothing useful to add to the previous post, and no
point in wasting people's bandwidth. I add useful information where
sensible.
 
Nick Finnigan wrote:
> Brimstone wrote:
>> Nick Finnigan wrote:
>>
>>> Al C-F wrote:
>>>
>>>> The driving competency test is mandatory. Not so for cyclists.
>>>
>>> The driving competency test is not mandatory.

>>
>>
>> Do you ever have anything useful to add, or do you only contradict?

>
> I can think of nothing useful to add to the previous post, and no
> point in wasting people's bandwidth. I add useful information where
> sensible.


Isn't flat contradiction also a waste of bandwidth? Attempting to suggest
that "the driving competency test is not mandatory" serves no useful purpose
since, except for a few extraordinary situations, it is a compulsory
requirement of holding a full UK friving licence.

A useful addition, possibly, might have been to tell us when and under what
circumstances your assertion applied.

If you want to be a successful troll you really do need to develop your
skills.
 
Nick Finnigan wrote:
> Brimstone wrote:
> [snip]
>>
>> Isn't flat contradiction also a waste of bandwidth?

>
> No.


Why not?


>> A useful addition, possibly, might have been to tell us when and
>> under what circumstances your assertion applied.

>
> That would not have been useful.


Why not?
 
Brimstone wrote:
[snip]
>
> Isn't flat contradiction also a waste of bandwidth?


No.

> A useful addition, possibly, might have been to tell us when and under what
> circumstances your assertion applied.


That would not have been useful.
 
Ian wrote:
>
> I can't find a report on the Court case at the moment, but it related to
> this incident http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/nottinghamshire/4262766.stm
> . I note that another pedestrian was killed by a cyclist only just over a
> week ago http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/6168129.stm in Devon.


Neither of those links says that the cyclist was riding on the
pavement. The pedestrians might have stepped out into the road without
looking. Quite likely in fact if the cyclist was going at a speed
significant enough to kill, it is unusual for a cyclist to be able to
achieve a high enough speed on a pavement.
 
p.k. wrote:
> TripleS wrote:
> > Further observation: A fair number of cycle lanes appear to be a
> > complete waste of time and money, as they are often applied in such a
> > piecemeal fashion. In many cases I can see little benefit from them -
> > for anybody, apart from certain groups of road safety 'experts' -
> > creating jobs for the boys, and being seen to be doing something, etc.

>
>
> Part of the problem is the "target culture" & ring-fenced spending.
>
> Councils are judged by number of cycle route miles and are have money that
> can only be spent on cycling facilities - both of which tend toward
> installing faculties for the sake of installing rather than with any real
> thought as to function and purpose.
>
> Lots of cycle lanes here in Merton are simply too narrow to be useful, but
> cannot be wider because of limited road width. In would be safer not to have
> the lane at all!
>
> pk


Some of the cycle lanes are useful to allow cyclists an empty path to
overtake stationary vehicles at times when the road is congested.
However when that particular road is free-flowing, it might be
dangerous for a cyclist to ride in it.

Note that if you are in a car overtaking a cyclist in such a lane, you
must still give him as much room as you would if the lane were not
there. The fact that you are to the right of the white line does not
mean you are necessarily giving the cyclist enough room. That
unfortunately is not understood by too many motorists which can be the
problem with the line being there.
 
In article <[email protected]>, Art says...

>
> And this from an asshole who sits for hours (if not days) on end in
> the cab of a lorry!
>

At least I'll unload 20 tonnes by hand a few times a week.


--
Conor

"You're not married,you haven't got a girlfriend and you've never seen
Star Trek? Good Lord!" - Patrick Stewart
 
In article <[email protected]>, Art says...

> See other post, thicko.
>

What other post, thicko?

LEARN HOW TO POST PROPERLY.


--
Conor

"You're not married,you haven't got a girlfriend and you've never seen
Star Trek? Good Lord!" - Patrick Stewart
 
In article <[email protected]>, Art says...
> On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 18:05:16 -0000, Conor <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <[email protected]>, Art says...
> >
> >>
> >> When was the last time a pedestrian was arrested/fined/imprisoned for
> >> violating the Highway Code?
> >>

> >Clue: THIS IS A UNITED KINGDOM NEWSGROUP. The clue is in the name.

>
> Not a Ukrainian newsgroup?
>
>

Clue:

Country abbreviation of United Kingdom is UK
Country abbreviation for Ukraine is UA.

--
Conor

"You're not married,you haven't got a girlfriend and you've never seen
Star Trek? Good Lord!" - Patrick Stewart
 
Brimstone wrote:
> TripleS wrote:
>> Conor wrote:
>>> In article <[email protected]>, TripleS says...
>>>
>>>> Pardon my ignorance, but what is meant by Primary position? Does it
>>>> mean cycling down the middle of a lane in order prevent (or at least
>>>> discourage) a driver from overtaking you?
>>> Pretty much. It's supposed to be slightly to the right as I recall
>>> on a motorbike.
>>>

>> Thanks for that.
>>
>> I've noticed motorcyclists often position themselves just to the left
>> of the centre-line as standard procedure on single carriageway roads,
>> even when it appears to offer no advantage to them. This can be a
>> nuisance if you're looking to overtake them* and it can give the
>> impression that they're trying to be obstructive, though they may not
>> be.
>> * Yes OK, I do appreciate that normally it's the bikers who are doing
>> the overtaking!

>
> If you you look at the position of the driver, rather than the vehicle, they
> should be occupying the same relative position on the road as a car or van
> driver.
>
>


I'm not sure that I see the reasoning there. Whether we're driving cars
or riding motorbikes I think keeping tucked in to the left as far as
reasonably possible is the thing to do, though of course we may decide
to depart from this from time to time for improving vision etc.

There is also the point that none of us should be expected to drive/ride
so close to the edge that we fall foul of all the rough stuff and debris
that tends to accumulate there.

Having said all that, I still feel the bikers take up more space near
the centre of the road than seems appropriate.

Best wishes all,
Dave.
 
TripleS wrote:

> Pardon my ignorance, but what is meant by Primary position? Does it
> mean cycling down the middle of a lane in order prevent (or at least
> discourage) a driver from overtaking you?


That's exactly it. Many drivers forget that when they pass a cyclist,
they are *overtaking*, and often do so in situations where they would
never dream of overtaking a motor vehicle, even if it was travelling
at cycle speed. Cyclists don't help themselves by riding in the
gutter, and maximising the opportunity for motorists to overtake, even
where it is neither safe or sensible to do so.

By taking the primary position, or "claiming the lane", cyclists
discourage following motorists from overtaking at inappropriate points
- such as on the approach to a junction or through a narrow section.
Cyclists should not maintain the primary position for any longer than
they need to, in order to negotiate the hazard safely.

> If this is the case presumably the thinking is that the cyclist will
> be able to dominate the proceedings and protect his own safety (though
> I have my doubts about that) and drivers will have to follow until he
> has negotiated the hazard and got out of their way.


Absolutely! And it does work. You have to be confident as a cyclist -
or at least do a good job of looking confident! Clear arm signals,
moving quickly into position, even down to posture and body language.
Knowing *when* to take up the position is important, and a mirror is
very useful here, as you can see gaps approaching without the need to
continually look over your shoulder.

Another key aspect is to ride as quickly as you comfortably can while
in the primary position. This will reduce any delay to following
motorists, and will make you look more a part of the traffic.

> In theory I can see some merit in that, but at the same time it also
> sounds like a recipe for cyclists to be bloodyminded and promote added
> conflict with drivers - so it's not totally good news.


No, it reduces conflict with drivers. Every time a driver overtakes a
cyclist at an inappropriate point, their paths are in conflict. No
overtaking = no conflict! (Yes, I realise that's not what you meant)

An assertive, confident and quick cyclist won't slow down motorists
appreciably. It is exceedingly rare for a driver to deliberately try
to hit/harm a cyclist for riding assertively - it is common for
drivers to carelessly collide with a cyclist who tempted them to pass
at an inappropriate or unsafe moment.

--
Stevie D
\\\\\ ///// Bringing dating agencies to the
\\\\\\\__X__/////// common hedgehog since 2001 - "HedgeHugs"
___\\\\\\\'/ \'///////_____________________________________________
 
JNugent wrote:

> Exactly the same set of principles are in play when a temporarily-
> stopped (or slow-moving) vehicle is positioned so as to dissuade a
> gutter-cyclist from overtaking on the nearside when approaching a
> junction.


In some rare circumstances, yes. There are a very few occasions when a
car driver sat in a very slow-moving queue can see a hazard that a
cyclist - who will have a much better view of surrounding traffic,
being higher up and with ears open to the sounds - can't.

On narrower roads, I agree that drivers should keep right over to the
left when queueing - this makes best use of the roadspace, and allows
cyclists to pass safely on the right. But on wider roads, where there
is room to allow space both for cyclists to pass on the left and
oncoming traffic to pass comfortably on the right, it will often be
more appropriate to allow cyclists to pass on the left - and
especially so if there is a marked cycle lane.

--
Stevie D
\\\\\ ///// Bringing dating agencies to the
\\\\\\\__X__/////// common hedgehog since 2001 - "HedgeHugs"
___\\\\\\\'/ \'///////_____________________________________________
 
Al C-F wrote:

> Observation: the layout of some cycle lanes approaching and around
> roundabouts may cause confusion as to the correct positioning of
> cyclists.


Oh gods, yes. Any highway engineer that puts a cycle lane on the
approach to a roundabout needs to be sacked, and probably shot.

Too many cyclists sacrifice their own safety by riding in the gutter
as it is, without being encouraged to do so by stupid and dangerous
road markings.

There's a roundabout near where I work that has cycle lanes on the
approach, and going round the roundabout. (Heworth, in York, for
anyone who is interested).
http://local.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=53.967745~-1.06323&style=a&lvl=19&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000
Cyclists who follow the green paint don't tend to fare all that well.
I take the same line on a bike as I do in a car and have never had any
hint of a problem.

--
Stevie D
\\\\\ ///// Bringing dating agencies to the
\\\\\\\__X__/////// common hedgehog since 2001 - "HedgeHugs"
___\\\\\\\'/ \'///////_____________________________________________
 
On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 10:09:07 +0000, Paul Boyd
<usenet.dont.work@plusnet> wrote:

>Art said the following on 20/12/2006 07:09:
>
>> That's probably because they don't just do it after amber. They do it
>> any time.

>
>You're still talking about car drivers, right?


Obviously not.
 
On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 13:43:33 -0000, Conor <[email protected]>
wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Art says...
>
>>
>> And this from an asshole who sits for hours (if not days) on end in
>> the cab of a lorry!
>>

>At least I'll unload 20 tonnes by hand a few times a week.


We have machines for that kind of monkey work, thicko.
Think automation!
 
On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 13:44:43 -0000, Conor <[email protected]>
wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>, Art says...
>> On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 18:05:16 -0000, Conor <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >In article <[email protected]>, Art says...
>> >
>> >>
>> >> When was the last time a pedestrian was arrested/fined/imprisoned for
>> >> violating the Highway Code?
>> >>
>> >Clue: THIS IS A UNITED KINGDOM NEWSGROUP. The clue is in the name.

>>
>> Not a Ukrainian newsgroup?
>>
>>

>Clue:
>
>Country abbreviation of United Kingdom is UK
>Country abbreviation for Ukraine is UA.


No ****!