Re: Cyclist rant: back in black

[Tony Raven]

Alan Braggins wrote:
>
> Google says you are the only person ever to use "ANPR" and "RLSV"
> in the same web page or Usenet post,

Congratulations. A veritable Googlewack.

Tony

 

[Steve Walker]

In message <[email protected]>, Richard
<[email protected]> writes
>Steve Walker wrote:

>>>> And therefore, to reduce emissions, speed should be restricted by
>>>>law? In which other areas of life would you introduce such
>>>>sanctions?
>>>
>>>
>>> Quite a lot of other areas already have similar restrictions. The
>>>Clean Air Act. Various factory emissions regulations.
>> But not many where the legislation controls quantitatively the
>>extent to which a private citizen does something which is legal
>>qualitatively. There isn't a house temperature limit, or an hours of
>>television viewed limit. There isn't even a 20p/kg CO2 surcharge on
>>the carbon dioxide emitted by the use of fossil fuels to provide
>>domestic power; the entire price paid by the user (per kg CO2) is
>>less than the duty (per kg CO2) on petrol.
>
>You seem to be trying to argue that because one particular source of
>pollution isn't regulated, none of them should be (or, alternatively,
>either none of them should be or all of them should be).

That would not seem unreasonable to me.

>There have been many, and still are some similar inequities in the
>statute books;

Grounds for creating more?

--
Steve Walker

 

[Brendan Halpin]

"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> writes:

> Total emissions per passenger mile for a bicycle is approximately
> zero, by the way.

Arguably negative, as we're filtering the air...

Brendan
--
Brendan Halpin, Department of Sociology, University of Limerick, Ireland
Tel: w +353-61-213147 f +353-61-202569 h +353-61-338562; Room F2-025 x 3147
mailto:[email protected] http://www.ul.ie/sociology/brendan.halpin.html

 

[Steve Walker]

In message <[email protected]>, "Just zis Guy,
you know?" <[email protected]> writes
>On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:42:46 +0000, Steve Walker
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>Yes, holding buses up must significantly increase the volume of
>>particulates they pump out...
>
>Quite possibly, a lot of the fuel burned by any motor vehicle in
>traffic is due to starting from rest.

>Total emissions per passenger mile for a bicycle is approximately
>zero, by the way.

Unless it's holding a bus up in a shared use bus lane )

--
Steve Walker

 

[Dave Larrington]

Steve Walker wrote:
> In message <[email protected]>, "Just zis
> Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> writes
>> On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 13:42:46 +0000, Steve Walker
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, holding buses up must significantly increase the volume of
>>> particulates they pump out...
>>
>> Quite possibly, a lot of the fuel burned by any motor vehicle in
>> traffic is due to starting from rest.
>
>> Total emissions per passenger mile for a bicycle is approximately
>> zero, by the way.
>
> Unless it's holding a bus up in a shared use bus lane )

If my experience is in any way typical, it's more likely to be the other way
round...

--

Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
World Domination?
Just find a world that's into that kind of thing, then chain to the
floor and walk up and down on it in high heels. (Mr. Sunshine)

 

[Helen Deborah Vecht]

[email protected]yped



> And apply the "carbon tax" to the emissions from cyclists.

> Who produce a surprising amount of CO2 as a result of their hobby / means of
> transport compared to a car driver + car.



Bollox! A cyclist can do 20 miles per Mars bar. A Mars bar weighs about
60g and will produce about 90g CO2 when metabolised.

A motorist will need 3 pints of petrol to travel 20 miles and produce
about/ at least 20 times as much CO2.

--
Helen D. Vecht: [email protected]
Edgware.

 

[Alan Braggins]

In article <[email protected]>, Tony Raven wrote:
>Alan Braggins wrote:
>>
>> Google says you are the only person ever to use "ANPR" and "RLSV"
>> in the same web page or Usenet post,
>
>Congratulations. A veritable Googlewack.

No, the Googlewhack rules say they have to use words in the dictionary
Google links to, so it comes up with "definition" links. If RLSV did
that, I wouldn't have to ask him what it meant. (Well, assuming the
definition wasn't raspberry leaf spot virus or something equally
irrelevent.)

 

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 15:07:11 +0000, Steve Walker
<[email protected]> wrote:


>>Total emissions per passenger mile for a bicycle is approximately
>>zero, by the way.

>Unless it's holding a bus up in a shared use bus lane )

They have to catch me first

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

 

[Tony Raven]

Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:
>
> Bollox! A cyclist can do 20 miles per Mars bar. A Mars bar weighs about
> 60g and will produce about 90g CO2 when metabolised.
>
> A motorist will need 3 pints of petrol to travel 20 miles and produce
> about/ at least 20 times as much CO2.
>

I did some calculations for a cyclist based on published measurements
for cyclists and published data for cars and per mile the cyclist does a
suprisingly large percentage - about 20% - of the small car CO2. The
difference is that the car CO2 comes from carbon locked up in carbon
sinks whereas the cyclist CO2 comes from sources that were recently
extracted from the atmosphere (into plants and animals which are then
consumed)

Tony

 

[[email protected]]

Apparently on date Fri, 11 Mar 2005 09:38:28 +0000, "Just zis Guy, you know?"
<[email protected]> said:

>On 10 Mar 2005 21:21:34 GMT, Adrian <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>"Kids who might not be in class" is bollocks, because no kid that's skiving
>>or outside school hours wants to be anywhere near a school.
>
>There is, however, a surprising amount of foot traffic during school
>hours at many schools. To be honest I think the urban limit should be
>25mph or less anyway, and 15mph outside schools at key times.

Set to 20 mph and stringently enforced at 25, I reckon.

Now think about banning parking / waiting by the side of a road in residential
areas, except in an emergency.

 

[Just zis Guy, you know?]

On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 16:58:34 +0000, Tony Raven <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I did some calculations for a cyclist based on published measurements
>for cyclists and published data for cars and per mile the cyclist does a
>suprisingly large percentage - about 20% - of the small car CO2. The
>difference is that the car CO2 comes from carbon locked up in carbon
>sinks whereas the cyclist CO2 comes from sources that were recently
>extracted from the atmosphere (into plants and animals which are then
>consumed)

Another difference is that the cyclist does not have a catalytic
converter made of precious metals extracted by a hideously inefficient
and dirty process in Abroad (aka pollution exporting), requires much
less fuel so less fuel transport pollution is generated, emits /only/
CO2, not oxides of nitrogen, benzene, polycyclic aromatics and so on -
and the cyclist was probably planning on breathing anyway so at least
some of that CO2 is not actually excess CO2.

Offset against that is the resources required to build the bike. But
if these go by the tonne that's about 1/50 of the resources required
to build the car, and probably with a longer service life.

All good knockabout stuff

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at CHS, Puget Sound

 

[Tony Raven]

Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:

>
> Another difference is that the cyclist does not have a catalytic
> converter made of precious metals extracted by a hideously inefficient
> and dirty process in Abroad (aka pollution exporting), requires much
> less fuel so less fuel transport pollution is generated, emits /only/
> CO2, not oxides of nitrogen, benzene, polycyclic aromatics and so on -
> and the cyclist was probably planning on breathing anyway so at least
> some of that CO2 is not actually excess CO2.
>

I think I allowed for base level respiration in the calculation. And I
do ride an aluminium bike made by a hideously power hungry process
overseas. It would be interesting to know how much fuel is consummed
in growing and transporting the food the cyclist is consuming in their
journey. And as for the other pollutants - have you smelt my breath?

Tony ;-)

 

[David Hansen]

On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 16:58:34 +0000 someone who may be Tony Raven
<[email protected]> wrote this:-

>I did some calculations for a cyclist based on published measurements
>for cyclists and published data for cars and per mile the cyclist does a
>suprisingly large percentage - about 20% - of the small car CO2.

1) Does the car have a driver?

2) If the answer to 1) is yes, does the driver emit carbon dioxide?

3) If the answer to 2) is yes, how does it compare to that emitted
by the cyclist?

I accept that the amount of carbon dioxide emitted by a cyclist will
vary depending on how hard they are working, but the same will be
true of a car engine.

How do the calculations look per trip? Cars tend to encourage longer
trips.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

 

[Tony Raven]

David Hansen wrote:

>
> 1) Does the car have a driver?

Yes

>
> 2) If the answer to 1) is yes, does the driver emit carbon dioxide?

Not relevant assuming to first order that pushing the accelerator pedal
does not increase the CO2 output over base level. Or are you suggesting
they only breathe when driving? Similarly the baseline CO2 was
subtracted off the cyclist figure so it was only the incremental CO2
from the effort i.e. cyclist extra effort vs car engine.

>
> I accept that the amount of carbon dioxide emitted by a cyclist will
> vary depending on how hard they are working, but the same will be
> true of a car engine.
>

It was based on an average exertion cycle journey (c15mph)and the
average emissions per mile of a typical small car

> How do the calculations look per trip? Cars tend to encourage longer
> trips.
>
>

About a factor 2 better. The average car trip is twice the average
cycle trip IIRC.

Tony

 

[Steve Walker]

In message <[email protected]>, Dave Larrington
<[email protected]> writes
>Steve Walker wrote:

>>> Total emissions per passenger mile for a bicycle is approximately
>>> zero, by the way.
>>
>> Unless it's holding a bus up in a shared use bus lane )
>
>If my experience is in any way typical, it's more likely to be the other way
>round...

:O)

--
Steve Walker

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>, Alan Braggins
('[email protected]') wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>, Adrian
> wrote:
>>
>>Yes, which is why ANPR uses RLSV technology to actually catch 'em
>
> Google says you are the only person ever to use "ANPR" and "RLSV"
> in the same web page or Usenet post, and the first few pages on
> automatic number plate recognition all mention using cameras but not
> anything that RLSV would be an obvious acronym or typo for.
>
> Assuming you aren't talking about Raspberry Leaf Spot Virus, what are
> you talking about?

Robert Louis Stephenson's Virginity?

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Semper in faecibus sumus, sole profundum variat.

 

[Simon Brooke]

in message <[email protected]>,
[email protected] ('[email protected]') wrote:

> Apparently on date Fri, 11 Mar 2005 09:38:28 +0000, "Just zis Guy, you
> know?" <[email protected]> said:
>
>>On 10 Mar 2005 21:21:34 GMT, Adrian <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Kids who might not be in class" is bollocks, because no kid that's
>>>skiving or outside school hours wants to be anywhere near a school.
>>
>>There is, however, a surprising amount of foot traffic during school
>>hours at many schools. To be honest I think the urban limit should be
>>25mph or less anyway, and 15mph outside schools at key times.
>
> Set to 20 mph and stringently enforced at 25, I reckon.

Whatever it's set to, it should be stringently enforced at. This idea
that 'it's OK to be a little bit over the limit' is the root of the
whole speeding problem. Caught speeding - .000000001% over the limit -
car confiscated, crushed, license revoked permanently. No need for
fines or prison (unless driving without a license). That would cure
speeding in six months.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
.::;===r==\
/ /___||___\____
//==\- ||- | /__\( MS Windows IS an operating environment.
//____\__||___|_// \|: C++ IS an object oriented programming language.
\__/ ~~~~~~~~~ \__/ Citroen 2cv6 IS a four door family saloon.

 

[JLB]

Adrian wrote:
> Not Responding ([email protected]) gurgled happily, sounding much like
> they were saying :
>
>
>>>I wonder if you've ever tried walking a mile or two (perhaps to a
>>>pub, so there's an incentive to not take a car) along an unlit
>>>country road (no pavement) in the dark with significant numbers of
>>>cars using it at the same time. Would you even consider doing that?
>>>How many other people would?
>
>
>>Yeah, that describes the road outside my house. The road between my
>>house, the school, the shops and everything else. Last time I walked
>>it someone hit me with a wing mirror; despite the bang, they didn't
>>even stop or slow down.
>
>
> What's the speed limit, and what speed were they doing?
>
> Most of the unlit country lanes round here are 60 limits.

You seem impervious to any clues passed your way. Do you recall a
publication called "The Highway Code"? It might have been waved under
your nose some years ago. It explains in simple, patient language with
copious pictures, designed by experts for easy consumption by anyone who
still has detectable brain function, several curious and little-known
facts, including that a speed limit is an upper limit. When driving you
are required to moderate your speed as appropriate to the circumstances.
>
> FWIW, I grew up on the edge of a peak district village, and now live on the
> edge of countryside in Herts, so - yes - I have walked down a few lanes in
> my time. And I'm alive.

And your point is? Would it astound you to discover that despite my
country road walking experience, I too am alive. Well, that's all right
then.

[snip]

--
Joe * If I cannot be free I'll be cheap

 

[David Hansen]

On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 17:48:52 +0000 someone who may be Tony Raven
<[email protected]> wrote this:-

>> I accept that the amount of carbon dioxide emitted by a cyclist will
>> vary depending on how hard they are working, but the same will be
>> true of a car engine.
>
>It was based on an average exertion cycle journey (c15mph)and the
>average emissions per mile of a typical small car

At what speed are the car emissions measured?

I mention this because of an infamous report that is often misquoted
by the road lobby.

A train between London and Edinburgh, at typical occupancy, was
compared with a car making the same journey, at maximum occupancy
and efficient speed. The average train takes say 4.5 hours for the
trip, at speeds of up to 125mph. This was compared with a car
travelling at a constant 57mph, which would be 7 hours assuming it
is possible to maintain this speed constantly.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.

 

[David Hansen]

On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 19:47:45 +0000 someone who may be JLB
<[email protected]> wrote this:-

>Do you recall a
>publication called "The Highway Code"? It might have been waved under
>your nose some years ago. It explains in simple, patient language with
>copious pictures, designed by experts for easy consumption by anyone who
>still has detectable brain function, several curious and little-known
>facts, including that a speed limit is an upper limit.

Indeed. They have for several years made it available on this funny
new Interweb thingy.

http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/09.shtml#104 refers

=====================================================================

The speed limit is the absolute maximum and does not mean it is safe
to drive at that speed irrespective of conditions. Driving at speeds
too fast for the road and traffic conditions can be dangerous. You
should always reduce your speed when

the road layout or condition presents hazards, such as bends

sharing the road with pedestrians and cyclists, particularly
children, and motorcyclists

weather conditions make it safer to do so

driving at night as it is harder to see other road users.

=====================================================================




--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.