Re: Harbour Bridge Ride - Critical Mass



cfsmtb

New Member
Apr 11, 2003
4,963
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Zebee Johnstone said:
Really? That implies that CM is doing the job they are not. Please
explain cleary how that is so, what actual achievements they have
gained, with checkable details.

Explain also what they are currently achieving, again with details.

You're in Sydney, you are subscribed to the MASS-BUG list, why not ask the locals about their POV? Call Alex Unwin at BNSW, ask him what he thinks, as Kate has only just taken up the position of BNSW Head of Advocacy. There's plenty of people to ask in your hometown with detailed local knowledge.
 
A

Aeek

Guest
On 25 Nov 2006 08:23:09 GMT, Zebee Johnstone <[email protected]> wrote:

>If the people who do CM really want cyclists to be seen as normal
>traffic they have to behave as it.
>
>Clothing from lycra to suits, gear from backpacks to briefcases, and
>riding solo or in small groups, coping if split by lights or traffic,
>expecting no special treatment, obeying rules and being normal traffic.
>They do that at least once a week, every week.


The above quoting gives a completely different empasis than Bear's,
which gave me a "normal clothing" spin (not down to Bear).
Glad I went back to the source!

Small groups? Tricky. Any number of commuters can be riding in
proximity without being together. That's how traffic works.

Recognition of critical differences in the road rules, just like
motorbikes and heavy vehicles, is not special treatment.

Onroad bike lanes and even bike boxes are traffic management options
that benefit ALL traffic, complaints to the contrary.
 
R

Resound

Guest
"Big Bear" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Duncan wrote:
>
>> My issue with CM is that they get out there and **** people off...
>> deliberately. All that does is prompt articles like that linked, and
>> create a more hostile road environment for cyclists who just want to
>> get out there and get somewhere in traffic.

>
> lol, children, the hostile road environment was there before CM.
>


Uh huh, then why is traffic noticeably more hostile after CM, expecially
when it inspires bitchy op ed pieces like the one linked to? Most of the
time I don't get grief in traffic.
 
R

Resound

Guest
"Big Bear" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> Zebee Johnstone wrote:
>
>> In that I doubt they'd deliberately attack.

>
> Obviously you don't get out much. Keep ridding, it will happen.
>
>> Certainly when I talk to non-riders, the first thing they say is "red
>> light runners". Few mention CM, but the few who have are consistently
>> contemptuous.

>
> lol, do they actually ride a bicycle, or just have one hanging on the wall
> in the garage?


Monday-Friday, to and from work. Like I said before, I don't get grief,
probably because I don't go looking for it.
 
Z

Zebee Johnstone

Guest
In aus.bicycle on Sat, 25 Nov 2006 22:51:16 +1100
cfsmtb <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Zebee Johnstone Wrote:
>>
>> Really? That implies that CM is doing the job they are not. Please
>> explain cleary how that is so, what actual achievements they have
>> gained, with checkable details.
>>
>> Explain also what they are currently achieving, again with details.

>
> You're in Sydney, you are subscribed to the MASS-BUG list, why not ask
> the locals about their POV? Call Alex Unwin at BNSW, ask him what he
> thinks, as Kate has only just taken up the position of BNSW Head of
> Advocacy. There's plenty of people to ask in your hometown with
> detailed local knowledge.



You made the claim, back it up.

You made the claim that CM is doing what the others aren't, back it
up.

Zebee
 
Z

Zebee Johnstone

Guest
In aus.bicycle on Sat, 25 Nov 2006 22:06:58 +1100
Big Bear <[email protected]> wrote:
> Zebee Johnstone wrote:
>
>> In that I doubt they'd deliberately attack.

>
> Obviously you don't get out much. Keep ridding, it will happen.


Really? I admit I haven't ridden a bicycle as much as I have a
motorcycle, probably only for 4 years in Adelaide, 2 years in Sydney a
while back and now only a few months. Daily commuting. How long do I
have to wait?

Or could it possibly be that cyclists who are sensible don't have the
problem?

>
>> Certainly when I talk to non-riders, the first thing they say is "red
>> light runners". Few mention CM, but the few who have are consistently
>> contemptuous.

>
> lol, do they actually ride a bicycle, or just have one hanging on the
> wall in the garage?


Have trouble reading do you? What is it about the word "non-riders"
that makes you think they have a bicycle? In the spirit of
communication I'll define it for you: people who don't ride bicycles.

Zebee
 
Z

Zebee Johnstone

Guest
In aus.bicycle on Sun, 26 Nov 2006 01:28:56 +1100
Resound <[email protected]> wrote:
> Monday-Friday, to and from work. Like I said before, I don't get grief,
> probably because I don't go looking for it.


Same attitude I have whether it's powered or unpowered two wheels.

I find it interesting that I can ride the same roads as other two
wheelers at the same times of day, and their stories are full of near
misses and agression, and mine are "lovely ride".

Zebee
 
Z

Zebee Johnstone

Guest
In aus.bicycle on Sat, 25 Nov 2006 23:15:12 +1100
Aeek <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> The above quoting gives a completely different empasis than Bear's,
> which gave me a "normal clothing" spin (not down to Bear).
> Glad I went back to the source!
>


Cyclists wear all sorts of clothes. That's something that is
important!

On my commute I see everything from suits to full team kit. Mostly
people in lycra or normal shorts and t-shirts though. A few bods in
jeans.

I think the CM on Friday was a special event so some treated it as
such. I suspect it wasn't a good idea if you want to be seen as
normal traffic, but I don't have any way to know what the non-riders
thought specifically of that.

The anti-lycra thing is weird, I can't work out if it's jsut a
convenient way to demonise the other, some variety of homophobia, or a
dislike of the flouters of convention which says that something
looking like that is really underwear. All three probably. Find the
thing that is a known marker and also unconventional and as it has
bonus points about body image it makes a really good handle for
denigrating a group.

I wear a pair of old cargo shorts, or some heavyweight ribbed
leggings. Being female means I can wear the leggings of course, men
wearing such things get the homophobia bit above.


> Small groups? Tricky. Any number of commuters can be riding in
> proximity without being together. That's how traffic works.


Well yes. That's the *point* isn't it? Get enough bikes into an area
that they become a "critical mass" and are the traffic. Not to say
"we are special" but to say "we are normal".

As far as I'm aware, that's not what they do, and it's definitely not
what they did on Friday.

>
> Recognition of critical differences in the road rules, just like
> motorbikes and heavy vehicles, is not special treatment.


True. But having a police escort is. Else where's mine?

I think recognising that not everything's a car is important, and it
is slowly happening. The NSW state government is dragging the chain,
but councils are doing more and more.

It isn't clear to me what an group gathered together for the purpose
of blocking traffic does for that though.

It is clear to me that CM doesn't win friends except amongst other
cyclists. Which wouldn't be a problem if it wasn't gaining enemies
amongst non-cyclists.


>
> Onroad bike lanes and even bike boxes are traffic management options
> that benefit ALL traffic, complaints to the contrary.


I'm finding a lot of people have a zero sum game
approach to the road, if that lot benefit I must be losing somehow.
This definitely applies to anything seen as needing funding.

And of course lots of people are selfish, surprise surprise! They
don't give a damn about other people's safety or convenience,
only their own. Which is true of as many cyclists as it is of car
drivers I suspect.

And of motorcyclists, I copped a lot of flack including the good old
"They all run red lights so screw them" for saying that bike boxes are
a bicycle safety feature so why should motorcycles get to use them as a
convenience. I did point out that being against road safety for a class
of user because some of that class broke a road law without it seeming
to lead to a higher crash rate was a bad precedent for motorcyclists
but it didn't seem to sink in....

It's a very human thing, to see the other as either unimportant or
actively bad. So someone who rides a bicycle and a motorcycle and
drives a car sees fewer as other than someone who does 2 of the 3 or 1
of the 3. But then I dont skateboard or rollerblade.

Zebee
 
D

Duncan

Guest
Big Bear wrote:
> Meanwhile, the police heirachy have become corrupt
> and inept.


be careful... the tinfoil hat is starting to poke out.
 
B

Big Bear

Guest
Resound wrote:

> Uh huh, then why is traffic noticeably more hostile after CM, expecially
> when it inspires bitchy op ed pieces like the one linked to? Most of the
> time I don't get grief in traffic.


It is the same agro sht heads before and after CM here.

Lets face it, CM just allows idiot motorists a focus that doesn't make
it clear to them that they are the real problem.

normal day; "I am really stuck in this massive traffic jam because lots
of other fat arses like myself are too lazy to use public transport, or
ride a bicyle"

CM days allows them tro blames cyclists.

Personally the letter to write in response to moron articles is "Well,
if CM is only once a month, how do you explain the traffic jams on all
the other days?"
 
B

Big Bear

Guest
Zebee Johnstone wrote:
In the spirit of
> communication I'll define it for you: people who don't ride bicycles.


ride =/= own.
 
B

Big Bear

Guest
Duncan wrote:
> Big Bear wrote:
>
>>Meanwhile, the police heirachy have become corrupt
>>and inept.

>
>
> be careful... the tinfoil hat is starting to poke out.


looking in the mirror are we?
when was the last time you had a policeperson talk to someone who
harrassed you? Do you think the big constable plod will send someone
around to talk to that journo about "inciting violence". If so, please
hold your breath until they do.
>
 
E

Euan

Guest
cfsmtb wrote:
> persia Wrote:
>> CM is the Taliban of cycling: conservative, intolerant of criticism,
>> absolutely convinced of the rightness of their approach, despite all
>> evidence to the contrary.

>
> What a bizarre remark, care to expand upon that on next Wednesday
> evening? If CM is such a waste of time, why do you even bother to
> socialise with numerous Melbourne bicycle folk, who have, shock,
> horror, been to a CM or two, or even post your remarks to the CM-Melb
> yahoogroup for the last 3-4 years? Pot. Kettle. Black.


I see, so if you barrack for Fitzroy and I barrack for the Bombers we
can't talk to each other about footy? That's essentially what you're
saying.

I'm on the CM-Melb group, I even went on a ride. It wasn't for me, I
don't think it achieves anything but there are a lot of good people in
the CM with a lot of good knowledge. I'm not about to cut myself off
from those people just because they attend an event I don't. That's
just stupid.

> One good aspect about CM in Melbourne context that it has brough
> together a whole diverse group of cyclists who paths would of *never*
> socialised with each other. Roadies, BUG's, commuters, recreational
> riders, tourers etc etc etc. BV aren't remotely interested in bringing
> stakeholders together, unless there's money in it.


We need to promote PubBUG more, mind you that would leave out the
teetotallers.

> If CM has no reason to exist, then please explain to us the reason of
> this puzzling paradox for the last 11 years? Why did a estimated 600
> cyclists ride through Melbourne last evening?


Derryn exaggerating again? He had the number pegged at 700.
--
Cheers
Euan
 
D

DaveB

Guest
Duncan wrote:
> Big Bear wrote:
>> Meanwhile, the police heirachy have become corrupt
>> and inept.

>
> be careful... the tinfoil hat is starting to poke out.
>


Yep that one statement summed up Big Bear's position oh so clearly.
The n+1 rule also applies to the killfile.

DaveB
 

cfsmtb

New Member
Apr 11, 2003
4,963
0
0
Zebee Johnstone said:
You made the claim, back it up.

You made the claim that CM is doing what the others aren't, back it
up.

Doesn't the issue just stare back at you? If everything in the bicycle world was lovely & peachy - then why do these rides continue to exist? There's a obvious disconnect between what Government and bicycle orgs are doing on behalf of cyclists - and the reality people have to face when they ride in Sydney. Some of them may even decide to to take direct action. Some of them take another step and get involved with their local communities to improve the lot of cycling.

For the record, I asked you the same question several months ago, which you haven't bothered to answer.

1 Jul 2006
http://groups.google.com.au/group/aus.bicycle/msg/f451b47721515031?dmode=source&hl=en

http://groups.google.com.au/group/aus.bicycle/msg/5fe3fd71d29f5389?dmode=source&hl=en

Also for the record, I've been informed by several folk in Sydney that have indeed spoken to you *in person* about CM, invited you to come along and make up your own mind, and also have explained to you about what CM means to them.

You have responded to them you won't attend rides, won't write to politicians. It's not whether you agree with CM or not, you are simply cherrypicking what you prefer to listen to, or even bother to read.

That indeed speaks volumes - especially when people have contacted you *in person*, not the internet, and you still keep parrotting this guff about "I don't know what CM is".
 

cfsmtb

New Member
Apr 11, 2003
4,963
0
0
Euan said:
I see, so if you barrack for Fitzroy and I barrack for the Bombers we
can't talk to each other about footy? That's essentially what you're
saying.

In context, I thought "persias" remark was bizarre and some what disappointing, since recently he was extending a peace, love and mung beans attitude towards several Melb bike folk, but now he's gone all sectarian again.

BTW - being an old Roys fans you've touched a raw nerve here. For those who came in late, Fitzroy died a death of a thousand cuts back in 1996 & was merged with Brisbane. I really haven't gotten over it & haven't followed footy since. {sob}.

{Wipes away the tears, gets vaguely back on topic}

You're right about the PubBUG thing, but I just don't have the time to promote the bloody thing more effectively. Although teetotallers could satisfy their thirst with lemon, lime & bitters .... or fizzy red cordial. If you read the yahoogroup homepage, there is a "JavaBUG" offshoot but I have absolutely no idea how active that faction is at the moment.

Euan said:
Derryn exaggerating again? He had the number pegged at 700.

God knows what Derryn is bollocking on about. I'm awaiting his take on exposing links btw Critical Mass, Family First and Vladimir Putin.
 

monsterman

New Member
Apr 23, 2005
564
0
0
DaveB said:
Duncan wrote:
> Big Bear wrote:
>> Meanwhile, the police heirachy have become corrupt
>> and inept.

>
> be careful... the tinfoil hat is starting to poke out.
>


Yep that one statement summed up Big Bear's position oh so clearly.
The n+1 rule also applies to the killfile.

DaveB
Absolutely. I apply the same approach to all extremist paranoid conspiracy theorists, that come across from aus.ufo
 
D

Dave Hughes

Guest
On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 22:06:58 +1100, Big Bear wrote:

> lol, do they actually ride a bicycle, or just have one hanging on the
> wall in the garage?


Do you know, I've been looking at Big Bear's posts and thinking they
really sounded like Terry C. Then I noticed the domain. <sigh>. I'm an
idiot, but at least I put my name to it.

--
Dave Hughes | [email protected]
Flagrant system error! The system is down. I dunno what you did,
moron, but you sure screwed everything up - Strongbad
 
P

persia

Guest
cfsmtb wrote:

> What a bizarre remark, care to expand upon that on next Wednesday
> evening?


No, I'll be entirely task-focussed next Thursday. Probably wouldn't
help your credibility to identify as CM with the DOI people, anyway.


>If CM is such a waste of time, why do you even bother to
> socialise with numerous Melbourne bicycle folk, who have, shock,
> horror, been to a CM or two


I socialise with lots of bike folk & I don't necessarily agree with all
of their beliefs or activities. That goes for Barry H and it goes for
you, too.

, or even post your remarks to the CM-Melb
> yahoogroup for the last 3-4 years?


I generally answer stuff there about Melbourne, or (very occasionally)
argue against the more provcative CM stuff. Seems pretty consistent to
me.
>
> One good aspect about CM in Melbourne context that it has brough
> together a whole diverse group of cyclists who paths would of *never*
> socialised with each other.


I'm prepared to accept that. I don't believe, however, that it goes
anywhere near counterbalancing the negative outcomes, which have been
many.

BV aren't remotely interested in bringing
> stakeholders together, unless there's money in it.


That might well be a failing of BV. Again, I would suggest that that it
doesn't go anywhere near counterbalancing the positive outcomes, which
have been many.

>
> If CM has no reason to exist, then please explain to us the reason of
> this puzzling paradox for the last 11 years?


I already have: read my post again.

Why did a estimated 600
> cyclists ride through Melbourne last evening?


Activism lite.

BTW: you haven't really answered the questions posed by Zebee & echoed
by myself. I would suggest that this is because there are no answers.

Persia
 
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Big Bear

Guest
Dave Hughes wrote:
> Then I noticed the domain. <sigh>.


pipe's blocked, so this is temp {:).