Re: Helmet Poll: First Hand Experience



"Ozark Bicycle" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>



> > >
> > > Silly me, I thought we were talking about laws as applied to adults.

> >
> > Oh? Where was it mentioned that it had to apply to all ages?
> > It remains the case that you do have a MHL for motorcyclists under 21
> > (Some of whom would be considered adults in UK.)
> >

>
> Let's see: minors can't vote, can't (legally) drink, can't (legally)
> drive, can't (legally) have sex, etc. Do you think having to wear a
> helmet on a motorcycle looms large on their horizon? Or do you think
> that, unlike the dopey gang of UK AHZs, they might have bigger fish to
> fry?
>


Hmmm, there's that use of an insult again, instead of a fact.

When Ozark really gets wound up he starts threads accusing people of deviant
sexual behaviour.
 
"dkahn400" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Ozark Bicycle wrote:


>
> Don't you think it would be a good idea to stop making allegations
> against Carl in public, even fairly vague ones, unless or until you
> feel able to substantiate them in public?
>


No, you don't understand.

Unsubstantiated vague allegations serve his purposes perfectly.
 
Ed Pirrero wrote:
>
> That addresses fit issues, but not proper wearing issues. I have seen
> folks earing helmets and the straps dangling.
>


If you read the paper it does cover wearing issues. For example 13% had
helmets tilted back on their heads although and 1% tilted sideways.
There is no comment on strap tightness although 4% of helmets did come
off in the accident.


--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci
 
In article <5kA*[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> Quoting Espressopithecus (Java Man) <[email protected]>:
> >[email protected] says...
> >>And I've explained why that speculation is worthless for determining
> >>whether or not one should use a helmet.

> >Who said I was using it for determining whether or not one should use a
> >helmet?

>
> Well, you have _repeatedly_ said you wouldn't want to use the
> population-level stats. What else is there, absent data?


There you go again!

I HAVE said I don't think they apply to the kind of riding I do, which
is predominately TRAIL RIDING. You even went so far as to speculate
that helmets may actually provide a benefit in trail riding.

You:
"I don't think many of the large-scale studies pertain to off-road
riding, I don't think it can tell us much about on-road riding, and
while I'd oppose compulsion for off-roaders I think the benefits of foam
hats there may well be positive. "


I have also said "Population stats are useful in deciding whether helmet
use while cycling should be made compulsory for the entire population."

But why do I have to keep reminding you of what each of us has posted?
It's tiresome, and I don't see the point of discussing this with someone
who won't invest the time to follow the argument.

>
> >You apparently have the bad habits of failing to fully read the
> >development of a thread, leaping to unfounded conclusions by looking at
> >only the last post or two (as illustrated above), and accusing others of
> >making "cheap shots" when you frequently do so yourself.

>
> A cheap shot's fine when it makes a point. It's not fine when it's being
> used to gloss over the lack of an argument.
>
> >"Try to weasel away from the point with at least a modicum of subtlety,
> >I suggest."

>
> Which is fair enough; the person being replied to _was_ weaselling away
> with the "only talking about cycling" approach.
>
> >"So, given the health effects, you had a large negative effect on that
> >child's life expectancy. Well done! Perhaps you should suggest she
> >takes up smoking, too?"

>
> I had no argument to answer there; the poster had done something stupid
> and I pointed that out. Mocking the stupid's a perfectly reasonable
> activity.
>
> >"In that case you're talking total gibberish. Please try and actually
> >construct an argument, not merely some plausible-sounding rhetoric."

>
> This isn't any kind of cheap shot. Paul Murphy regularly cannot construct
> any sort of coherent argument and equally regularly resorts to
> plausible-sounding soundbites. I can't argue with what's not there.
>
> >"Why not? Are you somehow immune to head injuries at other times? That
> >must be very convenient."

>
> Making the perfectly reasonable point that talking only about
> cycling-induced head injuries is a bit silly - and becoming a deliberate
> evasion.


Perhaps you should focus your entire effort on reading and understanding
what was actually said, and leave the sarcasm aside. Really, it doesn't
help unless your interest is in belittling people with whom you
disagree. Is that what you're trying to do?

>
> >I don't mind responding to your posts if you try to keep up, but please
> >don't waste my time by failing to read before responding.

>
> Frankly it's pretty hard to respond to someone who spends all their time
> saying "I wasn't saying that". Perhaps you could state definitely what
> assertions you _are_ making.


I have. But it does no good if you won't actually read it.

And I don't find it necessary to say "I wasn't saying that" when people
misstate my position.
>
> >And please drop the pretense that you are above taking "cheap shots".

>
> Never said I was. But I will say I don't use cheap shots to avoid actually
> making a point; you won't see any equivalent to "you must not have
> anything in your brain to protect" from me.


I'll guess I'll have to settle for being thankful for small mercies.

Rick
 
David Martin wrote:
>>I guess USAians don't grow up as fast if you are a minor to age 21. In
>>the UK it is 16 (drinking & sex), 17 (driving) and 18 (voting)

>
> Technically one can drive legally at 16 under certain circumstances.


ISTR public drinking at 14 also in certain very rigid circumstances, but
that anomaly may have been removed (Perry, with a meal in a restaurant).

> That still isn't relevant to the original question which was whether Mr
> O. Bicycle admits that there is a MHL for motorcyclists in his
> jurisdiction ...


R.
 
"Ed Pirrero" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Indeed. And when you accept out-of-context quotes as the substance as
> a means to support an already-arrived-at conclusion, things sew up so
> nicely, don't they?
>
> Of course, those quotes, every single one, come from a long-ago thread.
>
> But they do prove something. With me, you can expect everything
> up-front, no BS. I am sure the same cannot be said for you. I do not
> hide my venom behind syrup and smarm, unlike you. And absolutely never
> pretend that after engaging in that behavior, that I am completely
> innocent. Unlike you.
>
> With Dammerell, if I said the sky was blue, he'd find some reason to
> snipe and say the color was actually closer to cerulean. All while
> being a perfect asshole. That's OK - it explains his popularity here
> (LOL) and his marital status. His offerings here are almost
> universally flames and snipes, so it's easy to ignore his dribblings.


On the other hand, this one could be a girl.
 
"David Damerell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:0fA*[email protected]...
> Quoting Paul Murphy <[email protected]>:
>>"David Damerell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> Quoting Paul Murphy <[email protected]>:
>>>>I've answered your question, you just dont like my answer - that's not
>>>>my
>>>>problem.
>>>No, you haven't.
>>>The question was "Who do you suppose is _not_ aware of their
>>>vulnerability
>>>when cycling?"
>>>Now, you suggested male teenagers, but actually I pointed out clear
>>>evidence of risk compensation in male teenagers.
>>>I don't want to know who you suppose _stereotypically_ is not aware of
>>>their vulnerability. I want to know who you suppose is _not_ aware of
>>>their vulnerability.

>>Well if you want a less generalised answer I cant provide that

>
> So in fact you cannot say who is not aware of their vulnerability when
> cycling.
>
>>(and I doubt
>>anyone can - makes me wonder the point of the question actually)

>
> It illustrates neatly that your claim that you are aware of your own
> vulnerability is not a respect in which you are particularly unusual.


No, it just indicates I dont know others as well as myself.

>>I have nevertheless answered your question.

>
> No. You have answered another question which has no bearing on the point.


We disagree on that point.

Paul
 
"David Damerell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:L+d*[email protected]...
> Quoting Paul Murphy <[email protected]>:
>>"Ambrose Nankivell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>I think I am, given the tremendous lack of evidence you've given for your
>>>lack of risk compensation.

>>It's not up to me to provide evidence, thinking something may be, doesn't
>>make it a fact.

>
> It's not up to me to provide evidence I've won the lottery.


The point is I'm not challenging you about whether you've won the lottery
and frankly its none of my businees if you said you had anyway.

> You should accept my own personal self-knowledge. How dare you say the
> odds are enormously against it? It's up to you to prove I haven't won it,
> and > until you do that you mustn't say it's ridiculous for me to say
> I've won it.


If it was my business (eg say I worked for Inland Revenue - someones gotta
do it), then I'd already have proof one way or another from the lottery
officials.

Paul
 
"David Damerell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:gv*[email protected]...
> Quoting Paul Murphy <[email protected]>:
>>"David Damerell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> Quoting Paul Murphy <[email protected]>:
>>>>"David Damerell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>Quoting Paul Murphy <[email protected]>:
>>>>>>"David Damerell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>I fail to see how winning the lottery has anything at all to do with a
>>>>persons behaviour or psychology (as long as they buy a ticket) so self
>>>>knowledge would be irrelevant here.
>>>Just as self-knowledge is irrelevant in a case - like risk compensation -
>>>where just about everyone's self-knowledge leads them to an erroneous
>>>conclusion.

>>It's good you mentioned "just about".

>
> Just about everyone's self-knowledge, yes; rendering self-knowledge
> _completely_ irrelevant because you have no way of knowing that you aren't
> a member of "just about everyone".


Its still good that you mentioned "just about". I cant understand how you
can come to the second conclusion .
>
>>>No. You said you don't do it while riding a bike. Just like every other
>>>special unique snowflake. What's different about you?

>>You're not being constructive with language like that,

>
> Constructive isn't the issue here. It's a perfectly effective send-up of
> your position; that you insist you are somehow unique even though there is
> no evidence to suggest that.


Whether a person uses constructive language is certainly part of the issue,
I believe in not using name calling and certainly I don't see it as
effective send up of my position, or effective at all for that manner. I've
mentioned I believe everyone is unique to an extent and I don't think it
would be right to call everyone else a snowflake either. You will have
unique aspects too, would you like to be called what you called me (or do
you believe there's nothing unique about you)? The point is if you are
challenged on an issue, its not proof positive to say that because just
about everyone behaves in a particular way under a particular situation, the
challenge is true. The more important the issue, the more effort should be
put into getting to understand the situation/individual and make the correct
determination.

>>>Because you're engaging in a cheap rhetorical trick to distract attention
>>>from the point; that there is absolutely no reason to suppose you are any
>>>different from the vast masses who risk compensate and think they don't.

>>We disagree but even if you were right, don't be tricked then

>
> I'm not; I'm not going to be drawn into comparisons of concluding that you
> risk compensate with shooting people.


That wasn't my intention to draw such a comparison at all. My views are
summarised in my last sentence in my most recent comment above.

Paul
 
"David Damerell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:mih*[email protected]...
> Quoting Paul Murphy <[email protected]>:
>>"David Damerell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>Quoting Paul Murphy <[email protected]>:
>>>>>Are you suggesting that every single person posting here saying that
>>>>>they
>>>>>are competent to understand the papers and that they started pro-helmet
>>>>>actually secretly had an anti-helmet agenda all along? Because that's
>>>>>as
>>>>>insulting as it is ridiculous.
>>>>No - but are you 100% certain that this doesn't occur at all?
>>>Why would I have to be?

>>I'f you're going to use black and white thinking aguments with me,
>>remember
>>it works both ways.

>
> No, it doesn't. I asked for an explanation for the actions of those people
> who started pro-helmet. Obviously an insinuation that one of them might
> have done something does not provide such an explanation.


It appears that you are wanting to "pigeon hole" me in with other people -
is this correct?
>
>>>Your insinuation only explains the people who started pro-helmet if you
>>>are willing to accuse each and every one of them of having had a hidden
>>>agenda all along.

>>I dont accept your association with "pro helmet" people (whatever that
>>means) - I am not seeking to explain the actions of them.

>
> In that case you're talking total gibberish. Please try and actually
> construct an argument, not merely some plausible-sounding rhetoric.


I dont understand what that means. My point is I'm not associating with
other groups in this thread. In order for me to convince you of this (not
that I need to), what sort of argument would youi like? (reminds me of a
Monty Python sketch - the 15 minute one or 30 minute one...)

> Start again. If you think experts may have a bias, how do you explain the
> people who started pro-helmet and became otherwise as a result of reading
> the literature? Why did they reach a conclusion against their bias? So far
> you've managed an insinuation that they might secretly have had an
> anti-helmet agenda all along. Either you are suggesting that applies to
> all of them, which is insulting and ridiculous, or you haven't answered
> the original question.


Re-read my response so far, its clear to me (and doesn't match your
assumptions/comments above). I've already stated my point was about not
wanting to trust experts "to much". Anything beyond this is
speculation/assumptions on your part.

Paul
 
"Paul Murphy" <[email protected]> wrote in message>
> No, it just indicates I dont know others as well as myself.

The human capacity for self-delusion is boundless, and the effects of belief
are overpowering.
Michael Shermer
 
In article
<[email protected]>,
"Ed Pirrero" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Michael Press wrote:
> > In article
> > <[email protected]>,
> > "Ed Pirrero" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > Michael Press wrote:
> > > > In article
> > > > >
> > > > > Your insinuations are offensive, but I've read enough of your
> > > > > dribblings to know you're not adult enough to offer an apology.
> > > >
> > > > Was it something I said?
> > >
> > > Yes. Are you adult enough to recognize that your insinuations are
> > > offensive, or do you need some public schooling in the matter?

> >
> > While this is a public forum, the remarks that you object
> > to were made to Sandy in responding to a question he
> > asked.

>
> No they weren't. If the above were true, then the answer to Sandy's
> question would have been a simple "no".


The question cannot be addressed with a simple `no' in its
context because the question asked has implications and I
spoke to them.

> > You are free to ignore them, since they are not
> > addressed to you.

>
> No, they were addressed to my comments. Otherwise, they'd make no
> sense.
>
> > Instead you chose to introduce the subject, then
> > objected when it was addressed.

>
> Ah, so you *were* addressing my comments. Nice of you to lie a few
> times before admitting the truth.
>
> You're not even adult enough to admit you were speaking to my postings.
> How small of you.


I stand behind my comments in the reply to Sandy. As you
became abusive at my remarks I chose a polite lie that I
did not address you. And as you find this unacceptable we
can return. I will address them you. You say that you
limit your choices to battling your wife or doing what she
expects without comment. Do you respect her? That is not
to expressing it: battle or shut up. Or do you believe in
bicycle helmets, and hide behind your wife?

Is it love to say `I will do as you say", even when you
know otherwise? No, it is contempt, or submission to
emotional blackmail, or part of a negotiation, or
appeasement, .... No good can come of it; only a
temporary, uneasy peace that is no peace at all. Best to
sort out these matters.

--
Michael Press
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Tony Raven wrote:
> John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
> > On 30 May 2006 18:25:01 -0700, "Ed Pirrero" <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >> An idea popped up earlier, and I haven't seen it addressed anywhere - I
> >> have read/heard that wearing a helmet improperly is worse than wearing
> >> no helmet at all. So, if the folks new to helmet wearing just slap one
> >> on their dome without regard to proper fitment, could this not be a
> >> source of over-representation of helmet-wearing injureds in the data
> >> set?

> >
> > This is interesting.
> >

>
> If you can believe anything that TRT publish, their data from an
> investigation of helmet fit[1] was that 94% of helmets were good or
> excellent fit, 2% fair and 4% poor fit. So a minor issue. They also
> estimated an increased risk of head injury as for a poor fit helmet but
> if you look at the numbers involved in that category and the confidence
> intervals the difference is not significant over a good fit and marginal
> over an excellent fit. So not a big issue, even using data from the
> strongly pro-helmet camp.
>
> [1] Fit of bicycle safety helmets and risk of head
> injuries in children, Injury Prevention 1999;5:194-197


I recollect a paper indicating a 3-fold increase in risk over
unhelmeted for poorly fitted helmets but cannot remember where except
that it came from a UK study. It could be a bigger issue than you
indicate. I have looked for the reference but cannot immediately find
it.

...d
 
David Martin wrote:

> I recollect a paper indicating a 3-fold increase in risk over
> unhelmeted for poorly fitted helmets but cannot remember where except
> that it came from a UK study. It could be a bigger issue than you
> indicate. I have looked for the reference but cannot immediately find
> it.


It's a valid point, and it may help explain why the effect of helmets
appears to be negative at a population level. It's somwhat ironic that
one of the main effects of aggressive helmet campaigning is to produce
so many cyclists with ill-fitting and incorrectly worn helmets, who are
almost certainly less safe than they would be bare-headed. Indeed I
remember Guy posting a link to the BHIT website when they featured a
picture of a teenage girl modelling a helmet, worn on the back of her
head. Even the manufacturers state that helmets should be properly
fitted and correctly worn.

--
Dave...
 
In article
<[email protected]>,
"Ed Pirrero" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Michael Press wrote:
> > In article
> > <[email protected]>,
> > "Ed Pirrero" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > > And for sure there are long,
> > > > long arguments about politics in "daily life." Maybe not in one's
> > > > home, but they exist off-line as well.
> > >
> > > Yes, I understand that as well. But when cases are discussed about why
> > > someone would wear a helmet, even if he/she knew there wasn't a safety
> > > benefit - well, I gave an example. I'm not sure that enough data has
> > > been collected to make a categorical statement that a helmet has little
> > > if any value in any particular circumstance, so I keep in mind that it
> > > is possible that a helmet is helpful in some cases.

> >
> > Is there insufficient enough data to render helmet laws
> > unsupportable?

>
> Huh?
>
> That query doesn't make sense to me.


You say that there is not enough data to support saying
that a helmet has little or no value in any particular
case. I see this assertion as removing any support for
mandatory helmet laws.

--
Michael Press
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"Paul Murphy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Ambrose Nankivell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > "Paul Murphy" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >> "Ambrose Nankivell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> news:[email protected]...
> >> >
> >> > Of course, most people don't expect such incredibly stubborn denial

in
> >> > mature adults.
> >> >
> >> If you are assuming its denial (ie without proof) then who is correct

and
> > is
> >> it wise to make such assumptions?

> >
> > I think I am, given the tremendous lack of evidence you've given for

your
> > lack of risk compensation.

>
> It's not up to me to provide evidence, thinking something may be, doesn't
> make it a fact.
>
> >> Are you implying its acceptable to engage
> >> in name calling when someone gets annoyed?

> >
> > It wasn't an especially ad hominem attack, in actual fact.

>
> I dont understand Latin but mild though it may be, its still a personal
> attack.


My point was that it was an attack on your line of reasoning, not on you.
That's what ad hominem means. It's a Latin phrase used as an English word,
and the specific terminology for labelling a fallacial style of debate. If
you're planning on discussing quality of debate, it's fairly elimentary
vocabulary.

> >> I don't like the implication of
> >> that sort of message if you are, the potential consequences can only be

a
> >> slippery slope.

> >
> > Maybe exasperated is more appropriate a description of David's behaviour
> > than annoyed.

>
> I believe that sort of behaviour, although understandable and very common,
> is inappropriate in this forum. It's unfortunate you dont seem to be

wanting
> to uphold the same standards.
>

I do want to uphold the standards. I also find it frustrating that people
seem so able to deny doing something that they are in all probability doing.
I've spelt out the mechanisms for risk compensation happening, in
non-confrontational language, several layers back up this thread, and still
you're swearing blind that you don't do it, the reason being that you know
you don't, end of story.

I was writing exactly the same arguments on this very same newsgroup over
five years ago, so I may have got frustrated, but I don't think I'm someone
who doesn't have a stake in having high standards of behaviour here
(uk.rec.cycling; r.b.t's not somewhere I could enjoy talking about anything)

A
 
David Martin wrote:
>
> I recollect a paper indicating a 3-fold increase in risk over
> unhelmeted for poorly fitted helmets but cannot remember where except
> that it came from a UK study. It could be a bigger issue than you
> indicate. I have looked for the reference but cannot immediately find
> it.
>


I'm not aware of another paper and would be interested in the reference
if you have it. Are you sure you are not thinking of the same paper
which came up with 2x for poorly fitted helmets and 3x for helmets that
came off in the accident? However when you look at the number of cases
and the confidence intervals on those figures it dubious. Their
assessment of helmet fit, based mainly on owner self assessment, does
not accord with observation studies in shops selling helmets in New
Zealand and Massachusetts.

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci
 
Michael Press wrote:
> In article
> <[email protected]>,
> "Ed Pirrero" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Michael Press wrote:
> > > In article
> > > <[email protected]>,
> > > "Ed Pirrero" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Michael Press wrote:
> > > > > In article
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Your insinuations are offensive, but I've read enough of your
> > > > > > dribblings to know you're not adult enough to offer an apology.
> > > > >
> > > > > Was it something I said?
> > > >
> > > > Yes. Are you adult enough to recognize that your insinuations are
> > > > offensive, or do you need some public schooling in the matter?
> > >
> > > While this is a public forum, the remarks that you object
> > > to were made to Sandy in responding to a question he
> > > asked.

> >
> > No they weren't. If the above were true, then the answer to Sandy's
> > question would have been a simple "no".

>
> The question cannot be addressed with a simple `no' in its
> context because the question asked has implications and I
> spoke to them.


Of course it could. It's a simple "yes/no" question. The
*implications* come in context of my comments.

But we both knew that in advance.

> > > Instead you chose to introduce the subject, then
> > > objected when it was addressed.

> >
> > Ah, so you *were* addressing my comments. Nice of you to lie a few
> > times before admitting the truth.
> >
> > You're not even adult enough to admit you were speaking to my postings.
> > How small of you.

>
> I stand behind my comments in the reply to Sandy.


Even though I have repeatedly told you they are a distortion of the
reality? Even after explaining it more fully? Even after I told you
that the distortion was offensive?

You came to a conclusion, and no data will rouse you from that
position. How pro-helmet-like of you.

> As you
> became abusive at my remarks I chose a polite lie that I
> did not address you.


You were the one to begin the abuse, by insinuating false things
without one shred of knowledge. Things you would dare not insinuate in
person.

> And as you find this unacceptable we
> can return. I will address them you. You say that you
> limit your choices to battling your wife or doing what she
> expects without comment.


A lie no less bold than the first one you told. Can you not comprehend
anything more subtle than this? Is everything black and white? If so,
then this conversation is at an end.

> Do you respect her? That is not
> to expressing it: battle or shut up.


You are being deliberately obtuse to avoid admitting that your original
characterizations were made without any sort of knowledge.

> Or do you believe in
> bicycle helmets, and hide behind your wife?


Have you stopped beating your wife?

> Is it love to say `I will do as you say", even when you
> know otherwise?


Is it a false characterization to make the request or preference into a
demand? Why, yes, yes it is!

> No, it is contempt, or submission to
> emotional blackmail, or part of a negotiation, or
> appeasement


Of course it is, when you construct your strawman like that. But
that's not the reality of the situation, now is it? Since you cannot
admit that you made an error in your characterization, then you must
stick by this to avoid being wrong. Wait, isn't that the thing you
bemoan in usenet? Wow.

> No good can come of it; only a
> temporary, uneasy peace that is no peace at all. Best to
> sort out these matters.


Especially when they are invented whole out of the cloth. By turning a
preference into a demand, and by turning my preference into an
adversion, all of a sudden, there's conflict where it never really
existed! Presto-change-o, here we have a way to pistol-whip yet
another preson who is not part of the anti-helmet jihad!

IOW, you are willfully complete in your idiocy. Thank you for
confirming what I already knew.

E.P.
 
On 31 May 2006 05:57:37 -0700, "Ozark Bicycle"
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>Tony Raven wrote:
>> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>> > Tony Raven wrote:
>> >> Ozark Bicycle wrote:
>> >>> No national MHL anywhere on the close or distant horizon. If it comes
>> >>> up locally, I'll be there to oppose it; but we don't even have a
>> >>> motorcycle MHL here, so I think I can rest easy.
>> >>>
>> >> You have an MHL for motorcyclists under 21
>> >>
>> >
>> > There are many age limited laws: drinking age, driving age, voting age,
>> > age of consent, etc., etc. Should we oppose them all? Or only the ones
>> > that come afoul of *your* social vision, Mr. Special Tony?

>>
>> Just pointing out that your statement "we don't even have a motorcycle
>> MHL here" was incorrect, nothing more.

>
>Silly me, I thought we were talking about laws as applied to adults.
>Perhaps you should post your whines to
>alt.adultsaresounfairtojuveniles.misc


Your rhetoric would be more powerful it, when confronted with an clear
error of fact on your part you acknowledged it in a serious way and
tried to move beyond it, rather than just mocking it. Doing so makes
you look bitter and unwilling to deal with facts.

If I was arguing on your side of this point I would have said
something like "Oh, I wasn't aware of that. But in any case I don't
think it's a problem as we have many laws that only applies to
juvenilles and have not been extended to adults." Or something like
that.

JT

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On 31 May 2006 15:20:40 +0100 (BST), David Damerell
<[email protected]> wrote:

>I asked for an explanation for the actions of those people
>who started pro-helmet.


I've described it before but here it is again, with a little more
detail. As a kid I rode a bit in the summers a lot, and without a
helmet. First as a little kid mainly on dirt road and lawns and such,
and later in mid-teens some road riding of a few dozen miles at a
time. No helmet.

But I saw touring cyclists (on trips organized by American Youth
Hostels) and racing cyclists with helmets, so when I started riding
more seriously, especially around my home where there is a lot of
traffic I got one. And I got into racing where they are required.

It was part of being a serious cyclist. I still wear a helmet most of
the time, but am doing so less and less. Annoyingly some of the places
I ride require them.

The two things that have led me to ride more without a helmet are
information/debate such as in this newsgroup and also with a friend,
and thinking about cycling in China (where I lived for some time and
rode without a helmet) and in the Netherlands.

JT

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