Re: Helmet Wankers



Chris Malcolm wrote:
>
> 1) The populations of car drivers and motorcyclists are very
> different. Motorcyclists are much more likely to be young men with
> very much less road experience -- a category which is known to have a
> much higher accident risk.
>


It used to be that the prime source of donor eyes for corneal transplants was
teenage motorcycle riders. I gather it has now changed to 40 something
motorbike riders reflecting the trend for them to go out and buy the powerful
bike they could not afford in their youth.

Tony
 
In article <d%[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> "W K" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> >
> > Interesting assertion, but a subtle effect (not sure how you define
> > "significant"), can be far from negligible on a whole population.

>
> True, but remember that these are not the victims of accidents to which
> helmet laws are directed.
>
> > I thought the whole "risk compensation" business was about such subtle
> > changes to behaviour. e.g. people with seatbelts and ABS do not drive

> like
> > loonies, just very slightly less safely.

>
> But bicyclists with helmets will descend hills at 60 mph (96 kph) when they
> would NEVER do that without a helmet. My experience is that the difference
> in chance taking is rather large on bicycles.


I find that very odd. If you hit a rock or tree at 60mph, it's not
going to matter one bit whether you have that helmet on or not. At 20
or 25, it probably would because the helmet will absorb a significant
portion of the impact energy. It might protect you from a nasty scalp
abrasion as you slide head first on the pavement, but that's not
normally fatal or permanently damaging anyway.

I've found that I don't ride noticeably different with a helmet than
without.

--
Dave Kerber
Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.
 
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 22:24:41 GMT,
> John Doe <[email protected]> wrote:
> > Where will it stop. Will in 10 years people want to drive 4-5T trucks to
> > keep that one step ahead for overkill on a passenger vehicle
> >

>
> Nah. This is the engine I NEED in my SUV.
>
> http://www.k4viz.com/12-Cylinder.html
> (I believe there is a 14 cylinder version available as well - not mentioned
> on this page though)
>
> It's also very efficient - thermal efficiency exceeds 50% at maximum economy
> so obviously A VERY GOOD THING.


I was going to call BS on this by saying that only the biggest marine
diesel engines are that efficient, until I went to the page and
discovered that this *is* one of those engines. That's right up there
with a large combined-cycle natural gas-fired power plant (which will
hit about 60% IIRC).


> Slightly difficult manoeuvering around central London though :-(


I'll bet it doesn't accelerate very well, either! Imaging what kind of
step-up gears you would need, since the engine only turns about 100 rpm!


--
Dave Kerber
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On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 22:24:41 GMT, "John Doe" <[email protected]>
wrote in message <[email protected]>:

>You are dead right. Couldnt agree more. Cars are a plague on our society.
>Wouldnt need to wear a helmet on my bike if it were not for that filth.
>Especially those damn tanks that seem to be popular now. Why is that? Is
>it because they think their ever growing arses look big in a small car? Do
>people go into a car yard now and say "This car makes my **** look too big.
>You got anything in a 3 ton range?"
>Where will it stop. Will in 10 years people want to drive 4-5T trucks to
>keep that one step ahead for overkill on a passenger vehicle


Plenty of satire, no irony. Seems fair to me.

Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://chapmancentral.demon.co.uk
 
On Sat, 7 Feb 2004 16:20:51 +0000 (UTC), [email protected] (Chris
Malcolm) wrote in message <[email protected]>:

>What would you expect to happen if you based a health care industry on
>paying the doctors and medicine manufacturers when people were ill?
>Exactly.


Satire of the highest quality :) I nominate this for post of the
week.

Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://chapmancentral.demon.co.uk
 
On Sat, 7 Feb 2004 13:15:06 -0500, David Kerber
<ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote in message
<[email protected]>:

>If you hit a rock or tree at 60mph, it's not
>going to matter one bit whether you have that helmet on or not. At 20
>or 25, it probably would because the helmet will absorb a significant
>portion of the impact energy.


Up to a point, Lord Copper. Actually a helmet will absorb the energy
of a fall onto a flat surface from a standing start at about 5'4"
height.

>I've found that I don't ride noticeably different with a helmet than
>without.


Keyword: noticeably - i.e. you don't notice. Which is precisely the
point. I ride much more cautiously without a helmet on my drop-bar
bike, and am much more nervous at speed on my drop-bar bike than on my
recumbent.

Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://chapmancentral.demon.co.uk
 
On Sat, 7 Feb 2004 13:29:10 -0500,
David Kerber <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
>>
>> http://www.k4viz.com/12-Cylinder.html
>> (I believe there is a 14 cylinder version available as well - not mentioned
>> on this page though)
>>

>
>> Slightly difficult manoeuvering around central London though :-(

>
> I'll bet it doesn't accelerate very well, either! Imaging what kind of
> step-up gears you would need, since the engine only turns about 100 rpm!
>
>

Depends on how big your wheels are :)

Tim.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/
 
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> On Sat, 7 Feb 2004 13:15:06 -0500, David Kerber
> <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote in message
> <[email protected]>:
>
> >If you hit a rock or tree at 60mph, it's not
> >going to matter one bit whether you have that helmet on or not. At 20
> >or 25, it probably would because the helmet will absorb a significant
> >portion of the impact energy.

>
> Up to a point, Lord Copper. Actually a helmet will absorb the energy
> of a fall onto a flat surface from a standing start at about 5'4"
> height.


Exactly. And that leaves that much less energy to be transmitted to my
skull. It won't absorb it all, but it will absorb whatever it can,
reducing what hits my scull.

>
> >I've found that I don't ride noticeably different with a helmet than
> >without.

>
> Keyword: noticeably - i.e. you don't notice. Which is precisely the
> point. I ride much more cautiously without a helmet on my drop-bar
> bike, and am much more nervous at speed on my drop-bar bike than on my
> recumbent.


Not everybody is that way, though. It just sounds like I'm a more
cautious rider than you are, whether I have my helmet on or not.

--
Dave Kerber
Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.
 
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...

....

> God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light.


So are you an EE or a Physicist?


--
Dave Kerber
Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.
 
On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 04:37:56 GMT, "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>And furthermore, a helmet is about 10% of the weight of the head. And this


You have an extremely small/light head. An air-head, perhaps?


---
Cheers

PeterC

[Rushing headlong: out of control - and there ain't no stopping]
[and there's nothing you can do about it at all]
 
On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 21:08:35 +0000, "Just zis Guy, you know?"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Keyword: noticeably - i.e. you don't notice. Which is precisely the
>point. I ride much more cautiously without a helmet on my drop-bar


Which therefore means that you are obviously of the impression that the
helmet gives you a degree of safety not otherwise conferred if you're
not wearing one.

So you DO believe that helmets are a good idea to save from harm. :)


---
Cheers

PeterC

[Rushing headlong: out of control - and there ain't no stopping]
[and there's nothing you can do about it at all]
 
On 7/2/04 9:36 pm, in article [email protected],
"David Kerber" <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
>> On Sat, 7 Feb 2004 13:15:06 -0500, David Kerber
>> <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote in message
>> <[email protected]>:
>>
>>> If you hit a rock or tree at 60mph, it's not
>>> going to matter one bit whether you have that helmet on or not. At 20
>>> or 25, it probably would because the helmet will absorb a significant
>>> portion of the impact energy.

>>
>> Up to a point, Lord Copper. Actually a helmet will absorb the energy
>> of a fall onto a flat surface from a standing start at about 5'4"
>> height.

>
> Exactly. And that leaves that much less energy to be transmitted to my
> skull. It won't absorb it all, but it will absorb whatever it can,
> reducing what hits my scull.


Do the math. E=1/2 mv^2 vs E= 1/2 m(v)^2 - (1/2 x 7 (12)^2)

(design spec for a helmet is to reduce an impact at 12mph of just the head
to a just non-lethal for 50% estimated decelleration on a linear impact)

Using rather nasty non SI units (mph and kilograms)

I get the following equivalent speeds:

Speed just head full bodyweight
5 0 3.52
10 0 9.35
15 9 14.6
20 16 19.7
25 21.9 24.75
30 27.5 29.8

Let me explain these. The first column is the speed at impact. 5 and 10 are
equivalent to falls from a seated position on floor or chair, well below the
height of a straight fall on a bike.

The second column is the equivalent speed of a head impact if the only
momentum the helmet is protecting against is the standard 7kg head.

The third column is the effective speed of an impact if the helmet is having
to decelerate the whole body (assuming an 80kg rigid body.) (bear in mind
that the bodyweight has no effect on the unhelmeted head)

These numbers are not terribly convincing for the utility of helmets.

Bear in mind that these assume certain things.
1. a rigid body
2. a linear impact. If there is a rotational component all bets are off. It
takes 1/50th the force to provide damage with rotational impacts than it
does with linear impacts. Does the extra bulk and nature of construction of
a helmet contribute to rotational injuries?
Given the lack of effectiveness of helmets in preventing serious head
injuries (including fatalities) the answer may well be yes.

Personally I wear a helmet when there is a reasonable risk of falling off at
slow speeds with linear impacts, ie when I am riding off road (I am quite
cautions so am not a downhill MTBer, just someone who likes to get out for a
pleasant ride.) or in the winter when there is ice on the ground. My
children wear helmets as they are still likely to fall off at slow speeds (7
and 5 years old) but I will not force them to wear them when they are
confident on two wheels and reasonably aware of the risks of crashes.

I don't wear a helmet most of the time I ride the bike. I do not 'just fall
off' on the road. If I do have a collision it will be one where the speed
will be relatively high and the energies involved will make a bike helmet as
useful as a teacup for bailing the titanic. Given my accident record and
riding style, I don't see that as a problem to be concerned with. I have
bumped my head more times just walking than cycling.

Might a helmet make a difference in the unlikely event of a serious
accident? Possibly, but whether it would be a positive or a negative
difference is very hard to predict. I'll quite happily trade off a few
scrapes and bruises versus serious brain injury.

...d
 
On Sat, 7 Feb 2004 16:36:22 -0500, David Kerber
<ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote in message
<[email protected]>:


>> Up to a point, Lord Copper. Actually a helmet will absorb the energy
>> of a fall onto a flat surface from a standing start at about 5'4"
>> height.


>Exactly. And that leaves that much less energy to be transmitted to my
>skull. It won't absorb it all, but it will absorb whatever it can,
>reducing what hits my scull.


And at the same time aplifying the rotational component which is the
most common cause of brain injury.

>> Keyword: noticeably - i.e. you don't notice. Which is precisely the
>> point. I ride much more cautiously without a helmet on my drop-bar
>> bike, and am much more nervous at speed on my drop-bar bike than on my
>> recumbent.


>Not everybody is that way, though. It just sounds like I'm a more
>cautious rider than you are, whether I have my helmet on or not.


Or the difference is small in your case. It only needs to be small.

Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://chapmancentral.demon.co.uk
 
On Sat, 7 Feb 2004 16:38:04 -0500,
David Kerber <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
>
> ...
>
>> God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light.

>
> So are you an EE or a Physicist?
>

Physicist.

Tim.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/
 
In article <BC4B178C.C551%[email protected]>, martin-
[email protected] says...
> On 7/2/04 9:36 pm, in article [email protected],
> "David Kerber" <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote:
>
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > [email protected] says...
> >> On Sat, 7 Feb 2004 13:15:06 -0500, David Kerber
> >> <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote in message
> >> <[email protected]>:
> >>
> >>> If you hit a rock or tree at 60mph, it's not
> >>> going to matter one bit whether you have that helmet on or not. At 20
> >>> or 25, it probably would because the helmet will absorb a significant
> >>> portion of the impact energy.
> >>
> >> Up to a point, Lord Copper. Actually a helmet will absorb the energy
> >> of a fall onto a flat surface from a standing start at about 5'4"
> >> height.

> >
> > Exactly. And that leaves that much less energy to be transmitted to my
> > skull. It won't absorb it all, but it will absorb whatever it can,
> > reducing what hits my scull.

>
> Do the math. E=1/2 mv^2 vs E= 1/2 m(v)^2 - (1/2 x 7 (12)^2)
>
> (design spec for a helmet is to reduce an impact at 12mph of just the head
> to a just non-lethal for 50% estimated decelleration on a linear impact)
>
> Using rather nasty non SI units (mph and kilograms)
>
> I get the following equivalent speeds:
>
> Speed just head full bodyweight
> 5 0 3.52
> 10 0 9.35
> 15 9 14.6
> 20 16 19.7
> 25 21.9 24.75
> 30 27.5 29.8
>
> Let me explain these. The first column is the speed at impact. 5 and 10 are
> equivalent to falls from a seated position on floor or chair, well below the
> height of a straight fall on a bike.
>
> The second column is the equivalent speed of a head impact if the only
> momentum the helmet is protecting against is the standard 7kg head.
>
> The third column is the effective speed of an impact if the helmet is having
> to decelerate the whole body (assuming an 80kg rigid body.) (bear in mind
> that the bodyweight has no effect on the unhelmeted head)


An extreme, and unwarranted assumption for most crashes, IMO; usually
your body is also going to hit the ground at roughly the same time. For
a counter-example, reason from a different angle and assume that the
helmet only has to absorb the kinetic energy of the head, which is
probably closer to the truth than having it take the entire body's
energy (I am aware that a real crash is going to be somewhere between
those two extremes).

Without actually doing the math to derive actual joules, assume a helmet
can absorb 100 units of energy, which we will say corresponds to your
12mph impact of just the head. If I'm then going 24 mph and have a
direct impact in the direction of my motion (such as the side of a car,
or a tree), the kinetic energy of the head is obviously 4x what it was
at 12mph. The helmet will absorb 25% of the impact energy in deforming,
leaving only 75% of it transmitted to my skull. To me, 25% is a pretty
significant reduction in potential damage. Of course, if you don't hit
an obstruction, but instead fall off the bike at speed and just land and
slide in the road, then the only *impact* your head will take is the
vertical (falling) component of your fall, and does not have to absorb
the energy of your forward motion. That will be dissipated in tearing
your clothes and skin.

Obviously as you go faster and faster, the percentage reduction is
smaller and smaller, so a helmet gives you less and less relative
protection. So it seems to me that a helmet will give relatively better
protection to slower riders, and less to faster riders.


> These numbers are not terribly convincing for the utility of helmets.
>
> Bear in mind that these assume certain things.
> 1. a rigid body


And IMO, this is a very poor assumption for most real-world crashes and
falls.

> 2. a linear impact. If there is a rotational component all bets are off. It
> takes 1/50th the force to provide damage with rotational impacts than it
> does with linear impacts. Does the extra bulk and nature of construction of
> a helmet contribute to rotational injuries?
> Given the lack of effectiveness of helmets in preventing serious head
> injuries (including fatalities) the answer may well be yes.


Maybe, but I doubt the overall effect will be negative.


> Personally I wear a helmet when there is a reasonable risk of falling off at
> slow speeds with linear impacts, ie when I am riding off road (I am quite
> cautions so am not a downhill MTBer, just someone who likes to get out for a
> pleasant ride.) or in the winter when there is ice on the ground. My
> children wear helmets as they are still likely to fall off at slow speeds (7
> and 5 years old) but I will not force them to wear them when they are
> confident on two wheels and reasonably aware of the risks of crashes.
>
> I don't wear a helmet most of the time I ride the bike. I do not 'just fall
> off' on the road. If I do have a collision it will be one where the speed
> will be relatively high and the energies involved will make a bike helmet as
> useful as a teacup for bailing the titanic. Given my accident record and
> riding style, I don't see that as a problem to be concerned with. I have
> bumped my head more times just walking than cycling.


I see that we do agree that at higher relative impact speeds, a helmet
provides relatively less protection. We just disagree on whether you
will derive "significant" benefit from whatever energy dissipation the
helmet can give you, even if it will not provide full protection.

Thanks for making a reasoned, logical argument rather than emotional
one!

.....

--
Dave Kerber
Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.
 
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...

....

> >Exactly. And that leaves that much less energy to be transmitted to my
> >skull. It won't absorb it all, but it will absorb whatever it can,
> >reducing what hits my scull.

>
> And at the same time aplifying the rotational component which is the
> most common cause of brain injury.


Do you have any cites for the claim that helmets "amplify the rotational
component" of a head impact to any significant degree? I don't need to
see them for the fact that rotational acclerations are more damaging to
the brain; that is well-known, and has been for many years.


> >> Keyword: noticeably - i.e. you don't notice. Which is precisely the
> >> point. I ride much more cautiously without a helmet on my drop-bar
> >> bike, and am much more nervous at speed on my drop-bar bike than on my
> >> recumbent.

>
> >Not everybody is that way, though. It just sounds like I'm a more
> >cautious rider than you are, whether I have my helmet on or not.

>
> Or the difference is small in your case. It only needs to be small.


But because the difference in riding style is small for me, I think I
personally gain in _overall_ safety. I.E. the small increase (not
noticeable by me) in risky behavior is more than compensated for by the
increased protection from the helmet. Obviously that will not be the
case for every cyclist.

--
Dave Kerber
Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.
 
In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> On Sat, 7 Feb 2004 16:38:04 -0500,
> David Kerber <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > [email protected] says...
> >
> > ...
> >
> >> God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light.

> >
> > So are you an EE or a Physicist?
> >

> Physicist.
>
> Tim.


That was my guess; most EE's of my acquaintance (including me) aren't
that big into theory to remember the basic equations years later, even
though they certainly learned them at one time.

--
Dave Kerber
Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.
 
David Kerber <ns_dkerber@ns_ids.net> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

> That was my guess; most EE's of my acquaintance (including me) aren't
> that big into theory to remember the basic equations years later, even
> though they certainly learned them at one time.


EE = electrical engineer? That's me (well, at least if what your degree was
defines you). V=IR is about all I can remember instantly, most other stuff
takes a bit of thinking or a book :-/ Mind you, I fell into the computer
side of things soon after graduating and even Ohm's law became irrelevant
:-/

Graeme
 
David Kerber wrote:

>>>> God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J +
>>>> @D/@t," and there was light.
>>>
>>> So are you an EE or a Physicist?
>>>

>> Physicist.
>>
>> Tim.

>
> That was my guess; most EE's of my acquaintance (including me) aren't
> that big into theory to remember the basic equations years later, even
> though they certainly learned them at one time.


Also, I was under the impression that EEs usually express these in a
different format.

--
Benjamin Lewis

"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips
over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come."
--Matt Groening
 
>And this intuitively feels right.

>Someone is going to howl me down about this but it just seems obvious to
>me that there is a perceived risk level I am ok with and one I am not.
>And that the more experience one has the more likely the percieved risk
>is to be close to the real risk.


That seems rational to me. I was definiteley afraid of city traffic
before riding in it and gaining some experiece.

A small amount of training and some years of practice makes the risk
component seem insignificant to me, in comparison to the rewards.

There is always, I suppose, a base level of risk. But training and
experience smooth this out remarkably.

--

_______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________
------------------"Buddy Holly, the Texas Elvis"------------------
__________306.350.357.38>>[email protected]__________