Re: I was misled



J

[email protected]

Guest
Mark Hickey <[email protected]> writes:

> FWIW, our church organized women volunteers to accompany any Muslim
> women on shopping or other public trips. It's sad that it was
> necessary... some of the nicest people I know happen to be Muslim,
> but that particular faith has its own share of idiots as well. I
> guess no group is immune.

Don't you realize that "Some of them are my best friends." is a
classic racist expression. You must be able to phrase that in a way
that it doesn't come out as such a hackneyed metaphor, sounding as
though you are breaking your arm to pat yourself on the back. It
rings even odder coming from someone who is supporting such a right
wing president who himself bungles such phrases.

Jobst Brandt
[email protected]
 
[email protected] wrote:

>Mark Hickey <[email protected]> writes:
>
>> FWIW, our church organized women volunteers to accompany any Muslim
>> women on shopping or other public trips. It's sad that it was
>> necessary... some of the nicest people I know happen to be Muslim,
>> but that particular faith has its own share of idiots as well. I
>> guess no group is immune.
>
>Don't you realize that "Some of them are my best friends." is a
>classic racist expression. You must be able to phrase that in a way
>that it doesn't come out as such a hackneyed metaphor, sounding as
>though you are breaking your arm to pat yourself on the back. It
>rings even odder coming from someone who is supporting such a right
>wing president who himself bungles such phrases.

Thanks for the English lesson, Jobst. Funny though how you "quote me"
saying something I didn't even say. Now I understand why you think
GWB said things he didn't say either.

If it's your contention that saying "some of the nicest people I know
happen to be Muslim" is a "hackneyed metaphor", I'd say you're WAY out
of touch with reality. Way out of touch.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame
 
Mark Hickey wrote:

> [email protected] wrote:
>
>
>>Mark Hickey <[email protected]> writes:
>>
>>
>>>FWIW, our church organized women volunteers to accompany any Muslim
>>>women on shopping or other public trips. It's sad that it was
>>>necessary... some of the nicest people I know happen to be Muslim,
>>>but that particular faith has its own share of idiots as well. I
>>>guess no group is immune.
>>
>>Don't you realize that "Some of them are my best friends." is a
>>classic racist expression. You must be able to phrase that in a way
>>that it doesn't come out as such a hackneyed metaphor, sounding as
>>though you are breaking your arm to pat yourself on the back. It
>>rings even odder coming from someone who is supporting such a right
>>wing president who himself bungles such phrases.
>
>
> Thanks for the English lesson, Jobst. Funny though how you "quote me"
> saying something I didn't even say. Now I understand why you think
> GWB said things he didn't say either.
>
> If it's your contention that saying "some of the nicest people I know
> happen to be Muslim" is a "hackneyed metaphor", I'd say you're WAY out
> of touch with reality. Way out of touch.
>

Some of the nicest people I know happen to be black.

Greg

--
Destroy your safe and happy lives
Before it is too late
The battles we fought were long and hard
Just not to be consumed by rock'n'roll
 
On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 06:52:12 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email protected]> from
Habanero Cycles wrote:

>If it's your contention that saying "some of the nicest people I know
>happen to be Muslim" is a "hackneyed metaphor", I'd say you're WAY out
>of touch with reality. Way out of touch.

Here in the deep south, racism is still a daily issue. I often hear "Some of
the nicest people I know are black." However, the people saying that often
don't consider black people nice enough for their homes and churches. I hope
your attitude is different regarding Muslims, and, I think it is. You just
happened to use an unfortunate turn of phrase.




--
Kevan Smith
[email protected]
 
Kevan Smith <[email protected]> wrote:

>On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 06:52:12 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email protected]> from
>Habanero Cycles wrote:
>
>>If it's your contention that saying "some of the nicest people I know
>>happen to be Muslim" is a "hackneyed metaphor", I'd say you're WAY out
>>of touch with reality. Way out of touch.
>
>Here in the deep south, racism is still a daily issue. I often hear "Some of
>the nicest people I know are black." However, the people saying that often
>don't consider black people nice enough for their homes and churches. I hope
>your attitude is different regarding Muslims, and, I think it is. You just
>happened to use an unfortunate turn of phrase.

I guess I'm living in a (partially) hopelessly PC world. I personally
wouldn't feel offended if someone included some group I was in in a
similar statement...

.... some of the nicest people I know happen to be bicyclists

.... some of the nicest people I know happen to be white males

.... some of the nicest people I know happen to be Christians

.... some of the nicest people I know happen to be tall, incredibly
intelligent and good looking suave fellows.

Errr, three out of four...

But whatever - I've always been for equal treatment for everyone.
That made me a liberal 30 years ago, and a conservative now.

I've hired LOTS of people over the years (not in the bike biz), and I
can say that if there was a group seriously under-represented, it
would be white males. Not because I tried to hire minorities and
women - I just had good applicants who happened to be Muslims, blacks,
women, (and of course, Chinese... but in China that wasn't worth any
extra points). Ooops, did I cross another PC boundary? ;-)

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame
 
"G.T." <[email protected]> wrote:

>Mark Hickey wrote:
>
>> If it's your contention that saying "some of the nicest people I know
>> happen to be Muslim" is a "hackneyed metaphor", I'd say you're WAY out
>> of touch with reality. Way out of touch.
>
>Some of the nicest people I know happen to be black.

Me too.

If you look at the statement's construction, it's saying (clearly I
think) that race / religion is not the issue, but the individual's
character. Isn't that kinda the whole point?

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame
 
Mark Hickey wrote:

> But whatever - I've always been for equal treatment for everyone.
> That made me a liberal 30 years ago, and a conservative now.

Forget MLK's dream - to be racially correct now
you have to consult your handy pocket race % guide
provided to you by the government and mentally
compute whether you've provided the appropriate
number of opportunities to a certain racial group
based upon their numerical representation in the
population.

--
Scott Johnson / scottjohnson at kc dot rr dot com
 
On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 10:06:12 -0400, Top Sirloin
<[email protected]> wrote in message
<[email protected]>:

>Forget MLK's dream - to be racially correct now
>you have to consult your handy pocket race % guide
>provided to you by the government and mentally
>compute whether you've provided the appropriate
>number of opportunities to a certain racial group
>based upon their numerical representation in the
>population.

Provided they're not Muslims, obviously...

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University
 
Mark Hickey <[email protected]> writes:

>>> If it's your contention that saying "some of the nicest people I
>>> know happen to be Muslim" is a "hackneyed metaphor", I'd say
>>> you're WAY out of touch with reality. Way out of touch.

>> Here in the deep south, racism is still a daily issue. I often hear
>> "Some of the nicest people I know are black." However, the people
>> saying that often don't consider black people nice enough for their
>> homes and churches. I hope your attitude is different regarding
>> Muslims, and, I think it is. You just happened to use an
>> unfortunate turn of phrase.

> I guess I'm living in a (partially) hopelessly PC world. I
> personally wouldn't feel offended if someone included some group I
> was in in a similar statement...

> ... some of the nicest people I know happen to be bicyclists

> ... some of the nicest people I know happen to be white males

> ... some of the nicest people I know happen to be Christians

> ... some of the nicest people I know happen to be tall, incredibly
> intelligent and good looking suave fellows.

> Errr, three out of four...

> But whatever - I've always been for equal treatment for everyone.
> That made me a liberal 30 years ago, and a conservative now.

> I've hired LOTS of people over the years (not in the bike biz), and
> I can say that if there was a group seriously under-represented, it
> would be white males. Not because I tried to hire minorities and
> women - I just had good applicants who happened to be Muslims,
> blacks, women, (and of course, Chinese... but in China that wasn't
> worth any extra points). Ooops, did I cross another PC boundary?
> ;-)

Please don't stop there, just say it. Some of them ARE my best friends.
It's the tone that makes the music, not the notes themselves.

Jobst Brandt
[email protected]
 
Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 10:06:12 -0400, Top Sirloin
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> <[email protected]>:
>
>
>>Forget MLK's dream - to be racially correct now
>>you have to consult your handy pocket race % guide
>>provided to you by the government and mentally
>>compute whether you've provided the appropriate
>>number of opportunities to a certain racial group
>>based upon their numerical representation in the
>>population.
>
>
> Provided they're not Muslims, obviously...

Islam is a religion, not a racial group.

--
Scott Johnson / scottjohnson at kc dot rr dot com
 
On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 14:29:45 -0400, Top Sirloin
<[email protected]> wrote in message
<[email protected]>:

>>>Forget MLK's dream - to be racially correct now
>>>you have to consult your handy pocket race % guide
>>>provided to you by the government and mentally
>>>compute whether you've provided the appropriate
>>>number of opportunities to a certain racial group
>>>based upon their numerical representation in the
>>>population.

>> Provided they're not Muslims, obviously...

>Islam is a religion, not a racial group.

And the proportion of white Muslims is? Seems to me like faith has
become a backdoor by which race discrimination can be sneaked in.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University
 
On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:35:15 +0100, "Just zis Guy, you know?"
<[email protected]> from Disorganised wrote:

>On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 14:29:45 -0400, Top Sirloin
><[email protected]> wrote in message
><[email protected]>:
>
>>>>Forget MLK's dream - to be racially correct now
>>>>you have to consult your handy pocket race % guide
>>>>provided to you by the government and mentally
>>>>compute whether you've provided the appropriate
>>>>number of opportunities to a certain racial group
>>>>based upon their numerical representation in the
>>>>population.
>
>>> Provided they're not Muslims, obviously...
>
>>Islam is a religion, not a racial group.
>
>And the proportion of white Muslims is?

Would Aryans do? Where are Aryans from?



--
Kevan Smith
[email protected]
 
Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:

> And the proportion of white Muslims is? Seems to me like faith has
> become a backdoor by which race discrimination can be sneaked in.

There aren't a lot of adherents to Shinto that are
white either. I'm not sure what your point is.

If you implying that we shouldn't profile people
based on their religion or race, you're dead
wrong. We only have so many law enforcement
resources and it's stupid not to go with the
numbers if you have no other information. Looking
for a serial killer? Chances are it's a middle
aged white male. Looking for a terrorist? Chances
are it's a muslim, regardless of their race.

My point is that somewhere along the line racial
equality went from judging people by the content
of their character instead of their skin color and
external racial features to a inherent _racist_
quota system.

--
Scott Johnson / scottjohnson at kc dot rr dot com
 
[email protected] wrote:
> Mark Hickey <[email protected]> writes:
>
>>>> If it's your contention that saying "some of the nicest people I
>>>> know happen to be Muslim" is a "hackneyed metaphor", I'd say
>>>> you're WAY out of touch with reality. Way out of touch.
>
>>> Here in the deep south, racism is still a daily issue. I often hear
>>> "Some of the nicest people I know are black." However, the people
>>> saying that often don't consider black people nice enough for their
>>> homes and churches. I hope your attitude is different regarding
>>> Muslims, and, I think it is. You just happened to use an
>>> unfortunate turn of phrase.
>
>> I guess I'm living in a (partially) hopelessly PC world. I
>> personally wouldn't feel offended if someone included some group I
>> was in in a similar statement...
>
>> ... some of the nicest people I know happen to be bicyclists
>
>> ... some of the nicest people I know happen to be white males
>
>> ... some of the nicest people I know happen to be Christians
>
>> ... some of the nicest people I know happen to be tall, incredibly
>> intelligent and good looking suave fellows.
>
>> Errr, three out of four...
>
>> But whatever - I've always been for equal treatment for everyone.
>> That made me a liberal 30 years ago, and a conservative now.
>
>> I've hired LOTS of people over the years (not in the bike biz), and
>> I can say that if there was a group seriously under-represented, it
>> would be white males. Not because I tried to hire minorities and
>> women - I just had good applicants who happened to be Muslims,
>> blacks, women, (and of course, Chinese... but in China that wasn't
>> worth any extra points). Ooops, did I cross another PC boundary?
>> ;-)
>
> Please don't stop there, just say it. Some of them ARE my best
> friends. It's the tone that makes the music, not the notes themselves.
>
So it's not what he says, it's what you hear? Is that what you're saying?
It's not what he does, it's what you want to label him as? You absolutely
ignore what the man said and then label him a racist through some weak,
thinly veiled metaphor. What you imply is that actions are irrelevent, but
as long as you conform tot he current PC terminolgy you can maintain your
credentials.

Pretty weak, and very sad.

Tom
 
[email protected] wrote:

>Mark Hickey <[email protected]> writes:
>
>>>> If it's your contention that saying "some of the nicest people I
>>>> know happen to be Muslim" is a "hackneyed metaphor", I'd say
>>>> you're WAY out of touch with reality. Way out of touch.
>
>>> Here in the deep south, racism is still a daily issue. I often hear
>>> "Some of the nicest people I know are black." However, the people
>>> saying that often don't consider black people nice enough for their
>>> homes and churches. I hope your attitude is different regarding
>>> Muslims, and, I think it is. You just happened to use an
>>> unfortunate turn of phrase.
>
>> I guess I'm living in a (partially) hopelessly PC world. I
>> personally wouldn't feel offended if someone included some group I
>> was in in a similar statement...
>
>> ... some of the nicest people I know happen to be bicyclists
>
>> ... some of the nicest people I know happen to be white males
>
>> ... some of the nicest people I know happen to be Christians
>
>> ... some of the nicest people I know happen to be tall, incredibly
>> intelligent and good looking suave fellows.
>
>> Errr, three out of four...
>
>> But whatever - I've always been for equal treatment for everyone.
>> That made me a liberal 30 years ago, and a conservative now.
>
>> I've hired LOTS of people over the years (not in the bike biz), and
>> I can say that if there was a group seriously under-represented, it
>> would be white males. Not because I tried to hire minorities and
>> women - I just had good applicants who happened to be Muslims,
>> blacks, women, (and of course, Chinese... but in China that wasn't
>> worth any extra points). Ooops, did I cross another PC boundary?
>> ;-)
>
>Please don't stop there, just say it. Some of them ARE my best friends.
>It's the tone that makes the music, not the notes themselves.

Is this one of your new knee-jerk phrases or something? Sorry if
pointing out that race is irrelevant to a person's worth offends you.

I mean, it's not like I was denigrating anyone with a southern accent
or anything... that happened on this very newsgroup not long ago
actually. The writer of the several posts ranted on about how he knew
exactly what all the "rednecks" were thinking and making all sorts of
invalid generalizations.

Perhaps you caught that - it must have bothered you deeply.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame
 
On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 00:58:54 GMT, Top Sirloin
<[email protected]> wrote in message
<[email protected]>:

>> And the proportion of white Muslims is? Seems to me like faith has
>> become a backdoor by which race discrimination can be sneaked in.

>There aren't a lot of adherents to Shinto that are
> white either. I'm not sure what your point is.

As stated: it seems to me that religion is a backdoor by which race
discrimination can be sneaked in.

>If you implying that we shouldn't profile people
>based on their religion or race

Nope. But there's a difference between the overt anti-muslim
statements made by quite a lot of poeple and the simple question of
saying "the suspect is of Arab appearance" which is merely
descriptive.

>My point is that somewhere along the line racial
>equality went from judging people by the content
>of their character instead of their skin color and
>external racial features to a inherent _racist_
>quota system.

And I think that there is a lot of work to do before most developed
countries get anywhere close to being non-racist. I can't claim to be
a fan of affirmative action, but at the Government level it makes good
sense to at least count and see how well your staff reflects the
racial mix of your area, because if it doesn't then you may have some
searching questions to answer. How will you know if your hiring
managers are pursuin unconsciously racist hiring agendas if you don't
at least count the heads?

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University
 
Top Sirloin wrote:

> If you implying that we shouldn't profile people based on their
> religion or race, you're dead wrong. We only have so many law
> enforcement resources and it's stupid not to go with the numbers if
> you have no other information. Looking for a serial killer? Chances
> are it's a middle aged white male. Looking for a terrorist? Chances
> are it's a muslim, regardless of their race.

British police had very similar thoughts on the matter in the 70s and
80s. An awful lot of people arrested and even jailed, their only crime
being "Irish and in the wrong place at the wrong time".

I don't have any numbers, of course, but it subjectively it seems to me
that if you're looking for a terrorist in the USA, chances are that he's
a white Christian American, possibly with strong opinions about
abortion, blacks, and/or guns.

--
Keith Willoughby http://flat222.org/keith/
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives."
- Jackie Robinson
 
Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:

<snip good post>

> And I think that there is a lot of work to do before most developed
> countries get anywhere close to being non-racist. I can't claim to be
> a fan of affirmative action, but at the Government level it makes good
> sense to at least count and see how well your staff reflects the
> racial mix of your area, because if it doesn't then you may have some
> searching questions to answer. How will you know if your hiring
> managers are pursuin unconsciously racist hiring agendas if you don't
> at least count the heads?

Instead of assuming my HR people are racist, I'd
look at the community and say "Why aren't we
getting people of X ethnic group that are able to
compete in the workforce?". IMHO the problem is
more likely to be rooted in the educational system
or community rather than the result of unconscious
racist hiring agendas.

It's unamerican to force businesses to not hire
the best person for the job, just as it's
unamerican to not provide everyone with the
opportunity to get a good education.

I'm done on this thread. :)

--
Scott Johnson / scottjohnson at kc dot rr dot com
 
On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 08:30:27 -0400, Top Sirloin
<[email protected]> wrote in message
<[email protected]>:

>Instead of assuming my HR people are racist, I'd
>look at the community and say "Why aren't we
>getting people of X ethnic group that are able to
>compete in the workforce?". IMHO the problem is
>more likely to be rooted in the educational system
>or community rather than the result of unconscious
>racist hiring agendas.

But HR managers are not jiring managers. Hiring managers are just
ordinary people, often with no specific skills. Difficulty with
accents can be enough to kill an application.

>It's unamerican to force businesses to not hire
>the best person for the job

Heh! Where "best" is defined as "son of the senator", right? ;-)

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University
 
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