Re: I was misled

Discussion in 'Road Cycling' started by [email protected], Jun 27, 2004.

  1. Mark Hickey <[email protected]> writes:

    > FWIW, our church organized women volunteers to accompany any Muslim
    > women on shopping or other public trips. It's sad that it was
    > necessary... some of the nicest people I know happen to be Muslim,
    > but that particular faith has its own share of idiots as well. I
    > guess no group is immune.


    Don't you realize that "Some of them are my best friends." is a
    classic racist expression. You must be able to phrase that in a way
    that it doesn't come out as such a hackneyed metaphor, sounding as
    though you are breaking your arm to pat yourself on the back. It
    rings even odder coming from someone who is supporting such a right
    wing president who himself bungles such phrases.

    Jobst Brandt
    [email protected]
     
    Tags:


  2. Mark Hickey

    Mark Hickey Guest

    [email protected] wrote:

    >Mark Hickey <[email protected]> writes:
    >
    >> FWIW, our church organized women volunteers to accompany any Muslim
    >> women on shopping or other public trips. It's sad that it was
    >> necessary... some of the nicest people I know happen to be Muslim,
    >> but that particular faith has its own share of idiots as well. I
    >> guess no group is immune.

    >
    >Don't you realize that "Some of them are my best friends." is a
    >classic racist expression. You must be able to phrase that in a way
    >that it doesn't come out as such a hackneyed metaphor, sounding as
    >though you are breaking your arm to pat yourself on the back. It
    >rings even odder coming from someone who is supporting such a right
    >wing president who himself bungles such phrases.


    Thanks for the English lesson, Jobst. Funny though how you "quote me"
    saying something I didn't even say. Now I understand why you think
    GWB said things he didn't say either.

    If it's your contention that saying "some of the nicest people I know
    happen to be Muslim" is a "hackneyed metaphor", I'd say you're WAY out
    of touch with reality. Way out of touch.

    Mark Hickey
    Habanero Cycles
    http://www.habcycles.com
    Home of the $695 ti frame
     
  3. G.T.

    G.T. Guest

    Mark Hickey wrote:

    > [email protected] wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Mark Hickey <[email protected]> writes:
    >>
    >>
    >>>FWIW, our church organized women volunteers to accompany any Muslim
    >>>women on shopping or other public trips. It's sad that it was
    >>>necessary... some of the nicest people I know happen to be Muslim,
    >>>but that particular faith has its own share of idiots as well. I
    >>>guess no group is immune.

    >>
    >>Don't you realize that "Some of them are my best friends." is a
    >>classic racist expression. You must be able to phrase that in a way
    >>that it doesn't come out as such a hackneyed metaphor, sounding as
    >>though you are breaking your arm to pat yourself on the back. It
    >>rings even odder coming from someone who is supporting such a right
    >>wing president who himself bungles such phrases.

    >
    >
    > Thanks for the English lesson, Jobst. Funny though how you "quote me"
    > saying something I didn't even say. Now I understand why you think
    > GWB said things he didn't say either.
    >
    > If it's your contention that saying "some of the nicest people I know
    > happen to be Muslim" is a "hackneyed metaphor", I'd say you're WAY out
    > of touch with reality. Way out of touch.
    >


    Some of the nicest people I know happen to be black.

    Greg

    --
    Destroy your safe and happy lives
    Before it is too late
    The battles we fought were long and hard
    Just not to be consumed by rock'n'roll
     
  4. Kevan Smith

    Kevan Smith Guest

    On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 06:52:12 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email protected]> from
    Habanero Cycles wrote:

    >If it's your contention that saying "some of the nicest people I know
    >happen to be Muslim" is a "hackneyed metaphor", I'd say you're WAY out
    >of touch with reality. Way out of touch.


    Here in the deep south, racism is still a daily issue. I often hear "Some of
    the nicest people I know are black." However, the people saying that often
    don't consider black people nice enough for their homes and churches. I hope
    your attitude is different regarding Muslims, and, I think it is. You just
    happened to use an unfortunate turn of phrase.




    --
    Kevan Smith
    [email protected]
     
  5. Mark Hickey

    Mark Hickey Guest

    Kevan Smith <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Mon, 28 Jun 2004 06:52:12 -0700, Mark Hickey <[email protected]> from
    >Habanero Cycles wrote:
    >
    >>If it's your contention that saying "some of the nicest people I know
    >>happen to be Muslim" is a "hackneyed metaphor", I'd say you're WAY out
    >>of touch with reality. Way out of touch.

    >
    >Here in the deep south, racism is still a daily issue. I often hear "Some of
    >the nicest people I know are black." However, the people saying that often
    >don't consider black people nice enough for their homes and churches. I hope
    >your attitude is different regarding Muslims, and, I think it is. You just
    >happened to use an unfortunate turn of phrase.


    I guess I'm living in a (partially) hopelessly PC world. I personally
    wouldn't feel offended if someone included some group I was in in a
    similar statement...

    .... some of the nicest people I know happen to be bicyclists

    .... some of the nicest people I know happen to be white males

    .... some of the nicest people I know happen to be Christians

    .... some of the nicest people I know happen to be tall, incredibly
    intelligent and good looking suave fellows.

    Errr, three out of four...

    But whatever - I've always been for equal treatment for everyone.
    That made me a liberal 30 years ago, and a conservative now.

    I've hired LOTS of people over the years (not in the bike biz), and I
    can say that if there was a group seriously under-represented, it
    would be white males. Not because I tried to hire minorities and
    women - I just had good applicants who happened to be Muslims, blacks,
    women, (and of course, Chinese... but in China that wasn't worth any
    extra points). Ooops, did I cross another PC boundary? ;-)

    Mark Hickey
    Habanero Cycles
    http://www.habcycles.com
    Home of the $695 ti frame
     
  6. Mark Hickey

    Mark Hickey Guest

    "G.T." <[email protected]> wrote:

    >Mark Hickey wrote:
    >
    >> If it's your contention that saying "some of the nicest people I know
    >> happen to be Muslim" is a "hackneyed metaphor", I'd say you're WAY out
    >> of touch with reality. Way out of touch.

    >
    >Some of the nicest people I know happen to be black.


    Me too.

    If you look at the statement's construction, it's saying (clearly I
    think) that race / religion is not the issue, but the individual's
    character. Isn't that kinda the whole point?

    Mark Hickey
    Habanero Cycles
    http://www.habcycles.com
    Home of the $695 ti frame
     
  7. Top Sirloin

    Top Sirloin Guest

    Mark Hickey wrote:

    > But whatever - I've always been for equal treatment for everyone.
    > That made me a liberal 30 years ago, and a conservative now.


    Forget MLK's dream - to be racially correct now
    you have to consult your handy pocket race % guide
    provided to you by the government and mentally
    compute whether you've provided the appropriate
    number of opportunities to a certain racial group
    based upon their numerical representation in the
    population.

    --
    Scott Johnson / scottjohnson at kc dot rr dot com
     
  8. On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 10:06:12 -0400, Top Sirloin
    <[email protected]> wrote in message
    <[email protected]>:

    >Forget MLK's dream - to be racially correct now
    >you have to consult your handy pocket race % guide
    >provided to you by the government and mentally
    >compute whether you've provided the appropriate
    >number of opportunities to a certain racial group
    >based upon their numerical representation in the
    >population.


    Provided they're not Muslims, obviously...

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University
     
  9. Mark Hickey <[email protected]> writes:

    >>> If it's your contention that saying "some of the nicest people I
    >>> know happen to be Muslim" is a "hackneyed metaphor", I'd say
    >>> you're WAY out of touch with reality. Way out of touch.


    >> Here in the deep south, racism is still a daily issue. I often hear
    >> "Some of the nicest people I know are black." However, the people
    >> saying that often don't consider black people nice enough for their
    >> homes and churches. I hope your attitude is different regarding
    >> Muslims, and, I think it is. You just happened to use an
    >> unfortunate turn of phrase.


    > I guess I'm living in a (partially) hopelessly PC world. I
    > personally wouldn't feel offended if someone included some group I
    > was in in a similar statement...


    > ... some of the nicest people I know happen to be bicyclists


    > ... some of the nicest people I know happen to be white males


    > ... some of the nicest people I know happen to be Christians


    > ... some of the nicest people I know happen to be tall, incredibly
    > intelligent and good looking suave fellows.


    > Errr, three out of four...


    > But whatever - I've always been for equal treatment for everyone.
    > That made me a liberal 30 years ago, and a conservative now.


    > I've hired LOTS of people over the years (not in the bike biz), and
    > I can say that if there was a group seriously under-represented, it
    > would be white males. Not because I tried to hire minorities and
    > women - I just had good applicants who happened to be Muslims,
    > blacks, women, (and of course, Chinese... but in China that wasn't
    > worth any extra points). Ooops, did I cross another PC boundary?
    > ;-)


    Please don't stop there, just say it. Some of them ARE my best friends.
    It's the tone that makes the music, not the notes themselves.

    Jobst Brandt
    [email protected]
     
  10. Top Sirloin

    Top Sirloin Guest

    Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
    > On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 10:06:12 -0400, Top Sirloin
    > <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > <[email protected]>:
    >
    >
    >>Forget MLK's dream - to be racially correct now
    >>you have to consult your handy pocket race % guide
    >>provided to you by the government and mentally
    >>compute whether you've provided the appropriate
    >>number of opportunities to a certain racial group
    >>based upon their numerical representation in the
    >>population.

    >
    >
    > Provided they're not Muslims, obviously...


    Islam is a religion, not a racial group.

    --
    Scott Johnson / scottjohnson at kc dot rr dot com
     
  11. On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 14:29:45 -0400, Top Sirloin
    <[email protected]> wrote in message
    <[email protected]>:

    >>>Forget MLK's dream - to be racially correct now
    >>>you have to consult your handy pocket race % guide
    >>>provided to you by the government and mentally
    >>>compute whether you've provided the appropriate
    >>>number of opportunities to a certain racial group
    >>>based upon their numerical representation in the
    >>>population.


    >> Provided they're not Muslims, obviously...


    >Islam is a religion, not a racial group.


    And the proportion of white Muslims is? Seems to me like faith has
    become a backdoor by which race discrimination can be sneaked in.

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University
     
  12. Kevan Smith

    Kevan Smith Guest

    On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 20:35:15 +0100, "Just zis Guy, you know?"
    <[email protected]> from Disorganised wrote:

    >On Tue, 29 Jun 2004 14:29:45 -0400, Top Sirloin
    ><[email protected]> wrote in message
    ><[email protected]>:
    >
    >>>>Forget MLK's dream - to be racially correct now
    >>>>you have to consult your handy pocket race % guide
    >>>>provided to you by the government and mentally
    >>>>compute whether you've provided the appropriate
    >>>>number of opportunities to a certain racial group
    >>>>based upon their numerical representation in the
    >>>>population.

    >
    >>> Provided they're not Muslims, obviously...

    >
    >>Islam is a religion, not a racial group.

    >
    >And the proportion of white Muslims is?


    Would Aryans do? Where are Aryans from?



    --
    Kevan Smith
    [email protected]
     
  13. Top Sirloin

    Top Sirloin Guest

    Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:

    > And the proportion of white Muslims is? Seems to me like faith has
    > become a backdoor by which race discrimination can be sneaked in.


    There aren't a lot of adherents to Shinto that are
    white either. I'm not sure what your point is.

    If you implying that we shouldn't profile people
    based on their religion or race, you're dead
    wrong. We only have so many law enforcement
    resources and it's stupid not to go with the
    numbers if you have no other information. Looking
    for a serial killer? Chances are it's a middle
    aged white male. Looking for a terrorist? Chances
    are it's a muslim, regardless of their race.

    My point is that somewhere along the line racial
    equality went from judging people by the content
    of their character instead of their skin color and
    external racial features to a inherent _racist_
    quota system.

    --
    Scott Johnson / scottjohnson at kc dot rr dot com
     
  14. tcmedara

    tcmedara Guest

    [email protected] wrote:
    > Mark Hickey <[email protected]> writes:
    >
    >>>> If it's your contention that saying "some of the nicest people I
    >>>> know happen to be Muslim" is a "hackneyed metaphor", I'd say
    >>>> you're WAY out of touch with reality. Way out of touch.

    >
    >>> Here in the deep south, racism is still a daily issue. I often hear
    >>> "Some of the nicest people I know are black." However, the people
    >>> saying that often don't consider black people nice enough for their
    >>> homes and churches. I hope your attitude is different regarding
    >>> Muslims, and, I think it is. You just happened to use an
    >>> unfortunate turn of phrase.

    >
    >> I guess I'm living in a (partially) hopelessly PC world. I
    >> personally wouldn't feel offended if someone included some group I
    >> was in in a similar statement...

    >
    >> ... some of the nicest people I know happen to be bicyclists

    >
    >> ... some of the nicest people I know happen to be white males

    >
    >> ... some of the nicest people I know happen to be Christians

    >
    >> ... some of the nicest people I know happen to be tall, incredibly
    >> intelligent and good looking suave fellows.

    >
    >> Errr, three out of four...

    >
    >> But whatever - I've always been for equal treatment for everyone.
    >> That made me a liberal 30 years ago, and a conservative now.

    >
    >> I've hired LOTS of people over the years (not in the bike biz), and
    >> I can say that if there was a group seriously under-represented, it
    >> would be white males. Not because I tried to hire minorities and
    >> women - I just had good applicants who happened to be Muslims,
    >> blacks, women, (and of course, Chinese... but in China that wasn't
    >> worth any extra points). Ooops, did I cross another PC boundary?
    >> ;-)

    >
    > Please don't stop there, just say it. Some of them ARE my best
    > friends. It's the tone that makes the music, not the notes themselves.
    >

    So it's not what he says, it's what you hear? Is that what you're saying?
    It's not what he does, it's what you want to label him as? You absolutely
    ignore what the man said and then label him a racist through some weak,
    thinly veiled metaphor. What you imply is that actions are irrelevent, but
    as long as you conform tot he current PC terminolgy you can maintain your
    credentials.

    Pretty weak, and very sad.

    Tom
     
  15. Mark Hickey

    Mark Hickey Guest

    [email protected] wrote:

    >Mark Hickey <[email protected]> writes:
    >
    >>>> If it's your contention that saying "some of the nicest people I
    >>>> know happen to be Muslim" is a "hackneyed metaphor", I'd say
    >>>> you're WAY out of touch with reality. Way out of touch.

    >
    >>> Here in the deep south, racism is still a daily issue. I often hear
    >>> "Some of the nicest people I know are black." However, the people
    >>> saying that often don't consider black people nice enough for their
    >>> homes and churches. I hope your attitude is different regarding
    >>> Muslims, and, I think it is. You just happened to use an
    >>> unfortunate turn of phrase.

    >
    >> I guess I'm living in a (partially) hopelessly PC world. I
    >> personally wouldn't feel offended if someone included some group I
    >> was in in a similar statement...

    >
    >> ... some of the nicest people I know happen to be bicyclists

    >
    >> ... some of the nicest people I know happen to be white males

    >
    >> ... some of the nicest people I know happen to be Christians

    >
    >> ... some of the nicest people I know happen to be tall, incredibly
    >> intelligent and good looking suave fellows.

    >
    >> Errr, three out of four...

    >
    >> But whatever - I've always been for equal treatment for everyone.
    >> That made me a liberal 30 years ago, and a conservative now.

    >
    >> I've hired LOTS of people over the years (not in the bike biz), and
    >> I can say that if there was a group seriously under-represented, it
    >> would be white males. Not because I tried to hire minorities and
    >> women - I just had good applicants who happened to be Muslims,
    >> blacks, women, (and of course, Chinese... but in China that wasn't
    >> worth any extra points). Ooops, did I cross another PC boundary?
    >> ;-)

    >
    >Please don't stop there, just say it. Some of them ARE my best friends.
    >It's the tone that makes the music, not the notes themselves.


    Is this one of your new knee-jerk phrases or something? Sorry if
    pointing out that race is irrelevant to a person's worth offends you.

    I mean, it's not like I was denigrating anyone with a southern accent
    or anything... that happened on this very newsgroup not long ago
    actually. The writer of the several posts ranted on about how he knew
    exactly what all the "rednecks" were thinking and making all sorts of
    invalid generalizations.

    Perhaps you caught that - it must have bothered you deeply.

    Mark Hickey
    Habanero Cycles
    http://www.habcycles.com
    Home of the $695 ti frame
     
  16. Raoul Duke

    Raoul Duke Guest

  17. On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 00:58:54 GMT, Top Sirloin
    <[email protected]> wrote in message
    <[email protected]>:

    >> And the proportion of white Muslims is? Seems to me like faith has
    >> become a backdoor by which race discrimination can be sneaked in.


    >There aren't a lot of adherents to Shinto that are
    > white either. I'm not sure what your point is.


    As stated: it seems to me that religion is a backdoor by which race
    discrimination can be sneaked in.

    >If you implying that we shouldn't profile people
    >based on their religion or race


    Nope. But there's a difference between the overt anti-muslim
    statements made by quite a lot of poeple and the simple question of
    saying "the suspect is of Arab appearance" which is merely
    descriptive.

    >My point is that somewhere along the line racial
    >equality went from judging people by the content
    >of their character instead of their skin color and
    >external racial features to a inherent _racist_
    >quota system.


    And I think that there is a lot of work to do before most developed
    countries get anywhere close to being non-racist. I can't claim to be
    a fan of affirmative action, but at the Government level it makes good
    sense to at least count and see how well your staff reflects the
    racial mix of your area, because if it doesn't then you may have some
    searching questions to answer. How will you know if your hiring
    managers are pursuin unconsciously racist hiring agendas if you don't
    at least count the heads?

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University
     
  18. Top Sirloin wrote:

    > If you implying that we shouldn't profile people based on their
    > religion or race, you're dead wrong. We only have so many law
    > enforcement resources and it's stupid not to go with the numbers if
    > you have no other information. Looking for a serial killer? Chances
    > are it's a middle aged white male. Looking for a terrorist? Chances
    > are it's a muslim, regardless of their race.


    British police had very similar thoughts on the matter in the 70s and
    80s. An awful lot of people arrested and even jailed, their only crime
    being "Irish and in the wrong place at the wrong time".

    I don't have any numbers, of course, but it subjectively it seems to me
    that if you're looking for a terrorist in the USA, chances are that he's
    a white Christian American, possibly with strong opinions about
    abortion, blacks, and/or guns.

    --
    Keith Willoughby http://flat222.org/keith/
    "A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives."
    - Jackie Robinson
     
  19. Top Sirloin

    Top Sirloin Guest

    Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:

    <snip good post>

    > And I think that there is a lot of work to do before most developed
    > countries get anywhere close to being non-racist. I can't claim to be
    > a fan of affirmative action, but at the Government level it makes good
    > sense to at least count and see how well your staff reflects the
    > racial mix of your area, because if it doesn't then you may have some
    > searching questions to answer. How will you know if your hiring
    > managers are pursuin unconsciously racist hiring agendas if you don't
    > at least count the heads?


    Instead of assuming my HR people are racist, I'd
    look at the community and say "Why aren't we
    getting people of X ethnic group that are able to
    compete in the workforce?". IMHO the problem is
    more likely to be rooted in the educational system
    or community rather than the result of unconscious
    racist hiring agendas.

    It's unamerican to force businesses to not hire
    the best person for the job, just as it's
    unamerican to not provide everyone with the
    opportunity to get a good education.

    I'm done on this thread. :)

    --
    Scott Johnson / scottjohnson at kc dot rr dot com
     
  20. On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 08:30:27 -0400, Top Sirloin
    <[email protected]> wrote in message
    <[email protected]>:

    >Instead of assuming my HR people are racist, I'd
    >look at the community and say "Why aren't we
    >getting people of X ethnic group that are able to
    >compete in the workforce?". IMHO the problem is
    >more likely to be rooted in the educational system
    >or community rather than the result of unconscious
    >racist hiring agendas.


    But HR managers are not jiring managers. Hiring managers are just
    ordinary people, often with no specific skills. Difficulty with
    accents can be enough to kill an application.

    >It's unamerican to force businesses to not hire
    >the best person for the job


    Heh! Where "best" is defined as "son of the senator", right? ;-)

    Guy
    --
    May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
    http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

    88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University
     
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