Re: Iron chelation in Alzheimer's disease

Discussion in 'Food and nutrition' started by Marci, Mar 19, 2006.

  1. Marci

    Marci Guest

    My mom had chelation and now has AD, I'm not convinced the chelation
    was any good.
     
    Tags:


  2. >>My mom had chelation and now has AD, I'm not convinced the chelation
    was any good.<<

    Did she have .. iron .. chelation .. ?

    Most people go after OTHER metals .. and the chelation practitioners I
    have spoken to .. REPLACE .. the iron which they believe they have
    mistakenly .. removed ..

    Now it is a matter of whether they went after the .. iron .. ?

    Who loves ya.
    Tom


    Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
    http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com


    Man Is A Herbivore!
    http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore


    DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
    http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking
     
  3. Alan Meyer

    Alan Meyer Guest

    [email protected] wrote:
    > ...
    > Most people go after OTHER metals .. and the chelation practitioners I
    > have spoken to .. REPLACE .. the iron which they believe they have
    > mistakenly .. removed ..
    > ...


    I've responded to your postings over in the alt.support.cancer.prostate
    group.

    I'll add here that the alternative medicine practitioners I've met
    know about as much about blood chemistry, cell biology and
    physiology as the hamsters in the study you cited above.

    Most of them wouldn't have any idea whether people have too much
    or too little of some metal in their bodies, don't have any capability
    to perform medical tests to find out, and are completely clueless
    when it comes to understanding the role of metals in body
    chemistry.

    The ones I've met perform "chelation" by doing something
    that someone (often a quack) told them to do. They don't
    know if the procedure they performed actually did anything
    or not, and have no way of finding out.

    Iron, for example, is a required nutrient. It is a vital element in
    hemoglobin and in oxidative phosphorylation of ADP. Without
    it, people will die. The same is true of magnesium, calcium,
    copper, cobalt, molybdenum, zinc, and some other metals.

    What sense does it make to cut back one's iron intake or to
    undergo iron chelation without at least knowing if you have
    too much of it in your body?

    Alan
     
  4. Evelyn Ruut

    Evelyn Ruut Guest

    "Alan Meyer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > [email protected] wrote:
    >> ...
    >> Most people go after OTHER metals .. and the chelation practitioners I
    >> have spoken to .. REPLACE .. the iron which they believe they have
    >> mistakenly .. removed ..
    >> ...

    >
    > I've responded to your postings over in the alt.support.cancer.prostate
    > group.
    >
    > I'll add here that the alternative medicine practitioners I've met
    > know about as much about blood chemistry, cell biology and
    > physiology as the hamsters in the study you cited above.
    >
    > Most of them wouldn't have any idea whether people have too much
    > or too little of some metal in their bodies, don't have any capability
    > to perform medical tests to find out, and are completely clueless
    > when it comes to understanding the role of metals in body
    > chemistry.
    >
    > The ones I've met perform "chelation" by doing something
    > that someone (often a quack) told them to do. They don't
    > know if the procedure they performed actually did anything
    > or not, and have no way of finding out.
    >
    > Iron, for example, is a required nutrient. It is a vital element in
    > hemoglobin and in oxidative phosphorylation of ADP. Without
    > it, people will die. The same is true of magnesium, calcium,
    > copper, cobalt, molybdenum, zinc, and some other metals.
    >
    > What sense does it make to cut back one's iron intake or to
    > undergo iron chelation without at least knowing if you have
    > too much of it in your body?
    >
    > Alan




    That's our iron troll.
    He is just a wacko who trolls all the newsgroups having anything to do with
    health.

    I heard that for many years iron deficiency was very rare because people
    used iron frying pans.

    --

    Best Regards,

    Evelyn
    (to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')
     
  5. Alan Meyer

    Alan Meyer Guest

    "Evelyn Ruut" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > ...
    > That's our iron troll.
    > He is just a wacko who trolls all the newsgroups having anything to do with health.


    I'm a sucker for all kinds of trolls.

    My wife used to pull me away from the front door when she found me
    in deep discussion with crackpots, missionaries, traveling salesmen,
    or anyone else with a spiel and a tin cup.

    I should have learned my lesson but I'm incorrigible.

    > I heard that for many years iron deficiency was very rare because people used iron
    > frying pans.


    I've heard that too, though nowadays I think it would be teflon
    deficiency that is very rare.

    Regards,

    Alan
     
  6. >>What sense does it make to cut back one's iron intake or to
    undergo iron chelation without at least knowing if you have
    too much of it in your body? <<

    Your body stores seven months worth of iron and then ATTEMPTS to
    downregulate the absorption of iron to just .. top up .. the seven
    months worth of iron.

    This process is unsatisfactory. The body .. as studies .. show ..
    CANNOT .. control the absorption of .. meat / blood iron and this iron
    bypasses the .. control .. and .. "tends to accumulate in the body" ..

    So as long as you have eaten meat .. the body has stored this iron away
    ...

    You therefore KNOW you have elevated iron levels ..

    It is IMPOSSIBLE .. not to ..

    Simple facts ..

    Who loves ya.
    Tom


    Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
    http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com


    Man Is A Herbivore!
    http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore


    DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
    http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking
     
  7. Evelyn Ruut

    Evelyn Ruut Guest

    "Alan Meyer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > "Evelyn Ruut" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >>
    >> ...
    >> That's our iron troll.
    >> He is just a wacko who trolls all the newsgroups having anything to do
    >> with health.

    >
    > I'm a sucker for all kinds of trolls.
    >
    > My wife used to pull me away from the front door when she found me
    > in deep discussion with crackpots, missionaries, traveling salesmen,
    > or anyone else with a spiel and a tin cup.
    >
    > I should have learned my lesson but I'm incorrigible.


    LOL.... I have often done the same....:)


    >> I heard that for many years iron deficiency was very rare because people
    >> used iron frying pans.

    >
    > I've heard that too, though nowadays I think it would be teflon
    > deficiency that is very rare.


    LOL!

    Would you believe that people who use induction cooking ranges are now
    looking for old iron frying pans?

    Apparently induction only works with ferrous metals, and cast iron conducts
    the best and cooks the best. I had a collection of them, all the sizes.
    Had scoured flea markets for years till I got a whole set of Griswolds with
    the large logo on the back. The newer ones won't do, they aren't smooth
    enough and seasoning them takes forever.

    Anyway I shipped half the collection off to my daughter who just put in an
    induction cooktop in her gorgeous new ultramodern kitchen.

    Our pesky iron troll ought to go into a frenzy hearing this.....

    --

    Best Regards,

    Evelyn
    (to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')
     
  8. i
    >
    > Your body stores seven months worth of iron and then ATTEMPTS to
    > downregulate the absorption of iron to just .. top up .. the seven
    > months worth of iron.



    Tom and everyone,
    There is a condition called hemachromatosis, too much iron in the
    blood. Usually due to a sick liver. People shouldn't need chelation
    1) if they have normal iron levels, 2) if they have normal LFT's, 3) if
    they are asymtomatic. My mom had to go to Ottawa for her chelation as
    there are no reputable MD's in NNY that would do it. That tells me
    alot! I believe SOME holistic med may work, but in todays market, they
    are full of fillers and not much of the effective substance. The good
    old 'snake oil' cart is what comes to my mind.
    Sorry.
     
  9. >>The good
    old 'snake oil' cart is what comes to my mind.
    Sorry.<<

    Soooooo .. the whole .. gist of your .. 'comments' .. IS .. "I don't
    believe in it .. " ..

    That is very good and very .. helpful ..

    Next time stay off the thread unless you have a more .. current ..
    article ..

    OK .. ?

    Great ..

    Who loves ya.
    Tom


    Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
    http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com


    Man Is A Herbivore!
    http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore


    DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
    http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking
     
  10. Alan Meyer

    Alan Meyer Guest

    <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > Next time stay off the thread unless you have a more .. current ..
    > article ..
    >
    > OK .. ?
    >
    > Great ..
    >
    > Who loves ya.
    > Tom
    >
    >
    > Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
    > http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com


    Don't start throwing stones Tom. I don't know what Jesus
    ate, but I know what he said about throwing stones.

    You've made some statements that I'd question too.
    For example:

    "Your body stores seven months worth of iron and then ATTEMPTS to
    downregulate the absorption of iron to just .. top up .. the seven
    months worth of iron."

    Can you give me the source for that? And even if true, how
    does it signify that a person gets too much iron?

    We know for example that very small blood losses can result in
    iron deficiency anemia.

    [Sorry Evelyn. Somebody pull me away from this door. :)]

    Alan
     
  11. Evelyn Ruut

    Evelyn Ruut Guest

    "Alan Meyer" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    >
    > <[email protected]> wrote in message
    > news:[email protected]
    >>
    >> Next time stay off the thread unless you have a more .. current ..
    >> article ..
    >>
    >> OK .. ?
    >>
    >> Great ..
    >>
    >> Who loves ya.
    >> Tom
    >>
    >>
    >> Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
    >> http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

    >
    > Don't start throwing stones Tom. I don't know what Jesus
    > ate, but I know what he said about throwing stones.
    >
    > You've made some statements that I'd question too.
    > For example:
    >
    > "Your body stores seven months worth of iron and then ATTEMPTS to
    > downregulate the absorption of iron to just .. top up .. the seven
    > months worth of iron."
    >
    > Can you give me the source for that? And even if true, how
    > does it signify that a person gets too much iron?
    >
    > We know for example that very small blood losses can result in
    > iron deficiency anemia.
    >
    > [Sorry Evelyn. Somebody pull me away from this door. :)]
    >
    > Alan



    I know, I know.... sometimes it is just too tempting.

    --

    Best Regards,

    Evelyn
    (to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')

    >
    >
     
  12. Max C.

    Max C. Guest

    As much fun as it is, Alan, you're wasting your time on this one. I've
    asked Tom to support his claims more than once, and never once has he
    done so.

    Max.
     
  13. Evelyn Ruut

    Evelyn Ruut Guest

    "Max C." <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > As much fun as it is, Alan, you're wasting your time on this one. I've
    > asked Tom to support his claims more than once, and never once has he
    > done so.
    >
    > Max.




    Because he can't. He's a certifiable wacko who lives in my killfile, and I
    will warrant many other people have him in theirs too.

    --

    Best Regards,

    Evelyn
    (to reply to me personally, remove 'sox')
     
  14. Bud

    Bud Guest


    >
    >Because he can't. He's a certifiable wacko who lives in my killfile, and I
    >will warrant many other people have him in theirs too.
    >
    >
    >

    Yep. :)
     
  15. On 21 Mar 2006 17:44:36 -0800, "Alan Meyer" <[email protected]> wrote:

    >What sense does it make to cut back one's iron intake or to
    >undergo iron chelation without at least knowing if you have
    >too much of it in your body?


    ironjustice think that the presence of only a single atom of iron in
    total in body is one far too much.

    He reminds me about a folklore tale in Norway about the farmer who
    ride to place in forest to find some more wood for winter and put one
    piece of wood on the sleigh, murmuring, "if you managed the previous,
    you'll take the next". When the sleigh was overfilled and no more wood
    left, he started, but the horse was not able to move the sleigh at
    all.

    Then he started to throw away one piece after the other, murmuring for
    each piece of wood, if you didn't managed to move the previous,
    neither would you manage to take this one" and then emptied the whole
    sleigh completely and took the horse home, extremely furious. (Story
    says nothing about the fate afterwards of the horse)
     
  16. On 22 Mar 2006 03:08:55 -0800, "[email protected]"
    <ironjustice[email protected]> wrote:

    >This process is unsatisfactory. The body .. as studies .. show ..
    >CANNOT .. control the absorption of .. meat / blood iron and this iron
    >bypasses the .. control .. and .. "tends to accumulate in the body" ..
    >
    >So as long as you have eaten meat .. the body has stored this iron away


    Not everyone has that disease of haemochromatosis.
    Most don't have it.
     
  17. >>"Your body stores seven months worth of iron and then ATTEMPTS to
    downregulate the absorption of iron to just .. top up .. the seven
    months worth of iron."


    Can you give me the source for that?

    http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/72/4/982

    >>And even if true, how

    does it signify that a person gets too much iron? <<

    They have NO 'standard' that has shown .. reliability ..

    They have used the 'standards' .. and have given people iron until it
    killed them ..

    Soooooo .. one has to logically assume the iron is .. there .. DUE TO
    the FACT you KNOW you ate meat and you KNOW it was uncontrolled ...

    Plus the fact soooo .. mannnnyyyyy .. researchers are beginning to talk
    about the iron in the brain .. KNOWN to be there by MRI ..


    Who loves ya.
    Tom


    Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
    http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com


    Man Is A Herbivore!
    http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore


    DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
    http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking
     
  18. >>Not everyone has that disease of haemochromatosis.
    Most don't have it. <<

    Well unless you have CONTRADICTING studies that support YOUR stance ..
    then one must go with the studies which seem to NOT .. support .. your
    ... stupidity ..

    Most DO have it ..

    In this study of .. elderly .. anyhow ..


    <<snip>>
    The likely liability in iron nutriture in
    free-living, elderly white Americans eating a Western diet is HIGH
    iron stores, NOT iron deficiency
    <<snip>>


    Am J Clin Nutr 2001 Mar;73(3):638-46


    Iron status of the free-living, elderly Framingham Heart Study cohort:
    an
    iron-replete population with a high prevalence of elevated iron stores.



    Fleming DJ, Jacques PF, Tucker KL, Massaro JM, D'Agostino RB Sr, Wilson
    PW,
    Wood RJ


    Mineral Bioavailability Laboratory and the Epidemiology Program, Jean
    Mayer-US Department of Agriculture Human Nutrition Research Center on
    Aging at Tufts University, Boston, MA, USA.


    BACKGROUND: Although iron deficiency occurs commonly in vulnerable
    groups of women of reproductive age, infants, and children, less is
    known about the iron nutriture of the elderly. OBJECTIVE: Our
    objective was to evaluate the iron status of a noninstitutionalized,
    elderly US population, with a particular focus on 2 concerns unique to
    the elderly: 1) potential confounding effects of chronic disease on
    iron measures and 2) increased occurrence of elevated iron stores.
    DESIGN: Multiple iron measures, including serum ferritin (SF),
    transferrin saturation, mean cell volume, and hemoglobin, were used to
    evaluate the prevalence of iron deficiency (ID), iron deficiency
    anemia (IDA), and other measures of iron nutriture in 1016 elderly
    white Americans aged 67-96 y from the Framingham Heart Study.
    "Diseased" subjects were defined as those with possible pathologically
    altered iron measures due to inflammation, infection, elevated liver
    enzymes, hereditary hemochromatosis, or cancer. The effect of altered
    iron status on various prevalence estimates was assessed. RESULTS: The
    elderly subjects had a low prevalence of ID (2.7%), IDA (1.2%), and
    depleted iron stores (3%; SF < 12 microg/L). In contrast, 12.9% had
    elevated iron stores (SF > 300 microg/L in men and SF > 200 microg/L
    in women), of which only 1% was attributable to chronic disease. The
    prevalence of ID, IDA, and depleted iron stores was unaffected by the
    presence of chronic disease. CONCLUSIONS: The Framingham Heart Study
    cohort is an iron-replete elderly population with a high prevalence of
    elevated iron stores in contrast with a low prevalence of iron
    deficiency, with insignificant effects of chronic disease on these
    iron status estimates. The likely liability in iron nutriture in
    free-living, elderly white Americans eating a Western diet is high
    iron stores, not iron deficiency.


    PMID: 11237943, UI: 21133919
    __________________________________


    Who loves ya.
    Tom

    Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
    http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com

    Man Is A Herbivore!
    http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore

    DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
    http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking
     
  19. On 22 Mar 2006 17:53:36 -0800, "[email protected]"
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >depleted iron stores (3%; SF < 12 microg/L). In contrast, 12.9% had
    >elevated iron stores (SF > 300 microg/L in men and SF > 200 microg/L


    12 % is the most of them??

    My god.

    Is really 12% a majority of that group??

    What about the 85% that was seemingly normal here?
    Is that a minority group?
     
  20. >>high prevalence of
    elevated iron stores<<

    The marker .. is ..300/200 for iron stores .. considered .. 'normal' ..

    Fine .. you and the rest of the dckhds can figure .. 200/300 .. to be
    ... normal .. and I will continue to believe .. 40 to be .. normal ..

    The marker found in a common everyday vegetarian ..

    The marker found in a common everyday meat eater is 72 .. and when
    lowered to the marker found in a vegetarian .. they have a forty
    percent drop in insulin resistance ..

    Now unless you have ANOTHER .. reason .. WHY the meat eaters would have
    a forty percent drop in insulin resistance BY simple lowering of iron
    levels .. then I will assume this .. decrease in insulin resistence is
    DUE TO iron reduction ..

    Insulin resistance is pre-diabetes / metabolic syndrome ..

    Vegetarian - 35
    Meat eaters - 72

    <<snip>>lacto-ovo vegetarians had lower body Fe stores, as indicated by
    a serum
    ferritin concentration (microg/l) of 35 (95 % CI 21, 49) compared with
    72 (95 %
    CI 45, 100) for meat-eaters<<snip>>


    Br J Nutr 2001 Oct;86(4):515-9


    Low iron status and enhanced insulin sensitivity in lacto-ovo
    vegetarians.


    Hua NW, Stoohs RA, Facchini FS
    Department of Medicine, Division of Nephrology, San Francisco General
    Hospital,
    San Francisco, CA, USA.


    The efficacy of insulin in stimulating whole-body glucose disposal
    (insulin
    sensitivity) was quantified using direct methodology in thirty
    lacto-ovo
    vegetarians and in thirty meat-eaters. All subjects were adult, lean
    (BMI <23
    kg/m2), healthy and glucose tolerant. Lacto-ovo vegetarians were more
    insulin
    sensitive than meat-eaters, with a steady-state plasma glucose (mmol/l)
    of 4.1
    (95 % CI 3.5, 5.0) v. 6.9 (95 % CI 5.2, 7.5; respectively. In addition,

    lacto-ovo vegetarians had lower lacto-ovo vegetarians had lower body Fe
    stores,
    as indicated by a serum ferritin concentration (microg/l) of 35 (95 %
    CI 21,
    49) compared with 72 (95 % CI 45, 100) for meat-eaters To test whether
    or not
    Fe status might modulate insulin sensitivity, body Fe was lowered by
    phlebotomy
    in six male meat-eaters to levels similar to that seen in vegetarians,
    with a
    resultant approximately 40 % enhancement of insulin-mediated glucose
    disposal
    Our results demonstrate that lacto-ovo vegetarians are more insulin
    sensitive
    and have lower Fe stores than meat-eaters. In addition, it seems that
    reduced
    insulin sensitivity in meat-eaters is amenable to improvement by
    reducing body
    Fe. The latter finding is in agreement with results from animal studies
    where,
    no matter how induced, Fe depletion consistently enhanced glucose
    disposal.


    PMID: 11591239, UI: 21475355


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------



    And the FACT there is POSITIVE .. recovery .. BY .. lowering of iron
    levels .. MEANS .. cause and effect ..

    The iron levels .. the iron levels found WELL WITHIN .. your / and
    others .. 'safe' .. parameters .. 200/300 .. actually seems to be ..
    dangerous .. unless you and your braindeadcohorts believe insulin
    resistance to be .. good ..

    Who loves ya.
    Tom


    Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
    http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com


    Man Is A Herbivore!
    http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore


    DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
    http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking
     
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