Re: Light Weight, Long Distance, Durable Road Wheels - Recommendations?

[David L. Johnson]

On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 22:27:35 -0500, Steve Sr. wrote:

> After digging through the last year and a half of news group posts
> regarding wheels I still haven't found a consensus for a good durable
> wheel set. It appears that there is a bias against "boutique" wheels
> for this purpose

Yes, but at least part of that is a price/performance issue. They cost
several times what good handbuilt wheels cost, but don't work any better.
In addition, they do cause trouble if anything goes wrong on the
road. If the wheel is not field-servicable, there is nothing you can
do if you crash and taco a wheel, or break a spoke. With a handbuilt
wheel and a spoke wrench, you can usually get home. I also think they
have reliability issues, since the hubs tend not to be as reliable as
name-brand hubs are.

> I am looking for a set of road wheels for long distance group riding not
> racing. I weigh 160 pounds which might make the choice easier.

Sure, it would. Your demands on the wheel are less severe than for
someone 200 lbs.
>
> I want the hubs to be of high quality with no maintenance sealed
> cartridge bearings.

I'd argue against that, but there is room for debate on this issue. I
think cup&cone bearings are still not surpassed for wheels. Cartridge
bearings do not have that much longer a service life, and are more costly
and difficult to replace when needed, compared with good cup and cone
bearings.

> So which components / wheels would you recommend?

If you want to maximize strength, then I would recommend a v-shaped rim
like Velocity deep-V or Mavic CXP-33 (or so -- I have some with different
numbers, but essentially the same rim). If you really want to go for
durability, then 36 spokes as well, though I do fine with 32. Get
double-butted spokes. I prefer 14-15-14 rather than the 15-16-15 variety,
but either are better than straight gauge.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Some people used to claim that, if enough monkeys sat in front
_`\(,_ | of enough typewriters and typed long enough, eventually one of
(_)/ (_) | them would reproduce the collected works of Shakespeare. The
internet has proven this not to be the case.

 

[Phil, Squid-in-Training]

> I'd argue against that, but there is room for debate on this issue. I
> think cup&cone bearings are still not surpassed for wheels. Cartridge
> bearings do not have that much longer a service life, and are more
> costly and difficult to replace when needed, compared with good cup
> and cone bearings.

I would say this is generally true, but one can always find the cartridge
bearings themselves at any bearing shop in any decently-sized town. Cones
are a little harder to find at a moment's notice, since some shops don't
always stock the exact part. It can be hard to find especially if one has a
not-so-easily found cone size, especially on a no-name cheaper hub. Yes, a
whole bunch of cones are exchangeable, but if seals/dust caps aren't in the
right place, one may be cutting his legs off by buying a slightly smaller
cone that can allow water in and let grease out. The cartridge bearing,
however, will always have the correct part (given no user error).

Having said that, I would still choose cup/cone and buy several cones at
once. I hate impact tools and pressing cartridge bearings back out. Plus,
cup/cone is just as smooth as cartridge if adjusted with some extra TLC.
Cartridge bearings can be a PITA to adjust if the adjustment thread pitch is
too steep, or if the set screw goes loose (use loctite).

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

 

[rkoreis]

"David L. Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news[email protected]...
> On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 22:27:35 -0500, Steve Sr. wrote:

> If you want to maximize strength, then I would recommend a v-shaped rim
> like Velocity deep-V or Mavic CXP-33 (or so -- I have some with different
> numbers, but essentially the same rim). If you really want to go for
> durability, then 36 spokes as well, though I do fine with 32. Get
> double-butted spokes. I prefer 14-15-14 rather than the 15-16-15 variety,
> but either are better than straight gauge.

I'll second most of what you said, especially regarding boutique v. LBS
built wheels. As for maximizing strength, I've got a pair of 32h CXP-33
rims laced with double butted spokes for my commuter, but I'm 200lbs. plus
whatever I'm carrying. The wheels have been absolutely bulletproof. But
for someone who is 160 lbs., a good box rim will work well and be much
lighter. There are any number of quality choices available.

Steve, if you have some time, try building them yourself. I'm a mechanical
idiot, yet I've built my last three sets of wheels, with some help and
advice from my LBS.

Get an old wheel, take it apart, and put it back together. You'll want a
truing stand if you don't already have one. Sheldon has a good page on
wheel building: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html
When you've got it built up with the tension about where you think it should
be, go back to the LBS and have them check it with a tensiometer. Aside
from the $ you save, there is the satisfaction of doing it yourself and the
confidence that you can fix problems out on the road.

Bob Koreis

 

[Phil, Squid-in-Training]

> admittedly, i'm yet to put my money where my mouth is on this, but
> having just stripped & repacked my cup/cone bearing hubs for the
> /second/ time this winter because of rain rides washing excessive grit
> into the drive side bearing, i'm inclined to say that a sealed bearing
> solution is the best way to go. they are always cheaply
> available/replacable, and at a full retail price of $300, a pair of
> mavic cosmos wheels compare favorably with handbuilt wheels. the rim
> is the same as the open pro, a known reliable rim, the spokes, while
> lower in count, are slightly thicker to compensate and are straight
> pull which eliminates elbow fatigue.
>
> in fact, i'm getting out the plastic right now - i hate messing about
> with freehubs when they're full of grit.

The issue I have never understood about Shimano road hubs is that they don't
have a rubber contact seal on the bearings. I have done many wet rides on a
basic front Deore hub and was surprised to see Shimano's grease a bright
neon even after those many many wet, gritty miles. The fact that the wheel
spins more freely with the labyrith rubber seals attests to the fact that
grease fills the voids between the hub and the rubber parts, keeping out mud
and grit effectively.

If I were ever to build up another set of road wheels for myself, I would no
doubt build them with mountain hubs, fix the spacing, and change the axle if
necessary.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

 

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <[email protected]>,
"David L. Johnson" <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 22:27:35 -0500, Steve Sr. wrote:
>
> > After digging through the last year and a half of news group posts
> > regarding wheels I still haven't found a consensus for a good durable
> > wheel set. It appears that there is a bias against "boutique" wheels
> > for this purpose
>
> Yes, but at least part of that is a price/performance issue. They cost
> several times what good handbuilt wheels cost, but don't work any better.
> In addition, they do cause trouble if anything goes wrong on the
> road. If the wheel is not field-servicable, there is nothing you can
> do if you crash and taco a wheel, or break a spoke. With a handbuilt
> wheel and a spoke wrench, you can usually get home. I also think they
> have reliability issues, since the hubs tend not to be as reliable as
> name-brand hubs are.

I knew I wanted to post on this...

I was in a race a few weeks ago in which I hit the ground and a rider
behind me used my front wheel as a launch ramp. End result: one of my 18
radially laced, bladed aero spokes in the front wheel took a major load,
and became completely loose. The spokes were painted black, and this one
loose spoke now has a place where the paint is completely rubbed off,
though there were no gouges in the spoke.

Okay, so I got up from the ground, and now my front wheel won't pass the
brakes without touching. By opening the brake release, I can clear the
brakes, but the front brake's effectiveness is reduced. I decide to
abandon. I am not carrying any tools (I never do during a race).

On the slow ride back to the car, the wheel works well enough. This is
on fairly flat terrain, so the brakes are not being stressed. But I
could basically ride like this indefinitely, though not at full pace.

After I get the bike home, I true up the wheel. A few minutes with the
spoke wrench brings the wheel back to normal.

Lessons learned:
-With an appropriately strong rim, 18 spokes will not cause inordinate
trouble, even when one goes away.
-It's still more trouble than a normal wheel, which would have shown
much less wobble after the loss of one spoke
-If I had had a spoke wrench on the race course, I am confident I could
have returned the wheel to serviceable trueness in a few minutes.

Conclusions:
-high spoke counts have much to recommend them
-if you have 18 spokes in your front wheel, the loss of one spoke will
not make the wheel unrideable. That's not to say these are the wheels
I'd be riding on my next bike tour, but next Populaire? Sure.

My experience suggests that the bias against boutique wheels is
reasonable, but the situation is not quite as dire as most might think.
Note that my wheel is about as conservative as low-spoke-count
aero-oriented wheels get: 18 spokes, even hole spacing across the rim,
and normal-looking parts (no custom spoke design or other proprietary
oddities). http://www.kultbike.com/shop/wheels.html

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com
Verus de parvis; verus de magnis.

 

[Peter Cole]

> Get an old wheel, take it apart, and put it back together. You'll
want a
> truing stand if you don't already have one. Sheldon has a good page
on
> wheel building: http://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

Taking apart old wheels strikes me as a waste of time. Just buy a set
of wheels, stress relieve them, bring up the tension & true them. You
can always find laced wheels cheaper than the parts.

> When you've got it built up with the tension about where you think it
should
> be, go back to the LBS and have them check it with a tensiometer.
Aside
> from the $ you save, there is the satisfaction of doing it yourself
and the
> confidence that you can fix problems out on the road.

You can compare the plucked tone to a similar wheel, you don't need a
tensiometer. You also don't need a truing stand or a dishing fixture.

 

[jim beam]

Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:
>>admittedly, i'm yet to put my money where my mouth is on this, but
>>having just stripped & repacked my cup/cone bearing hubs for the
>>/second/ time this winter because of rain rides washing excessive grit
>>into the drive side bearing, i'm inclined to say that a sealed bearing
>>solution is the best way to go. they are always cheaply
>>available/replacable, and at a full retail price of $300, a pair of
>>mavic cosmos wheels compare favorably with handbuilt wheels. the rim
>>is the same as the open pro, a known reliable rim, the spokes, while
>>lower in count, are slightly thicker to compensate and are straight
>>pull which eliminates elbow fatigue.
>>
>>in fact, i'm getting out the plastic right now - i hate messing about
>>with freehubs when they're full of grit.
>
>
> The issue I have never understood about Shimano road hubs is that they don't
> have a rubber contact seal on the bearings.

they do, but they're weeny & don't appear to be very effective - the
rears at least.

> I have done many wet rides on a
> basic front Deore hub and was surprised to see Shimano's grease a bright
> neon even after those many many wet, gritty miles. The fact that the wheel
> spins more freely with the labyrith rubber seals attests to the fact that
> grease fills the voids between the hub and the rubber parts, keeping out mud
> and grit effectively.

mine were full of grease too, but the grease itself keeps getting
gritted. this is not spalled bearing which sparkles under strong light,
but grey road grit.

>
> If I were ever to build up another set of road wheels for myself, I would no
> doubt build them with mountain hubs, fix the spacing, and change the axle if
> necessary.
>
i've considered that too - no doubt the seals are more effective on the
mtb hubs. trouble is, my commuter frame is aluminum & i really don't
want to re-space it to take the 135mm axle. re-spacing the hub doesn't
work because of the way the seals are arranged.

 

[Matt O'Toole]

Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:

> The issue I have never understood about Shimano road hubs is that
> they don't have a rubber contact seal on the bearings. I have done
> many wet rides on a basic front Deore hub and was surprised to see
> Shimano's grease a bright neon even after those many many wet, gritty
> miles. The fact that the wheel spins more freely with the labyrith
> rubber seals attests to the fact that grease fills the voids between
> the hub and the rubber parts, keeping out mud and grit effectively.
>
> If I were ever to build up another set of road wheels for myself, I
> would no doubt build them with mountain hubs, fix the spacing, and
> change the axle if necessary.

It's definately worth thinking about. I have an STX-RC hub on the rear of my
mountain bike, which seems every bit as good as the more expensive ones. The
few times I've taken it apart the grease has been clean. Shimano MTB hubs are
great.

Actually the freehub part needs to be serviced more often than the bearings
these days.

Early 90s MTB hubs were like road hubs, and sometimes needed to be serviced
after every wet ride. We used to leave the globs of grease that squeezed out,
thinking they had to wash away first before water could start getting past the
seals.

Matt O.

 

[Peter Cole]

Matt O'Toole wrote:

> It's definately worth thinking about. I have an STX-RC hub on the
rear of my
> mountain bike, which seems every bit as good as the more expensive
ones. The
> few times I've taken it apart the grease has been clean. Shimano MTB
hubs are
> great.
>
> Actually the freehub part needs to be serviced more often than the
bearings
> these days.

I've found the same thing, even the low-end Shimano MTB hubs are really
durable. They're also really cheap. Whenever I see them on sale, I
usually buy one just for the parts. The freehub swaps easily, no bother
with servicing, plus you've got a decent QR, a spare axle, cones &
balls. I've swapped the Ultegra freehubs with LX MTB ones.

 

[David L. Johnson]

On Mon, 28 Mar 2005 05:23:14 +0000, Phil, Squid-in-Training wrote:

> The issue I have never understood about Shimano road hubs is that they don't
> have a rubber contact seal on the bearings.

I have limited experience with Shimano road hubs. My experience with
Campy hubs is that they last a long time between rebuilds even in wet
conditions. In fact, I am feeling guilty since my road wheels have gone
maybe 4000 miles with no attention other than shooting a bit of grease in
the port (the hole in the center of the hubs; if it isn't equipped with
one, I drill one) every blue moon. The Shimano road hub I have is on
the fixed gear, which may get less exposure to wet conditions. The rear
is also Shimano, and I would not imagine the seals to be any better than
the road ones. Again I have a grease port drilled into these, so maybe
that helps.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Some people used to claim that, if enough monkeys sat in front
_`\(,_ | of enough typewriters and typed long enough, eventually one of
(_)/ (_) | them would reproduce the collected works of Shakespeare. The
internet has proven this not to be the case.

 

[[email protected]]

David L. Johnson wrote:
> In fact, I am feeling guilty since my road wheels have gone
> maybe 4000 miles with no attention other than shooting a bit of
grease in
> the port (the hole in the center of the hubs; if it isn't equipped
with
> one, I drill one) every blue moon.

I've thought about switching to that method of greasing hubs, but
haven't. Seems to me you're injecting a slug of grease between the
axle and the inner surface of the hub body. Isn't that grease
constantly being sheared whenever the wheel rotates? Does it not add
to rolling resistance? Can you feel the difference?

Frank Krygowski

 

[Booker C. Bense]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <[email protected]>,
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>David L. Johnson wrote:
>> In fact, I am feeling guilty since my road wheels have gone
>> maybe 4000 miles with no attention other than shooting a bit of
>grease in
>> the port (the hole in the center of the hubs; if it isn't equipped
>with
>> one, I drill one) every blue moon.
>
>I've thought about switching to that method of greasing hubs, but
>haven't. Seems to me you're injecting a slug of grease between the
>axle and the inner surface of the hub body. Isn't that grease
>constantly being sheared whenever the wheel rotates?

_ Yes, but since grease is pretty viscous the shear layer is very
thin and the hub is moving much slower than the rim ( roughly
1/70th the speed ). Most of the grease is either stuck to the axle or the hub.

>Does it not add to rolling resistance?

_ Probably in some fashion, it does add weight. Overall I think
the benefit of clean fresh grease with very little effort
outweighs any drawbacks.

>Can you feel the difference?

_ No, but I'm not racing these days.

_ Booker C. Bense

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[Booker C. Bense]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <[email protected]>,
<[email protected]> wrote:
>
>David L. Johnson wrote:
>> In fact, I am feeling guilty since my road wheels have gone
>> maybe 4000 miles with no attention other than shooting a bit of
>grease in
>> the port (the hole in the center of the hubs; if it isn't equipped
>with
>> one, I drill one) every blue moon.
>
>I've thought about switching to that method of greasing hubs, but
>haven't. Seems to me you're injecting a slug of grease between the
>axle and the inner surface of the hub body. Isn't that grease
>constantly being sheared whenever the wheel rotates?

_ Yes, but since grease is pretty viscous the shear layer is very
thin and the hub is moving much slower than the rim ( roughly
1/70th the speed ). Most of the grease is either stuck to the axle or the hub.

>Does it not add to rolling resistance?

_ Probably in some fashion, it does add weight. Overall I think
the benefit of clean fresh grease with very little effort
outweighs any drawbacks.

>Can you feel the difference?

_ No, but I'm not racing these days.

_ Booker C. Bense

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[David L. Johnson]

On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:30:17 -0800, frkrygow wrote:

>
> David L. Johnson wrote:
>> In fact, I am feeling guilty since my road wheels have gone
>> maybe 4000 miles with no attention other than shooting a bit of
> grease in
>> the port (the hole in the center of the hubs; if it isn't equipped
> with
>> one, I drill one) every blue moon.
>
> I've thought about switching to that method of greasing hubs, but
> haven't. Seems to me you're injecting a slug of grease between the
> axle and the inner surface of the hub body. Isn't that grease
> constantly being sheared whenever the wheel rotates? Does it not add
> to rolling resistance? Can you feel the difference?

It's not a total replacement for re-packing hubs with fresh grease and new
bearings, but it extends the interval between re-packing.

I doubt that there is much shear from the grease layer between the axle
and the hub body. What I see when I pull the hub apart is that there is
a layer of grease on hub and body, but there seems to be a space between
them. I think the grease separates pretty quickly so that it does not
cause drag. I certainly don't feel any drag. I do have to clean excess
grease off the ends of the hubs after I shoot more in, so most of the
excess seems to migrate outward.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Accept risk. Accept responsibility. Put a lawyer out of
_`\(,_ | business.
(_)/ (_) |

 

[David L. Johnson]

On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 21:30:17 -0800, frkrygow wrote:

>
> David L. Johnson wrote:
>> In fact, I am feeling guilty since my road wheels have gone
>> maybe 4000 miles with no attention other than shooting a bit of
> grease in
>> the port (the hole in the center of the hubs; if it isn't equipped
> with
>> one, I drill one) every blue moon.
>
> I've thought about switching to that method of greasing hubs, but
> haven't. Seems to me you're injecting a slug of grease between the
> axle and the inner surface of the hub body. Isn't that grease
> constantly being sheared whenever the wheel rotates? Does it not add
> to rolling resistance? Can you feel the difference?

It's not a total replacement for re-packing hubs with fresh grease and new
bearings, but it extends the interval between re-packing.

I doubt that there is much shear from the grease layer between the axle
and the hub body. What I see when I pull the hub apart is that there is
a layer of grease on hub and body, but there seems to be a space between
them. I think the grease separates pretty quickly so that it does not
cause drag. I certainly don't feel any drag. I do have to clean excess
grease off the ends of the hubs after I shoot more in, so most of the
excess seems to migrate outward.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Accept risk. Accept responsibility. Put a lawyer out of
_`\(,_ | business.
(_)/ (_) |