Re: Mission accomplished +5



B

Bill C

Guest
On May 4, 10:57 am, Jack Hollis <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sun, 04 May 2008 12:39:46 GMT, John Forrest Tomlinson
>
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >As I mentioned earlier, I've looked at critiques of the facts in his
> >films and the facts hold up.  

>
> You're living in a fantasy world.  MM's films are complete rubbish. Go
> look at the cancer survival rates in the UK compared to the US if you
> want to see how good health care is in the UK.
>
> The US has the best health care in the world.
>
> Take a look at gun violence in the US and exactly who is doing all the
> killing.  It's not members of the NRA.


Some quotes here:

Cuban-born Dr. Jose Carro, who interviews Cuban doctors who have moved
to the United States, says Moore's movie lies. Dr. Darsi Ferrer, a
human-rights advocate in Cuba, told us that Americans should not
believe the claims being made. He describes the Cuban people as "crazy
with desperation" because of poor-quality care.

George Utset, who writes The Real Cuba Web site, says Moore and his
group were ushered to the upper floors of the hospital, to rooms
reserved for the privileged. "They don't go to the hospital for
regular Cubans. They go to hospital for the elite. And it's a very
different condition," Utset says.

For ordinary Cubans, health care is different. A YouTube.com video,
posted by a woman from Venezuela, purports to show the two forms of
health care, one for the privileged who pay in dollars and a far
inferior one for regular Cubans.

http://www.nationalcenter.org/NPA557_Cuban_Health_Care.html

Says Canada's National Post, which assessed Cuba and its health system
in a three-part series:

Even the most commonly available pharmaceutical items in the U.S.,
such as Aspirin and rubbing alcohol, are conspicuously absent [in
Cuba]... Antibiotics... are in extremely short supply and available
only on the black market. Aspirin can be purchased only at government-
run dollar stores, which carry common medications at a huge markup in
U.S. dollars... This puts them out of reach of most Cubans, who are
paid little and in pesos.11

The same National Post story continues, quoting Jasmin, a nurse from
Moron, Cuba, "We have nothing. I haven't seen aspirin in a Cuban
store here for more than a year. If you have any pills in your purse,
I'll take them. Even if they have passed their expiry date."12

Cuban defector Dr. Leonel Cordova told the New York Times about his
experience practicing in Cuba, "[E]ven if I diagnosed something simple
like bronchitis... I couldn't write a prescription for antibiotics
because there were none."13

Along these lines, Patricia Grogg of the Inter Press Service writes:

[A] survey carried out in pharmacies late last year [in 2000] by the
local [Cuban] magazine Bohemia failed to find 211 of the medicines
included on the official list of products produced to attend to the
health of this Caribbean island nation's population of 11 million...
'They say scarcity of medicine is no longer such a serious problem,
but I've been trying for days to buy aspirin in this pharmacy, and
they always tell me there isn't any,' complained Mara Dolores Pea, a
60-year-old pensioner, outside her neighborhood pharmacy.14

In addition to a limited supply of medicine, according to a 2005
report in the Boston Globe, Cuban health care workers are in short
supply:

A 45-year-old nurse in Camaguey Province said she has worked without a
doctor in her primary-care clinic for more than two years since the
physician was transferred to another clinic to replace a doctor sent
to Venezuela. 'My patients complain every day. They want me to act
as a doctor, but I can't,' she said. 'The level of attention isn't
the same as before.'15

The nurse is alluding to a program in which one-fifth of Cuba's health
care labor supply - some 14,000 doctors and 6,000 health workers - has
been contracted out to work in Venezuela. Under a special "oil-for-
doctors" exchange between Venezuela's Hugo Chavez and Cuba's Fidel
Castro, Venezuelans receive free eye surgery in Cuba. In return for
these medical services, Cuba receives 90,000 barrels of discounted oil
per day.16

Ordinary Cubans have suffered as a result. "Blackouts, shortages of
consumer goods and other problems persist," wrote Gary Marx of the
Chicago Tribune.17

Show me anything as advanced, comprehensive, and skilled as the Mayo
Clinic, or Mass. General in Cuba.
Again they provide some level of services for everyone. We don't.
That's where we fail. Those covered have MUCH better care here.
We need to fix those not covered.
Bill C
 
J

John Forrest Tomlinson

Guest
On Sun, 4 May 2008 08:03:50 -0700 (PDT), Bill C
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Show me anything as advanced, comprehensive, and skilled as the Mayo
>Clinic, or Mass. General in Cuba.


I don't believe that Moore says that Cuba has the most advanced
medecine in the world.

Bill, your'e the definition of a reactionary. You can't stand people
on the left regardless of the message. It's Michael Moore! He's a
liberal and he's rich, so he has to be wrong. Even though you believe
US healthcare is messed up, even though you believe that corporate
welfare in the US is out of control, even though you believe the
premise of the Iraq war was wrong -- in sum, even though you believe
the fundamental messages of his films (and haven't seen them) -- it's
Michael Moore! He's a bogeyman! And Soros! And they support Kerry!
OMG, well, I'll not stop Bush.

Great.
 
J

Jack Hollis

Guest
On Sun, 4 May 2008 08:03:50 -0700 (PDT), Bill C
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Show me anything as advanced, comprehensive, and skilled as the Mayo
>Clinic, or Mass. General in Cuba.
> Again they provide some level of services for everyone. We don't.
>That's where we fail. Those covered have MUCH better care here.
> We need to fix those not covered.
> Bill C


I totally agree. Anyone who thinks that health care in Cuba is even
in the same league as the US has to be an idiot.

The US provides the best health care in the world to those who can
afford insurance. Even people without health insurance have access to
health care, but going to the ER for care is not as good as having a
primary care physician who monitors your health from year to year.

The trick is providing better care for those who can't afford health
insurance without screwing it up for the majority of Americans.
 
B

Bill C

Guest
On May 4, 11:15 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]>
wrote:
.
>
> Bill, your'e the definition of a reactionary.  You can't stand people
> on the left regardless of the message.  It's Michael Moore!  He's a
> liberal and he's rich, so he has to be wrong.  Even though you believe
> US healthcare is messed up, even though you believe that corporate
> welfare in the US is out of control, even though you believe the
> premise of the Iraq war was wrong -- in sum, even though you believe
> the fundamental messages of his films (and haven't seen them) -- it's
> Michael Moore!  He's a bogeyman! And Soros!  And they support Kerry!
> OMG, well, I'll not stop Bush.
>
> Great.  


JT you made my argument when you said "For 20% of the people". I've
said all along Moore distorts issues, even if it's only your 20% thats
a 1/5 distortion from what he says. As for your accusations they're
flat out wrong. I've stated my admiration and appreciation for lots of
folks on the left like Mike Farrell, Ed Asner, quite a few here, I've
defended Hillary and Bill and others. I think I've been at least as
tough on Bush, Cheney, Limbaugh, Hannity, Coulter, etc... \
The people of Tennessee felt the same way I do apparently. They
supported Al Gore and lauded him, when he was still one of them, when
he went off the far left, coastal elitist deep edge they cost him the
Presidency. The version Tennessee supported is one I would've happily
voted for.
As for Cuba and health care, can people get aspirin here?

Lets look at my extremist positions for a bit and you tell me which
ones are SO screwed up, right wing, and reactionary:
Free speech, unless it's directly calling for violence against people
in the US.
Freedom to practice religion, as long as it does not directly injure
non consenting, or non-adults individuals.
Freedom from having any religion forced on you.
Full civil rights protections and rights, including gay marriage.
Basic insurance coverage/health care for everyone.
US disengagement from, and an end to US world policing.
No corporate subsidies for large businesses.
Tariffs against unfair competition.
Move the UN to Paris.
Legalise and tax marijuana to support addiction clinicsand education
programs. No more harmful than alcohol and prohibition has never
worked.
Protect Roe V. Wade, and choice up until 3rd trimester, or mother's
life.
Protect wilderness and the environment
Control and limit destructive corporate access to public lands.
Real rehab, education, and employment programs for non-violent, and
first offense, non-capital criminals and young offenders.
Clean elections laws
Term limits
Holding white collar, and public sector criminals to at least the
standards, and treatment a kid off the street gets by the system.
Registration, background checks, disqualification for violent
offenses, mental illness, felonies, etc...from owning firearms.
Continue the extensive controls on automatic weapons that have been in
place since 1936.
We could keep going too....


Bill C
 
M

Michael Press

Guest
In article
<[email protected]>,
Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:

> On May 4, 10:57 am, Jack Hollis <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Sun, 04 May 2008 12:39:46 GMT, John Forrest Tomlinson
> >
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >As I mentioned earlier, I've looked at critiques of the facts in his
> > >films and the facts hold up.  

> >
> > You're living in a fantasy world.  MM's films are complete rubbish. Go
> > look at the cancer survival rates in the UK compared to the US if you
> > want to see how good health care is in the UK.
> >


[Quotations on medical care in Cuba]


Interesting. How does this compare with Haiti,
Dominican Republic, and Jamaica?

--
Michael Press
 
J

John Forrest Tomlinson

Guest
On Sun, 04 May 2008 13:03:30 -0400, Jack Hollis <[email protected]>
wrote:

>The trick is providing better care for those who can't afford health
>insurance without screwing it up for the majority of Americans.



Umm, there are plenty of Americans with "health insurance" who are
screwed too.
 
J

John Forrest Tomlinson

Guest
On Sun, 4 May 2008 14:06:04 -0700 (PDT), Bill C
<[email protected]> wrote:

> I've
>said all along Moore distorts issues, even if it's only your 20% thats
>a 1/5 distortion from what he says.


What does he say? Don't give me the filter of what you've heard he
says. Instead, what does he say?

His film was about the problems of health care for *insured*
Americans.
 
B

Bill C

Guest
On May 4, 7:26 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
> His film was about the problems of health care for *insured*
> Americans.


It was??

From:
http://www.michaelmoore.com/sicko/checkup/

'SiCKO' Factual Backup

SiCKO: There are nearly 50 million Americans without health
insurance.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention actually reported that
54.5 million people were uninsured for at least part of the year.
Health Insurance Coverage: Early Release of Estimates from the
National Health Interview Survey, 2006. Centers for Disease Control.
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhis/earlyrelease/insur200706.pdf
The amount of uninsured is rising every year, as premiums continue to
skyrocket and wages stagnate. From 2004 to 2005 the number of
uninsured rose 1.3 million, and rose up nearly 6 million from
2001-2005. Leighton Ku, "Census Revises Estimates Of The Number Of
Uninsured People," Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, April 5,
2007 http://www.cbpp.org/4-5-07health.htm. With 44.8 uninsured in
2005, in 2007 the number will be much higher. Professors Todd Gilmer
and Richard Kronick, in "It's The Premiums, Stupid: Projections Of The
Uninsured Through 2013," Health Affairs, 10.1377/hlthaff.w5.143,
"project that the number of non-elderly uninsured Americans will grow
from forty-five million in 2003 to fifty-six million by 2013."
According to these authors, by now the number of non-elderly uninsured
by this date clearly would be nearly 50 million.
SiCKO: 18,000 Americans will die this year simply because they're
uninsured.

According to the Institute of Medicine, "lack of health insurance
causes roughly 18,000 unnecessary deaths every year in the United
States. Although America leads the world in spending on health care,
it is the only wealthy, industrialized nation that does not ensure
that all citizens have coverage." Insuring America's Health:
Principles and Recommendations, Institute of Medicine, January 2004.
http://www.iom.edu/?id=19175

Tell me again about how big and tolerant that tent is, and how
reactionary I am...

I agree with you on 90% of Bush. I support and have encouraged a full
blown criminal investigation into his activities as soon as he's out
of office by writing to my congresscritters. I did NOT vote for him
for re-election. I am relentless in my criticism of him, and his
people.
This is not enough for you. Now I'm horrendous because I refused to
compromise my core beliefs for the small difference between where I am
on Bush and where you are.
Bill C
 
P

Paul G.

Guest
On May 4, 2:16 pm, Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article
> <[email protected]>,
> Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On May 4, 10:57 am, Jack Hollis <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > On Sun, 04 May 2008 12:39:46 GMT, John Forrest Tomlinson

>
> > > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >As I mentioned earlier, I've looked at critiques of the facts in his
> > > >films and the facts hold up.

>
> > > You're living in a fantasy world. MM's films are complete rubbish. Go
> > > look at the cancer survival rates in the UK compared to the US if you
> > > want to see how good health care is in the UK.

>
> [Quotations on medical care in Cuba]
>
> Interesting. How does this compare with Haiti,
> Dominican Republic, and Jamaica?
>
> --
> Michael Press


Exactly. Probably the best comparison would be Canada vs the US, Cuba
vs the US is absurd.
I've lived under cradle-to-grave socialism- eating govt supplied food,
living in govt supplied housing, wearing govt supplied clothes, with
free govt supplied medical and dental care. The medical and dental
care were pretty good. However, I was sure glad to get out of the
service an into private enterprise. ;-)

-Paul
 
J

John Forrest Tomlinson

Guest
On Sun, 4 May 2008 16:46:03 -0700 (PDT), Bill C
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On May 4, 7:26 pm, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>
>> His film was about the problems of health care for *insured*
>> Americans.

>
>It was??


Yes, it was. It talks, briefly, about uninsured people, but the focus
is on the problems even within the world of people with insurance.
 
H

Howard Kveck

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Sun, 4 May 2008 08:03:50 -0700 (PDT), Bill C
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >Show me anything as advanced, comprehensive, and skilled as the Mayo
> >Clinic, or Mass. General in Cuba.

>
> I don't believe that Moore says that Cuba has the most advanced
> medecine in the world.
>
> Bill, your'e the definition of a reactionary. You can't stand people
> on the left regardless of the message. It's Michael Moore! He's a
> liberal and he's rich, so he has to be wrong. Even though you believe
> US healthcare is messed up, even though you believe that corporate
> welfare in the US is out of control, even though you believe the
> premise of the Iraq war was wrong -- in sum, even though you believe
> the fundamental messages of his films (and haven't seen them) -- it's
> Michael Moore! He's a bogeyman! And Soros! And they support Kerry!
> OMG, well, I'll not stop Bush.
>
> Great.


You forgot the big one (so to speak): Michael Moore is FAT!

--
tanx,
Howard

Whatever happened to
Leon Trotsky?
He got an icepick
That made his ears burn.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
 
H

Howard Kveck

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:

> On May 4, 11:15 am, John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> .
> >
> > Bill, your'e the definition of a reactionary.  You can't stand people
> > on the left regardless of the message.  It's Michael Moore!  He's a
> > liberal and he's rich, so he has to be wrong.  Even though you believe
> > US healthcare is messed up, even though you believe that corporate
> > welfare in the US is out of control, even though you believe the
> > premise of the Iraq war was wrong -- in sum, even though you believe
> > the fundamental messages of his films (and haven't seen them) -- it's
> > Michael Moore!  He's a bogeyman! And Soros!  And they support Kerry!
> > OMG, well, I'll not stop Bush.
> >
> > Great.  

>
> JT you made my argument when you said "For 20% of the people". I've
> said all along Moore distorts issues, even if it's only your 20% thats
> a 1/5 distortion from what he says. As for your accusations they're
> flat out wrong. I've stated my admiration and appreciation for lots of
> folks on the left like Mike Farrell, Ed Asner, quite a few here, I've
> defended Hillary and Bill and others. I think I've been at least as
> tough on Bush, Cheney, Limbaugh, Hannity, Coulter, etc... \
> The people of Tennessee felt the same way I do apparently. They
> supported Al Gore and lauded him, when he was still one of them, when
> he went off the far left, coastal elitist deep edge they cost him the
> Presidency. The version Tennessee supported is one I would've happily
> voted for.
> As for Cuba and health care, can people get aspirin here?
>
> Lets look at my extremist positions for a bit and you tell me which
> ones are SO screwed up, right wing, and reactionary:
> Free speech, unless it's directly calling for violence against people
> in the US.
> Freedom to practice religion, as long as it does not directly injure
> non consenting, or non-adults individuals.
> Freedom from having any religion forced on you.
> Full civil rights protections and rights, including gay marriage.
> Basic insurance coverage/health care for everyone.
> US disengagement from, and an end to US world policing.
> No corporate subsidies for large businesses.
> Tariffs against unfair competition.
> Move the UN to Paris.
> Legalise and tax marijuana to support addiction clinicsand education
> programs. No more harmful than alcohol and prohibition has never
> worked.
> Protect Roe V. Wade, and choice up until 3rd trimester, or mother's
> life.
> Protect wilderness and the environment
> Control and limit destructive corporate access to public lands.
> Real rehab, education, and employment programs for non-violent, and
> first offense, non-capital criminals and young offenders.
> Clean elections laws
> Term limits
> Holding white collar, and public sector criminals to at least the
> standards, and treatment a kid off the street gets by the system.
> Registration, background checks, disqualification for violent
> offenses, mental illness, felonies, etc...from owning firearms.
> Continue the extensive controls on automatic weapons that have been in
> place since 1936.
> We could keep going too....


Hmm, then why do you so frequently condemn and vote against the candidates that
are more likely to support those positions and vote for the ones that don't want
those things? You vote against your own interests, Bill.

--
tanx,
Howard

Whatever happened to
Leon Trotsky?
He got an icepick
That made his ears burn.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?