Re: Muscle soreness, like, dislike?

[Prisoner at War]

On Sep 30, 7:54 am, Tom Anderson <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> I don't like being in pain. I put up with a little as a necessary evil,
> but i tend to think that if i'm really hurting, i've done something
> wrong.

I rarely get real DOMS anymore, and that actually worries me because
I've always associated it with a good hard workout. However, given
that I'm "calming down" with age, anyway, I don't worry as much as I
might have in the past...so it's all good; I take what I can get.

I think I know "pain" from "discomfort" now and I rarely get the pain
of DOMS these days...only the discomfort of it, which, given my one
day on/one day off split, goes away quickly.

> Sadly, i got to a point where pretty much any leg pressing of calf raising
> would leave me in that kind of pain; i've never figured out what i'm doing
> wrong, so i don't do leg work as much as i should now. I even get painful
> knees when cycling (although it doesn't last after i stop), which really
> worries me. Anyway, i digress.

Bum knees cycling? That's usually a matter of pedaling on the wrong
gear: you should be spinning your way up the hill instead of grinding
your knees on a harder-to-pedal gear in order to get some power out of
each "stroke"...that, and maybe given your anatomy your knees are too
close or too far from the whachamacallit, the pedal-thinggy that
connects the pedal to the crank-thinggy....

> tom
>
> --
> taxidermy, high tide marks, sabotage, markets, folklore, subverting, .

 

[[email protected]]

On Sep 30, 8:31 am, Prisoner at War <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sep 30, 7:54 am, Tom Anderson <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I don't like being in pain. I put up with a little as a necessary evil,
> > but i tend to think that if i'm really hurting, i've done something
> > wrong.
>
> I rarely get real DOMS anymore, and that actually worries me because
> I've always associated it with a good hard workout. However, given
> that I'm "calming down" with age, anyway, I don't worry as much as I
> might have in the past...so it's all good; I take what I can get.
>
> I think I know "pain" from "discomfort" now and I rarely get the pain
> of DOMS these days...only the discomfort of it, which, given my one
> day on/one day off split, goes away quickly.
>
> > Sadly, i got to a point where pretty much any leg pressing of calf raising
> > would leave me in that kind of pain; i've never figured out what i'm doing
> > wrong, so i don't do leg work as much as i should now. I even get painful
> > knees when cycling (although it doesn't last after i stop), which really
> > worries me. Anyway, i digress.
>
> Bum knees cycling? That's usually a matter of pedaling on the wrong
> gear: you should be spinning your way up the hill instead of grinding
> your knees on a harder-to-pedal gear in order to get some power out of
> each "stroke"...that, and maybe given your anatomy your knees are too
> close or too far from the whachamacallit, the pedal-thinggy that
> connects the pedal to the crank-thinggy....
>
>
>
> > tom
>
> > --
> > taxidermy, high tide marks, sabotage, markets, folklore, subverting, .- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Seat height can also cause knee pain if set up incorrectly. Too low
and you may have pain on the front of the knee, too high and it will
hurt in back. Having the wrong cleat angle on clipless pedals can also
be a factor in knee pain.

Smokey

 

[Tom Anderson]

On Sun, 30 Sep 2007, [email protected] wrote:

> On Sep 30, 8:31 am, Prisoner at War <[email protected]> wrote:
>> On Sep 30, 7:54 am, Tom Anderson <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> I don't like being in pain. I put up with a little as a necessary
>>> evil, but i tend to think that if i'm really hurting, i've done
>>> something wrong.
>>
>> I rarely get real DOMS anymore, and that actually worries me because
>> I've always associated it with a good hard workout. However, given
>> that I'm "calming down" with age, anyway, I don't worry as much as I
>> might have in the past...so it's all good; I take what I can get.

IME, i only get DOMS after i work a muscle that hans't been worked in a
very long time. Basically, when i started lifting, when i restarted, and
when i've added a new exercise that hit muscles that were idle before.

>>> Sadly, i got to a point where pretty much any leg pressing of calf
>>> raising would leave me in that kind of pain; i've never figured out
>>> what i'm doing wrong, so i don't do leg work as much as i should now.
>>> I even get painful knees when cycling (although it doesn't last after
>>> i stop), which really worries me. Anyway, i digress.
>>
>> Bum knees cycling? That's usually a matter of pedaling on the wrong
>> gear: you should be spinning your way up the hill instead of grinding
>> your knees on a harder-to-pedal gear in order to get some power out of
>> each "stroke"...that, and maybe given your anatomy your knees are too
>> close or too far from the whachamacallit, the pedal-thinggy that
>> connects the pedal to the crank-thinggy....
>
> Seat height can also cause knee pain if set up incorrectly. Too low and
> you may have pain on the front of the knee, too high and it will hurt in
> back. Having the wrong cleat angle on clipless pedals can also be a
> factor in knee pain.

Yebbut none of the geometry factors have changed. I think it's a
combination of putting on weight and getting out of shape. Although bad
gear use is probably also a significant factor: due to a badly-adjusted
shifter i haven't got round to fixing, my bottom two gears are
inaccessible, and whilst this doesn't matter on flats, on climbs,
especially if i have a heavy pack, it means i'm pushing too hard.

There's also a psychology thing here, in that i'd rather push really hard
(maintaining normal cadence) on a not-too-steep climb than shift down and
slow down, due to macho ********.

Possibly the geometry has always been suboptimal, but it's only now that
it's starting to make itself felt. I should look into this. I don't have a
local bike shop i really trust enough to sort it out better than i could
myself, though.

tom

--
On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 'Pray,
Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right
answers come out?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of
confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage

 

[Tom Anderson]

On Mon, 1 Oct 2007, Prisoner at War wrote:

> On Sep 30, 9:44 am, "Steve Freides" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>> <SNIP elaboration of Smokey's remarks>
>>
>> And Smokey, please don't add newsgroups to the list - cross-posting is
>> bad enough around here, already, and someone can start a new thread
>> elsewhere if they like whenever they like.
>
> Smokey, all these newsgroups are on-topic;

alt.support.chronic-pain?
alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent?

I don't think so.

tom

--
But for [Flavor Flav's] "YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAH BOYYYYYYYYYY"s alone he should
be given Rap Legend status. -- Nate Patrin, ILX

 

[Steve Freides]

"Tom Anderson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news[email protected]...
> On Mon, 1 Oct 2007, Prisoner at War wrote:
>
>> On Sep 30, 9:44 am, "Steve Freides" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>> <SNIP elaboration of Smokey's remarks>
>>>
>>> And Smokey, please don't add newsgroups to the list - cross-posting
>>> is bad enough around here, already, and someone can start a new
>>> thread elsewhere if they like whenever they like.
>>
>> Smokey, all these newsgroups are on-topic;
>
> alt.support.chronic-pain?
> alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent?
>
> I don't think so.

There are some news servers that I frequent, privately run although
publicly visible, in which cross-posting is very much frowned upon (to
the point where the sysops reprimand the cross-posters and only reply to
one group, if at all), and I generally agree with that sentiment. Find
the group that's most appropriate, have the conversation there and, when
it's over, if you feel the need to ask the same or a similar question on
another group, have at it.

That said, I don't really care if mfw message are also cross-posted on
things like misc.fitness.weights and the like, but beyond that, I think
the idea of not cross-posting to widely different newsgroups is wise,
even when the subject matter could be said to apply to more than one
group.

Just my opinion.

-S-
http://www.kbnj.com


> tom
>
> --
> But for [Flavor Flav's] "YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAH BOYYYYYYYYYY"s alone he
> should
> be given Rap Legend status. -- Nate Patrin, ILX

 

[nmp]

Tom Anderson wrote:

> On Sun, 30 Sep 2007, [email protected] wrote:

[..]

>> Seat height can also cause knee pain if set up incorrectly. Too low and
>> you may have pain on the front of the knee, too high and it will hurt
>> in back. Having the wrong cleat angle on clipless pedals can also be a
>> factor in knee pain.
>
> Yebbut none of the geometry factors have changed.

Using different (thicker/thinner) shoes perhaps? Even just 5mm can make a
difference.

> I think it's a combination of putting on weight and getting out of
> shape. Although bad gear use is probably also a significant factor: due
> to a badly-adjusted shifter i haven't got round to fixing, my bottom
> two gears are inaccessible, and whilst this doesn't matter on flats, on
> climbs, especially if i have a heavy pack, it means i'm pushing too
> hard.

Then fix the shifter (or the derailleur as the case may be). It really
can't be difficult.

> There's also a psychology thing here, in that i'd rather push really
> hard (maintaining normal cadence) on a not-too-steep climb than shift
> down and slow down, due to macho ********.



Maintaining normal cadence[*] is the reason for shifting to a lower gear.
But yes, you will go slower. There is no shame in that.

[*] Probably slightly faster than you are used to doing right now.

> Possibly the geometry has always been suboptimal, but it's only now that
> it's starting to make itself felt. I should look into this. I don't have
> a local bike shop i really trust enough to sort it out better than i
> could myself, though.

There isn't a shop in the world that could do it better than you could if
you just knew what you were looking for. Because only you can ultimately
decide if "it feels right".

For seat height (everything else really just follows) you could try this:
Have someone stabilise you (or hold yourself up against a wall or
something) while sitting upright on your bike. Place your feet on the
pedals as if you were riding, that is, try to place the joint at the base
of your big toe (don't know its name in English, sorry) squarely on the
pedal for best "style" and leverage. Don't stretch out your feet. Pedal
backwards, hold your hips still, your pelvis and spine should not move at
all. Now with either pedal in the lowest position, your legs should never
be stretched out completely, and just a tiny bit of a bend in your knees
should be present at all times.

 

[Tom Anderson]

On Tue, 2 Oct 2007, nmp wrote:

> Tom Anderson wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 30 Sep 2007, [email protected] wrote:
>
> [..]
>
>>> Seat height can also cause knee pain if set up incorrectly. Too low
>>> and you may have pain on the front of the knee, too high and it will
>>> hurt in back. Having the wrong cleat angle on clipless pedals can also
>>> be a factor in knee pain.
>>
>> Yebbut none of the geometry factors have changed.
>
> Using different (thicker/thinner) shoes perhaps? Even just 5mm can make a
> difference.

Same shoes. But i seem to have been wrong about the geometry - see below.

>> I think it's a combination of putting on weight and getting out of
>> shape. Although bad gear use is probably also a significant factor: due
>> to a badly-adjusted shifter i haven't got round to fixing, my bottom
>> two gears are inaccessible, and whilst this doesn't matter on flats, on
>> climbs, especially if i have a heavy pack, it means i'm pushing too
>> hard.
>
> Then fix the shifter (or the derailleur as the case may be).

Yes, it's the derailleur, sorry.

> It really can't be difficult.

No, not terribly. I just keep putting it off. Part of the problem, though,
is that the way the derailer works is different when the bike's upside
down and the wheels are spinning free to how it is when it's under real
load, which makes finding the right setting a really frustrating process.
It just takes time, though; this weekend is a gaping void in my social
calendar, maybe i'll do it then.

>> There's also a psychology thing here, in that i'd rather push really
>> hard (maintaining normal cadence) on a not-too-steep climb than shift
>> down and slow down, due to macho ********.
>
>
>
> Maintaining normal cadence[*] is the reason for shifting to a lower gear.

I understand that. You can also keep up a normal cadence, stay in the same
gear, and push harder. It's a bad idea, but it's what i sometimes end up
doing.

> But yes, you will go slower. There is no shame in that.

No, indeed. There are sometimes practical matters, though - there's one
road with fairly heavy bus traffic, and if you can keep going fast up the
hill, you can stay in phase with it, and avoid being overtaken. The road
is busy, not as wide as it should be, and has a lot of bus stops, so if
you do get overtaken, it's not fun, plus the bus will invariably then cut
you up to pull in to its next stop. The rest of the time, i'm all in
favour of slower.

> [*] Probably slightly faster than you are used to doing right now.

Exactly what everyone always says! If we always took that advice, we'd end
up pedalling at infinite speed!

>> Possibly the geometry has always been suboptimal, but it's only now
>> that it's starting to make itself felt. I should look into this. I
>> don't have a local bike shop i really trust enough to sort it out
>> better than i could myself, though.
>
> There isn't a shop in the world that could do it better than you could if
> you just knew what you were looking for. Because only you can ultimately
> decide if "it feels right".
>
> For seat height (everything else really just follows) you could try
> this: Have someone stabilise you (or hold yourself up against a wall or
> something) while sitting upright on your bike. Place your feet on the
> pedals as if you were riding, that is, try to place the joint at the
> base of your big toe (don't know its name in English, sorry)

We call that the ball of the foot.

> squarely on the pedal for best "style" and leverage. Don't stretch out
> your feet. Pedal backwards, hold your hips still, your pelvis and spine
> should not move at all. Now with either pedal in the lowest position,
> your legs should never be stretched out completely, and just a tiny bit
> of a bend in your knees should be present at all times.

Slightly different to how i've done it in the past, which is to go for a
fully extended but flat-footed leg at the extreme of extension. It
probably comes to much the same thing.

Now, since we got talking about this, i checked my saddle height to make
sure, and it was a good inch or so lower than it should be. I'm not sure
why this is so; i don't think i've got taller, sadly, so i think it must
have just slid down, or else i set it wrong at some point, possibly while
fitting a mudguard. Anyway, it's now higher, and i might try to move it up
further. It already feels more comfortable, although i still get some
joint pain when going fast uphill.

The real problem with geometry, for me, is with the forward-backward
position of the saddle. I have no idea what that should be, and basically
always leave it at the default position.

tom

--
so if you hear a chaffinch out on the pull attempting a severely off-key
version of "Sabotage" by the Beastie Boys then you're not actually
going mad.

 

[J. Gleixner]

Tom Anderson wrote:
> On Tue, 2 Oct 2007, nmp wrote:
> [...]
> The real problem with geometry, for me, is with the forward-backward
> position of the saddle. I have no idea what that should be, and
> basically always leave it at the default position.
>
> tom
>

Plenty of "How to's" on the Internet:

http://www.bicycling.com/article/0,6610,s1-5-30-1064-1,00.html

Spend the $30-50 to get a 'fit kit' done at any reputable bike shop,
have them adjust the derailleur too. If you don't know what you're
doing you'll waste a lot of time and adjusting it too far might run
it right into your spokes.