Re: OT Anorexia vs. Obesity

Discussion in 'Food and nutrition' started by John, Dec 14, 2004.

  1. John

    John Guest

    On 14 Dec 2004 23:33:55 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

    >
    >I read it again, and it confirms what I recall of it from before, 2 lb of
    >eggs fits the diet. I also confirmed that no consideration is given to
    >the vast range in calories 2 lbs can have,ie. eggs and cabbage, and that
    >no consideration is given to food choieces with regard to health and
    >nutrition goals. These are ignored, read previously, read again, match.
    >Simply saying it would be an egg diet if one chose your diet and decided,
    >after considering all the parameters provided, to eat eggs is a strawman.
    >Now we have cleared up the fatal flaws with the current version, let's
    >roll up our shirt sleves and get down to building on your observation and
    >makeing it finally a complete diet that considers calorie content and
    >other vital health and nutrition goals. Let's talk soon.


    I'm looking forward to this reading about this talk. Let's start
    right after you can find someone who would/could eat nothing but eggs
    every day the rest of their life.

    The 2PD is described in about one page of text. Recipes and menus are
    not discussed at all. Rather, Dr. Chung simply calls for us to use a
    just a little bit of common sense. He also calls for us to consult
    our doctors who, presumably, would offer some detailed nutritional
    advice if we appear to be in need of it. In my case, I rely on my
    spouse who has about 30 feet of bookshelf space filled with cookbooks
    to come up with a nutritious menu plan. I rely on my self (with God's
    help) to exercise the necessary self control to limit myself to 2PD of
    whatever wonderful stuff she comes up with. I'm not having any
    trouble doing this. It's an interesting challenge but fun. Looking
    in a closet, I just found some really nice ski pants that I haven't
    been able to put on in about 10 years. I have several pairs of brand
    new Wranglers, size 38x32, on the shelf that I bought right about when
    I started this. I guess I'm never going to get to wear them. Oh,
    well.

    John
     
    Tags:


  2. John wrote:
    >
    > On 14 Dec 2004 23:33:55 GMT, [email protected] wrote:
    >
    > >
    > >I read it again, and it confirms what I recall of it from before, 2 lb of
    > >eggs fits the diet. I also confirmed that no consideration is given to
    > >the vast range in calories 2 lbs can have,ie. eggs and cabbage, and that
    > >no consideration is given to food choieces with regard to health and
    > >nutrition goals. These are ignored, read previously, read again, match.
    > >Simply saying it would be an egg diet if one chose your diet and decided,
    > >after considering all the parameters provided, to eat eggs is a strawman.
    > >Now we have cleared up the fatal flaws with the current version, let's
    > >roll up our shirt sleves and get down to building on your observation and
    > >makeing it finally a complete diet that considers calorie content and
    > >other vital health and nutrition goals. Let's talk soon.

    >
    > I'm looking forward to this reading about this talk. Let's start
    > right after you can find someone who would/could eat nothing but eggs
    > every day the rest of their life.
    >
    > The 2PD is described in about one page of text. Recipes and menus are
    > not discussed at all. Rather, Dr. Chung simply calls for us to use a
    > just a little bit of common sense. He also calls for us to consult
    > our doctors who, presumably, would offer some detailed nutritional
    > advice if we appear to be in need of it. In my case, I rely on my
    > spouse who has about 30 feet of bookshelf space filled with cookbooks
    > to come up with a nutritious menu plan. I rely on my self (with God's
    > help) to exercise the necessary self control to limit myself to 2PD of
    > whatever wonderful stuff she comes up with. I'm not having any
    > trouble doing this. It's an interesting challenge but fun. Looking
    > in a closet, I just found some really nice ski pants that I haven't
    > been able to put on in about 10 years. I have several pairs of brand
    > new Wranglers, size 38x32, on the shelf that I bought right about when
    > I started this. I guess I'm never going to get to wear them. Oh,
    > well.
    >
    > John



    The Salvation Army could benefit from the oversized clothes that you
    presently have among the things you presently steward :)

    Such is the work being done here for Christ's glory
    (http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A).


    Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

    Andrew

    --
    Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
    Board-Certified Cardiologist
    http://www.heartmdphd.com/

    **
    Who is the humblest person in the universe?
    http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048

    What is all this about?
    http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A

    Is this spam?
    http://makeashorterlink.com/?D13B21FF9
     
  3. MU

    MU Guest

    > On 14 Dec 2004 23:33:55 GMT, [email protected] wrote:
    >
    >>
    >>I read it again, and it confirms what I recall of it from before, 2 lb of
    >>eggs fits the diet. I also confirmed that no consideration is given to
    >>the vast range in calories 2 lbs can have,ie. eggs and cabbage, and that
    >>no consideration is given to food choieces with regard to health and
    >>nutrition goals. These are ignored, read previously, read again, match.
    >>Simply saying it would be an egg diet if one chose your diet and decided,
    >>after considering all the parameters provided, to eat eggs is a strawman.
    >>Now we have cleared up the fatal flaws with the current version, let's
    >>roll up our shirt sleves and get down to building on your observation and
    >>makeing it finally a complete diet that considers calorie content and
    >>other vital health and nutrition goals. Let's talk soon.


    On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 21:48:56 -0700, John wrote:

    > I'm looking forward to this reading about this talk. Let's start
    > right after you can find someone who would/could eat nothing but eggs
    > every day the rest of their life.


    John, you certainly can do as you wish but I'm so far past being interested
    in people like this goober. There are two things I look for in a
    discussion about the 2PDiet that immediately turn me off. 1) this
    ridiculous "what if you eat every day two pounds of <insert>" mentality.
    Bzzzt. Goober identified. Argument for the sake of argument.

    2) "Uh, can you have <insert> on the 2PD or <insert> foods are not listed.
    It's not a nutritional woe." Bzzzt. Goober identified. Hasn't read the
    single page of text. Argument for the sake of argument.

    There are a few other inane identifiers but you get the drift.

    Outside of those that are truly, mentally clueless, the rest of these
    goobers ought to buy a mirror, stand in front of it, and wage war....with
    themselves.

    I can tell you one thing. Take Christ out of these discussions, I'll bet
    9/10ths of them go away. Christianity really pisses ppl off. Discussing
    Christ, not religion, but Christ makes most of the world uneasy and
    insecure.
     
  4. MU wrote:
    >
    > > On 14 Dec 2004 23:33:55 GMT, [email protected] wrote:
    > >
    > >>
    > >>I read it again, and it confirms what I recall of it from before, 2 lb of
    > >>eggs fits the diet. I also confirmed that no consideration is given to
    > >>the vast range in calories 2 lbs can have,ie. eggs and cabbage, and that
    > >>no consideration is given to food choieces with regard to health and
    > >>nutrition goals. These are ignored, read previously, read again, match.
    > >>Simply saying it would be an egg diet if one chose your diet and decided,
    > >>after considering all the parameters provided, to eat eggs is a strawman.
    > >>Now we have cleared up the fatal flaws with the current version, let's
    > >>roll up our shirt sleves and get down to building on your observation and
    > >>makeing it finally a complete diet that considers calorie content and
    > >>other vital health and nutrition goals. Let's talk soon.

    >
    > On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 21:48:56 -0700, John wrote:
    >
    > > I'm looking forward to this reading about this talk. Let's start
    > > right after you can find someone who would/could eat nothing but eggs
    > > every day the rest of their life.

    >
    > John, you certainly can do as you wish but I'm so far past being interested
    > in people like this goober. There are two things I look for in a
    > discussion about the 2PDiet that immediately turn me off. 1) this
    > ridiculous "what if you eat every day two pounds of <insert>" mentality.
    > Bzzzt. Goober identified. Argument for the sake of argument.
    >
    > 2) "Uh, can you have <insert> on the 2PD or <insert> foods are not listed.
    > It's not a nutritional woe." Bzzzt. Goober identified. Hasn't read the
    > single page of text. Argument for the sake of argument.
    >
    > There are a few other inane identifiers but you get the drift.
    >
    > Outside of those that are truly, mentally clueless, the rest of these
    > goobers ought to buy a mirror, stand in front of it, and wage war....with
    > themselves.
    >
    > I can tell you one thing. Take Christ out of these discussions, I'll bet
    > 9/10ths of them go away. Christianity really pisses ppl off. Discussing
    > Christ, not religion, but Christ makes most of the world uneasy and
    > insecure.



    And so here we are as His salt and light in this world.

    Such is the work being done here for Christ's glory
    (http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A).


    Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

    Andrew

    --
    Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
    Board-Certified Cardiologist
    http://www.heartmdphd.com/

    **
    Who is the humblest person in the universe?
    http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048

    What is all this about?
    http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A

    Is this spam?
    http://makeashorterlink.com/?D13B21FF9
     
  5. MU

    MU Guest


    >> I can tell you one thing. Take Christ out of these discussions, I'll bet
    >> 9/10ths of them go away. Christianity really pisses ppl off. Discussing
    >> Christ, not religion, but Christ makes most of the world uneasy and
    >> insecure.


    On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:47:23 -0500, Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD wrote:

    > And so here we are as His salt and light in this world.


    I may be more salt than light but that is the way I read Christ. A lot of
    piss, vinegar, humanity, a powerful combination. Even if you took the
    Father out of the Son, the Man is an incredible read.

    Have you ever thought about how it might have been to actually have lived
    in His time, walked by His side? I have. I cannot imagine it in a real life
    sense.

    I wanted to get north to Israel but flew by only. I am not certain I can do
    that without a sense of awe that might be overwhelming.
     
  6. I read the instructions long ago, they were in a different fortmat but had
    the same info as now. Goober, aka peanut, 5312 calories for 2 lbs, nope
    don't work and still misses many health and nutrition goals. As
    mentioned, personal attack is the last refuge of a scoundral, famious
    person. It is argument for the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
    When Andrew and I get the flaws ironed out of what was his intresting
    observation, then we can argue against all others for will we will have
    the truth.

    John, you certainly can do as you wish but I'm so far past being
    interested
    in people like this goober. There are two things I look for in a
    discussion about the 2PDiet that immediately turn me off. 1) this
    ridiculous "what if you eat every day two pounds of <insert>" mentality.
    Bzzzt. Goober identified. Argument for the sake of argument.

    2) "Uh, can you have <insert> on the 2PD or <insert> foods are not listed.
    It's not a nutritional woe." Bzzzt. Goober identified. Hasn't read
    thesingle page of text. Argument for the sake of argument.

    There are a few other inane identifiers but you get the drift.

    Outside of those that are truly, mentally clueless, the rest of these
    goobers ought to buy a mirror, stand in front of it, and wage war....with
    themselves.
     
  7. "I'm looking forward to this reading about this talk. Let's start
    right after you can find someone who would/could eat nothing but eggs
    every day the rest of their life.

    The 2PD is described in about one page of text. Recipes and menus are
    not discussed at all. Rather, Dr. Chung simply calls for us to use a
    just a little bit of common sense. He also calls for us to consult
    our doctors who, presumably, would offer some detailed nutritional
    advice if we appear to be in need of it."

    I too am looking forward to the very promising work that can be built on
    his intresting observation. There is a rather well known case of a man
    who eats 25 eggs every day. He is known because he has been the subject
    of studies about the effect of nutritional fat on blood lipid profiles.
    Some people who subsist on the same one or few foods a day would be
    overjoyed to use eggs instead. His "instructions" are crude in the
    extreme, devoting most space to how to use the scale with a notebook.
    Menues etc. is not the question, scientific validity based soley on his
    "diet" is the point, and as an intresting side play his word play and
    dancing about when he knows the jig is up, so to speak because the flaws
    are all too obvious but he can't come to publiclly admit them. Reference
    to "doctor" is, in addition to himself of course, are advice to take the
    record to the doctor and to see one if symptoms of low bp persist. My
    intrest is scientific truthfulness and concern for health and nutritional
    aspects the diet ignores. Bty, the "tell your doctor" is proabably in
    part a concern for liability, don't you think? Don't rush to judgement,
    let's see what he and I develope, pray for us.
     
  8. John

    John Guest

    On Wed, 15 Dec 2004 12:33:52 -0500, MU <[email protected]> wrote:

    >> On 14 Dec 2004 23:33:55 GMT, [email protected] wrote:
    >>
    >>>
    >>>I read it again, and it confirms what I recall of it from before, 2 lb of
    >>>eggs fits the diet. I also confirmed that no consideration is given to
    >>>the vast range in calories 2 lbs can have,ie. eggs and cabbage, and that
    >>>no consideration is given to food choieces with regard to health and
    >>>nutrition goals. These are ignored, read previously, read again, match.
    >>>Simply saying it would be an egg diet if one chose your diet and decided,
    >>>after considering all the parameters provided, to eat eggs is a strawman.
    >>>Now we have cleared up the fatal flaws with the current version, let's
    >>>roll up our shirt sleves and get down to building on your observation and
    >>>makeing it finally a complete diet that considers calorie content and
    >>>other vital health and nutrition goals. Let's talk soon.

    >
    >On Tue, 14 Dec 2004 21:48:56 -0700, John wrote:
    >
    >> I'm looking forward to this reading about this talk. Let's start
    >> right after you can find someone who would/could eat nothing but eggs
    >> every day the rest of their life.

    >
    >John, you certainly can do as you wish but I'm so far past being interested
    >in people like this goober. There are two things I look for in a
    >discussion about the 2PDiet that immediately turn me off. 1) this
    >ridiculous "what if you eat every day two pounds of <insert>" mentality.
    >Bzzzt. Goober identified. Argument for the sake of argument.


    Well, I sort of agree with you on this as far as usenet goes, but I've
    gotten this same sort of pushback from very dear friends who are/were
    morbidly obese who really, really needed to follow this thing. One of
    them died last June from a heart attack. Age 47. Brilliant mind.
    She had worked for me for 15 years. It really saddens me that I
    couldn't get her to even give this a try. Guess what her first
    counter was when I told her about 2PD- "yeah, but what if you eat 2
    pounds of chocolate a day?" I haven't given up on the other one. He
    sees me daily and has watched this 2PD thing work for me. I'm gonna
    give him an electronic food scale (like mine) for Christmas. ;-)

    >2) "Uh, can you have <insert> on the 2PD or <insert> foods are not listed.
    >It's not a nutritional woe." Bzzzt. Goober identified. Hasn't read the
    >single page of text. Argument for the sake of argument.
    >
    >There are a few other inane identifiers but you get the drift.


    "Yeah, but there is no nutritional guidance."

    >Outside of those that are truly, mentally clueless, the rest of these
    >goobers ought to buy a mirror, stand in front of it, and wage war....with
    >themselves.


    Sometimes I think it is the fault finding tendency we see so much of
    these days, i.e., whatever happens to you, the fault always lies
    elsewhere. "I'm big boned." "It's genetic." "I'm unhappy because of
    that old so and so, and so I eat."

    >I can tell you one thing. Take Christ out of these discussions, I'll bet
    >9/10ths of them go away. Christianity really pisses ppl off. Discussing
    >Christ, not religion, but Christ makes most of the world uneasy and
    >insecure.


    Well, that's for sure. Lots of the opposition seems to come from
    those who have no stake in the issue except to oppose a Christian or
    inclusion of a Christian thought in a posting.

    Joy to the world, the Lord is come.
    Let earth receive her King.

    John
     
  9. John

    John Guest

    On 15 Dec 2004 20:11:03 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

    >"I'm looking forward to this reading about this talk. Let's start
    >right after you can find someone who would/could eat nothing but eggs
    >every day the rest of their life.
    >
    >The 2PD is described in about one page of text. Recipes and menus are
    >not discussed at all. Rather, Dr. Chung simply calls for us to use a
    >just a little bit of common sense. He also calls for us to consult
    >our doctors who, presumably, would offer some detailed nutritional
    >advice if we appear to be in need of it."
    >
    >I too am looking forward to the very promising work that can be built on
    >his intresting observation. There is a rather well known case of a man
    >who eats 25 eggs every day. He is known because he has been the subject
    >of studies about the effect of nutritional fat on blood lipid profiles.


    Well, I guess this just goes to show that you have to be careful what
    you ask for - you just might get it. ;-)

    I found this
    http://snowwhite.med.upenn.edu/lewis/problems/Problem_16.pdf on
    Google. Interesting story but it doesn't quite meet requirements.
    Sorry. Like the guy would have to be over 100 years old today so it
    is unlikely that we can study him any more. It also mentions that it
    was never recorded whether the 25 egg man subsisted _solely_ on the 25
    eggs per day. Also called into question is the man's psychological
    condition.

    On the other hand, he was following the 2PD and he was not in the
    overweight category and seemed healthy. So maybe he is at least an
    "existence proof" that it won't necessarily kill you to follow 2PD
    even in the extreme. ;-)

    >Some people who subsist on the same one or few foods a day would be
    >overjoyed to use eggs instead. His "instructions" are crude in the
    >extreme, devoting most space to how to use the scale with a notebook.
    >Menues etc. is not the question, scientific validity based soley on his
    >"diet" is the point, and as an intresting side play his word play and
    >dancing about when he knows the jig is up, so to speak because the flaws
    >are all too obvious but he can't come to publiclly admit them. Reference
    >to "doctor" is, in addition to himself of course, are advice to take the
    >record to the doctor and to see one if symptoms of low bp persist. My
    >intrest is scientific truthfulness and concern for health and nutritional
    >aspects the diet ignores.


    Don't get too wrapped up in this. After all, the diet is really just
    advice to "eat less." Common sense (that doesn't seem to be so common
    any more.) That, together with some very practical instructions on
    how to go about it in a methodical manner and some guidance about how
    much less you should shoot for. It seems to me that all the other
    diets are the ones that need to do some scientific proving. As Dr.
    Chung says, "Truth is simple."

    >Bty, the "tell your doctor" is proabably in
    >part a concern for liability, don't you think?


    Don't diet programs usually recommend that you see your doctor?

    >Don't rush to judgement,
    >let's see what he and I develope, pray for us.


    Already been done. ;-)

    John
     
  10. Tom

    Tom Guest

    "John" <[email protected]> wrote in message
    news:[email protected]
    > On 14 Dec 2004 23:33:55 GMT, [email protected] wrote:
    >
    >
    > I'm looking forward to this reading about this talk. Let's start
    > right after you can find someone who would/could eat nothing but eggs
    > every day the rest of their life.
    > John



    Check out case #15 about 3/4 of the way down.
    http://www.saltspring.com/capewest/pbl.htm

    Perhaps Dr. Chung has access to these medical journals and can help you.
    It's( New England Journal of Medicine 324:896-900 )

    Here is a student study problem based on the same man. It has a little more
    info.
    http://snowwhite.med.upenn.edu/lewis/problems/Problem_16.pdf

    The uniqueness about this case is that in fact 25 eggs per day is all the
    man ate. The problem with studying him, was that he refused to eat anything
    else. Therefore it could not be determined if low cholesterol was a genetic
    trait or whether it really is true that eating that many eggs does not in
    fact raise a person's own levels because of digestion and conversion. It's
    another one of those things that people say can't be done, but here is an
    old man(88yrs old) who did it.
    Tom
     
  11. I fail to see any of the below relevant to your original of an example of
    eggs eaten. I also note another poster provided info saying he indeed ate
    only eggs, didn't confirm it. See my recent post where a biscuit with
    bacon and cheese and egg is used to illustrate the obvious flaws in the 2
    lb diet as it is presented, "just don't exceed 2 lbs in what you eat".
    Fyi, 25 eggs is more then 2 lbs, Andrew knows all I say is correct and in
    a recent post he finally goes to some length to detail how he modifies it
    in practice according to some of the flaws I have pointed out in posts
    here, he knows, believe me he knows.

    "Google. Interesting story but it doesn't quite meet requirements. Sorry.
    Like the guy would have to be over 100 years old today so it is unlikely
    that we can study him any more. It also mentions that it was never
    recorded whether the 25 egg man subsisted _solely_ on the 25 eggs per day.
    Also called into question is the man's psychological condition.
    On the other hand, he was following the 2PD and he was not in the
    overweight category and seemed healthy. So maybe he is at least an
    "existence proof" that it won't necessarily kill you to follow 2PD
    even in the extreme. ;-)
     
  12. "The 2PD Approach is not extreme though it may be dovetailed with
    something that is (i.e. the Egg diet in this example)."

    Thank you, this example of how the diet is deficient, in addition to the
    several other examples you provide in another post, shows how progress can
    occur when we cooperate. Just saying to ignore thedetails and use weight
    only is not enough, as you and I are now expoloring in order to fully
    realize the potential of your intresting observation. As you list in that
    other post, a great amount of detail must in practice be considered for
    the caloric and health and nutrition needs of each person, the weight
    constraint is only a starting place.
     
  13. [email protected] wrote:
    >
    > I fail to see any of the below relevant to your original of an example of
    > eggs eaten. I also note another poster provided info saying he indeed ate
    > only eggs, didn't confirm it. See my recent post where a biscuit with
    > bacon and cheese and egg is used to illustrate the obvious flaws in the 2
    > lb diet as it is presented, "just don't exceed 2 lbs in what you eat".
    > Fyi, 25 eggs is more then 2 lbs, Andrew knows all I say is correct and in
    > a recent post he finally goes to some length to detail how he modifies it
    > in practice according to some of the flaws I have pointed out in posts
    > here, he knows, believe me he knows.
    >
    > "Google. Interesting story but it doesn't quite meet requirements. Sorry.
    > Like the guy would have to be over 100 years old today so it is unlikely
    > that we can study him any more. It also mentions that it was never
    > recorded whether the 25 egg man subsisted _solely_ on the 25 eggs per day.
    > Also called into question is the man's psychological condition.
    > On the other hand, he was following the 2PD and he was not in the
    > overweight category and seemed healthy. So maybe he is at least an
    > "existence proof" that it won't necessarily kill you to follow 2PD
    > even in the extreme. ;-)


    The 2PD Approach is not extreme though it may be dovetailed with
    something that is (i.e. the Egg diet in this example).

    Hope the above information enlightens you.

    Such is the work being done here for Christ's glory
    (http://makeashorterlink.com/?U1E13130A).


    Servant to the humblest person in the universe,

    Andrew

    --
    Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
    Board-Certified Cardiologist
    http://www.heartmdphd.com/

    **
    Who is the humblest person in the universe?
    http://makeashorterlink.com/?L26062048

    What is all this about?
    http://makeashorterlink.com/?K6F72510A

    Is this spam?
    http://makeashorterlink.com/?D13B21FF9
     
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