Re: [OT] DIY electrical work



A

Arthur Clune

Guest
Peter B <[email protected]> wrote:
: starting a Google search a new one was ordered which arrived 2 days later.
: So much for regs.

The regs don't affect buying (or shouldn't).

There's nothing to stop you fitting your own boiler, but you should
get it signed off by a CORGI registed fitter afterwards if you want
to avoid problems.

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune PGP/GPG Key: http://www.clune.org/pubkey.txt
It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness
 
"Arthur Clune" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> There's nothing to stop you fitting your own boiler, but you should
> get it signed off by a CORGI registed fitter afterwards if you want
> to avoid problems.


I'm vaguely inclined to think the law does prohibit connecting it up to a
gas supply though. Must see if I can find the Regs sometime..

Rich
 
On Thu, 9 Dec 2004 19:39:53 -0000 someone who may be "Richard
Goodman" <[email protected]> wrote this:-

>I'm vaguely inclined to think the law does prohibit connecting it up to a
>gas supply though. Must see if I can find the Regs sometime..


According to
http://www.corgi-gas-safety.com/section_gas_law/the_law.asp

"Only a competent person can carry out work on gas appliances or
fittings. Do-it-yourself work on gas appliances or fittings could be
dangerous and is likely to be illegal."

They are an interested party and therefore likely to have twisted
the law as far as possible in their favour on their website.

The figures at http://www.hse.gov.uk/gas/domestic/statistics.htm
don't convince me that all this red tape has made a dramatic
difference to gas safety.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.
 
David Hansen <[email protected]> wrote:

: According to
: http://www.corgi-gas-safety.com/section_gas_law/the_law.asp

: "Only a competent person can carry out work on gas appliances or
: fittings. Do-it-yourself work on gas appliances or fittings could be
: dangerous and is likely to be illegal."

Notice that they don't say a CORGI registered person has to do this.

My mother's partner recently fitted a new boiler in a house they rent
out. He then got the work checked and signed off my a corgi approved
gasman. Sorted.

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune PGP/GPG Key: http://www.clune.org/pubkey.txt
It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness
 
"Arthur Clune" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> David Hansen <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> : According to
> : http://www.corgi-gas-safety.com/section_gas_law/the_law.asp
>
> : "Only a competent person can carry out work on gas appliances or
> : fittings. Do-it-yourself work on gas appliances or fittings could be
> : dangerous and is likely to be illegal."
>
> Notice that they don't say a CORGI registered person has to do this.
>
> My mother's partner recently fitted a new boiler in a house they rent
> out. He then got the work checked and signed off my a corgi approved
> gasman. Sorted.
>


That it was done, does not mean it was legal. If you can find CORGI gasman
to sign it off as safe then no doubt you've got away with it. However, a bit
of googling suggests gas work is covered by The Gas Safety (Installation and
Use) Regulations 1998. The Regs. require that only a 'competent' person can
do gas 'work'. 'Competent' means approved by the Health & Safety Executive,
which surely does mean CORGI registered. Gas 'work' means installing,
reconnecting, maintaining, servicing, removing etc. a 'gas fitting'. 'Gas
fittings' means pipework, valves .. apparatus and appliances used by
consumers of gas for heating, cooking etc.

So, seems you do have to be CORGI registered to 'install' a boiler. And in
my case, to disconnect the old one. Having said that, making preparations
to install a boiler such as drilling holes in appropriate places for it to
be secured to the wall, and making a suitably sized hole in the wall for the
flue and making good around it it must be ok . But, according to the law,
you must at least use a CORGI registered person to connect the supply pipe,
the flue and the boiler together.

Rich
 
Richard Goodman wrote:
> That it was done, does not mean it was legal. If you can find CORGI
> gasman to sign it off as safe then no doubt you've got away with it.
> However, a bit of googling suggests gas work is covered by The Gas
> Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998. The Regs. require
> that only a 'competent' person can do gas 'work'. 'Competent' means
> approved by the Health & Safety Executive, which surely does mean
> CORGI registered. Gas 'work' means installing, reconnecting,
> maintaining, servicing, removing etc. a 'gas fitting'. 'Gas fittings'
> means pipework, valves .. apparatus and appliances used by consumers
> of gas for heating, cooking etc.
> So, seems you do have to be CORGI registered to 'install' a boiler.


Only if you are installing the boiler or other gas appliances as part of
your business. If you are a keen amateur, you can still install your own gas
equipment - you have to be 'competent', but there is no definition of what
'competent' means. However, all the certificates and labels to state that an
installation is safe are only available to CORGI registered companies (you
need to quote your membership number to buy them); so when you come to sell
your house after a DIY installation, you may have to pay to get everything
certified - and this may cost as much again if there is any remedial work
required.

Regards,

Pete.
 
"PeteC" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> Only if you are installing the boiler or other gas appliances as part of
> your business. If you are a keen amateur, you can still install your own
> gas equipment - you have to be 'competent', but there is no definition of
> what 'competent' means. However, all the certificates and labels to state
> that an installation is safe are only available to CORGI registered
> companies (you need to quote your membership number to buy them); so when
> you come to sell your house after a DIY installation, you may have to pay
> to get everything certified - and this may cost as much again if there is
> any remedial work required.
>


My first inclination was to think you are wrong, but actually I think you
are right. The Regs say that "No person shall carry out any work in relation
to a gas fitting or gas storage vessel unless he is competent to do so."
Then it goes on to a couple of paragraphs dealing with employees and
self-employed person which do effectively make competence synonymous with
CORGI registration - for people undertaking such work as a business. But,
yes, there is nothing to say what 'competence' means for someone not doing
it for reward.

Interesting. Perhaps we shall have a new boiler after all ;)

Rich
 
[snipped]

>> 'Competent' means


[snipped]

..... what exactly?

Exactly.

Do the regs still insist on this word competent? If so, why? Why not
just make it clear, absolutely, that it 'has' to be CORGI and nothing
else, not even competent?

For me, I couldn't give a toss, couldn't give a flying f***. I've been
wanting to change the pipe from my meter to my boiler [which I
installed myself] from 15mm to 22mm for ages - it's a 18m run [and
that's a lot], with several bends, so you can imagine how much
efficiency I was losing. I was hesitent about taking a torch to the
meter [really?] until I watched a plumber doing a similiar procedure
[when I was doing a decorating job] and thought to myself.....'ah,
right, that's how....'

Few days later...

Needless to say, I now have a s***- hot shower, magic. What a
satisfying job that was. Fired up like beauty...

Naughty boy.....sorry couldn't give a ...

Just need to apply the same urgency to my recumbent and I might
actually get it finished....cheapo lever steering ain't painless..

Garry
 
Richard Goodman <[email protected]> wrote:

: flue and making good around it it must be ok . But, according to the law,
: you must at least use a CORGI registered person to connect the supply pipe,
: the flue and the boiler together.

Indeed. But that doesn't mean you can't fit the boiler and connect up the
radiators etc etc. It's the final step that has to be done by a CORGI person.
Which (though I didn't make it clear) was indeed done in this case.

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune PGP/GPG Key: http://www.clune.org/pubkey.txt
It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness
 
"Arthur Clune" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Richard Goodman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> : flue and making good around it it must be ok . But, according to the

law,
> : you must at least use a CORGI registered person to connect the supply

pipe,
> : the flue and the boiler together.
>
> Indeed. But that doesn't mean you can't fit the boiler and connect up the
> radiators etc etc. It's the final step that has to be done by a CORGI

person.
> Which (though I didn't make it clear) was indeed done in this case.


Apologies for repeating what others have mentioned already - it doesn't have
to be done by a CORGI person.

It has to be done by a competent person. CORGI is the standard way of
demonstrating competence, although others exist (eg British Gas fitters
aren't in CORGI afaik), and for personal work you don't have to be certified
by anybody.

Now it may well be sensible to get a CORGI person to look over your
installation before turning the gas on. But you can do all the connections
yourself.

Caveat - the law is slacker than a lot of people think, but this isn't
necessarily a bad thing, as a lot of people are less competent than they
think. So only do this sort of thing if you're _really_ sure - and have some
experience of making joints.

cheers,
clive
 
Clive George <[email protected]> wrote:

: It has to be done by a competent person. CORGI is the standard way of
: demonstrating competence, although others exist (eg British Gas fitters
: aren't in CORGI afaik), and for personal work you don't have to be certified
: by anybody.

This was in a rented house (ie one they rent out) so I think it did have to
be (and was) certified.

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune PGP/GPG Key: http://www.clune.org/pubkey.txt
It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness
 
"Clive George" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Apologies for repeating what others have mentioned already - it doesn't
> have
> to be done by a CORGI person.
>
> It has to be done by a competent person. CORGI is the standard way of
> demonstrating competence, although others exist (eg British Gas fitters
> aren't in CORGI afaik), and for personal work you don't have to be
> certified
> by anybody.
>


You are correct, but one can see where the confusion arises: The law says
two things of relevance to qualification: Firstly, in a general sense, it
requires 'competence'. Secondly, in the sense specific to carrying out work
as an employee or self-employed person, it says they must be in a class of
members approved by the Health & Safety Executive to do that work. This
implicitly suggests that 'competence' = CORGI registration because the HSE
take it as such. Perhaps they also approve people employed by British Gas.
And so everyone else, and particularly gas-fitters themselves, assume or
like to put it about that CORGI registration is necessary to do gas fitting
work. I certainly did, even after reading the Regs, and failing to note the
distinction (between doing it for reward and doing it otherwise than as an
employed person). I have even heard of gas-fitters saying you can't even
turn on your own pilot light or connect a cooker to the supply with a
bayonnet fitting. It's in their interests to say it, although whether they
say it out of ignorance or self-interest is perhaps debatable. But, as you
say, there is no definition of 'competence' for someone doing the work for
themselves, and the law doesn't say actually say that only CORGI registered
people can do gas fitting work.

Rich
 
"Arthur Clune" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Clive George <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> : It has to be done by a competent person. CORGI is the standard way of
> : demonstrating competence, although others exist (eg British Gas fitters
> : aren't in CORGI afaik), and for personal work you don't have to be

certified
> : by anybody.
>
> This was in a rented house (ie one they rent out) so I think it did have

to
> be (and was) certified.


Fair enough - rented houses are different.

cheers,
clive
 
On Thu, 9 Dec 2004, Richard Goodman <[email protected]> wrote:

> of googling suggests gas work is covered by The Gas Safety (Installation and
> Use) Regulations 1998. The Regs. require that only a 'competent' person can
> do gas 'work'. 'Competent' means approved by the Health & Safety Executive,
> which surely does mean CORGI registered.


No it doesn't. Competent means competent. If you can do teh work and
it can pass teh safety inspection, you are demonstrably competent at
the tasks undertaken.

> So, seems you do have to be CORGI registered to 'install' a boiler.


No, you need to be competent. That's what the law says, it's just you
that says CORGI is teh only demonstartion of being competent. If you
look at CORGIs own information, even they don't claim to be the only
way to demosntarte competence, and you can be certain they'd say that
if they could.

> But, according to the law,
> you must at least use a CORGI registered person to connect the supply pipe,
> the flue and the boiler together.


No, that's according to Rich. According to the law, you need to be
competent to do so.

--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|
 
In article <[email protected]>, Arthur Clune wrote:
>It is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness


Possibly not while working on gas equipment....
 
"Ian Smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>> But, according to the law,
>> you must at least use a CORGI registered person to connect the supply
>> pipe,
>> the flue and the boiler together.

>
> No, that's according to Rich. According to the law, you need to be
> competent to do so.


Sheesh, doesn't anyone bother to read my follow up postings... I already
admitted I was wrong. No need to rub it in!

Anyway, one could argue the law does define 'competence' - if you're doing
it as an employed person. So there ;) The problem is taking it to mean a
general condition of competence for all persons, ie other than employees,
which the legislation doesn't actually do - but which gas fitters will be
fond of telling you it does.

Rich
 
On Fri, 10 Dec, Richard Goodman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Sheesh, doesn't anyone bother to read my follow up postings... I already
> admitted I was wrong. No need to rub it in!


Depending how they are threaded and propogated, no, I don't guarantee
to read everthing you've posted before writing a response to any
particular thing. Does anyone?

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|
 
>Ian Smith" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 10 Dec, Richard Goodman <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> Sheesh, doesn't anyone bother to read my follow up postings... I already
>> admitted I was wrong. No need to rub it in!

>
> Depending how they are threaded and propogated, no, I don't guarantee
> to read everthing you've posted before writing a response to any
> particular thing. Does anyone?
>


What, read everything I've posted :) ? Judging by the responses, or usual
lack thereof, I doubt it. They don't know what they're missing ;).

Rich
 
On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 12:27:57 -0000 someone who may be "Richard
Goodman" <[email protected]> wrote this:-

>I have even heard of gas-fitters saying you can't even
>turn on your own pilot light or connect a cooker to the supply with a
>bayonnet fitting. It's in their interests to say it, although whether they
>say it out of ignorance or self-interest is perhaps debatable.


I suspect a mixture of both.

Bayonet fittings (the last time I looked at one) come with
compression joints for connecting to the gas pipe. If one is capable
of making such a joint keep in mains pressure water then one is
capable of making it keep in gas, which is at a lower pressure. Then
all one needs to do is test the pipework for soundness and the job
is done. Well within the skills of a competent DIY person. However,
the other comments about over-estimating one's competence are very
valid.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh | PGP email preferred-key number F566DA0E
I will always explain revoked keys, unless the UK government
prevents me by using the RIP Act 2000.
 
David Hansen wrote:

> Bayonet fittings (the last time I looked at one) come with
> compression joints for connecting to the gas pipe. If one is capable
> of making such a joint keep in mains pressure water then one is
> capable of making it keep in gas, which is at a lower pressure.


That only follows if that seal is not pressure-energised. Such seals are
made effective by the differential pressure across the seal. In that
arrangement, a seal that is completely effective at high pressure can
perform poorly at low pressure. This gives some examples, but there are
others, including common uses of O-rings:

http://www.machinedesign.com/BDE/FLUID/bdefp3/bdefp3_2.html


--
Joe * If I cannot be free I'll be cheap
 

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