Re: OT Is anyone really surprised?

[Bill C]

On Jan 23, 5:50 pm, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jan 23, 1:03 pm, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2008/01/23/4789282-cp.html
>
> Gov't official calls anti-racism conference a 'gong show'
>
> By Stephen Thorne, THE CANADIAN PRESS
> Quoted:
>
> "Canada is interested in combating racism, not promoting it," Kenney
> told The Canadian Press. "We'll attend any conference that is opposed
> to racism and intolerance, not those that actually promote racism and
> intolerance.
>
> "Our considered judgment, having participated in the preparatory
> meetings, was that we were set for a replay of Durban I. And Canada
> has no intention of lending its good name and resources to such a
> systematic promotion of hatred and bigotry."
>
> The 2001 World Conference Against Racism in Durban turned into "a
> circus of intolerance," Kenney said.
>
> Bill C

Wanted to highlight this para since Howard disnissively calls it my
"hobbyhorse":

Furthermore, all of the non-governmental organizations invited to the
first conference have been invited back to the second, including those
that were at the "forefront of the hatred," some of which posted pro-
****** posters at the 2001 gathering.

Bill C
It's amazing that people who would rightly spit on David Duke support
these folks.

 

[Bill C]

On Jan 23, 5:50 pm, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jan 23, 1:03 pm, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2008/01/23/4789282-cp.html
>
> Gov't official calls anti-racism conference a 'gong show'
>
> By Stephen Thorne, THE CANADIAN PRESS
> Quoted:
>
> "Canada is interested in combating racism, not promoting it," Kenney
> told The Canadian Press. "We'll attend any conference that is opposed
> to racism and intolerance, not those that actually promote racism and
> intolerance.
>
> "Our considered judgment, having participated in the preparatory
> meetings, was that we were set for a replay of Durban I. And Canada
> has no intention of lending its good name and resources to such a
> systematic promotion of hatred and bigotry."
>
> The 2001 World Conference Against Racism in Durban turned into "a
> circus of intolerance," Kenney said.
>
> Bill C

Wanted to highlight this para since Howard disnissively calls it my
"hobbyhorse":

Furthermore, all of the non-governmental organizations invited to the
first conference have been invited back to the second, including those
that were at the "forefront of the hatred," some of which posted pro-
****** posters at the 2001 gathering.

Bill C
It's amazing that people who would rightly spit on David Duke support
these folks.

 

[Kurgan Gringioni]

On Jan 23, 10:03 am, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jan 23, 12:50 pm, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 23, 11:10 am, Kurgan Gringioni <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 23, 5:15 am, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > Dumbass -
>
> > > > > If you were a Palestinian and the Israelis were systematically taking
> > > > > away your people's land w/ settlements, what would you do?
>
> > > > > Resist? Or take it?
>
> > > > > thanks,
>
> > > > > K. Gringioni.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > By purposely shooting a venezuelan kid between the shoulderblades who
> > > > was working in a field?
> > > >  By attacking the Olympics? By insisting on the extermination of the
> > > > State and it's people?
> > > >  Both sides are wrong, one is bent on genocide and you seem to support
> > > > that. Get back to me when they drop the extermination bit.
>
> > > Dumbass -
>
> > > I'll ask you once again:
>
> > > If you were a Palestinian and the Israelis were systematically taking
> > > away your people's land w/ settlements, what would you do?
>
> > > Resist? Or take it?
>
> > > thanks,
>
> > > K. Gringioni.
>
> Dumbass you're still trolling but unlike other people here I'll answer
> the direct question. Yes, I'd resist.



Dumbass -


Thank you for answering the question.

Is it correct then, that your issue w/ them is the style of their
resistance, not the fact that they are resisting?


K. Gringioni.

 

[Howard Kveck]

In article <[email protected]>,
Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Jan 23, 5:50 pm, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Jan 23, 1:03 pm, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2008/01/23/4789282-cp.html
> >
> > Gov't official calls anti-racism conference a 'gong show'
> >
> > By Stephen Thorne, THE CANADIAN PRESS
> > Quoted:
> >
> > "Canada is interested in combating racism, not promoting it," Kenney
> > told The Canadian Press. "We'll attend any conference that is opposed
> > to racism and intolerance, not those that actually promote racism and
> > intolerance.
> >
> > "Our considered judgment, having participated in the preparatory
> > meetings, was that we were set for a replay of Durban I. And Canada
> > has no intention of lending its good name and resources to such a
> > systematic promotion of hatred and bigotry."
> >
> > The 2001 World Conference Against Racism in Durban turned into "a
> > circus of intolerance," Kenney said.
> >
> > Bill C
>
> Wanted to highlight this para since Howard disnissively calls it my
> "hobbyhorse":
>
> Furthermore, all of the non-governmental organizations invited to the
> first conference have been invited back to the second, including those
> that were at the "forefront of the hatred," some of which posted pro-
> ****** posters at the 2001 gathering.

Bill, that doesn't have a lot to do with what I was referring to. I am well aware
of the history of the Arabs and their relationship with the Nazi anti-Jewish
business. I think you bring it up in situations where it doesn't really apply as well
as you think it does. The one from a week or so ago is an example of that, to me. The
article I linked to showed that opinons about the US had dropped since 2002 - that
doesn't address the levels prior to then. That was the whole point of the article: it
showed an increase, irrespective of its prior level, and it was in many countries
that can hardly be considered to be part of a Pan-Arabic mindset.

--
tanx,
Howard

Now it's raining pitchforks and women,
But I've already got a pitchfork...

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

 

[Bill C]

On Jan 23, 10:05 pm, Kurgan Gringioni <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jan 23, 10:03 am, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 23, 12:50 pm, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 23, 11:10 am, Kurgan Gringioni <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > On Jan 23, 5:15 am, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > > Dumbass -
>
> > > > > > If you were a Palestinian and the Israelis were systematically taking
> > > > > > away your people's land w/ settlements, what would you do?
>
> > > > > > Resist? Or take it?
>
> > > > > > thanks,
>
> > > > > > K. Gringioni.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > By purposely shooting a venezuelan kid between the shoulderblades who
> > > > > was working in a field?
> > > > >  By attacking the Olympics? By insisting on the extermination ofthe
> > > > > State and it's people?
> > > > >  Both sides are wrong, one is bent on genocide and you seem to support
> > > > > that. Get back to me when they drop the extermination bit.
>
> > > > Dumbass -
>
> > > > I'll ask you once again:
>
> > > > If you were a Palestinian and the Israelis were systematically taking
> > > > away your people's land w/ settlements, what would you do?
>
> > > > Resist? Or take it?
>
> > > > thanks,
>
> > > > K. Gringioni.
>
> > Dumbass you're still trolling but unlike other people here I'll answer
> > the direct question. Yes, I'd resist.
>
> Dumbass -
>
> Thank you for answering the question.
>
> Is it correct then, that your issue w/ them is the style of their
> resistance, not the fact that they are resisting?
>
> K. Gringioni.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

It's a complicated situation, but primarily yes. If they were
attacking military outposts, patrols, checkpoints, etc...they'd be a
lot better off in the PR war too.
Bill C

 

[Bill C]

On Jan 24, 7:44 am, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jan 23, 10:05 pm, Kurgan Gringioni <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 23, 10:03 am, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 23, 12:50 pm, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > On Jan 23, 11:10 am, Kurgan Gringioni <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Jan 23, 5:15 am, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > Dumbass -
>
> > > > > > > If you were a Palestinian and the Israelis were systematicallytaking
> > > > > > > away your people's land w/ settlements, what would you do?
>
> > > > > > > Resist? Or take it?
>
> > > > > > > thanks,
>
> > > > > > > K. Gringioni.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > > By purposely shooting a venezuelan kid between the shoulderblades who
> > > > > > was working in a field?
> > > > > >  By attacking the Olympics? By insisting on the extermination of the
> > > > > > State and it's people?
> > > > > >  Both sides are wrong, one is bent on genocide and you seem tosupport
> > > > > > that. Get back to me when they drop the extermination bit.
>
> > > > > Dumbass -
>
> > > > > I'll ask you once again:
>
> > > > > If you were a Palestinian and the Israelis were systematically taking
> > > > > away your people's land w/ settlements, what would you do?
>
> > > > > Resist? Or take it?
>
> > > > > thanks,
>
> > > > > K. Gringioni.
>
> > > Dumbass you're still trolling but unlike other people here I'll answer
> > > the direct question. Yes, I'd resist.
>
> > Dumbass -
>
> > Thank you for answering the question.
>
> > Is it correct then, that your issue w/ them is the style of their
> > resistance, not the fact that they are resisting?
>
> > K. Gringioni.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
>  It's a complicated situation, but primarily yes. If they were
> attacking military outposts, patrols, checkpoints, etc...they'd be a
> lot better off in the PR war too.
>  Bill C- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Before we get off in the bushes on this, and once again language is a
problem. Just because I support their "right" to resist in NO way
means I support their cause. It's every free human's "right" to fight
for it's beliefs, and the way of life it would like. Exercising those
"rights", and how they are exercised is going to have consequences,
and may very well conflict with others. That has to be accepted too.
There isn't, and hasn't been, a single conflict out there where I
can't see the reasoning for the fight from both sides. I might even
have SOME sympathy for parts of the reasoning, but that doesn't
preclude me from making my own choice of who to support. In the Pal's
case the extermination plank, choosing to attack civilians as the
primary target, and clinging to Nazi values makes their case a non-
starter for me despite a lot of sympathy points in their favor. Abbas
is tuck walking a tightrope between peace, and a new Pal view, and the
hardline Hamas types. Given the massive lack of Arab aid to Abbas and
his govt., despite his pleas it's pretty obvious to me where the
sentiment in the region lies despite the rhetoric.
The worst thing for the militants would be a successful Abbas led
area, and none of the Arab states seem to want to make this happen,
let alone the militants.
Bill C

 

[Tom Kunich]

"Bill C" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:f9a314df-1f43-48ca-9238-1c0f1435fad8@m34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
On Jan 23, 10:05 pm, Kurgan Gringioni <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > Is it correct then, that your issue w/ them is the style of their
> > resistance, not the fact that they are resisting?
>
> It's a complicated situation, but primarily yes. If they were
> attacking military outposts, patrols, checkpoints, etc...they'd be a
> lot better off in the PR war too.

This has nothing to do with PR. Murdering women and children and other
standers-by isn't fighting injustice, it's simply murder and that's what
Chang is approving of.

 

[Kurgan Gringioni]

On Jan 24, 4:44 am, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jan 23, 10:05 pm, Kurgan Gringioni <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 23, 10:03 am, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 23, 12:50 pm, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > On Jan 23, 11:10 am, Kurgan Gringioni <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Jan 23, 5:15 am, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > Dumbass -
>
> > > > > > > If you were a Palestinian and the Israelis were systematicallytaking
> > > > > > > away your people's land w/ settlements, what would you do?
>
> > > > > > > Resist? Or take it?
>
> > > > > > > thanks,
>
> > > > > > > K. Gringioni.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > > By purposely shooting a venezuelan kid between the shoulderblades who
> > > > > > was working in a field?
> > > > > >  By attacking the Olympics? By insisting on the extermination of the
> > > > > > State and it's people?
> > > > > >  Both sides are wrong, one is bent on genocide and you seem tosupport
> > > > > > that. Get back to me when they drop the extermination bit.
>
> > > > > Dumbass -
>
> > > > > I'll ask you once again:
>
> > > > > If you were a Palestinian and the Israelis were systematically taking
> > > > > away your people's land w/ settlements, what would you do?
>
> > > > > Resist? Or take it?
>
> > > > > thanks,
>
> > > > > K. Gringioni.
>
> > > Dumbass you're still trolling but unlike other people here I'll answer
> > > the direct question. Yes, I'd resist.
>
> > Dumbass -
>
> > Thank you for answering the question.
>
> > Is it correct then, that your issue w/ them is the style of their
> > resistance, not the fact that they are resisting?
>
> > K. Gringioni.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
>  It's a complicated situation, but primarily yes. If they were
> attacking military outposts, patrols, checkpoints, etc...they'd be a
> lot better off in the PR war too.



Dumbass -


I agree.


thanks,

K. Gringioni.

 

[Kurgan Gringioni]

On Jan 24, 7:53 am, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jan 24, 7:44 am, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 23, 10:05 pm, Kurgan Gringioni <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 23, 10:03 am, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > On Jan 23, 12:50 pm, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Jan 23, 11:10 am, Kurgan Gringioni <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > > On Jan 23, 5:15 am, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > > > > Dumbass -
>
> > > > > > > > If you were a Palestinian and the Israelis were systematically taking
> > > > > > > > away your people's land w/ settlements, what would you do?
>
> > > > > > > > Resist? Or take it?
>
> > > > > > > > thanks,
>
> > > > > > > > K. Gringioni.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > > > > > By purposely shooting a venezuelan kid between the shoulderblades who
> > > > > > > was working in a field?
> > > > > > >  By attacking the Olympics? By insisting on the extermination of the
> > > > > > > State and it's people?
> > > > > > >  Both sides are wrong, one is bent on genocide and you seem to support
> > > > > > > that. Get back to me when they drop the extermination bit.
>
> > > > > > Dumbass -
>
> > > > > > I'll ask you once again:
>
> > > > > > If you were a Palestinian and the Israelis were systematically taking
> > > > > > away your people's land w/ settlements, what would you do?
>
> > > > > > Resist? Or take it?
>
> > > > > > thanks,
>
> > > > > > K. Gringioni.
>
> > > > Dumbass you're still trolling but unlike other people here I'll answer
> > > > the direct question. Yes, I'd resist.
>
> > > Dumbass -
>
> > > Thank you for answering the question.
>
> > > Is it correct then, that your issue w/ them is the style of their
> > > resistance, not the fact that they are resisting?
>
> > > K. Gringioni.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> >  It's a complicated situation, but primarily yes. If they were
> > attacking military outposts, patrols, checkpoints, etc...they'd be a
> > lot better off in the PR war too.
> >  Bill C- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Before we get off in the bushes on this, and once again language is a
> problem. Just because I support their "right" to resist in NO way
> means I support their cause.


Dumbass -


You think the settlements are OK?

Remember, the intifada ("uprising") started w/ teenagers throwing
rocks. Israel continued to expand. As time went on, the resistance got
more and more violent.

The settlements are not military settlements. They are occupied by
Israeli civilians, many of them Jewish immigrants from Eastern Europe
after the fall of the Iron Curtain. The Palestinian land is being
taken by civilians, the military only protects the civilians. It's why
the Palestinians feel justified in taking civilian lives.

You are correct, they'd win the PR war more if they attacked only
military outposts, but those people are mostly expressing their rage
at their extreme disenfranchisement. They have no country, no economy,
no hope for the future and their land is being systematically taken
away.


thanks,

K. Gringioni.

 

[Howard Kveck]

In article <51e35464-5797-4f2a-b3b0-f9b4edebcf73@n20g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:

> Before we get off in the bushes on this, and once again language is a
> problem. Just because I support their "right" to resist in NO way
> means I support their cause. It's every free human's "right" to fight
> for it's beliefs, and the way of life it would like. Exercising those
> "rights", and how they are exercised is going to have consequences,
> and may very well conflict with others. That has to be accepted too.
> There isn't, and hasn't been, a single conflict out there where I
> can't see the reasoning for the fight from both sides. I might even
> have SOME sympathy for parts of the reasoning, but that doesn't
> preclude me from making my own choice of who to support. In the Pal's
> case the extermination plank, choosing to attack civilians as the
> primary target, and clinging to Nazi values makes their case a non-
> starter for me despite a lot of sympathy points in their favor.

Those positions are, for the most part, those of the leadership and the militants
who support them, not so much the regular Palestinian people. As Henry has pointed
out, the conditions that they're living in are not particularly conducive to them
having a great opinion of Israel. Tom's historical revisionism notwithstanding, they
had been living in what is now Israel, they had homes, jobs, businesses, orchards,
etc. that they no longer have. I agree with you that the tactics of the militants
(attacking civilians) is ****, but Henry has a good point as far as why they do that
(the settlements are notorious for causing problems with existing Palestinian
viillages inre: water, food and fuel supplies being seriously disrupted). One other
factor that doesn't help the Israelis with respect to the Palestinian people is the
collective punishment factor.

--
tanx,
Howard

Now it's raining pitchforks and women,
But I've already got a pitchfork...

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

 

[Bill C]

On Jan 25, 2:22 am, Howard Kveck <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article <51e35464-5797-4f2a-b3b0-f9b4edebc...@n20g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
>  Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Before we get off in the bushes on this, and once again language is a
> > problem. Just because I support their "right" to resist in NO way
> > means I support their cause. It's every free human's "right" to fight
> > for it's beliefs, and the way of life it would like. Exercising those
> > "rights", and how they are exercised is going to have consequences,
> > and may very well conflict with others. That has to be accepted too.
> >  There isn't, and hasn't been, a single conflict out there where I
> > can't see the reasoning for the fight from both sides. I might even
> > have SOME sympathy for parts of the reasoning, but that doesn't
> > preclude me from making my own choice of who to support. In the Pal's
> > case the extermination plank, choosing to attack civilians as the
> > primary target, and clinging to Nazi values makes their case a non-
> > starter for me despite a lot of sympathy points in their favor.
>
>    Those positions are, for the most part, those of the leadership andthe militants
> who support them, not so much the regular Palestinian people. As Henry haspointed
> out, the conditions that they're living in are not particularly conducive to them
> having a great opinion of Israel. Tom's historical revisionism notwithstanding, they
> had been living in what is now Israel, they had homes, jobs, businesses, orchards,
> etc. that they no longer have. I agree with you that the tactics of the militants
> (attacking civilians) is ****, but Henry has a good point as far as why they do that
> (the settlements are notorious for causing problems with existing Palestinian
> viillages inre: water, food and fuel supplies being seriously disrupted). One other
> factor that doesn't help the Israelis with respect to the Palestinian people is the
> collective punishment factor.
>
> --
>                               tanx,
>                                Howard
>
>                    Now it's raining pitchforks and women,
>                      But I've already got a pitchfork...
>
>                      remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Howard do you consider the people of the US responsible for our
leaderships behavior?
Bill C

 

[Kurgan Gringioni]

On Jan 25, 4:35 am, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jan 25, 2:22 am, Howard Kveck <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > In article <51e35464-5797-4f2a-b3b0-f9b4edebc...@n20g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
> >  Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > Before we get off in the bushes on this, and once again language is a
> > > problem. Just because I support their "right" to resist in NO way
> > > means I support their cause. It's every free human's "right" to fight
> > > for it's beliefs, and the way of life it would like. Exercising those
> > > "rights", and how they are exercised is going to have consequences,
> > > and may very well conflict with others. That has to be accepted too.
> > >  There isn't, and hasn't been, a single conflict out there where I
> > > can't see the reasoning for the fight from both sides. I might even
> > > have SOME sympathy for parts of the reasoning, but that doesn't
> > > preclude me from making my own choice of who to support. In the Pal's
> > > case the extermination plank, choosing to attack civilians as the
> > > primary target, and clinging to Nazi values makes their case a non-
> > > starter for me despite a lot of sympathy points in their favor.
>
> >    Those positions are, for the most part, those of the leadership and the militants
> > who support them, not so much the regular Palestinian people. As Henry has pointed
> > out, the conditions that they're living in are not particularly conducive to them
> > having a great opinion of Israel. Tom's historical revisionism notwithstanding, they
> > had been living in what is now Israel, they had homes, jobs, businesses,orchards,
> > etc. that they no longer have. I agree with you that the tactics of the militants
> > (attacking civilians) is ****, but Henry has a good point as far as why they do that
> > (the settlements are notorious for causing problems with existing Palestinian
> > viillages inre: water, food and fuel supplies being seriously disrupted).. One other
> > factor that doesn't help the Israelis with respect to the Palestinian people is the
> > collective punishment factor.
>
> > --
> >                               tanx,
> >                                Howard
>
> >                    Now it's raining pitchforks and women,
> >                      But I've already got a pitchfork...
>
> >                      remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
>
> Howard do you consider the people of the US responsible for our
> leaderships behavior?



Dumbass -


Most people don't make that link. If you travel around the world
recently you'd see the US government is despised by foreigners, yet
they still like Americans.

The Iraq War has really sullied the government's reputation. 90% of
the world opinion was against it and it, the government does it
anyways, and it turns out the government's justifications for invading
were false.


thanks,

K. Gringioni.

 

[Bill C]

On Jan 25, 7:47 am, Kurgan Gringioni <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jan 25, 4:35 am, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 25, 2:22 am, Howard Kveck <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > In article <51e35464-5797-4f2a-b3b0-f9b4edebc...@n20g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
> > >  Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > Before we get off in the bushes on this, and once again language is a
> > > > problem. Just because I support their "right" to resist in NO way
> > > > means I support their cause. It's every free human's "right" to fight
> > > > for it's beliefs, and the way of life it would like. Exercising those
> > > > "rights", and how they are exercised is going to have consequences,
> > > > and may very well conflict with others. That has to be accepted too.
> > > >  There isn't, and hasn't been, a single conflict out there where I
> > > > can't see the reasoning for the fight from both sides. I might even
> > > > have SOME sympathy for parts of the reasoning, but that doesn't
> > > > preclude me from making my own choice of who to support. In the Pal's
> > > > case the extermination plank, choosing to attack civilians as the
> > > > primary target, and clinging to Nazi values makes their case a non-
> > > > starter for me despite a lot of sympathy points in their favor.
>
> > >    Those positions are, for the most part, those of the leadershipand the militants
> > > who support them, not so much the regular Palestinian people. As Henryhas pointed
> > > out, the conditions that they're living in are not particularly conducive to them
> > > having a great opinion of Israel. Tom's historical revisionism notwithstanding, they
> > > had been living in what is now Israel, they had homes, jobs, businesses, orchards,
> > > etc. that they no longer have. I agree with you that the tactics of the militants
> > > (attacking civilians) is ****, but Henry has a good point as far as why they do that
> > > (the settlements are notorious for causing problems with existing Palestinian
> > > viillages inre: water, food and fuel supplies being seriously disrupted). One other
> > > factor that doesn't help the Israelis with respect to the Palestinian people is the
> > > collective punishment factor.
>
> > > --
> > >                               tanx,
> > >                                Howard
>
> > >                    Now it's raining pitchforks andwomen,
> > >                      But I've already got a pitchfork...
>
> > >                      remove YOUR SHOES to reply,ok?
>
> > Howard do you consider the people of the US responsible for our
> > leaderships behavior?
>
> Dumbass -
>
> Most people don't make that link. If you travel around the world
> recently you'd see the US government is despised by foreigners, yet
> they still like Americans.
>
> The Iraq War has really sullied the government's reputation. 90% of
> the world opinion was against it and it, the government does it
> anyways, and it turns out the government's justifications for invading
> were false.
>
> thanks,
>
> K. Gringioni.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Dumbass we are responsible. Not my fault people can't see it.
Bill C

 

[Kurgan Gringioni]

On Jan 25, 5:04 am, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jan 25, 7:47 am, Kurgan Gringioni <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 25, 4:35 am, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 25, 2:22 am, Howard Kveck <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > In article <51e35464-5797-4f2a-b3b0-f9b4edebc...@n20g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
> > > >  Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > Before we get off in the bushes on this, and once again language is a
> > > > > problem. Just because I support their "right" to resist in NO way
> > > > > means I support their cause. It's every free human's "right" to fight
> > > > > for it's beliefs, and the way of life it would like. Exercising those
> > > > > "rights", and how they are exercised is going to have consequences,
> > > > > and may very well conflict with others. That has to be accepted too.
> > > > >  There isn't, and hasn't been, a single conflict out there whereI
> > > > > can't see the reasoning for the fight from both sides. I might even
> > > > > have SOME sympathy for parts of the reasoning, but that doesn't
> > > > > preclude me from making my own choice of who to support. In the Pal's
> > > > > case the extermination plank, choosing to attack civilians as the
> > > > > primary target, and clinging to Nazi values makes their case a non-
> > > > > starter for me despite a lot of sympathy points in their favor.
>
> > > >    Those positions are, for the most part, those of the leadership and the militants
> > > > who support them, not so much the regular Palestinian people. As Henry has pointed
> > > > out, the conditions that they're living in are not particularly conducive to them
> > > > having a great opinion of Israel. Tom's historical revisionism notwithstanding, they
> > > > had been living in what is now Israel, they had homes, jobs, businesses, orchards,
> > > > etc. that they no longer have. I agree with you that the tactics of the militants
> > > > (attacking civilians) is ****, but Henry has a good point as far as why they do that
> > > > (the settlements are notorious for causing problems with existing Palestinian
> > > > viillages inre: water, food and fuel supplies being seriously disrupted). One other
> > > > factor that doesn't help the Israelis with respect to the Palestinian people is the
> > > > collective punishment factor.
>
> > > > --
> > > >                               tanx,
> > > >                                Howard
>
> > > >                    Now it's raining pitchforks and women,
> > > >                      But I've already got a pitchfork...
>
> > > >                      remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
>
> > > Howard do you consider the people of the US responsible for our
> > > leaderships behavior?
>
> > Dumbass -
>
> > Most people don't make that link. If you travel around the world
> > recently you'd see the US government is despised by foreigners, yet
> > they still like Americans.
>
> > The Iraq War has really sullied the government's reputation. 90% of
> > the world opinion was against it and it, the government does it
> > anyways, and it turns out the government's justifications for invading
> > were false.
>
> > thanks,
>
> > K. Gringioni.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Dumbass we are responsible. Not my fault people can't see it.



Dumbass -

I'm not. I was against it.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

 

[Bret]

On Jan 25, 10:08 am, Kurgan Gringioni <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jan 25, 5:04 am, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 25, 7:47 am, Kurgan Gringioni <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 25, 4:35 am, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > On Jan 25, 2:22 am, Howard Kveck <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > In article <51e35464-5797-4f2a-b3b0-f9b4edebc...@n20g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
> > > > >  Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > > Before we get off in the bushes on this, and once again languageis a
> > > > > > problem. Just because I support their "right" to resist in NO way
> > > > > > means I support their cause. It's every free human's "right" to fight
> > > > > > for it's beliefs, and the way of life it would like. Exercising those
> > > > > > "rights", and how they are exercised is going to have consequences,
> > > > > > and may very well conflict with others. That has to be accepted too.
> > > > > >  There isn't, and hasn't been, a single conflict out there where I
> > > > > > can't see the reasoning for the fight from both sides. I might even
> > > > > > have SOME sympathy for parts of the reasoning, but that doesn't
> > > > > > preclude me from making my own choice of who to support. In the Pal's
> > > > > > case the extermination plank, choosing to attack civilians as the
> > > > > > primary target, and clinging to Nazi values makes their case a non-
> > > > > > starter for me despite a lot of sympathy points in their favor.
>
> > > > >    Those positions are, for the most part, those of the leadership and the militants
> > > > > who support them, not so much the regular Palestinian people. As Henry has pointed
> > > > > out, the conditions that they're living in are not particularly conducive to them
> > > > > having a great opinion of Israel. Tom's historical revisionism notwithstanding, they
> > > > > had been living in what is now Israel, they had homes, jobs, businesses, orchards,
> > > > > etc. that they no longer have. I agree with you that the tactics of the militants
> > > > > (attacking civilians) is ****, but Henry has a good point as far as why they do that
> > > > > (the settlements are notorious for causing problems with existing Palestinian
> > > > > viillages inre: water, food and fuel supplies being seriously disrupted). One other
> > > > > factor that doesn't help the Israelis with respect to the Palestinian people is the
> > > > > collective punishment factor.
>
> > > > > --
> > > > >                               tanx,
> > > > >                                Howard
>
> > > > >                    Now it's raining pitchforksand women,
> > > > >                      But I've already got a pitchfork...
>
> > > > >                      remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
>
> > > > Howard do you consider the people of the US responsible for our
> > > > leaderships behavior?
>
> > > Dumbass -
>
> > > Most people don't make that link. If you travel around the world
> > > recently you'd see the US government is despised by foreigners, yet
> > > they still like Americans.
>
> > > The Iraq War has really sullied the government's reputation. 90% of
> > > the world opinion was against it and it, the government does it
> > > anyways, and it turns out the government's justifications for invading
> > > were false.
>
> > > thanks,
>
> > > K. Gringioni.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Dumbass we are responsible. Not my fault people can't see it.
>
> Dumbass -
>
> I'm not. I was against it.
>
> thanks,
>
> K. Gringioni.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert-20080124.html

 

[Bill C]

On Jan 25, 12:08 pm, Kurgan Gringioni <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jan 25, 5:04 am, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 25, 7:47 am, Kurgan Gringioni <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 25, 4:35 am, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > On Jan 25, 2:22 am, Howard Kveck <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > In article <51e35464-5797-4f2a-b3b0-f9b4edebc...@n20g2000hsh.googlegroups.com>,
> > > > >  Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > > > > Before we get off in the bushes on this, and once again languageis a
> > > > > > problem. Just because I support their "right" to resist in NO way
> > > > > > means I support their cause. It's every free human's "right" to fight
> > > > > > for it's beliefs, and the way of life it would like. Exercising those
> > > > > > "rights", and how they are exercised is going to have consequences,
> > > > > > and may very well conflict with others. That has to be accepted too.
> > > > > >  There isn't, and hasn't been, a single conflict out there where I
> > > > > > can't see the reasoning for the fight from both sides. I might even
> > > > > > have SOME sympathy for parts of the reasoning, but that doesn't
> > > > > > preclude me from making my own choice of who to support. In the Pal's
> > > > > > case the extermination plank, choosing to attack civilians as the
> > > > > > primary target, and clinging to Nazi values makes their case a non-
> > > > > > starter for me despite a lot of sympathy points in their favor.
>
> > > > >    Those positions are, for the most part, those of the leadership and the militants
> > > > > who support them, not so much the regular Palestinian people. As Henry has pointed
> > > > > out, the conditions that they're living in are not particularly conducive to them
> > > > > having a great opinion of Israel. Tom's historical revisionism notwithstanding, they
> > > > > had been living in what is now Israel, they had homes, jobs, businesses, orchards,
> > > > > etc. that they no longer have. I agree with you that the tactics of the militants
> > > > > (attacking civilians) is ****, but Henry has a good point as far as why they do that
> > > > > (the settlements are notorious for causing problems with existing Palestinian
> > > > > viillages inre: water, food and fuel supplies being seriously disrupted). One other
> > > > > factor that doesn't help the Israelis with respect to the Palestinian people is the
> > > > > collective punishment factor.
>
> > > > > --
> > > > >                               tanx,
> > > > >                                Howard
>
> > > > >                    Now it's raining pitchforksand women,
> > > > >                      But I've already got a pitchfork...
>
> > > > >                      remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
>
> > > > Howard do you consider the people of the US responsible for our
> > > > leaderships behavior?
>
> > > Dumbass -
>
> > > Most people don't make that link. If you travel around the world
> > > recently you'd see the US government is despised by foreigners, yet
> > > they still like Americans.
>
> > > The Iraq War has really sullied the government's reputation. 90% of
> > > the world opinion was against it and it, the government does it
> > > anyways, and it turns out the government's justifications for invading
> > > were false.
>
> > > thanks,
>
> > > K. Gringioni.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Dumbass we are responsible. Not my fault people can't see it.
>
> Dumbass -
>
> I'm not. I was against it.
>
> thanks,
>
> K. Gringioni.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Hey Dude the paper doesn't say. Some kinda people, somewhere, maybe...

The Constitution of the United States of America

We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect
union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the
common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings
of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish
this Constitution for the United States of America.

The collective people ARE the government and responsible for it.
Bill C

 

[Bill C]

On Jan 25, 1:14 pm, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> > Dumbass -
>
> > I'm not. I was against it.
>
> > thanks,
>
> > K. Gringioni.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Hey Dude the paper doesn't say. Some kinda people, somewhere, maybe...
>
> The Constitution of the United States of America
>
> We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect
> union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the
> common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings
> of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish
> this Constitution for the United States of America.
>
> The collective people ARE the government and responsible for it.
>  Bill C- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

We've trotted out the shitty candidates, we've sent shitheads to our
State governments, we've allowed a handful of folks to set our policy,
most Americans don't pay any damned attention, and are even less
informed, especially if they get their info from network TV, and
talking heads.
When was the last time you saw a "civics" class in school?
It's all OUR faults.
Reasonable democracy requires informed, responsible participation.
We, as a citizenry, have failed pretty miserably.
Bill C

 

[SLAVE of THE STATE]

On Jan 25, 4:47 am, Kurgan Gringioni <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jan 25, 4:35 am, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:

> > Howard do you consider the people of the US responsible for our
> > leaderships behavior?
>
> Dumbass -
>
> Most people don't make that link. If you travel around the world
> recently you'd see the US government is despised by foreigners, yet
> they still like Americans.

Dumbass,

I too hate that retarded but infinitely repeated conflation.

Your's truly,
SLAVE


"SOME writers have so confounded society with government, as to leave
little or no distinction between them; whereas they are not only
different, but have different origins. Society is produced by our
wants, and government by our wickedness; the former promotes our
happiness POSITIVELY by uniting our affections, the latter NEGATIVELY
by restraining our vices. The one encourages intercourse, the other
creates distinctions. The first is a patron, the last a punisher." --
Paine, ComSense (rather than conflated NonSense)

 

[Howard Kveck]

In article <[email protected]>,
Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Jan 25, 1:14 pm, Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> > > Dumbass -
> >
> > > I'm not. I was against it.
> >
> > > thanks,
> >
> > > K. Gringioni.- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > > - Show quoted text -
> >
> > Hey Dude the paper doesn't say. Some kinda people, somewhere, maybe...
> >
> > The Constitution of the United States of America
> >
> > We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect
> > union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the
> > common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings
> > of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish
> > this Constitution for the United States of America.
> >
> > The collective people ARE the government and responsible for it.
> >  Bill C- Hide quoted text -
> >
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> We've trotted out the shitty candidates, we've sent shitheads to our
> State governments, we've allowed a handful of folks to set our policy,
> most Americans don't pay any damned attention, and are even less
> informed, especially if they get their info from network TV, and
> talking heads.
> When was the last time you saw a "civics" class in school?
> It's all OUR faults.
> Reasonable democracy requires informed, responsible participation.
> We, as a citizenry, have failed pretty miserably.

Bill, almost 70% of the US population wants us out of Iraq but we'll be there for
ages. Getting us out of Iraq was one of the reasons that the GOP got its ass handed
to it in '06 but the dead-enders and the Bush admin. are preventing what that 70%
want to happen from happening.

--
tanx,
Howard

Now it's raining pitchforks and women,
But I've already got a pitchfork...

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

 

[Howard Kveck]

In article <c13e0086-fee1-4fa8-8b1f-0e2765802e79@v29g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>,
Bill C <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Jan 25, 2:22 am, Howard Kveck <[email protected]> wrote:

> >    Those positions are, for the most part, those of the leadership and the
> > militants who support them, not so much the regular Palestinian people. As Henry has
> > pointed out, the conditions that they're living in are not particularly conducive
> > to them having a great opinion of Israel. Tom's historical revisionism
> > notwithstanding, they had been living in what is now Israel, they had homes, jobs,
> > businesses, orchards, etc. that they no longer have. I agree with you that the
> > tactics of the militants (attacking civilians) is ****, but Henry has a good point
> > as far as why they do that (the settlements are notorious for causing problems with
> > existing Palestinian viillages inre: water, food and fuel supplies being seriously
> > disrupted). One other factor that doesn't help the Israelis with respect to the
> > Palestinian people is the collective punishment factor.

> Howard do you consider the people of the US responsible for our
> leaderships behavior?

I believe there is a significant difference in the dynamic of how the people of
the US and the Palestinians work with our/their leaders. Yes, we elect ours but they
frequently (perhaps mostly) don't really respond to the public. Case in point: almost
70% of the US population want us out of Iraq and we'll be there for ages.

--
tanx,
Howard

Now it's raining pitchforks and women,
But I've already got a pitchfork...

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?