Re: Paul Smith

[Tom Crispin]

On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 13:09:13 -0000, "Brimstone"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>>> 2.. Cyclist should dismount if they are waiting at a junction and a
>>> lorry positions itself to their right at junctions.
>>
>> Eh!? And climb over the railings?
>>
>> How about those who cause the deaths to take some responsibility.
>>
>If someone is crushed by a lorry after pulling away from traffic lights then
>they are the architect of their own misfortune.

Are you going to justify that remark?

 

[Brimstone]

Tom Crispin wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 13:09:13 -0000, "Brimstone"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>>> 2.. Cyclist should dismount if they are waiting at a junction and
>>>> a lorry positions itself to their right at junctions.
>>>
>>> Eh!? And climb over the railings?
>>>
>>> How about those who cause the deaths to take some responsibility.
>>>
>> If someone is crushed by a lorry after pulling away from traffic
>> lights then they are the architect of their own misfortune.
>
> Are you going to justify that remark?

If you are a cycling instructor then it should be blindingly obvious to you.

But the general thrust is quite simple. The lorry is bigger than the
cyclist. Keep clear.

 

[Peter Clinch]

Brimstone wrote:

> If you are a cycling instructor then it should be blindingly obvious to you.
>
> But the general thrust is quite simple. The lorry is bigger than the
> cyclist. Keep clear.

If you ever use the roads it should be blindingly obvious that you
don't always get to choose.

So let's say I'm at some lights, just behind the ASL and after I
got there an HGV pulls up behind me. The lights change but I stay
put a moment (maybe I'm turning right and the way isn't clear yet)
and the truck rolls over me because the drver's on the 'phone and
didn't look down... That's all my fault, I should have seen it
coming and done something differently?[1]

Pete.

[1] What, exactly? Perhaps you'd let us know as you seem to be
know more about it than the qualified instructors here (I'm one
too, btw).
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Ian Smith]

On Sun, 16 Dec, Brimstone <[email protected]> wrote:
> Tom Crispin wrote:
> > On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 13:09:13 -0000, "Brimstone"
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>>> 2.. Cyclist should dismount if they are waiting at a junction
> >>>> and a lorry positions itself to their right at junctions.
> >>>
> >>> Eh!? And climb over the railings?
> >>>
> >>> How about those who cause the deaths to take some responsibility.
> >>>
> >> If someone is crushed by a lorry after pulling away from traffic
> >> lights then they are the architect of their own misfortune.
> >
> > Are you going to justify that remark?
>
> If you are a cycling instructor then it should be blindingly obvious to you.
>
> But the general thrust is quite simple. The lorry is bigger than the
> cyclist. Keep clear.

So imagine I'm stopped at traffic lights and a lorry pulls up - what
am I supposed to do in your fairy-tale world? Just disappear?
Evaporate into thin air? Or do you actually think I should dismount
and climb over the railings, taking my bike with me?

Perhaps you think I should telepathically disintegrate the lorry?

Idiot.

--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

 

[Simon Brooke]

Brimstone wrote:

> Tom Crispin wrote:
>> On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 13:09:13 -0000, "Brimstone"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>>> 2.. Cyclist should dismount if they are waiting at a junction and
>>>>> a lorry positions itself to their right at junctions.
>>>>
>>>> Eh!? And climb over the railings?
>>>>
>>>> How about those who cause the deaths to take some responsibility.
>>>>
>>> If someone is crushed by a lorry after pulling away from traffic
>>> lights then they are the architect of their own misfortune.
>>
>> Are you going to justify that remark?
>
> If you are a cycling instructor then it should be blindingly obvious to
> you.
>
> But the general thrust is quite simple. The lorry is bigger than the
> cyclist. Keep clear.

Is the wrong answer.

The law is quite simple: the cyclist has a right to be on the road, the
truck driver has a licence. The licence can (and in this case should) be
taken away; the right can't.

Whether or not the cyclist is obeying the law, it is the duty of every other
road user (including the cyclist, of course) to avoid a collision. However,
if the cyclist was obeying the law, the truck driver hasn't any defence.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Due to financial constraints, the light at the end of the tunnel
has been switched off.

 

[NM]

Ian Smith wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Dec, Brimstone <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Tom Crispin wrote:
>>> On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 13:09:13 -0000, "Brimstone"
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> 2.. Cyclist should dismount if they are waiting at a junction
>>>>>> and a lorry positions itself to their right at junctions.
>>>>> Eh!? And climb over the railings?
>>>>>
>>>>> How about those who cause the deaths to take some responsibility.
>>>>>
>>>> If someone is crushed by a lorry after pulling away from traffic
>>>> lights then they are the architect of their own misfortune.
>>> Are you going to justify that remark?
>> If you are a cycling instructor then it should be blindingly obvious to you.
>>
>> But the general thrust is quite simple. The lorry is bigger than the
>> cyclist. Keep clear.
>
> So imagine I'm stopped at traffic lights and a lorry pulls up - what
> am I supposed to do in your fairy-tale world? Just disappear?
> Evaporate into thin air? Or do you actually think I should dismount
> and climb over the railings, taking my bike with me?

If it was a case of being killed or jumping over I'd go for the olympic
record.

> Perhaps you think I should telepathically disintegrate the lorry?

Perhaps you should take more care about getting into such situations.

> Idiot.

Agreed.

 

[MrBitsy]

Tom Crispin wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 13:09:13 -0000, "Brimstone"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>>> 2.. Cyclist should dismount if they are waiting at a junction and
>>>> a lorry positions itself to their right at junctions.
>>>
>>> Eh!? And climb over the railings?
>>>
>>> How about those who cause the deaths to take some responsibility.
>>>
>> If someone is crushed by a lorry after pulling away from traffic
>> lights then they are the architect of their own misfortune.
>
> Are you going to justify that remark?

My personal thought on this is it takes two to create an incident #1. I
always partly blame myself if I have an incident. I think how I could have
avoided it - should my speed have been different, should I have made more
visual checks, should my positioning have been different?

I never just rant and rave about blame. If I am dead, who was to blame isn't
going to help me. So I drive defensivly, sometimes taking some form of
action that I shouldn't need to.

#1 Except in those circumstances you could do nothing. Plane crashes on you,
driver has heart attack and his vehicle bursts through the railings straight
at you - acts of god.

--
MrBitsy

 

[Brimstone]

Peter Clinch wrote:
> Brimstone wrote:
>
>> If you are a cycling instructor then it should be blindingly obvious
>> to you. But the general thrust is quite simple. The lorry is bigger than
>> the
>> cyclist. Keep clear.
>
> If you ever use the roads it should be blindingly obvious that you
> don't always get to choose.
>
> So let's say I'm at some lights, just behind the ASL and after I
> got there an HGV pulls up behind me. The lights change but I stay
> put a moment (maybe I'm turning right and the way isn't clear yet)
> and the truck rolls over me because the drver's on the 'phone and
> didn't look down... That's all my fault, I should have seen it
> coming and done something differently?[1]
>
> Pete.
>
> [1] What, exactly? Perhaps you'd let us know as you seem to be
> know more about it than the qualified instructors here (I'm one
> too, btw).

Why choose such a pathetic example?

 

[Brimstone]

Ian Smith wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Dec, Brimstone <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Tom Crispin wrote:
>>> On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 13:09:13 -0000, "Brimstone"
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> 2.. Cyclist should dismount if they are waiting at a junction
>>>>>> and a lorry positions itself to their right at junctions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Eh!? And climb over the railings?
>>>>>
>>>>> How about those who cause the deaths to take some responsibility.
>>>>>
>>>> If someone is crushed by a lorry after pulling away from traffic
>>>> lights then they are the architect of their own misfortune.
>>>
>>> Are you going to justify that remark?
>>
>> If you are a cycling instructor then it should be blindingly
>> obvious to you.
>>
>> But the general thrust is quite simple. The lorry is bigger than the
>> cyclist. Keep clear.
>
> So imagine I'm stopped at traffic lights and a lorry pulls up - what
> am I supposed to do in your fairy-tale world? Just disappear?
> Evaporate into thin air? Or do you actually think I should dismount
> and climb over the railings, taking my bike with me?
>
> Perhaps you think I should telepathically disintegrate the lorry?
>
> Idiot.

So glad you recognise your own failings.

 

[MrBitsy]

Peter Clinch wrote:
> Brimstone wrote:
>
>> If you are a cycling instructor then it should be blindingly obvious
>> to you. But the general thrust is quite simple. The lorry is bigger than
>> the
>> cyclist. Keep clear.
>
> If you ever use the roads it should be blindingly obvious that you
> don't always get to choose.
>
> So let's say I'm at some lights, just behind the ASL and after I
> got there an HGV pulls up behind me. The lights change but I stay
> put a moment (maybe I'm turning right and the way isn't clear yet)
> and the truck rolls over me because the drver's on the 'phone and
> didn't look down... That's all my fault, I should have seen it
> coming and done something differently?[1]

Hey, the roads can be made dangerous by those that use them - fact of modern
life.

I was once at a set of traffic lights in a car. I was in the correct lane
and showing the correct signal. I was hit from behind, a collision big
enough to right off the car. Luckily for me, I survived. I did nothing wrong
and the driver that hit me was clearly in the wrong.

Short of walking everywhere there was nothing I could do. I can either
accept the risks and drive, or walk everywhere. I have chosen to continue
driving. I did go to the IAM and RoSPA for extra training and I passed both
courses. The fact I did so does not guarantee my safety.

We can only do our best.

> [1] What, exactly? Perhaps you'd let us know as you seem to be
> know more about it than the qualified instructors here (I'm one
> too, btw).

Nothing. In that situation, the cyclist was in the wrong place at the wrong
time. Just look how well pilots are trained - they still make errors and
planes still crash - did you stop flying because of it? Maybe you accept the
small risk for the benefit flying gives you.


--
MrBitsy

 

[MrBitsy]

Ian Smith wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Dec, Brimstone <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Tom Crispin wrote:
>>> On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 13:09:13 -0000, "Brimstone"
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> 2.. Cyclist should dismount if they are waiting at a junction
>>>>>> and a lorry positions itself to their right at junctions.
>>>>>
>>>>> Eh!? And climb over the railings?
>>>>>
>>>>> How about those who cause the deaths to take some responsibility.
>>>>>
>>>> If someone is crushed by a lorry after pulling away from traffic
>>>> lights then they are the architect of their own misfortune.
>>>
>>> Are you going to justify that remark?
>>
>> If you are a cycling instructor then it should be blindingly
>> obvious to you.
>>
>> But the general thrust is quite simple. The lorry is bigger than the
>> cyclist. Keep clear.
>
> So imagine I'm stopped at traffic lights and a lorry pulls up - what
> am I supposed to do in your fairy-tale world?

We don't need to look at the fairy tale world - this happens in the real
one.

> Just disappear? Evaporate into thin air? Or do you actually think I
> should
> dismount and climb over the railings, taking my bike with me?

You should do something so you stay alive. We know the lorry driver should
be looking in the mirrors. We all know the lorry driver shouldn't be
reading - how is this going to be of any benefit to you dead?

> Perhaps you think I should telepathically disintegrate the lorry?

> Idiot.


I would suggest doing nothing, based on blame, is the idiotic thing in your
post.

--
MrBitsy

 

[Peter Clinch]

Brimstone wrote:

> Why choose such a pathetic example?

Pathetic in what sense? That it immediately demonstrates your
"point" was an over-generalised sweeping assumption that's no help
to anybody?

Why choose such a pathetic, over-generalised sweeping assumption?

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Ian Smith]

On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 16:36:52 GMT, NM <[email protected]> wrote:
> Ian Smith wrote:
> >
> > Perhaps you think I should telepathically disintegrate the lorry?
>
> Perhaps you should take more care about getting into such situations.

How?

Come on - stop the empty pointless nonsense and be specific. Tell me
how to make 40 tonnes of HGV disappear when it comes up behind me.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

 

[Peter Clinch]

MrBitsy wrote:

> Hey, the roads can be made dangerous by those that use them - fact of modern
> life.

I know that, and you know that, but Brimstone seems to be working
in some fantasy land where I shouldn't be close to lorries because
they're bigger than me.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Ian Smith]

["Followup-To:" header set to uk.rec.cycling.]
On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 16:59:55 GMT, MrBitsy <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> My personal thought on this is it takes two to create an incident #1.
>
> #1 Except in those circumstances you could do nothing. Plane crashes on you,
> driver has heart attack and his vehicle bursts through the railings straight
> at you - acts of god.

Things like, HGV driver pulls up alongside at traffic light junction
then drives over you when the lights go green? Things like the very
case under discussion, for example?

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

 

[Ian Smith]

On Sun, 16 Dec, Brimstone <[email protected]> wrote:
> Ian Smith wrote:
> >
> > So imagine I'm stopped at traffic lights and a lorry pulls up - what
> > am I supposed to do in your fairy-tale world? Just disappear?
> > Evaporate into thin air? Or do you actually think I should dismount
> > and climb over the railings, taking my bike with me?
> >
> > Perhaps you think I should telepathically disintegrate the lorry?
> >
> > Idiot.
>
> So glad you recognise your own failings.

So, I'll take that as an admission you have absolutely no
justification for the nonsense you spouted then, since you would
presumably have offered it if any of it existed.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

 

[MrBitsy]

Ian Smith wrote:
> ["Followup-To:" header set to uk.rec.cycling.]
> On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 16:59:55 GMT, MrBitsy <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> My personal thought on this is it takes two to create an incident
>> #1.
>>
>> #1 Except in those circumstances you could do nothing. Plane
>> crashes on you, driver has heart attack and his vehicle bursts
>> through the railings straight at you - acts of god.
>
> Things like, HGV driver pulls up alongside at traffic light junction
> then drives over you when the lights go green? Things like the very
> case under discussion, for example?

Whoosh

--
MrBitsy

 

[Conor]

In article <[email protected]>, Peter Clinch says...
> MrBitsy wrote:
>
> > Hey, the roads can be made dangerous by those that use them - fact of modern
> > life.
>
> I know that, and you know that, but Brimstone seems to be working
> in some fantasy land where I shouldn't be close to lorries because
> they're bigger than me.
>
No, you shouldn't put yourself in a position where you can't be seen.


--
Conor

I'm not prejudiced. I hate everyone equally.

 

[Tim Woodall]

On 16 Dec 2007 17:48:46 GMT,
Ian Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 16:36:52 GMT, NM <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Ian Smith wrote:
>> >
>> > Perhaps you think I should telepathically disintegrate the lorry?
>>
>> Perhaps you should take more care about getting into such situations.
>
> How?
>
> Come on - stop the empty pointless nonsense and be specific. Tell me
> how to make 40 tonnes of HGV disappear when it comes up behind me.
>

You're on a trike, it's easy. You just lean over, undo the valve cap and
let the air out of its tyres. Job done.


Tim.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/

 

[MrBitsy]

Peter Clinch wrote:
> MrBitsy wrote:
>
>> Hey, the roads can be made dangerous by those that use them - fact
>> of modern life.
>
> I know that, and you know that, but Brimstone seems to be working
> in some fantasy land where I shouldn't be close to lorries because
> they're bigger than me.

He has said no such thing.
--
MrBitsy