Re: published helmet research - not troll



On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 00:10:01 GMT, "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Peterson, who at least shows that he is open minded (in other words -
>without the HawwwwwwHeeeeeeHawwwwww of a certain individual whose name
>starts with Bill and ends with Zaumen) does run an article after that
>suggesting that he thinks that perhaps a helmet does some good if you aren't
>so stupid that you risk compensate.


An interesting idea. Nobody believes in risk compensation, after all
- that's why it happens.

On what does he base the assertion that you have to be stupid to
risk-compensate? The fact that he doesn't understand it, or the fact
that he hasn't read the research? ;-)
 
Bill "Laa laa I'm not listening" Zaumen trolled:

>Looks like Tom is competing with Guy to see who can act like more of
>an ill-bred idiot.


While Bill is doing an excellent impression of an inbred idiot.
 
On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 00:11:58 GMT, "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>A standard helmet has more aero drag than a guy with long hair. A lot more
>drag than a guy with short hair. Strange that you are the one that provided
>this data and somehow you cannot understand it. Could you really be this
>stupid?


Ooh! Me! Me! I know this one! :-D
 
Guy Chapman <[email protected]> writes:

> Bill "laa laa I'm not listening" Zaumen trolled:
>
> >Our pathetic troll, Guy, wants to divert attention from his infantile
> >behavior.

>
> I love the way that you, who have posted nothign but contentious wrong
> assertions which you then try to defend against all evidence, call
> others trolls!


The only people being "contentious" are you and you new-found friends.
And BTW, I didn't start this discussion, and you whine and whine if
I just ignore you. That makes *you* the troll, dude.

> >Back to your time-out, Guy. I'm ignoring everything else you posted
> >today. It's been covered before and basically you don't know what you
> >are talking about.

>
> Translation: "Laa laa, I'm not listening".


Translation - act like an infant (which is what you are doing) and
I'll treat you as one. You can whine all you want.

> I am sure that all the groups you are trolling ...


Guy is back to the big lie technique ... repeat the same thing over
and over in the hope that people will believe him.

>
> > My helmet has less vents than the more extreme designs. It's kind of
> > middle of the road.

>
> So you say, but since you flatly refuse to tell us which helmet you
> wear we can't know whether you are lying or just deluded.


What a troll Guy is. As if the model name for a garden-variety
helmet is important.

--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB
 
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> writes:

> On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 00:11:58 GMT, "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >A standard helmet has more aero drag than a guy with long hair. A lot more
> >drag than a guy with short hair. Strange that you are the one that provided
> >this data and somehow you cannot understand it. Could you really be this
> >stupid?

>
> Ooh! Me! Me! I know this one! :-D


One particular helmet (a non-aerodynamic design), a Bell V1 Pro, was
measured as having *slightly* more drag than someone with long hair.
It simply doesn't take much of an improvement over that to get a
slight drag reduction.


--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB
 
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> writes:

> On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 00:10:01 GMT, "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >Peterson, who at least shows that he is open minded (in other words -
> >without the HawwwwwwHeeeeeeHawwwwww of a certain individual whose name
> >starts with Bill and ends with Zaumen) does run an article after that
> >suggesting that he thinks that perhaps a helmet does some good if you aren't
> >so stupid that you risk compensate.

>
> An interesting idea. Nobody believes in risk compensation, after all
> - that's why it happens.
>
> On what does he base the assertion that you have to be stupid to
> risk-compensate? The fact that he doesn't understand it, or the fact
> that he hasn't read the research? ;-)


If you believe a liar like Kunich, you are even more of a fool than I
thought. BWT, what I suggested is that risk compensation does not
apply to helmet use because road rash and other unpleasant outcomes
of a crash are a sufficient disincentive. Risk compenstation would
apply to improvements in bike handling (better brakes, etc.) He
misrepresented what I had said, which is typical of him.

--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB
 
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 00:10:01 GMT, "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >Peterson, who at least shows that he is open minded (in other words -
> >without the HawwwwwwHeeeeeeHawwwwww of a certain individual whose name
> >starts with Bill and ends with Zaumen) does run an article after that
> >suggesting that he thinks that perhaps a helmet does some good if you

aren't
> >so stupid that you risk compensate.

>
> An interesting idea. Nobody believes in risk compensation, after all
> - that's why it happens.
>
> On what does he base the assertion that you have to be stupid to
> risk-compensate? The fact that he doesn't understand it, or the fact
> that he hasn't read the research? ;-)


Grant is pretty sharp cookie despite his somewhat weird ideas about bicycles
(he'd enjoy a friction shifting 5 speed). He didn't say what I attributed to
him but sort of hinted at it. In truth, risk compensation is something that
we all do. If we undercompensate for a safety device our personal safety
increases. If we overcompensate we are less safe.

Since bicycle helmets have almost no descernable effect on injuries it is
almost a certainty that people will always overcompensate.
 
"Bill Z." <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> writes:
>
> > On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 00:11:58 GMT, "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >A standard helmet has more aero drag than a guy with long hair. A lot

more
> > >drag than a guy with short hair. Strange that you are the one that

provided
> > >this data and somehow you cannot understand it. Could you really be

this
> > >stupid?

> >
> > Ooh! Me! Me! I know this one! :-D

>
> One particular helmet (a non-aerodynamic design), a Bell V1 Pro, was
> measured as having *slightly* more drag than someone with long hair.
> It simply doesn't take much of an improvement over that to get a
> slight drag reduction.


HaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwHeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeHaaaaaaaaaaawwwww!
 
On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 02:51:56 GMT, [email protected] (Bill Z.)
wrote:

>The only people being "contentious" are you and you new-found friends.


LOL! Us and the authors you cited, don't forget. They're the ones
who have the data proving you're wrong. In fact everybody around here
seems to be in agreement, with just the one exception. That would be
you, troll-boy.

>And BTW, I didn't start this discussion, and you whine and whine if
>I just ignore you. That makes *you* the troll, dude.


Yeah right. What's your total contribution to the world of cycling
thus far, Bill? Apart from comedy interest in these groups? I see
nothing from you other than contentious and easily disproved
assertions, defended ad nauseam against all the evidence. This thread
being a perfect example. That's trolling. You also troll for
insults, presumably to give you an opportunity to go off into one of
your sulks. Me, all I want is for you to either accept the evidence
as provided thus far (i.e. that you are wrong) or provide some new
evidence.

>Guy is back to the big lie technique ... repeat the same thing over
>and over in the hope that people will believe him.


Says the man who keeps repeating the mantra that helmets reduce drag
despite the fact that all the evidence proves otherwise! There are
two h-words in this thread, Bill, and the other one is hypocrite.
That would be you, troll-boy.

>> So you say, but since you flatly refuse to tell us which helmet you
>> wear we can't know whether you are lying or just deluded.


>As if the model name for a garden-variety helmet is important.


But it's clearly not a garden-variety helmet, Bill, because your
description of it does not match any of the brands I and others here
can recognise. And remember, some of us ride every day, and meet
other cyclists every day, and visit bike shops regularly, so that's
indicative that your helmet must be somewhat unusual.

So either you are simply lying (as if), or you are subject to your
usual failing of believing that your case is the general case; we
can't know which unless you tell us what model helmet you wear.

Oh, there is another option: to write you off as a bullshitter.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University
 
On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 04:49:27 GMT, [email protected] (Bill Z.)
wrote:

>> > HaaaawwwwwwwwHeeeeeeeeeeehaaaaawwwwwwwwwwww.

>
>Kunich is finally posting statements that truly reflect his
>intelligence.


"Zaumen's" is spelt Z-a-u-m-e-n-apostrophe-s, not h-i-s.

HTH.


Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University
 
On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 02:57:36 GMT, [email protected] (Bill Z.)
wrote:

>> On what does he base the assertion that you have to be stupid to
>> risk-compensate? The fact that he doesn't understand it, or the fact
>> that he hasn't read the research? ;-)


>If you believe a liar like Kunich, you are even more of a fool than I
>thought.


So that's the ad-hominem response, which is as worthless as your usual
contributions, what do you have to say about the original source and
his curious ideas regarding risk compensation? No, on second
thoughts, don't bother.

>BWT, what I suggested is that risk compensation does not
>apply to helmet use because road rash and other unpleasant outcomes
>of a crash are a sufficient disincentive. Risk compenstation would
>apply to improvements in bike handling (better brakes, etc.)


In a way that death and serious injury are not a disincentive for car
drivers. Silly of me not to notice. Clearly you know even less about
this than you do about any other aspect of cycling, which is hard to
achieve. Risk compensation is actually a selling feature for one
brand of helmets in the UK!

The fact that the strongly pro-helmet editor of Injury Prevention set
out to prove your assertion and ended up proving the exact opposite
might also be considered relevant.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University
 
On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 04:37:01 GMT, "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Since bicycle helmets have almost no descernable effect on injuries it is
>almost a certainty that people will always overcompensate.


I really don't think it's that straightforward. One of the great
problems is that the research community is so busy trying to prove
that helmets work in theory, that they are not devoting any time to
finding out why they don't in practice.

I honestly don't know how many serious injuries helmets might prevent.
My view is that it is probably very few. It is apparent from the
evidence of many countries that the number of injuries they cause -
and we have to presume that risk compensation is the primary mechanism
there - is at least as great as the number of serious ijuries they
save.

Ironically, helmet zealots are probably the worst offenders in
encouraging an overly optimistic view of the effectiveness of helmets,
so may be considered the prime cause of their failure in the real
world. To place them at the top of the cycle safety agenda, as so
many zealots do, is simply unwarranted. And indeed stupid, since
nobody would suggest that cyclists cannot die of other injuries (and
even those who die of head injuries commonly have other mortal
injuries as well).

The well-established principles of risk management seem to have been
forgotten along the way: quantify the danger, reduce danger at source,
and only as a last resort require personal protective equipment.
Helmet zealots commonly fail both the first two criteria, giving a
massively inflated view of the dangers and no thought whatsoever to
techniques for reducig risk (such as effective cycling).

As we know from the actions of Our Mutual Friend, anybody who purveys
certainties in the helmet debate is probably a liar, a charlatan or
both :)

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University
 
On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 02:53:39 GMT, [email protected] (Bill Z.)
wrote:

>> >Could you really be this stupid?

>> Ooh! Me! Me! I know this one! :-D


>One particular helmet (a non-aerodynamic design), a Bell V1 Pro, was
>measured as having *slightly* more drag than someone with long hair.


Exactly. The only standard helmet tested, one which was smoother
surfaced than a modern helmet, was shown to be worse than the
worst-case unhelmeted scenario (executive summary for the
comprehension impaired: Bill WRONG).

>It simply doesn't take much of an improvement over that to get a
>slight drag reduction.


Over the worst-case scenario, yes. It would require a very
substantial improvement to beat short hair, or even long hair plus a
cotton cycling cap.

The only thing is, you have provided no evidence to support the idea
of even a slight reduction. Modern multi-vented helmets are
aerodynamically dirty. Several articles comment on that, none suggest
that helmets improve aerodynamics. All the evidence posted thus far
is against you, including (in fact especially) the evidence you
yourself linked.

Yet still you persist. I wonder why?[1]

[1] OK, no I don't.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University
 
On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 04:40:37 GMT, "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>HaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwHeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeHaaaaaaaaaaawwwww!


LOL! That's so funny I forgot to correct Bill's attribution to "Bill
'Laa Laa I'm Not listening' Zaumen" in a couple of posts today!

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University
 
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> writes:

> On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 04:37:01 GMT, "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
> I really don't think it's that straightforward. One of the great
> problems is that the research community is so busy trying to prove
> that helmets work in theory, that they are not devoting any time to
> finding out why they don't in practice.


.... yet another conspiracy theory.

> Ironically, helmet zealots are probably the worst offenders in
> encouraging an overly optimistic view of the effectiveness of helmets,

<snip>

..... strawman argument.

> As we know from the actions of Our Mutual Friend, anybody who purveys
> certainties in the helmet debate is probably a liar, a charlatan or
> both :)


..... ad hominem attack.

Conclusion - Guy is one of the real trolls in this dicussion (and
he even resorted to the dubious tactic of putting my last name in
the subject line in the hopes that enough responses would help his
propaganda campaign/personal vendetta along.) Pretty sleazy.

--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB
 
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> writes:

> On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 02:51:56 GMT, [email protected] (Bill Z.)
> wrote:
>
> >The only people being "contentious" are you and you new-found friends.

>
> LOL! Us and the authors you cited, don't forget. They're the ones
> who have the data proving you're wrong. In fact everybody around here
> seems to be in agreement, with just the one exception. That would be
> you, troll-boy.


Now resorting to name calling because you don't have a point (and I
never criticized the authors in question, and their articles are
not contradictory to what I posted - how could they be when they
actually showed air drag reductions for some, but not all, helmets.)

> >And BTW, I didn't start this discussion, and you whine and whine if
> >I just ignore you. That makes *you* the troll, dude.

>
> Yeah right. What's your total contribution to the world of cycling
> thus far, Bill?


Probably a lot more than yours but I don't go around bragging.

> >Guy is back to the big lie technique ... repeat the same thing over
> >and over in the hope that people will believe him.

>
> Says the man who keeps repeating the mantra that helmets reduce drag
> despite the fact that all the evidence proves otherwise!


I provided URLs to data showing a drag reduction, plus pointing out
that what you get in practice is too small to make any noticable
difference in practice for most people. One of the URLs stated
that an older, competely symmetric helmet caused a slight increase
in drag over riding with "long hair" with other helmets providing
a net reduction. There's obviously a range in air drags, and you
don't have to go very far from the worst case in the list to have
a net reduction.

> two h-words in this thread, Bill, and the other one is hypocrite.
> That would be you, troll-boy.


Liar.

> >> So you say, but since you flatly refuse to tell us which helmet you
> >> wear we can't know whether you are lying or just deluded.

>
> >As if the model name for a garden-variety helmet is important.

>
> But it's clearly not a garden-variety helmet, Bill, because your
> description of it does not match any of the brands I and others here
> can recognise.


You didn't look very hard.

> And remember, some of us ride every day, and meet other cyclists
> every day, and visit bike shops regularly, so that's indicative that
> your helmet must be somewhat unusual.


Odd. I bought it in a decent bike shop, and there were gobs of similar
ones on the shelfs, and I see lots of people using similar ones riding
around on the streets. Nobody who's seen me with it has ever commented
on how unsusual it looks. Sounds to me that, once again, you don't
know what you are talking about.

--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB
 
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> writes:

> On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 04:49:27 GMT, [email protected] (Bill Z.)
> wrote:
>
> >> > HaaaawwwwwwwwHeeeeeeeeeeehaaaaawwwwwwwwwwww.

> >
> >Kunich is finally posting statements that truly reflect his
> >intelligence.

>
> "Zaumen's" is spelt Z-a-u-m-e-n-apostrophe-s, not h-i-s.


Trying to demonstrate that you are even more childish than Kunich?
Guess I'll have to plonk the rest of your messages today. Try again
tomorrow when you'll have had another day to grow up.

--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB
 

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