Re: Real Design - Ultrasonic 40 Wheels - Experiences?

[Qui si parla Campagnolo]

Steve Sr. wrote:
> I am considering a purchase of a new Litespeed road bike and right now
> they have a special sale going. The above wheels are free with the
> purchase of the bike.
>
> These wheels are a melding of carbon and aluminum which supposedly
> provides the best of both materials. Here is a link to the specs:
>
> http://www.real-design.com/2005/ultrasonic.aspx
>
> Is this a good deal or not? I know that most folks in this NG have a
> bias against these types of wheels but I am wondering if any of you
> have real world experience with these wheels.
>
> I weigh 160 pounds and do mostly group and distance riding. I don't
> race and never will. Durability (reliability), light weight, and
> repairability in the field are the important factors here. Do you
> think that these wheels would live up to this challenge?


At 1541 and 1770 grams for the wide and wider rim, they certainly aren't
'light'. I wouldn't expect any shop to have small hub parts or spokes
either. I guess when they are free, you get what you pay for. get them,
ebay them, have a good wheelbuilder build you a set specifically for you
and your needs.
>
> Another option I am considering is to get the bike with these wheels
> and immediately resell them and then go buy a conventional set of
> wheels with the proceeds. Do you think I would get enough for the
> ultrasonics to come out ahead on this transaction?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steve
>
>
>
>

 

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <1112018346.93e6b40879e2b2007a76897157318e78@teranews>,
Qui si parla Campagnolo <[email protected]> wrote:

> Steve Sr. wrote:
> > I am considering a purchase of a new Litespeed road bike and right now
> > they have a special sale going. The above wheels are free with the
> > purchase of the bike.
> >
> > These wheels are a melding of carbon and aluminum which supposedly
> > provides the best of both materials. Here is a link to the specs:
> >
> > http://www.real-design.com/2005/ultrasonic.aspx
> >
> > Is this a good deal or not? I know that most folks in this NG have a
> > bias against these types of wheels but I am wondering if any of you
> > have real world experience with these wheels.
> >
> > I weigh 160 pounds and do mostly group and distance riding. I don't
> > race and never will. Durability (reliability), light weight, and
> > repairability in the field are the important factors here. Do you
> > think that these wheels would live up to this challenge?

Your criteria are exactly the ones I would use to exclude wheels like
these. Deep-section wheels like these can actually be very strong and
true, because despite the lack of spokes, the rim itself becomes
ludicrously strong (and relatively heavy) thanks to its deep section.

That said, it's not the way to go for distance riding. There are cheaper
wheels that will be more durable. I believe the official rbt mantra is:
"Om...Ultegra hubs...32-36 spokes...some decent rim...stress
relief...Om...."

This is not an exhaustive list. If you're not building these wheels
yourself, consult a good wheelbuilder with lots of tourists and
randonneurs in his client list. There are several in this newsgroup.

> At 1541 and 1770 grams for the wide and wider rim, they certainly aren't
> 'light'. I wouldn't expect any shop to have small hub parts or spokes
> either. I guess when they are free, you get what you pay for. get them,
> ebay them, have a good wheelbuilder build you a set specifically for you
> and your needs.

1541g is not extremely light (1000g is about the limit for a pair of
crazy-light wheels), but it's not bad for a deep-section wheel. I have a
really boring The hokey spokes* are the most problematic item when it
comes to repair and availability; I wouldn't take these wheels along on
an unsupported tour. I did a quick comparison to Zipp's current wheels:
these wheels seem to be competitive, weight-wise, though the Zipps have
those neat dimpled surfaces. A set of Zipp 404s will set you back a tidy
$1600.

But they're basically racing wheels. High aero factor. That matters much
more than the weight in all racing circumstances but steep climbs. If
you want or need that, these are an excellent choice. If you're out
doing club rides, don't bother.

> > Another option I am considering is to get the bike with these wheels
> > and immediately resell them and then go buy a conventional set of
> > wheels with the proceeds. Do you think I would get enough for the
> > ultrasonics to come out ahead on this transaction?

It depends on the price difference these "free" wheels impose on the
transaction. Find out what the list price is, but I think that eBaying a
set of unused aero wheels like this is liable to work out well.

*but not, mind you, Hokey Spokes: http://www.hokeyspokes.com/

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com
Verus de parvis; verus de magnis.

 

[Chris Neary]

>But they're basically racing wheels. High aero factor. That matters much
>more than the weight in all racing circumstances but steep climbs.

It also only matters if you typically ride at speeds high enough for the
aero factor to be significant. I'd it somewhere in the 20 to 25 MPH range.
(Alternative opinions on where this number should be welcomed!).

If you're not spending a good portion of your ride above that speed limit
you're just wasting your money.


Chris Neary
[email protected]

"Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: what more could
you ask of life? Bicycling combined all the elements I
loved" - Adapted from a quotation by Charles Lindbergh

 

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <[email protected]>,
Chris Neary <[email protected] > wrote:

> >But they're basically racing wheels. High aero factor. That matters much
> >more than the weight in all racing circumstances but steep climbs.
>
> It also only matters if you typically ride at speeds high enough for the
> aero factor to be significant. I'd it somewhere in the 20 to 25 MPH range.
> (Alternative opinions on where this number should be welcomed!).

Not unless you have very tight time constraints on your ride time .
Good aero preparation (equipment and position) can save many seconds in
a TT; even minutes, if the TT is long enough.

But it's only seconds and minutes. If you're not racing, how much does
it matter that you finished your 3-hour ride 5 minutes faster due to an
equipment change? In your local TT, that change might account for
several positions. In your training ride, nobody cares, and that should
include you.

> If you're not spending a good portion of your ride above that speed limit
> you're just wasting your money.

Ironically, slower riders get more time benefit from better equipment
than fast riders, at least in some circumstances. That is, Joe Slow
could save more seconds with a given bit of aero improvement than Fran
Fast, although Fran will reduce her time by a greater percentage
(increase as the square of the yadda yadda, to paraphrase G.Daniel).

-RjC.

Ryan Cousineau, [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com
Verus de parvis; verus de magnis.

 

[Art M]

"Ryan Cousineau" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <1112018346.93e6b40879e2b2007a76897157318e78@teranews>,
> Qui si parla Campagnolo <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Steve Sr. wrote:
>> > I am considering a purchase of a new Litespeed road bike and right now
>> > they have a special sale going. The above wheels are free with the
>> > purchase of the bike.
>> >
>> > These wheels are a melding of carbon and aluminum which supposedly
>> > provides the best of both materials. Here is a link to the specs:
>> >
>> > http://www.real-design.com/2005/ultrasonic.aspx
>> >
>> > Is this a good deal or not? I know that most folks in this NG have a
>> > bias against these types of wheels but I am wondering if any of you
>> > have real world experience with these wheels.
>> >
>> > I weigh 160 pounds and do mostly group and distance riding. I don't
>> > race and never will. Durability (reliability), light weight, and
>> > repairability in the field are the important factors here. Do you
>> > think that these wheels would live up to this challenge?
>
> Your criteria are exactly the ones I would use to exclude wheels like
> these. Deep-section wheels like these can actually be very strong and
> true, because despite the lack of spokes, the rim itself becomes
> ludicrously strong (and relatively heavy) thanks to its deep section.
>
> That said, it's not the way to go for distance riding. There are cheaper
> wheels that will be more durable. I believe the official rbt mantra is:
> "Om...Ultegra hubs...32-36 spokes...some decent rim...stress
> relief...Om...."
>
> This is not an exhaustive list. If you're not building these wheels
> yourself, consult a good wheelbuilder with lots of tourists and
> randonneurs in his client list. There are several in this newsgroup.
>
>> At 1541 and 1770 grams for the wide and wider rim, they certainly aren't
>> 'light'. I wouldn't expect any shop to have small hub parts or spokes
>> either. I guess when they are free, you get what you pay for. get them,
>> ebay them, have a good wheelbuilder build you a set specifically for you
>> and your needs.
>
> 1541g is not extremely light (1000g is about the limit for a pair of
> crazy-light wheels), but it's not bad for a deep-section wheel. I have a
> really boring The hokey spokes* are the most problematic item when it
> comes to repair and availability; I wouldn't take these wheels along on
> an unsupported tour. I did a quick comparison to Zipp's current wheels:
> these wheels seem to be competitive, weight-wise, though the Zipps have
> those neat dimpled surfaces. A set of Zipp 404s will set you back a tidy
> $1600.



It looks like these are clinchers. The 60 mm rims are 200 gm heavier than
Zipp 404 clinchers (58 mm, 1570 gm). They may even be closer in weight if
the 1770 gm includes the skewers. If you think you might ever compete in
time trials, where the extra weight is not an issue, these wheels are
probably a bargain in comparison (hard to say w/o knowing the price you are
paying for the bike). Spare Sapim aero spokes will run about $3 each. They
have a low spoke count at 20/24, but Zipp, Reynolds, and Mavic Cosmic
Carbone all use 16/20. I wonder if high profile rims flex less and therefore
the spoke life is longer (at least for wheels of same spoke count)? I'm sure
Jobst could answer that.

If you really aren't going to do any racing then what has already been said
applies. In addition you probably don't even need a pricey titanium
Lightspeed. I now have a sub 17 pounder, but I still enjoy taking the 26
pounder on a group ride. Then again, I live in Flatland.

--Art



> But they're basically racing wheels. High aero factor. That matters much
> more than the weight in all racing circumstances but steep climbs. If
> you want or need that, these are an excellent choice. If you're out
> doing club rides, don't bother.
>
>> > Another option I am considering is to get the bike with these wheels
>> > and immediately resell them and then go buy a conventional set of
>> > wheels with the proceeds. Do you think I would get enough for the
>> > ultrasonics to come out ahead on this transaction?
>
> It depends on the price difference these "free" wheels impose on the
> transaction. Find out what the list price is, but I think that eBaying a
> set of unused aero wheels like this is liable to work out well.
>
> *but not, mind you, Hokey Spokes: http://www.hokeyspokes.com/
>
> --
> Ryan Cousineau, [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com
> Verus de parvis; verus de magnis.

 

[Chris Neary]

>Ironically, slower riders get more time benefit from better equipment
>than fast riders, at least in some circumstances. That is, Joe Slow
>could save more seconds with a given bit of aero improvement than Fran
>Fast, although Fran will reduce her time by a greater percentage
>(increase as the square of the yadda yadda, to paraphrase G.Daniel).

I think you've missed the point I was trying to make: Unless you're riding
fast enough to produce enough drag for your aero equipment to make a
difference, you're simply wasting money.

Ever see someone who consistently rides with a fast set of wheels @ 16 MPH
on the flats?


Chris Neary
[email protected]

"Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: what more could
you ask of life? Bicycling combined all the elements I
loved" - Adapted from a quotation by Charles Lindbergh

 

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <gXk2e.72375$7z6.13220@lakeread04>,
"Art M" <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Ryan Cousineau" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > In article <1112018346.93e6b40879e2b2007a76897157318e78@teranews>,
> > Qui si parla Campagnolo <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> Steve Sr. wrote:
> >> > I am considering a purchase of a new Litespeed road bike and right now
> >> > they have a special sale going. The above wheels are free with the
> >> > purchase of the bike.
> >> >
> >> > These wheels are a melding of carbon and aluminum which supposedly
> >> > provides the best of both materials. Here is a link to the specs:
> >> >
> >> > http://www.real-design.com/2005/ultrasonic.aspx

> > 1541g is not extremely light (1000g is about the limit for a pair of
> > crazy-light wheels), but it's not bad for a deep-section wheel. I have a
> > really boring
[...]
> > I did a quick comparison to Zipp's current wheels:
> > these wheels seem to be competitive, weight-wise, though the Zipps have
> > those neat dimpled surfaces. A set of Zipp 404s will set you back a tidy
> > $1600.
>
> It looks like these are clinchers. The 60 mm rims are 200 gm heavier than
> Zipp 404 clinchers (58 mm, 1570 gm). They may even be closer in weight if
> the 1770 gm includes the skewers. If you think you might ever compete in
> time trials, where the extra weight is not an issue, these wheels are
> probably a bargain in comparison (hard to say w/o knowing the price you are
> paying for the bike). Spare Sapim aero spokes will run about $3 each. They
> have a low spoke count at 20/24, but Zipp, Reynolds, and Mavic Cosmic
> Carbone all use 16/20. I wonder if high profile rims flex less and therefore
> the spoke life is longer (at least for wheels of same spoke count)? I'm sure
> Jobst could answer that.

I believe Jobst's experience is that the life of well-cared-for spokes
is nearly infinite. The high-profile rims are a dual-use technology: the
deep section is good aerodynamically, and the excessive strength allows
the rim to take the loads imposed by using fewer spokes at higher
tensions.

That aero-optimized wheels work, structurally speaking, is not an
endorsement of them for all uses.

> If you really aren't going to do any racing then what has already been said
> applies. In addition you probably don't even need a pricey titanium
> Lightspeed. I now have a sub 17 pounder, but I still enjoy taking the 26
> pounder on a group ride. Then again, I live in Flatland.

Well, yeah.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com
Verus de parvis; verus de magnis.

 

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <[email protected]>,
Chris Neary <[email protected] > wrote:

> >Ironically, slower riders get more time benefit from better equipment
> >than fast riders, at least in some circumstances. That is, Joe Slow
> >could save more seconds with a given bit of aero improvement than Fran
> >Fast, although Fran will reduce her time by a greater percentage
> >(increase as the square of the yadda yadda, to paraphrase G.Daniel).
>
> I think you've missed the point I was trying to make: Unless you're riding
> fast enough to produce enough drag for your aero equipment to make a
> difference, you're simply wasting money.

No, I understood that. However, you cut the more salient part of my
post, in which I pointed out that even if you do ride fast, there's
still no real point to high-aero equipment outside of competition, at
least when it compromises other functional aspects.

Serious non-racing fans of aero equipment should put plastic covers over
their rear wheels: UCI-illegal, but lighter, cheaper, and no less aero
than any legal disc wheel.*

*UCI regulations require that disc wheels be structural rather than
faired, as part of the general prohibition on specifically aerodynamic
equipment. In the case of aero wheels, this is the worst kind of legal
fiction, as if anyone would ever use a disc wheel on a bicycle except
for aerodynamic reasons.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com
Verus de parvis; verus de magnis.

 

[Chris Neary]

>No, I understood that. However, you cut the more salient part of my
>post, in which I pointed out that even if you do ride fast, there's
>still no real point to high-aero equipment outside of competition, at
>least when it compromises other functional aspects.

Well that's just common sense.

>Serious non-racing fans of aero equipment should put plastic covers over
>their rear wheels: UCI-illegal, but lighter, cheaper, and no less aero
>than any legal disc wheel.*

I own a couple sets if covers myself, although it's been a looong time since
I bothered to use them.

They can be a handful in crosswinds, so see above.

Are covers USCF-legal? I have a tandem time trial coming up and I might take
the time to swap a cover over to my tandem if it's legal.



Chris Neary
[email protected]

"Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: what more could
you ask of life? Bicycling combined all the elements I
loved" - Adapted from a quotation by Charles Lindbergh

 

[Chris Neary]

>No, I understood that. However, you cut the more salient part of my
>post, in which I pointed out that even if you do ride fast, there's
>still no real point to high-aero equipment outside of competition, at
>least when it compromises other functional aspects.

Well that's just common sense.

>Serious non-racing fans of aero equipment should put plastic covers over
>their rear wheels: UCI-illegal, but lighter, cheaper, and no less aero
>than any legal disc wheel.*

I own a couple sets if covers myself, although it's been a looong time since
I bothered to use them.

They can be a handful in crosswinds, so see above.

Are covers USCF-legal? I have a tandem time trial coming up and I might take
the time to swap a cover over to my tandem if it's legal.



Chris Neary
[email protected]

"Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: what more could
you ask of life? Bicycling combined all the elements I
loved" - Adapted from a quotation by Charles Lindbergh

 

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <[email protected]>,
Chris Neary <[email protected] > wrote:

> >No, I understood that. However, you cut the more salient part of my
> >post, in which I pointed out that even if you do ride fast, there's
> >still no real point to high-aero equipment outside of competition, at
> >least when it compromises other functional aspects.
>
> Well that's just common sense.
>
> >Serious non-racing fans of aero equipment should put plastic covers over
> >their rear wheels: UCI-illegal, but lighter, cheaper, and no less aero
> >than any legal disc wheel.*
>
> I own a couple sets if covers myself, although it's been a looong time since
> I bothered to use them.
>
> They can be a handful in crosswinds, so see above.
>
> Are covers USCF-legal? I have a tandem time trial coming up and I might take
> the time to swap a cover over to my tandem if it's legal.

Long answer: I don't know. I actually just went through the UCI's bike
regs, and the issue of wheel covers seems to only be implicitly covered
in a general prohibition of fairings:

http://www.commissaire.net/resource/04-01-en-general.pdf?fileId=43985

Long answer: the USCF is not using full UCI rules until 2007, so you're
probably good to go. Also, and I can't believe I have to point this out,
nobody will care.


--
Ryan Cousineau, [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com
Verus de parvis; verus de magnis.

 

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <[email protected]>,
Chris Neary <[email protected] > wrote:

> >No, I understood that. However, you cut the more salient part of my
> >post, in which I pointed out that even if you do ride fast, there's
> >still no real point to high-aero equipment outside of competition, at
> >least when it compromises other functional aspects.
>
> Well that's just common sense.
>
> >Serious non-racing fans of aero equipment should put plastic covers over
> >their rear wheels: UCI-illegal, but lighter, cheaper, and no less aero
> >than any legal disc wheel.*
>
> I own a couple sets if covers myself, although it's been a looong time since
> I bothered to use them.
>
> They can be a handful in crosswinds, so see above.
>
> Are covers USCF-legal? I have a tandem time trial coming up and I might take
> the time to swap a cover over to my tandem if it's legal.

Long answer: I don't know. I actually just went through the UCI's bike
regs, and the issue of wheel covers seems to only be implicitly covered
in a general prohibition of fairings:

http://www.commissaire.net/resource/04-01-en-general.pdf?fileId=43985

Long answer: the USCF is not using full UCI rules until 2007, so you're
probably good to go. Also, and I can't believe I have to point this out,
nobody will care.


--
Ryan Cousineau, [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com
Verus de parvis; verus de magnis.