Re: Red lights jumping - interesting survey



On 17 May, 09:44, Tony Dragon <[email protected]> wrote:
> Doug wrote:
> > On 17 May, 09:28, Tony Dragon <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Doug wrote:
> >>> On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>> Daniel Barlow wrote:
> >>>>> "Brimstone" <[email protected]> writes:
> >>>>>> How can it be a victimless crime when a cyclist jumps a red light,
> >>>>>> obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?
> >>>>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
> >>>>> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at Piccadilly
> >>>>> Circus, then?
> >>>> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles passing the red
> >>>> light, or was the report limited to the fact of them doing it?
> >>> Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
> >>> than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the same speed.
> >>> Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is only 1,000kg.
> >>> You can see the implication can't you? Cyclists 43 cars 270.
> >>> --
> >>> RoadPeace
> >>>http://www.roadpeace.org/
> >>> For road crash victims.
> >> Could you answer this question for me to iron out any misconceptions?
> >> Do you think it is OK for cyclists to break the law by going through red
> >> lights?

>
> > Depends what you mean by OK. If it is done to ensure their own safety
> > without prejudicing the safety of others then maybe.

>
> Thank you for your 'clear' reply.
> You agree with cyclists breaking the law
>
>
>
> > Do you think it is OK for motorists to break the law by going through
> > red lights?

>
> Motorist should not break the law by going through red light, except
> when they are allowed to under the highway code e.g. instructed by a
> police officer, where the lights are not working.
> One exception that I don't think is mentioned in the HC would be to
> carefully get out of the way of an emergency vehicle.
>
>


In the right or in the wrong, cyclists die. But speed doesn't kill, of
course.

"A young woman who drove her Smart car through a red light at speed,
hitting and killing a cyclist, has been jailed for 21 months.

Sobbing Kerry Smith, 24, who had no previous convictions and a clean
driving licence, drove west along Talgarth Road at 45mph in the 30mph
limit and failed to stop at the red light on the junction with Gliddon
Road, prosecutor Charles Burton told Isleworth Crown Court.

"It was 9pm and the defendant failed to notice the lights were red and
collided with cyclist Charlotte Morse, who was riding her bicycle from
north to south across the junction with the lights at green in her
favour," he said."

http://www.richmondandtwickenhamtim...g_driver_jailed_for_killing_young_cyclist.php
 
Simon D wrote:
> Conor formulated the question :
>> In article <f8af5b4a-9bed-4848-b508-2b4ef015d206
>> @w7g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, Squashme says...
>>> On 16 May, 14:36, Conor <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> In article <92895881-8d44-49cb-895f-e4e59ff0d216
>>>> @b64g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,Squashmesays...
>>>>
>>>>> So just a modified gut feeling then. I'm sure that you are right that,
>>>>> in this, cyclists are worse proportionately than motorists. More
>>>>> cyclists infringe this rule, than motorists do, probably because they
>>>>> can more easily get away with it. But, surely, it is almost always a
>>>>> victimless crime. rather like speeding, I guess.
>>>>
>>>> Ask the cyclist who got twatted by a car the other month and died, a
>>>> subject of another Doug rant, when he jumped a red light.
>>>>
>>>
>>> As I said, ALMOST always a victimless crime, rather like speeding, I
>>> guess. That accident took a cyclist jumping a red light, combined with
>>> a motorist who was speeding and playing with her mobile, and probably
>>> strumming a banjo, doing her nails and eating a sandwich too.
>>>

>> She wasn't speeding..

>
> "Coultas admitted that her BMW was doing 45mph in a 30mph zone when she
> drove across a junction in Southampton shortly after 7am on 7 February
> last year."
>
> http://news.scotsman.com/uk/Five-years-for-driver-who.3833105.jp


It is absolutely weird that she can be so specific about her speed -
almost as though she was watching the speedo intently - when she also
admitted being careless in so many other aspects of her driving.

There are only two possibilities, aren't there?

Either:

(a) she had/has/always will have no real clue about her speed (any more
than she had about the red-light-jumping cyclist whose route approached
hers at an oblique angle) and is merely going along with someone else's
guess as to whas her speed might/"must" have been, or

(b) she was watching the speedo so intently that she didn't notice
anything else, but can confidently assert that she was doing 45.

One of those has to be true and the other has to be untrue. And I know
which one I think is which.
 
Squashme wrote:
> On 17 May, 09:44, Tony Dragon <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Doug wrote:
>>> On 17 May, 09:28, Tony Dragon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> Doug wrote:
>>>>> On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>> Daniel Barlow wrote:
>>>>>>> "Brimstone" <[email protected]> writes:
>>>>>>>> How can it be a victimless crime when a cyclist jumps a red light,
>>>>>>>> obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?
>>>>>>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
>>>>>>> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at Piccadilly
>>>>>>> Circus, then?
>>>>>> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles passing the red
>>>>>> light, or was the report limited to the fact of them doing it?
>>>>> Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
>>>>> than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the same speed.
>>>>> Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is only 1,000kg.
>>>>> You can see the implication can't you? Cyclists 43 cars 270.
>>>>> --
>>>>> RoadPeace
>>>>> http://www.roadpeace.org/
>>>>> For road crash victims.
>>>> Could you answer this question for me to iron out any misconceptions?
>>>> Do you think it is OK for cyclists to break the law by going through red
>>>> lights?
>>> Depends what you mean by OK. If it is done to ensure their own safety
>>> without prejudicing the safety of others then maybe.

>> Thank you for your 'clear' reply.
>> You agree with cyclists breaking the law
>>
>>
>>
>>> Do you think it is OK for motorists to break the law by going through
>>> red lights?

>> Motorist should not break the law by going through red light, except
>> when they are allowed to under the highway code e.g. instructed by a
>> police officer, where the lights are not working.
>> One exception that I don't think is mentioned in the HC would be to
>> carefully get out of the way of an emergency vehicle.
>>
>>

>
> In the right or in the wrong, cyclists die. But speed doesn't kill, of
> course.
>
> "A young woman who drove her Smart car through a red light at speed,
> hitting and killing a cyclist, has been jailed for 21 months.
>
> Sobbing Kerry Smith, 24, who had no previous convictions and a clean
> driving licence, drove west along Talgarth Road at 45mph in the 30mph
> limit and failed to stop at the red light on the junction with Gliddon
> Road, prosecutor Charles Burton told Isleworth Crown Court.
>
> "It was 9pm and the defendant failed to notice the lights were red and
> collided with cyclist Charlotte Morse, who was riding her bicycle from
> north to south across the junction with the lights at green in her
> favour," he said."
>
> http://www.richmondandtwickenhamtim...g_driver_jailed_for_killing_young_cyclist.php


Do you agree with cyclists breaking the law.

--
Tony the Dragon
 
Squashme wrote:
> On 17 May, 09:44, Tony Dragon <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Doug wrote:
>>> On 17 May, 09:28, Tony Dragon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> Doug wrote:
>>>>> On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>> Daniel Barlow wrote:
>>>>>>> "Brimstone" <[email protected]> writes:
>>>>>>>> How can it be a victimless crime when a cyclist jumps a red light,
>>>>>>>> obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?
>>>>>>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
>>>>>>> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at Piccadilly
>>>>>>> Circus, then?
>>>>>> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles passing the red
>>>>>> light, or was the report limited to the fact of them doing it?
>>>>> Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
>>>>> than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the same speed.
>>>>> Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is only 1,000kg.
>>>>> You can see the implication can't you? Cyclists 43 cars 270.
>>>>> --
>>>>> RoadPeace
>>>>> http://www.roadpeace.org/
>>>>> For road crash victims.
>>>> Could you answer this question for me to iron out any misconceptions?
>>>> Do you think it is OK for cyclists to break the law by going through red
>>>> lights?
>>> Depends what you mean by OK. If it is done to ensure their own safety
>>> without prejudicing the safety of others then maybe.

>> Thank you for your 'clear' reply.
>> You agree with cyclists breaking the law
>>
>>
>>
>>> Do you think it is OK for motorists to break the law by going through
>>> red lights?

>> Motorist should not break the law by going through red light, except
>> when they are allowed to under the highway code e.g. instructed by a
>> police officer, where the lights are not working.
>> One exception that I don't think is mentioned in the HC would be to
>> carefully get out of the way of an emergency vehicle.


> In the right or in the wrong, cyclists die. But speed doesn't kill, of
> course.


> "A young woman who drove her Smart car through a red light at speed,
> hitting and killing a cyclist, has been jailed for 21 months.


> Sobbing Kerry Smith, 24, who had no previous convictions and a clean
> driving licence, drove west along Talgarth Road at 45mph in the 30mph
> limit and failed to stop at the red light on the junction with Gliddon
> Road, prosecutor Charles Burton told Isleworth Crown Court.


> "It was 9pm and the defendant failed to notice the lights were red and
> collided with cyclist Charlotte Morse, who was riding her bicycle from
> north to south across the junction with the lights at green in her
> favour," he said."


> http://www.richmondandtwickenhamtim...g_driver_jailed_for_killing_young_cyclist.php


Is anyone defending the driver's actions?
 
Tony Dragon wrote:
> Squashme wrote:
>> On 17 May, 09:44, Tony Dragon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Doug wrote:
>>>> On 17 May, 09:28, Tony Dragon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> Doug wrote:
>>>>>> On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>> Daniel Barlow wrote:
>>>>>>>> "Brimstone" <[email protected]> writes:
>>>>>>>>> How can it be a victimless crime when a cyclist jumps a red light,
>>>>>>>>> obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?
>>>>>>>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
>>>>>>>> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at
>>>>>>>> Piccadilly
>>>>>>>> Circus, then?
>>>>>>> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles
>>>>>>> passing the red
>>>>>>> light, or was the report limited to the fact of them doing it?
>>>>>> Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
>>>>>> than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the same speed.
>>>>>> Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is only 1,000kg.
>>>>>> You can see the implication can't you? Cyclists 43 cars 270.
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> RoadPeace
>>>>>> http://www.roadpeace.org/
>>>>>> For road crash victims.
>>>>> Could you answer this question for me to iron out any misconceptions?
>>>>> Do you think it is OK for cyclists to break the law by going
>>>>> through red
>>>>> lights?
>>>> Depends what you mean by OK. If it is done to ensure their own safety
>>>> without prejudicing the safety of others then maybe.
>>> Thank you for your 'clear' reply.
>>> You agree with cyclists breaking the law
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Do you think it is OK for motorists to break the law by going through
>>>> red lights?
>>> Motorist should not break the law by going through red light, except
>>> when they are allowed to under the highway code e.g. instructed by a
>>> police officer, where the lights are not working.
>>> One exception that I don't think is mentioned in the HC would be to
>>> carefully get out of the way of an emergency vehicle.
>>>
>>>

>>
>> In the right or in the wrong, cyclists die. But speed doesn't kill, of
>> course.
>>
>> "A young woman who drove her Smart car through a red light at speed,
>> hitting and killing a cyclist, has been jailed for 21 months.
>>
>> Sobbing Kerry Smith, 24, who had no previous convictions and a clean
>> driving licence, drove west along Talgarth Road at 45mph in the 30mph
>> limit and failed to stop at the red light on the junction with Gliddon
>> Road, prosecutor Charles Burton told Isleworth Crown Court.
>>
>> "It was 9pm and the defendant failed to notice the lights were red and
>> collided with cyclist Charlotte Morse, who was riding her bicycle from
>> north to south across the junction with the lights at green in her
>> favour," he said."
>>
>> http://www.richmondandtwickenhamtim...g_driver_jailed_for_killing_young_cyclist.php
>>

>
> Do you agree with cyclists breaking the law.


Agree with it?

He doesn't recognise the concept.
 
Squashme laid this down on his screen :
>
> Snap!!!
>
> ***********, there's an echo in here.


Sorry about that - pretty amazing coincidence though!

> I blame Google. oogle.. ogle.... gle.


Yes, quite.

--
Simon
 
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
> Doug wrote:
> > On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Daniel Barlow wrote:
> >>> "Brimstone" <[email protected]> writes:
> >>>> How can it be a victimless crime when a cyclist jumps a red light,
> >>>> obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?
> >>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
> >>> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at Piccadilly
> >>> Circus, then?
> >> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles passing the red
> >> light, or was the report limited to the fact of them doing it?

> >
> > Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
> > than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the same speed.
> > Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is only 1,000kg.
> > You can see the implication can't you?

>
> Indeed we can.
>
> We also know that the impact force from a bus or train is very much
> greater than that from a car even when they are going at the same speed.
> Let's say the car weighs 1,000 kg and the bus weighs 10,000kg.
>
> You can see the implication, can't you?
>
> Ban buses.
>
> It's obvious.
>

Yes, people who drive lethal trains should be charged with murder if
they hit someone. It get worse, some trains travel at more 130mph, yes,
thats an unbelieveable 130mph, through urban and residential areas. No
wonder so many people who are hit by trains die. This is something that
MUST be stopped.
 
On 17 May, 09:40, "Brimstone" <[email protected]> wrote:
> Doug wrote:
> > On 17 May, 09:28, Tony Dragon <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Doug wrote:
> >>> On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>> Daniel Barlow wrote:
> >>>>> "Brimstone" <[email protected]> writes:
> >>>>>> How can it be a victimless crime when a cyclist jumps a red
> >>>>>> light, obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a
> >>>>>> collision?
> >>>>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
> >>>>> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at
> >>>>> Piccadilly Circus, then?
> >>>> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles
> >>>> passing the red light, or was the report limited to the fact of
> >>>> them doing it?

>
> >>> Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
> >>> than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the same speed.
> >>> Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is only
> >>> 1,000kg. You can see the implication can't you? Cyclists 43 cars
> >>> 270.

>
> >>> --
> >>> RoadPeace
> >>>http://www.roadpeace.org/
> >>> For road crash victims.

>
> >> Could you answer this question for me to iron out any misconceptions?
> >> Do you think it is OK for cyclists to break the law by going through
> >> red lights?

>
> > Depends what you mean by OK. If it is done to ensure their own safety
> > without prejudicing the safety of others then maybe.

>
> So that a "Yes" then.
>
> > Do you think it is OK for motorists to break the law by going through
> > red lights?

>
> No.
>
> Why do you have double standards Doug?


In a word 'vulnerability'. Roads are not designed for bicycles, even
though they pre-date cars, so a uniform law covering all forms of road
transport can put cyclists seriously at risk.

--
World Carfree Network
http://www.worldcarfree.net/
Help for your car-addicted friends in the U.K.
 
Doug wrote:
> On 17 May, 09:40, "Brimstone" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Doug wrote:
>>> On 17 May, 09:28, Tony Dragon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> Doug wrote:
>>>>> On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <[email protected]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Daniel Barlow wrote:
>>>>>>> "Brimstone" <[email protected]> writes:
>>>>>>>> How can it be a victimless crime when a cyclist jumps a red
>>>>>>>> light, obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a
>>>>>>>> collision?
>>>>>>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How
>>>>>>> many times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at
>>>>>>> Piccadilly Circus, then?
>>>>>> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles
>>>>>> passing the red light, or was the report limited to the fact of
>>>>>> them doing it?

>>
>>>>> Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
>>>>> than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the same
>>>>> speed. Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is
>>>>> only 1,000kg. You can see the implication can't you? Cyclists 43
>>>>> cars 270.

>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> RoadPeace
>>>>> http://www.roadpeace.org/
>>>>> For road crash victims.

>>
>>>> Could you answer this question for me to iron out any
>>>> misconceptions? Do you think it is OK for cyclists to break the
>>>> law by going through red lights?

>>
>>> Depends what you mean by OK. If it is done to ensure their own
>>> safety without prejudicing the safety of others then maybe.

>>
>> So that a "Yes" then.
>>
>>> Do you think it is OK for motorists to break the law by going
>>> through red lights?

>>
>> No.
>>
>> Why do you have double standards Doug?

>
> In a word 'vulnerability'. Roads are not designed for bicycles, even
> though they pre-date cars, so a uniform law covering all forms of road
> transport can put cyclists seriously at risk.


So are you saying that cyclists should not take care to avoid collisions?
 
Doug wrote:
> On 17 May, 09:40, "Brimstone" <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Doug wrote:
>>> On 17 May, 09:28, Tony Dragon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> Doug wrote:
>>>>> On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>> Daniel Barlow wrote:
>>>>>>> "Brimstone" <[email protected]> writes:
>>>>>>>> How can it be a victimless crime when a cyclist jumps a red
>>>>>>>> light, obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a
>>>>>>>> collision?
>>>>>>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
>>>>>>> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at
>>>>>>> Piccadilly Circus, then?
>>>>>> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles
>>>>>> passing the red light, or was the report limited to the fact of
>>>>>> them doing it?
>>>>> Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
>>>>> than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the same speed.
>>>>> Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is only
>>>>> 1,000kg. You can see the implication can't you? Cyclists 43 cars
>>>>> 270.
>>>>> --
>>>>> RoadPeace
>>>>> http://www.roadpeace.org/
>>>>> For road crash victims.
>>>> Could you answer this question for me to iron out any misconceptions?
>>>> Do you think it is OK for cyclists to break the law by going through
>>>> red lights?
>>> Depends what you mean by OK. If it is done to ensure their own safety
>>> without prejudicing the safety of others then maybe.

>> So that a "Yes" then.
>>
>>> Do you think it is OK for motorists to break the law by going through
>>> red lights?

>> No.
>>
>> Why do you have double standards Doug?

>
> In a word 'vulnerability'. Roads are not designed for bicycles, even
> though they pre-date cars, so a uniform law covering all forms of road
> transport can put cyclists seriously at risk.
>
> --
> World Carfree Network
> http://www.worldcarfree.net/
> Help for your car-addicted friends in the U.K.


Lets see, rural crossroad protected by traffic lights (road A crossing
road B)
Lights are green for road 'A'
Lights are red for road 'B'
Motor vehicle is driving a 30mph along road 'A'
Cyclist is riding at 20mph on road 'B'
Cyclist rides through red light.
Cyclist gets splattered by motor vehicle.
According to your new rules everybody was keeping to the law
Tell me who benefits from your new rules?

Now lets change the scenario slightly.
Substitute a second cyclist for the motor vehicle.
Tell me who benefits from your new rules?




--
Tony the Dragon
 
On 17 May, 19:57, JNugent <[email protected]> wrote:
> Tony Dragon wrote:
> >Squashmewrote:
> >> On 17 May, 09:44, Tony Dragon <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>> Doug wrote:
> >>>> On 17 May, 09:28, Tony Dragon <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>>> Doug wrote:
> >>>>>> On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>>>>> Daniel Barlow wrote:
> >>>>>>>> "Brimstone" <[email protected]> writes:
> >>>>>>>>> How can it be a victimless crime when a cyclist jumps a red light,
> >>>>>>>>> obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?
> >>>>>>>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
> >>>>>>>> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at
> >>>>>>>> Piccadilly
> >>>>>>>> Circus, then?
> >>>>>>> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles
> >>>>>>> passing the red
> >>>>>>> light, or was the report limited to the fact of them doing it?
> >>>>>> Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
> >>>>>> than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the same speed.
> >>>>>> Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is only 1,000kg.
> >>>>>> You can see the implication can't you? Cyclists 43 cars 270.
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> RoadPeace
> >>>>>>http://www.roadpeace.org/
> >>>>>> For road crash victims.
> >>>>> Could you answer this question for me to iron out any misconceptions?
> >>>>> Do you think it is OK for cyclists to break the law by going
> >>>>> through red
> >>>>> lights?
> >>>> Depends what you mean by OK. If it is done to ensure their own safety
> >>>> without prejudicing the safety of others then maybe.
> >>> Thank you for your 'clear' reply.
> >>> You agree with cyclists breaking the law

>
> >>>> Do you think it is OK for motorists to break the law by going through
> >>>> red lights?
> >>> Motorist should not break the law by going through red light, except
> >>> when they are allowed to under the highway code e.g. instructed by a
> >>> police officer, where the lights are not working.
> >>> One exception that I don't think is mentioned in the HC would be to
> >>> carefully get out of the way of an emergency vehicle.

>
> >> In the right or in the wrong, cyclists die. But speed doesn't kill, of
> >> course.

>
> >> "A young woman who drove her Smart car through a red light at speed,
> >> hitting and killing a cyclist, has been jailed for 21 months.

>
> >> Sobbing Kerry Smith, 24, who had no previous convictions and a clean
> >> driving licence, drove west along Talgarth Road at 45mph in the 30mph
> >> limit and failed to stop at the red light on the junction with Gliddon
> >> Road, prosecutor Charles Burton told Isleworth Crown Court.

>
> >> "It was 9pm and the defendant failed to notice the lights were red and
> >> collided with cyclist Charlotte Morse, who was riding her bicycle from
> >> north to south across the junction with the lights at green in her
> >> favour," he said."

>
> >>http://www.richmondandtwickenhamtimes.co.uk/mostpopular.var.1822947.m...

>
> > Do you agree with cyclists breaking the law.

>
> Agree with it?
>
> He doesn't recognise the concept.


To self-quote from a couple of years ago on uk.legal:-

"As a cyclist, I am getting more and more angered by cyclists ignoring
red lights at pedestrian crossings, where the cars have managed to
stop
in time, and where I am waiting to wheel my bike across the road. Just
shouting "Buy a car, you [insert favoured term]" does not satisfy any
more. If I decide to walk out on to the crossing, when I have a green
man signal in my favour, in front of a speeding cyclist who is
obviously intent on not stopping, am I breaking a law? The cyclist is,
after all, intentionally intimidating me and others from crossing
(threatening behaviour?). And yes, I do realise that both of us may be
hurt.
Is there a right of self-defence in this situation? "

Also happens when I am walking across sans bike, of course.
 
On 17 May, 19:52, JNugent <[email protected]> wrote:
> Squashme wrote:
> > On 17 May, 09:44, Tony Dragon <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Doug wrote:
> >>> On 17 May, 09:28, Tony Dragon <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>> Doug wrote:
> >>>>> On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>>>> Daniel Barlow wrote:
> >>>>>>> "Brimstone" <[email protected]> writes:
> >>>>>>>> How can it be avictimlesscrime when a cyclist jumps a red light,
> >>>>>>>> obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?
> >>>>>>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
> >>>>>>> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at Piccadilly
> >>>>>>> Circus, then?
> >>>>>> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles passing the red
> >>>>>> light, or was the report limited to the fact of them doing it?
> >>>>> Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
> >>>>> than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the same speed.
> >>>>> Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is only 1,000kg.
> >>>>> You can see the implication can't you? Cyclists 43 cars 270.
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> RoadPeace
> >>>>>http://www.roadpeace.org/
> >>>>> For road crash victims.
> >>>> Could you answer this question for me to iron out any misconceptions?
> >>>> Do you think it is OK for cyclists to break the law by going through red
> >>>> lights?
> >>> Depends what you mean by OK. If it is done to ensure their own safety
> >>> without prejudicing the safety of others then maybe.
> >> Thank you for your 'clear' reply.
> >> You agree with cyclists breaking the law

>
> >>> Do you think it is OK for motorists to break the law by going through
> >>> red lights?
> >> Motorist should not break the law by going through red light, except
> >> when they are allowed to under the highway code e.g. instructed by a
> >> police officer, where the lights are not working.
> >> One exception that I don't think is mentioned in the HC would be to
> >> carefully get out of the way of an emergency vehicle.

> > In the right or in the wrong, cyclists die. But speed doesn't kill, of
> > course.
> > "A young woman who drove her Smart car through a red light at speed,
> > hitting and killing a cyclist, has been jailed for 21 months.
> > Sobbing Kerry Smith, 24, who had no previous convictions and a clean
> > driving licence, drove west along Talgarth Road at 45mph in the 30mph
> > limit and failed to stop at the red light on the junction with Gliddon
> > Road, prosecutor Charles Burton told Isleworth Crown Court.
> > "It was 9pm and the defendant failed to notice the lights were red and
> > collided with cyclist Charlotte Morse, who was riding her bicycle from
> > north to south across the junction with the lights at green in her
> > favour," he said."
> >http://www.richmondandtwickenhamtimes.co.uk/mostpopular.var.1822947.m...

>
> Is anyone defending the driver's actions?


Does speed kill?
 
On 17 May, 19:51, Tony Dragon <[email protected]> wrote:
> Squashme wrote:
> > On 17 May, 09:44, Tony Dragon <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Doug wrote:
> >>> On 17 May, 09:28, Tony Dragon <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>> Doug wrote:
> >>>>> On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>>>> Daniel Barlow wrote:
> >>>>>>> "Brimstone" <[email protected]> writes:
> >>>>>>>> How can it be a victimless crime when a cyclist jumps a red light,
> >>>>>>>> obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?
> >>>>>>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
> >>>>>>> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at Piccadilly
> >>>>>>> Circus, then?
> >>>>>> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles passing the red
> >>>>>> light, or was the report limited to the fact of them doing it?
> >>>>> Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
> >>>>> than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the samespeed.
> >>>>> Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is only 1,000kg.
> >>>>> You can see the implication can't you? Cyclists 43 cars 270.
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> RoadPeace
> >>>>>http://www.roadpeace.org/
> >>>>> For road crash victims.
> >>>> Could you answer this question for me to iron out any misconceptions?
> >>>> Do you think it is OK for cyclists to break the law by going through red
> >>>> lights?
> >>> Depends what you mean by OK. If it is done to ensure their own safety
> >>> without prejudicing the safety of others then maybe.
> >> Thank you for your 'clear' reply.
> >> You agree with cyclists breaking the law

>
> >>> Do you think it is OK for motorists to break the law by going through
> >>> red lights?
> >> Motorist should not break the law by going through red light, except
> >> when they are allowed to under the highway code e.g. instructed by a
> >> police officer, where the lights are not working.
> >> One exception that I don't think is mentioned in the HC would be to
> >> carefully get out of the way of an emergency vehicle.

>
> > In the right or in the wrong, cyclists die. Butspeeddoesn't kill, of
> > course.

>
> > "A young woman who drove her Smart car through a red light atspeed,
> > hitting and killing a cyclist, has been jailed for 21 months.

>
> > Sobbing Kerry Smith, 24, who had no previous convictions and a clean
> > driving licence, drove west along Talgarth Road at 45mph in the 30mph
> > limit and failed to stop at the red light on the junction with Gliddon
> > Road, prosecutor Charles Burton told Isleworth Crown Court.

>
> > "It was 9pm and the defendant failed to notice the lights were red and
> > collided with cyclist Charlotte Morse, who was riding her bicycle from
> > north to south across the junction with the lights at green in her
> > favour," he said."

>
> >http://www.richmondandtwickenhamtimes.co.uk/mostpopular.var.1822947.m...

>
> Do you agree with cyclists breaking the law.
>


Which law are they breaking?
 
Squashme wrote:
> On 17 May, 19:51, Tony Dragon <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Squashme wrote:
>>> On 17 May, 09:44, Tony Dragon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> Doug wrote:
>>>>> On 17 May, 09:28, Tony Dragon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>> Doug wrote:
>>>>>>> On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Daniel Barlow wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "Brimstone" <[email protected]> writes:
>>>>>>>>>> How can it be a victimless crime when a cyclist jumps a red light,
>>>>>>>>>> obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?
>>>>>>>>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
>>>>>>>>> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at Piccadilly
>>>>>>>>> Circus, then?
>>>>>>>> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles passing the red
>>>>>>>> light, or was the report limited to the fact of them doing it?
>>>>>>> Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
>>>>>>> than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the samespeed.
>>>>>>> Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is only 1,000kg.
>>>>>>> You can see the implication can't you? Cyclists 43 cars 270.
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> RoadPeace
>>>>>>> http://www.roadpeace.org/
>>>>>>> For road crash victims.
>>>>>> Could you answer this question for me to iron out any misconceptions?
>>>>>> Do you think it is OK for cyclists to break the law by going through red
>>>>>> lights?
>>>>> Depends what you mean by OK. If it is done to ensure their own safety
>>>>> without prejudicing the safety of others then maybe.
>>>> Thank you for your 'clear' reply.
>>>> You agree with cyclists breaking the law
>>>>> Do you think it is OK for motorists to break the law by going through
>>>>> red lights?
>>>> Motorist should not break the law by going through red light, except
>>>> when they are allowed to under the highway code e.g. instructed by a
>>>> police officer, where the lights are not working.
>>>> One exception that I don't think is mentioned in the HC would be to
>>>> carefully get out of the way of an emergency vehicle.
>>> In the right or in the wrong, cyclists die. Butspeeddoesn't kill, of
>>> course.
>>> "A young woman who drove her Smart car through a red light atspeed,
>>> hitting and killing a cyclist, has been jailed for 21 months.
>>> Sobbing Kerry Smith, 24, who had no previous convictions and a clean
>>> driving licence, drove west along Talgarth Road at 45mph in the 30mph
>>> limit and failed to stop at the red light on the junction with Gliddon
>>> Road, prosecutor Charles Burton told Isleworth Crown Court.
>>> "It was 9pm and the defendant failed to notice the lights were red and
>>> collided with cyclist Charlotte Morse, who was riding her bicycle from
>>> north to south across the junction with the lights at green in her
>>> favour," he said."
>>> http://www.richmondandtwickenhamtimes.co.uk/mostpopular.var.1822947.m...

>> Do you agree with cyclists breaking the law.
>>

>
> Which law are they breaking?


Does it make any difference?
I will ask you as well.
Do you agree with cyclist breaking the law?
Please try to answer in a coherent way so there is no mistake in your
answer.

--
Tony the Dragon
 
On 18 May, 16:33, Tony Dragon <[email protected]> wrote:
> Squashme wrote:
> > On 17 May, 19:51, Tony Dragon <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Squashme wrote:
> >>> On 17 May, 09:44, Tony Dragon <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>> Doug wrote:
> >>>>> On 17 May, 09:28, Tony Dragon <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>>>> Doug wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Daniel Barlow wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> "Brimstone" <[email protected]> writes:
> >>>>>>>>>> How can it be a victimless crime when a cyclist jumps a red light,
> >>>>>>>>>> obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?
> >>>>>>>>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
> >>>>>>>>> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at Piccadilly
> >>>>>>>>> Circus, then?
> >>>>>>>> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles passing the red
> >>>>>>>> light, or was the report limited to the fact of them doing it?
> >>>>>>> Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
> >>>>>>> than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the samespeed.
> >>>>>>> Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is only 1,000kg.
> >>>>>>> You can see the implication can't you? Cyclists 43 cars 270.
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> RoadPeace
> >>>>>>>http://www.roadpeace.org/
> >>>>>>> For road crash victims.
> >>>>>> Could you answer this question for me to iron out any misconceptions?
> >>>>>> Do you think it is OK for cyclists to break the law by going through red
> >>>>>> lights?
> >>>>> Depends what you mean by OK. If it is done to ensure their own safety
> >>>>> without prejudicing the safety of others then maybe.
> >>>> Thank you for your 'clear' reply.
> >>>> You agree with cyclists breaking the law
> >>>>> Do you think it is OK for motorists to break the law by going through
> >>>>> red lights?
> >>>> Motorist should not break the law by going through red light, except
> >>>> when they are allowed to under the highway code e.g. instructed by a
> >>>> police officer, where the lights are not working.
> >>>> One exception that I don't think is mentioned in the HC would be to
> >>>> carefully get out of the way of an emergency vehicle.
> >>> In the right or in the wrong, cyclists die. Butspeeddoesn't kill, of
> >>> course.
> >>> "A young woman who drove her Smart car through a red light atspeed,
> >>> hitting and killing a cyclist, has been jailed for 21 months.
> >>> Sobbing Kerry Smith, 24, who had no previous convictions and a clean
> >>> driving licence, drove west along Talgarth Road at 45mph in the 30mph
> >>> limit and failed to stop at the red light on the junction with Gliddon
> >>> Road, prosecutor Charles Burton told Isleworth Crown Court.
> >>> "It was 9pm and the defendant failed to notice the lights were red and
> >>> collided with cyclist Charlotte Morse, who was riding her bicycle from
> >>> north to south across the junction with the lights at green in her
> >>> favour," he said."
> >>>http://www.richmondandtwickenhamtimes.co.uk/mostpopular.var.1822947.m...
> >> Do you agree with cyclists breaking the law.

>
> > Which law are they breaking?

>
> Does it make any difference?


Yes it does.

> I will ask you as well.


I thought that you were already.

> Do you agree with cyclist breaking the law?


Do you agree with motorists breaking the law?

> Please try to answer in a coherent way so there is no mistake in your
> answer.


Coherent, with no mistakes? I'd stand out on uk.transport.
 
On 17 May, 19:52, JNugent <[email protected]> wrote:
> Squashme wrote:
> > On 17 May, 09:44, Tony Dragon <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Doug wrote:
> >>> On 17 May, 09:28, Tony Dragon <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>> Doug wrote:
> >>>>> On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>>>> Daniel Barlow wrote:
> >>>>>>> "Brimstone" <[email protected]> writes:
> >>>>>>>> How can it be a victimless crime when a cyclist jumps a red light,
> >>>>>>>> obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?
> >>>>>>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
> >>>>>>> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at Piccadilly
> >>>>>>> Circus, then?
> >>>>>> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles passing the red
> >>>>>> light, or was the report limited to the fact of them doing it?
> >>>>> Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
> >>>>> than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the same speed.
> >>>>> Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is only 1,000kg.
> >>>>> You can see the implication can't you? Cyclists 43 cars 270.
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> RoadPeace
> >>>>>http://www.roadpeace.org/
> >>>>> For road crash victims.
> >>>> Could you answer this question for me to iron out any misconceptions?
> >>>> Do you think it is OK for cyclists to break the law by going through red
> >>>> lights?
> >>> Depends what you mean by OK. If it is done to ensure their own safety
> >>> without prejudicing the safety of others then maybe.
> >> Thank you for your 'clear' reply.
> >> You agree with cyclists breaking the law

>
> >>> Do you think it is OK for motorists to break the law by going through
> >>> red lights?
> >> Motorist should not break the law by going through red light, except
> >> when they are allowed to under the highway code e.g. instructed by a
> >> police officer, where the lights are not working.
> >> One exception that I don't think is mentioned in the HC would be to
> >> carefully get out of the way of an emergency vehicle.

> > In the right or in the wrong, cyclists die. But speed doesn't kill, of
> > course.
> > "A young woman who drove her Smart car through a red light at speed,
> > hitting and killing a cyclist, has been jailed for 21 months.
> > Sobbing Kerry Smith, 24, who had no previous convictions and a clean
> > driving licence, drove west along Talgarth Road at 45mph in the 30mph
> > limit and failed to stop at the red light on the junction with Gliddon
> > Road, prosecutor Charles Burton told Isleworth Crown Court.
> > "It was 9pm and the defendant failed to notice the lights were red and
> > collided with cyclist Charlotte Morse, who was riding her bicycle from
> > north to south across the junction with the lights at green in her
> > favour," he said."
> >http://www.richmondandtwickenhamtimes.co.uk/mostpopular.var.1822947.m...

>
> Is anyone defending the driver's actions?


Nobody seems to be willing to defend the driver, despite your plea.
Why don't you have a go? You must have some sympathy for a fellow
motorist, who had apparently been as innocent as the majority of
drivers up to that unfortunate moment.
 
Squashme wrote:
> On 17 May, 19:52, JNugent <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Squashme wrote:
>>> On 17 May, 09:44, Tony Dragon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> Doug wrote:
>>>>> On 17 May, 09:28, Tony Dragon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>> Doug wrote:
>>>>>>> On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Daniel Barlow wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "Brimstone" <[email protected]> writes:
>>>>>>>>>> How can it be avictimlesscrime when a cyclist jumps a red light,
>>>>>>>>>> obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?
>>>>>>>>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
>>>>>>>>> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at Piccadilly
>>>>>>>>> Circus, then?
>>>>>>>> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles passing the red
>>>>>>>> light, or was the report limited to the fact of them doing it?
>>>>>>> Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
>>>>>>> than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the same speed.
>>>>>>> Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is only 1,000kg.
>>>>>>> You can see the implication can't you? Cyclists 43 cars 270.
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> RoadPeace
>>>>>>> http://www.roadpeace.org/
>>>>>>> For road crash victims.
>>>>>> Could you answer this question for me to iron out any misconceptions?
>>>>>> Do you think it is OK for cyclists to break the law by going through red
>>>>>> lights?
>>>>> Depends what you mean by OK. If it is done to ensure their own safety
>>>>> without prejudicing the safety of others then maybe.
>>>> Thank you for your 'clear' reply.
>>>> You agree with cyclists breaking the law
>>>>> Do you think it is OK for motorists to break the law by going through
>>>>> red lights?
>>>> Motorist should not break the law by going through red light, except
>>>> when they are allowed to under the highway code e.g. instructed by a
>>>> police officer, where the lights are not working.
>>>> One exception that I don't think is mentioned in the HC would be to
>>>> carefully get out of the way of an emergency vehicle.
>>> In the right or in the wrong, cyclists die. But speed doesn't kill, of
>>> course.
>>> "A young woman who drove her Smart car through a red light at speed,
>>> hitting and killing a cyclist, has been jailed for 21 months.
>>> Sobbing Kerry Smith, 24, who had no previous convictions and a clean
>>> driving licence, drove west along Talgarth Road at 45mph in the 30mph
>>> limit and failed to stop at the red light on the junction with Gliddon
>>> Road, prosecutor Charles Burton told Isleworth Crown Court.
>>> "It was 9pm and the defendant failed to notice the lights were red and
>>> collided with cyclist Charlotte Morse, who was riding her bicycle from
>>> north to south across the junction with the lights at green in her
>>> favour," he said."
>>> http://www.richmondandtwickenhamtimes.co.uk/mostpopular.var.1822947.m...


>> Is anyone defending the driver's actions?


> Does speed kill?


No, otherwise I'd have died the last time I flew.

Is anyone defending the driver's actions?
 
Squashme wrote:
> On 17 May, 19:57, JNugent <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Tony Dragon wrote:
>>> Squashmewrote:
>>>> On 17 May, 09:44, Tony Dragon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> Doug wrote:
>>>>>> On 17 May, 09:28, Tony Dragon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>> Doug wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Daniel Barlow wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> "Brimstone" <[email protected]> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>> How can it be a victimless crime when a cyclist jumps a red light,
>>>>>>>>>>> obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?
>>>>>>>>>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
>>>>>>>>>> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at
>>>>>>>>>> Piccadilly
>>>>>>>>>> Circus, then?
>>>>>>>>> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles
>>>>>>>>> passing the red
>>>>>>>>> light, or was the report limited to the fact of them doing it?
>>>>>>>> Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
>>>>>>>> than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the same speed.
>>>>>>>> Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is only 1,000kg.
>>>>>>>> You can see the implication can't you? Cyclists 43 cars 270.
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> RoadPeace
>>>>>>>> http://www.roadpeace.org/
>>>>>>>> For road crash victims.
>>>>>>> Could you answer this question for me to iron out any misconceptions?
>>>>>>> Do you think it is OK for cyclists to break the law by going
>>>>>>> through red
>>>>>>> lights?
>>>>>> Depends what you mean by OK. If it is done to ensure their own safety
>>>>>> without prejudicing the safety of others then maybe.
>>>>> Thank you for your 'clear' reply.
>>>>> You agree with cyclists breaking the law
>>>>>> Do you think it is OK for motorists to break the law by going through
>>>>>> red lights?
>>>>> Motorist should not break the law by going through red light, except
>>>>> when they are allowed to under the highway code e.g. instructed by a
>>>>> police officer, where the lights are not working.
>>>>> One exception that I don't think is mentioned in the HC would be to
>>>>> carefully get out of the way of an emergency vehicle.
>>>> In the right or in the wrong, cyclists die. But speed doesn't kill, of
>>>> course.
>>>> "A young woman who drove her Smart car through a red light at speed,
>>>> hitting and killing a cyclist, has been jailed for 21 months.
>>>> Sobbing Kerry Smith, 24, who had no previous convictions and a clean
>>>> driving licence, drove west along Talgarth Road at 45mph in the 30mph
>>>> limit and failed to stop at the red light on the junction with Gliddon
>>>> Road, prosecutor Charles Burton told Isleworth Crown Court.
>>>> "It was 9pm and the defendant failed to notice the lights were red and
>>>> collided with cyclist Charlotte Morse, who was riding her bicycle from
>>>> north to south across the junction with the lights at green in her
>>>> favour," he said."
>>>> http://www.richmondandtwickenhamtimes.co.uk/mostpopular.var.1822947.m...


>>> Do you agree with cyclists breaking the law.


>> Agree with it?
>> He doesn't recognise the concept.


> To self-quote from a couple of years ago on uk.legal:-


> "As a cyclist, I am getting more and more angered by cyclists ignoring
> red lights at pedestrian crossings, where the cars have managed to
> stop
> in time, and where I am waiting to wheel my bike across the road. Just
> shouting "Buy a car, you [insert favoured term]" does not satisfy any
> more. If I decide to walk out on to the crossing, when I have a green
> man signal in my favour, in front of a speeding cyclist who is
> obviously intent on not stopping, am I breaking a law? The cyclist is,
> after all, intentionally intimidating me and others from crossing
> (threatening behaviour?). And yes, I do realise that both of us may be
> hurt.
> Is there a right of self-defence in this situation? "


> Also happens when I am walking across sans bike, of course.


Haven't you (more recently) defended RLJ-jumping by cyclists at
junctions? And footway-cycling?
 
On 18 May, 17:19, JNugent <[email protected]> wrote:
> Squashme wrote:
> > On 17 May, 19:52, JNugent <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Squashme wrote:
> >>> On 17 May, 09:44, Tony Dragon <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>> Doug wrote:
> >>>>> On 17 May, 09:28, Tony Dragon <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>>>> Doug wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Daniel Barlow wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> "Brimstone" <[email protected]> writes:
> >>>>>>>>>> How can it be avictimlesscrime when a cyclist jumps a red light,
> >>>>>>>>>> obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?
> >>>>>>>>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
> >>>>>>>>> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at Piccadilly
> >>>>>>>>> Circus, then?
> >>>>>>>> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles passing the red
> >>>>>>>> light, or was the report limited to the fact of them doing it?
> >>>>>>> Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
> >>>>>>> than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the same speed.
> >>>>>>> Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is only 1,000kg.
> >>>>>>> You can see the implication can't you? Cyclists 43 cars 270.
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> RoadPeace
> >>>>>>>http://www.roadpeace.org/
> >>>>>>> For road crash victims.
> >>>>>> Could you answer this question for me to iron out any misconceptions?
> >>>>>> Do you think it is OK for cyclists to break the law by going through red
> >>>>>> lights?
> >>>>> Depends what you mean by OK. If it is done to ensure their own safety
> >>>>> without prejudicing the safety of others then maybe.
> >>>> Thank you for your 'clear' reply.
> >>>> You agree with cyclists breaking the law
> >>>>> Do you think it is OK for motorists to break the law by going through
> >>>>> red lights?
> >>>> Motorist should not break the law by going through red light, except
> >>>> when they are allowed to under the highway code e.g. instructed by a
> >>>> police officer, where the lights are not working.
> >>>> One exception that I don't think is mentioned in the HC would be to
> >>>> carefully get out of the way of an emergency vehicle.
> >>> In the right or in the wrong, cyclists die. But speed doesn't kill, of
> >>> course.
> >>> "A young woman who drove her Smart car through a red light at speed,
> >>> hitting and killing a cyclist, has been jailed for 21 months.
> >>> Sobbing Kerry Smith, 24, who had no previous convictions and a clean
> >>> driving licence, drove west along Talgarth Road at 45mph in the 30mph
> >>> limit and failed to stop at the red light on the junction with Gliddon
> >>> Road, prosecutor Charles Burton told Isleworth Crown Court.
> >>> "It was 9pm and the defendant failed to notice the lights were red and
> >>> collided with cyclist Charlotte Morse, who was riding her bicycle from
> >>> north to south across the junction with the lights at green in her
> >>> favour," he said."
> >>>http://www.richmondandtwickenhamtimes.co.uk/mostpopular.var.1822947.m...
> >> Is anyone defending the driver's actions?

> > Does speed kill?

>
> No, otherwise I'd have died the last time I flew.


Number 39 on standard response list.
>
> Is anyone defending the driver's actions?


Yes, you are now. You defend her speed.
 
Squashme wrote:
> On 18 May, 16:33, Tony Dragon <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Squashme wrote:
>>> On 17 May, 19:51, Tony Dragon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> Squashme wrote:
>>>>> On 17 May, 09:44, Tony Dragon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>> Doug wrote:
>>>>>>> On 17 May, 09:28, Tony Dragon <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Doug wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 15 May, 21:32, "Brimstone" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Daniel Barlow wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> "Brimstone" <[email protected]> writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>> How can it be a victimless crime when a cyclist jumps a red light,
>>>>>>>>>>>> obstructs the path of another vehicle and causes a collision?
>>>>>>>>>>> Interesting, that wasn't mentioned in the report I read. How many
>>>>>>>>>>> times did that happen in the aforementioned three hours at Piccadilly
>>>>>>>>>>> Circus, then?
>>>>>>>>>> Was there any mention of the consequences of those vehicles passing the red
>>>>>>>>>> light, or was the report limited to the fact of them doing it?
>>>>>>>>> Well we know that the impact force from a car is very much greater
>>>>>>>>> than that from a bicycle even when they are going at the samespeed.
>>>>>>>>> Let's say the bike and rider weigh 100kg and the car is only 1,000kg.
>>>>>>>>> You can see the implication can't you? Cyclists 43 cars 270.
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> RoadPeace
>>>>>>>>> http://www.roadpeace.org/
>>>>>>>>> For road crash victims.
>>>>>>>> Could you answer this question for me to iron out any misconceptions?
>>>>>>>> Do you think it is OK for cyclists to break the law by going through red
>>>>>>>> lights?
>>>>>>> Depends what you mean by OK. If it is done to ensure their own safety
>>>>>>> without prejudicing the safety of others then maybe.
>>>>>> Thank you for your 'clear' reply.
>>>>>> You agree with cyclists breaking the law
>>>>>>> Do you think it is OK for motorists to break the law by going through
>>>>>>> red lights?
>>>>>> Motorist should not break the law by going through red light, except
>>>>>> when they are allowed to under the highway code e.g. instructed by a
>>>>>> police officer, where the lights are not working.
>>>>>> One exception that I don't think is mentioned in the HC would be to
>>>>>> carefully get out of the way of an emergency vehicle.
>>>>> In the right or in the wrong, cyclists die. Butspeeddoesn't kill, of
>>>>> course.
>>>>> "A young woman who drove her Smart car through a red light atspeed,
>>>>> hitting and killing a cyclist, has been jailed for 21 months.
>>>>> Sobbing Kerry Smith, 24, who had no previous convictions and a clean
>>>>> driving licence, drove west along Talgarth Road at 45mph in the 30mph
>>>>> limit and failed to stop at the red light on the junction with Gliddon
>>>>> Road, prosecutor Charles Burton told Isleworth Crown Court.
>>>>> "It was 9pm and the defendant failed to notice the lights were red and
>>>>> collided with cyclist Charlotte Morse, who was riding her bicycle from
>>>>> north to south across the junction with the lights at green in her
>>>>> favour," he said."
>>>>> http://www.richmondandtwickenhamtimes.co.uk/mostpopular.var.1822947.m...
>>>> Do you agree with cyclists breaking the law.
>>> Which law are they breaking?

>> Does it make any difference?

>
> Yes it does.
>
>> I will ask you as well.

>
> I thought that you were already.
>
>> Do you agree with cyclist breaking the law?

>
> Do you agree with motorists breaking the law?
>
>> Please try to answer in a coherent way so there is no mistake in your
>> answer.


> Coherent, with no mistakes? I'd stand out on uk.transport.


Then let me add my voice to the chorus of those asking you the same
question. But, to be fair to you, let's make it clearer.

The laws being spoken of here are the traffic rules which apply to
road-users. Examples include (but are not limited to) the requirement to
stop at red traffic lights (whether at pelicon crossings or road
junctions), to not travel in or on a vehicle along a footway or area
reserved for pedestrian use (especially in central urban areas) and the
requirement to comply with one way working (whether on dual carriageways
or in one-way-street systems). There are others.

I don't think anyone was asking you about armed robbery, domestic
violence, high treason or buggery.
 

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