Re: Sheiko q for Hobbes (and/or anyone else with a clue)

Discussion in 'General Fitness' started by elzinator, Feb 25, 2005.

  1. elzinator

    elzinator Guest

    Hobbes wrote:
    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > "geek_girl" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > I just started doing one of the Sheiko "beginner" programs (ha!)

    and
    > > found out last night that I can't do "squats 'scissors'", a.k.a.
    > > lunges. This is because of my ankle issues, which are much better

    than
    > > they were but apparently still not 100%, and probably never will

    be.
    > > Anyway, I thought about doing some front squats instead, but my

    lower
    > > back was already fried from the other stuff. I ended up just doing

    some
    > > step-ups, but I was wondering if you had any other suggestions for
    > > replacement exercises.
    > >
    > > BTW I keep meaning to thank you for the DL suggestions you gave me

    a
    > > while back. They helped a lot. So, uhhh, thanks!

    >
    > You're welcome.
    >
    > I think. Can't remember what I suggested.
    >
    > Anyhow - step-ups are a fine alternative exercise and one approved by
    > coach Sheiko.


    "Approved"? Oh please.....

    Why not weighted step ups or front squats (less low back involvement in
    both and more 'ankle' friendly than your suggestions below)?

    > The split squat can also be modified. So instead of doing a wide
    > front/back split you could do a 'side' split, if you will. You may

    find
    > that easier on your ankle. So what you would do is an extremely wide
    > stance and then only squat on one leg. You may want to do this to a

    box or
    > bench for safety.


    Be mindful of your pelvis joints and low back on these. Female anatomy
    is an issue.
     
    Tags:


  2. Hobbes

    Hobbes Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    "elzinator" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Hobbes wrote:
    > > In article <[email protected]>,
    > > "geek_girl" <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > > > I just started doing one of the Sheiko "beginner" programs (ha!)

    > and
    > > > found out last night that I can't do "squats 'scissors'", a.k.a.
    > > > lunges. This is because of my ankle issues, which are much better

    > than
    > > > they were but apparently still not 100%, and probably never will

    > be.
    > > > Anyway, I thought about doing some front squats instead, but my

    > lower
    > > > back was already fried from the other stuff. I ended up just doing

    > some
    > > > step-ups, but I was wondering if you had any other suggestions for
    > > > replacement exercises.
    > > >
    > > > BTW I keep meaning to thank you for the DL suggestions you gave me

    > a
    > > > while back. They helped a lot. So, uhhh, thanks!

    > >
    > > You're welcome.
    > >
    > > I think. Can't remember what I suggested.
    > >
    > > Anyhow - step-ups are a fine alternative exercise and one approved by
    > > coach Sheiko.

    >
    > "Approved"? Oh please.....
    >
    > Why not weighted step ups or front squats (less low back involvement in
    > both and more 'ankle' friendly than your suggestions below)?


    Ummm...

    She said she tried front squats and felt her back was too fried. I
    initially was going to say you should be able to do them without loading
    the back, but she is right. You have to keep upright in the front squat
    and it may be hard to do.

    The weighted step-ups are the 'approved' Sheiko exercise - meaning they
    are on a list of alternatives. She is already doing them and I said that
    is a fine alternative.

    Get some coffee down Elzi!!!
     
  3. elzinator

    elzinator Guest

    Hobbes wrote:
    > In article <[email protected]>,
    > "elzinator" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >
    > > Hobbes wrote:
    > > > In article

    <[email protected]>,
    > > > "geek_girl" <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > >
    > > > > I just started doing one of the Sheiko "beginner" programs

    (ha!)
    > > and
    > > > > found out last night that I can't do "squats 'scissors'",

    a.k.a.
    > > > > lunges. This is because of my ankle issues, which are much

    better
    > > than
    > > > > they were but apparently still not 100%, and probably never

    will
    > > be.
    > > > > Anyway, I thought about doing some front squats instead, but my

    > > lower
    > > > > back was already fried from the other stuff. I ended up just

    doing
    > > some
    > > > > step-ups, but I was wondering if you had any other suggestions

    for
    > > > > replacement exercises.
    > > > >
    > > > > BTW I keep meaning to thank you for the DL suggestions you gave

    me
    > > a
    > > > > while back. They helped a lot. So, uhhh, thanks!
    > > >
    > > > You're welcome.
    > > >
    > > > I think. Can't remember what I suggested.
    > > >
    > > > Anyhow - step-ups are a fine alternative exercise and one

    approved by
    > > > coach Sheiko.

    > >
    > > "Approved"? Oh please.....
    > >
    > > Why not weighted step ups or front squats (less low back

    involvement in
    > > both and more 'ankle' friendly than your suggestions below)?

    >
    > Ummm...
    >
    > She said she tried front squats and felt her back was too fried.


    Reading comprehension test: She typed that she "thought" about doing
    front squats, but her back was "too fried." I didn't interpret that she
    actually did them and determined they were too taxing. We also know
    that front squats use less back than back squats, which is why FS were
    all I could do for years due to back and pelvis issues (more low back
    than pelvis).

    SJ can interject here and offer clarification.

    >I initially was going to say you should be able to do them without

    loading
    > the back, but she is right. You have to keep upright in the front

    squat
    > and it may be hard to do.


    That depends on form. I know several who both FS and RS and find FS
    recruit the back less than RS. I often do FS both before and after my
    RS for that reason.

    > The weighted step-ups are the 'approved' Sheiko exercise - meaning

    they
    > are on a list of alternatives. She is already doing them and I said

    that
    > is a fine alternative.


    I agreed with you. But I also wanted to drive home that in my opinion,
    weighted step-ups are probably the best alternative for her, providing
    she performs them correctly. (most people don't)

    > Get some coffee down Elzi!!!


    Got some brewing.

    Not trying to be contentious, but I didn't agree with you on one point,
    and another (maybe both)needed clarification (I get a bit responsive to
    regimented training styles :). Didn't mean to scare you.
     
  4. Hobbes

    Hobbes Guest

    In article <[email protected]>,
    "elzinator" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Hobbes wrote:
    > > In article <[email protected]>,
    > > "elzinator" <[email protected]> wrote:
    > >
    > > > Hobbes wrote:
    > > > > In article

    > <1109280978.[email protected]>,
    > > > > "geek_girl" <[email protected]> wrote:
    > > > >
    > > > > > I just started doing one of the Sheiko "beginner" programs

    > (ha!)
    > > > and
    > > > > > found out last night that I can't do "squats 'scissors'",

    > a.k.a.
    > > > > > lunges. This is because of my ankle issues, which are much

    > better
    > > > than
    > > > > > they were but apparently still not 100%, and probably never

    > will
    > > > be.
    > > > > > Anyway, I thought about doing some front squats instead, but my
    > > > lower
    > > > > > back was already fried from the other stuff. I ended up just

    > doing
    > > > some
    > > > > > step-ups, but I was wondering if you had any other suggestions

    > for
    > > > > > replacement exercises.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > BTW I keep meaning to thank you for the DL suggestions you gave

    > me
    > > > a
    > > > > > while back. They helped a lot. So, uhhh, thanks!
    > > > >
    > > > > You're welcome.
    > > > >
    > > > > I think. Can't remember what I suggested.
    > > > >
    > > > > Anyhow - step-ups are a fine alternative exercise and one

    > approved by
    > > > > coach Sheiko.
    > > >
    > > > "Approved"? Oh please.....
    > > >
    > > > Why not weighted step ups or front squats (less low back

    > involvement in
    > > > both and more 'ankle' friendly than your suggestions below)?

    > >
    > > Ummm...
    > >
    > > She said she tried front squats and felt her back was too fried.

    >
    > Reading comprehension test: She typed that she "thought" about doing
    > front squats, but her back was "too fried." I didn't interpret that she
    > actually did them and determined they were too taxing. We also know
    > that front squats use less back than back squats, which is why FS were
    > all I could do for years due to back and pelvis issues (more low back
    > than pelvis).
    >
    > SJ can interject here and offer clarification.
    >
    > >I initially was going to say you should be able to do them without

    > loading
    > > the back, but she is right. You have to keep upright in the front

    > squat
    > > and it may be hard to do.

    >
    > That depends on form. I know several who both FS and RS and find FS
    > recruit the back less than RS. I often do FS both before and after my
    > RS for that reason.
    >
    > > The weighted step-ups are the 'approved' Sheiko exercise - meaning

    > they
    > > are on a list of alternatives. She is already doing them and I said

    > that
    > > is a fine alternative.

    >
    > I agreed with you. But I also wanted to drive home that in my opinion,
    > weighted step-ups are probably the best alternative for her, providing
    > she performs them correctly. (most people don't)
    >
    > > Get some coffee down Elzi!!!

    >
    > Got some brewing.
    >
    > Not trying to be contentious, but I didn't agree with you on one point,
    > and another (maybe both)needed clarification (I get a bit responsive to
    > regimented training styles :). Didn't mean to scare you.


    Gotcha. FWIW I agree. The nice thing about the Sheiko book is that he
    shows actual programs of his lifters and, while you can see consistency
    throughout, they are obviously indiviualized for each lifters unique
    situation. That often seems to get lost when people do 'Russian' or
    'Bulgarian' routines. They aren't cookie cutter - how can they be if you
    want each athletes to succeed?
     
  5. T

    T Guest

    Hobbes wrote:

    > Gotcha. FWIW I agree. The nice thing about the Sheiko book is that he
    > shows actual programs of his lifters and, while you can see consistency
    > throughout, they are obviously indiviualized for each lifters unique
    > situation. That often seems to get lost when people do 'Russian' or
    > 'Bulgarian' routines. They aren't cookie cutter - how can they be if you
    > want each athletes to succeed?


    The way I've heard it described, you devise a cookie cutter routine,
    apply it to a country full of talented people, and the champions survive
    - thrive - on it.

    Hard on the untalented ones, of course, but it points out that a country
    doesn't necessarily care if *each* athlete succeeds, as long as
    champions are created.
     
  6. Hobbes

    Hobbes Guest

    In article <[email protected]>, T <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Hobbes wrote:
    >
    > > Gotcha. FWIW I agree. The nice thing about the Sheiko book is that he
    > > shows actual programs of his lifters and, while you can see consistency
    > > throughout, they are obviously indiviualized for each lifters unique
    > > situation. That often seems to get lost when people do 'Russian' or
    > > 'Bulgarian' routines. They aren't cookie cutter - how can they be if you
    > > want each athletes to succeed?

    >
    > The way I've heard it described, you devise a cookie cutter routine,
    > apply it to a country full of talented people, and the champions survive
    > - thrive - on it.
    >
    > Hard on the untalented ones, of course, but it points out that a country
    > doesn't necessarily care if *each* athlete succeeds, as long as
    > champions are created.


    Sergei Mor's program is different than Sivokan's, for example.

    It's funny how these things propogate. There is no Russian or Bulgarian
    program - different coaches have different training programs. The Russians
    claim the Bulgarians don't care about longevity or their athletes as long
    as they produce champions and claim the Bulgarians rise to the top is due
    to drugs and restoratives - which they claim the Bulgarians got from their
    association with Americans. (See Taranenko interview on Sportivny.)

    Meanwhile that is pretty much exactly the claim western athletes made
    against the Russians - don't care about individuals and their medals are
    fueled by drugs. As if the Russians have superior drug technology.

    What is missing in terms of weightlifting is the culture of these
    countries and the economics of sport. Weightlifting and strength training
    are an important part of their culture - much more so than in North
    America. Sport over their is a big part of the culture and sport doesn't
    include football, baseball and basketball. Here we lose most of our best
    athletes to these three sports and you wonder why it is tough to compete?

    As well, the economics of sport are enormous in terms of success. The
    Australians have pretty much proven the best indicator of success in the
    olympics is funding dollars per athlete. In the eastern European countries
    the success of their athletes is dropping now. Why? The money isn't
    available for sports since the fall of communism.

    You want gold medals - you have to pay. For facilities; for coaches; so
    the athletes can focus on their training. You can't just throw money
    around - once again the Aussies have put together an exemplary program
    showing how to develop athletic talent. And ask anyone in the Kinesiology
    research field where the cutting edge studies are being done now - Oz
    comes up a lot. A lot. So you also have to have your scientists working
    with the coaches and athletes.

    It's not simple and it is certainly not so simple as people suggest
    regarding the Russians.
     
  7. Hobbes

    Hobbes Guest

    In article <Pine.OSX.4.58.05[email protected]>, geek_girl
    <[email protected]> wrote:


    > *Another Sheiko q for Keith here - I was having trouble figuring out
    > whether "deadlift from boxes" meant the lifter or the weight on the boxes,
    > but I noticed that the weights for that exercise went up to 90%, and
    > nothing else in the Sheiko routine goes that high, so I figured it meant
    > reduced rather than extended ROM and did rack pulls - is that right?


    Yup. Two deadlift alternatives - deadlifts from the boxes is reduced ROM
    (a good alternative exercise is band deadlifts!) and deadlifts on the
    boxes is extended ROM. If you pull conventional deadlifts from the boxes
    are just below the knees. pull Sumo and you go a little lower to the
    floor. Deadlift off boxes - I'd just stand on plates.

    --
    Keith
     
  8. elzinator

    elzinator Guest

    On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 18:23:34 -0600, geek_girl wrote:
    >
    >
    >On Fri, 25 Feb 2005, elzinator wrote:
    >
    >> Date: 25 Feb 2005 06:45:09 -0800
    >> From: elzinator <[email protected]>


    >> > > Why not weighted step ups or front squats (less low back

    >> involvement in
    >> > > both and more 'ankle' friendly than your suggestions below)?
    >> >
    >> > Ummm...
    >> >
    >> > She said she tried front squats and felt her back was too fried.

    >>
    >> Reading comprehension test: She typed that she "thought" about doing
    >> front squats, but her back was "too fried." I didn't interpret that she
    >> actually did them and determined they were too taxing. We also know
    >> that front squats use less back than back squats, which is why FS were
    >> all I could do for years due to back and pelvis issues (more low back
    >> than pelvis).
    >>
    >> SJ can interject here and offer clarification.

    >
    >SJ is interjecting and clarifying. You are correct; I did say that I
    >*thought* about doing front squats, not that I tried them. IME front
    >squats do use less back than back squats, but more back than I felt like I
    >had left - I had done regular DLs that morning, and I had just done heavy
    >rack pulls.*


    That information was not provided. I was unaware of your previous
    session.


    >> I agreed with you. But I also wanted to drive home that in my opinion,
    >> weighted step-ups are probably the best alternative for her, providing
    >> she performs them correctly. (most people don't)

    >
    >Hrmm. What do most people get wrong?


    See comments on this page: http://www.moleculegirl.com/Stepups.htm

    I also see alot of using the leg on the floor to provide momentum, or
    just general laziness: hyperlordosis, using hands/arms to help ascent
    by pushing against the leg on floor, etc.
    Just remember to keep the torso as upright as possible and using the
    leg to do all the work.


    ------------------------------
    Reality is an illusion created by an intelligence deficiency.
     
  9. John Hanson

    John Hanson Guest

    On 25 Feb 2005 06:45:09 -0800, "elzinator" <[email protected]>
    wrote in misc.fitness.weights:

    >
    >Hobbes wrote:
    >> In article <[email protected]>,
    >> "elzinator" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >>
    >> > Hobbes wrote:
    >> > > In article

    ><[email protected]>,
    >> > > "geek_girl" <[email protected]> wrote:
    >> > >
    >> > > > I just started doing one of the Sheiko "beginner" programs

    >(ha!)
    >> > and
    >> > > > found out last night that I can't do "squats 'scissors'",

    >a.k.a.
    >> > > > lunges. This is because of my ankle issues, which are much

    >better
    >> > than
    >> > > > they were but apparently still not 100%, and probably never

    >will
    >> > be.
    >> > > > Anyway, I thought about doing some front squats instead, but my
    >> > lower
    >> > > > back was already fried from the other stuff. I ended up just

    >doing
    >> > some
    >> > > > step-ups, but I was wondering if you had any other suggestions

    >for
    >> > > > replacement exercises.
    >> > > >
    >> > > > BTW I keep meaning to thank you for the DL suggestions you gave

    >me
    >> > a
    >> > > > while back. They helped a lot. So, uhhh, thanks!
    >> > >
    >> > > You're welcome.
    >> > >
    >> > > I think. Can't remember what I suggested.
    >> > >
    >> > > Anyhow - step-ups are a fine alternative exercise and one

    >approved by
    >> > > coach Sheiko.
    >> >
    >> > "Approved"? Oh please.....
    >> >
    >> > Why not weighted step ups or front squats (less low back

    >involvement in
    >> > both and more 'ankle' friendly than your suggestions below)?

    >>
    >> Ummm...
    >>
    >> She said she tried front squats and felt her back was too fried.

    >
    >Reading comprehension test: She typed that she "thought" about doing
    >front squats, but her back was "too fried." I didn't interpret that she
    >actually did them and determined they were too taxing. We also know
    >that front squats use less back than back squats, which is why FS were
    >all I could do for years due to back and pelvis issues (more low back
    >than pelvis).
    >

    I did front squats tonight. I've neglected them as of late and feel
    that they are the best exercise for keeping one upright in both the
    squat and the deadlift. I went light as it is my first week back but
    did them ass to grass as always. Actually, it's easier to do them ATG
    than just below parallel IMO. Oh, and, I didn't wear a belt all week.
    Does this make me a wanna be oly lifter?
     
  10. geek_girl

    geek_girl Guest

    On Fri, 25 Feb 2005, elzinator wrote:

    > Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2005 22:10:57 -0600
    > From: elzinator <[email protected]>
    > Reply-To: nospam.net
    > Newsgroups: misc.fitness.weights
    > Subject: Re: Sheiko q for Hobbes (and/or anyone else with a clue)
    >
    > On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 18:23:34 -0600, geek_girl wrote:
    > >
    > >
    > >On Fri, 25 Feb 2005, elzinator wrote:
    > >
    > >> Date: 25 Feb 2005 06:45:09 -0800
    > >> From: elzinator <[email protected]>

    >
    > >> > > Why not weighted step ups or front squats (less low back
    > >> involvement in
    > >> > > both and more 'ankle' friendly than your suggestions below)?
    > >> >
    > >> > Ummm...
    > >> >
    > >> > She said she tried front squats and felt her back was too fried.
    > >>
    > >> Reading comprehension test: She typed that she "thought" about doing
    > >> front squats, but her back was "too fried." I didn't interpret that she
    > >> actually did them and determined they were too taxing. We also know
    > >> that front squats use less back than back squats, which is why FS were
    > >> all I could do for years due to back and pelvis issues (more low back
    > >> than pelvis).
    > >>
    > >> SJ can interject here and offer clarification.

    > >
    > >SJ is interjecting and clarifying. You are correct; I did say that I
    > >*thought* about doing front squats, not that I tried them. IME front
    > >squats do use less back than back squats, but more back than I felt like I
    > >had left - I had done regular DLs that morning, and I had just done heavy
    > >rack pulls.*

    >
    > That information was not provided. I was unaware of your previous
    > session.


    Yup, that's why I clarified. I could have been clearer in my original post
    about how fatigued my back really was, and why.

    > >> I agreed with you. But I also wanted to drive home that in my opinion,
    > >> weighted step-ups are probably the best alternative for her, providing
    > >> she performs them correctly. (most people don't)

    > >
    > >Hrmm. What do most people get wrong?

    >
    > See comments on this page: http://www.moleculegirl.com/Stepups.htm
    >
    > I also see alot of using the leg on the floor to provide momentum, or
    > just general laziness: hyperlordosis, using hands/arms to help ascent
    > by pushing against the leg on floor, etc.
    > Just remember to keep the torso as upright as possible and using the
    > leg to do all the work.


    Ok, I'm pretty sure I was doing them right. Thanks!
     
  11. elzinator

    elzinator Guest

    On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 23:06:22 -0600, geek_girl wrote:
    >
    >
    >On Fri, 25 Feb 2005, elzinator wrote:


    >> >> I agreed with you. But I also wanted to drive home that in my opinion,
    >> >> weighted step-ups are probably the best alternative for her, providing
    >> >> she performs them correctly. (most people don't)
    >> >
    >> >Hrmm. What do most people get wrong?

    >>
    >> See comments on this page: http://www.moleculegirl.com/Stepups.htm
    >>
    >> I also see alot of using the leg on the floor to provide momentum, or
    >> just general laziness: hyperlordosis, using hands/arms to help ascent
    >> by pushing against the leg on floor, etc.
    >> Just remember to keep the torso as upright as possible and using the
    >> leg to do all the work.

    >
    >Ok, I'm pretty sure I was doing them right. Thanks!


    No problemo.

    BTW, any of the PL group down there competing in the Texas State
    Championships meet up here in April?

    --------------------------
    "All Hell can't stop us now!"
    - Rage Against the Machine
     
  12. elzinator

    elzinator Guest

    On Fri, 25 Feb 2005 23:06:20 -0600, John Hanson wrote:

    >I did front squats tonight. I've neglected them as of late and feel
    >that they are the best exercise for keeping one upright in both the
    >squat and the deadlift. I went light as it is my first week back but
    >did them ass to grass as always. Actually, it's easier to do them ATG
    >than just below parallel IMO. Oh, and, I didn't wear a belt all week.
    >Does this make me a wanna be oly lifter?


    At least a No-No-No lifter :)
    It's interesting to hear the increasing testimony of the
    cross-specificity of front squats to other lifts. I knew it, and Keith
    knew it, but most other lifters don't. I nearly converted one lifter
    at the gym, but he's never done them before and is nervous about them.
    I am the only one that does FS there. Which I found rather odd.......

    --------------------------
    "All Hell can't stop us now!"
    - Rage Against the Machine
     
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