Re: Shimano, IMBA Release MTB Economics "Study" (Read "Lies")



On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 17:01:48 GMT, "Jeff Strickland"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> <snip>

>
>They never write ANYTHING that isn't propaganda..
>>

>
>Now there's the pot calling the kettle black ...


Hmmm. IMBA & Shimano say "50 million Americans mountain bike". I say
far fewer. Which of us is right? DUH!
--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 17:01:48 GMT, "Jeff Strickland"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> <snip>

>>
>>They never write ANYTHING that isn't propaganda..
>>>

>>
>>Now there's the pot calling the kettle black ...

>
> Hmmm. IMBA & Shimano say "50 million Americans mountain bike". I say
> far fewer. Which of us is right? DUH!
> --


Maybe. But I see little of what you write that is not propaganda, and for
you to point out other's "propaganda" is hilarious.

Shimano probably knows how many gearsets it sells, and where they are
consumed. I suspect the 50M number is a bit high too, but I don't make and
sell gearsets, so I don't really know. But, I am not calling them liars, you
are. And when you call somebody a liar, that's a bit like the pot calling
the kettle black, ergo I'm right. Again.
 
Jeff Strickland wrote:

> Shimano probably knows how many gearsets it sells, and where they are
> consumed. I suspect the 50M number is a bit high too, but I don't make
> and sell gearsets, so I don't really know. But, I am not calling them
> liars, you are. And when you call somebody a liar, that's a bit like the
> pot calling the kettle black, ergo I'm right. Again.


Shimano never stated that 50 million Americans mountain bike. What they
said was "50 million Americans ride a mountain bike." What they didn't
say was that many of those mountain bikes are not ridden off-road, and
that in fact many could not be ridden off road for very long before
falling apart, being of the Target/Wal-Mart variety.

"http://bike.shimano.com/publish/content/cycle/sac/us/en/news_and_information/news0/shimano_and_imba_release.html"

It's a good cause that Shimano's become involved in since scientific
research has shown mountain biking to be a low impact environmentally
sustainable activity with no more impact on natural resources than
hiking, and far less than many other recreational activities.
 
"SMS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Jeff Strickland wrote:
>
>> Shimano probably knows how many gearsets it sells, and where they are
>> consumed. I suspect the 50M number is a bit high too, but I don't make
>> and sell gearsets, so I don't really know. But, I am not calling them
>> liars, you are. And when you call somebody a liar, that's a bit like the
>> pot calling the kettle black, ergo I'm right. Again.

>
> Shimano never stated that 50 million Americans mountain bike. What they
> said was "50 million Americans ride a mountain bike." What they didn't say
> was that many of those mountain bikes are not ridden off-road, and that in
> fact many could not be ridden off road for very long before falling apart,
> being of the Target/Wal-Mart variety.
>
> "http://bike.shimano.com/publish/content/cycle/sac/us/en/news_and_information/news0/shimano_and_imba_release.html"
>
> It's a good cause that Shimano's become involved in since scientific
> research has shown mountain biking to be a low impact environmentally
> sustainable activity with no more impact on natural resources than hiking,
> and far less than many other recreational activities.



Thanks, but I get all of that. I was responding to Vandeman's assertion that
there is no way for there to be 50M mountain bikes. He asserts that Shimano
is not in a position to know this sort of stuff.

I agree with the assessment that mountain biking is a low impact and
environmentally sustainable activity. I also agree that there are places
where the impact is quite high, but as a practical matter these areas (the
affected location of the high impact) is typically in the range of about 100
sq ft or less per location. Hardly a significant problem, and one that will
typically mend itself in short order as weather conditions change.

I would suggest that the typical bicycle route is going to be about 18
inches wide unless the route is also a motor vehicle route (in which case
the damage caused is more likely to be a result fo the motor vehicles that
the bicycles) and that areas where there is high impact are also areas where
there is water left standing after a rain. As the area dries out, the impact
returns to a low state, and while the area remains wet, any activity is
likely to be high impact for the duration of the standing water. So, for
there to be 100 square feet of high impact on an 18-inch route, the running
length of the impact has to be 66 feet, and that's a very long way. I'd
suggest that it is very rare for anybody to try and muddle through 66 feet
of mud and crud to get to where the trail is going. Indeed, the trail would
not go someplace where 66 feet of obsticles would be present and where high
impact is likely to be present.

Human nature and the laws of physics demands that the easy route be
followed. The demanding route is difficult to sustain over time, therefore
the easy route is the one that will be established. The easy route will be,
by definition, least problematic for the environment.
 
Jeff Strickland wrote:
>
> "SMS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Jeff Strickland wrote:
>>
>>> Shimano probably knows how many gearsets it sells, and where they are
>>> consumed. I suspect the 50M number is a bit high too, but I don't
>>> make and sell gearsets, so I don't really know. But, I am not calling
>>> them liars, you are. And when you call somebody a liar, that's a bit
>>> like the pot calling the kettle black, ergo I'm right. Again.

>>
>> Shimano never stated that 50 million Americans mountain bike. What
>> they said was "50 million Americans ride a mountain bike." What they
>> didn't say was that many of those mountain bikes are not ridden
>> off-road, and that in fact many could not be ridden off road for very
>> long before falling apart, being of the Target/Wal-Mart variety.
>>
>> "http://bike.shimano.com/publish/content/cycle/sac/us/en/news_and_information/news0/shimano_and_imba_release.html"
>>
>>
>> It's a good cause that Shimano's become involved in since scientific
>> research has shown mountain biking to be a low impact environmentally
>> sustainable activity with no more impact on natural resources than
>> hiking, and far less than many other recreational activities.

>
>
> Thanks, but I get all of that. I was responding to Vandeman's assertion
> that there is no way for there to be 50M mountain bikes. He asserts that
> Shimano is not in a position to know this sort of stuff.


Right, I have him kill-filed, but I see now that he changed what Shimano
actually said, into "50 million Americans mountain bike," from ""50
million Americans ride a mountain bike."

Perhaps there should be some sort of an agreement, where Vandeman agrees
to stop lying about mountain biking, and mountain bikers agree to stop
telling the truth about Vandeman.
 
"SMS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Jeff Strickland wrote:
>>
>> "SMS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Jeff Strickland wrote:
>>>
>>>> Shimano probably knows how many gearsets it sells, and where they are
>>>> consumed. I suspect the 50M number is a bit high too, but I don't make
>>>> and sell gearsets, so I don't really know. But, I am not calling them
>>>> liars, you are. And when you call somebody a liar, that's a bit like
>>>> the pot calling the kettle black, ergo I'm right. Again.
>>>
>>> Shimano never stated that 50 million Americans mountain bike. What they
>>> said was "50 million Americans ride a mountain bike." What they didn't
>>> say was that many of those mountain bikes are not ridden off-road, and
>>> that in fact many could not be ridden off road for very long before
>>> falling apart, being of the Target/Wal-Mart variety.
>>>
>>> "http://bike.shimano.com/publish/content/cycle/sac/us/en/news_and_information/news0/shimano_and_imba_release.html"
>>>
>>> It's a good cause that Shimano's become involved in since scientific
>>> research has shown mountain biking to be a low impact environmentally
>>> sustainable activity with no more impact on natural resources than
>>> hiking, and far less than many other recreational activities.

>>
>>
>> Thanks, but I get all of that. I was responding to Vandeman's assertion
>> that there is no way for there to be 50M mountain bikes. He asserts that
>> Shimano is not in a position to know this sort of stuff.

>
> Right, I have him kill-filed, but I see now that he changed what Shimano
> actually said, into "50 million Americans mountain bike," from ""50
> million Americans ride a mountain bike."
>
> Perhaps there should be some sort of an agreement, where Vandeman agrees
> to stop lying about mountain biking, and mountain bikers agree to stop
> telling the truth about Vandeman.



I would never agree to stop telling the truth, and I'm sure Vandeman is
committed to lying right up until the moment he takes his last breath.

Nice plan though ... ;-)
 
On Apr 11, 8:18 pm, "Jeff Strickland" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "SMS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> > Jeff Strickland wrote:

>
> >> "SMS" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >>news:[email protected]...
> >>> Jeff Strickland wrote:

>
> >>>> Shimano probably knows how many gearsets it sells, and where they are
> >>>> consumed. I suspect the 50M number is a bit high too, but I don't make
> >>>> and sell gearsets, so I don't really know. But, I am not calling them
> >>>> liars, you are. And when you call somebody a liar, that's a bit like
> >>>> the pot calling the kettle black, ergo I'm right. Again.

>
> >>> Shimano never stated that 50 million Americans mountain bike. What they
> >>> said was "50 million Americans ride a mountain bike." What they didn't
> >>> say was that many of those mountain bikes are not ridden off-road, and
> >>> that in fact many could not be ridden off road for very long before
> >>> falling apart, being of the Target/Wal-Mart variety.

>
> >>> "http://bike.shimano.com/publish/content/cycle/sac/us/en/news_and_info..."

>
> >>> It's a good cause that Shimano's become involved in since scientific
> >>> research has shown mountain biking to be a low impact environmentally
> >>> sustainable activity with no more impact on natural resources than
> >>> hiking, and far less than many other recreational activities.

>
> >> Thanks, but I get all of that. I was responding to Vandeman's assertion
> >> that there is no way for there to be 50M mountain bikes. He asserts that
> >> Shimano is not in a position to know this sort of stuff.

>
> > Right, I have him kill-filed, but I see now that he changed what Shimano
> > actually said, into "50 million Americans mountain bike," from ""50
> > million Americans ride a mountain bike."

>
> > Perhaps there should be some sort of an agreement, where Vandeman agrees
> > to stop lying about mountain biking, and mountain bikers agree to stop
> > telling the truth about Vandeman.

>
> I would never agree to stop telling the truth, and I'm sure Vandeman is
> committed to lying right up until the moment he takes his last breath.
>
> Nice plan though ... ;-)


Haven't seen any of his anti-mtb spam in at least 2 days, maybe that
last breath was already drawn
 
On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 05:26:20 -0700, SMS <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Jeff Strickland wrote:
>
>> Shimano probably knows how many gearsets it sells, and where they are
>> consumed. I suspect the 50M number is a bit high too, but I don't make
>> and sell gearsets, so I don't really know. But, I am not calling them
>> liars, you are. And when you call somebody a liar, that's a bit like the
>> pot calling the kettle black, ergo I'm right. Again.

>
>Shimano never stated that 50 million Americans mountain bike. What they
>said was "50 million Americans ride a mountain bike."


LIAR:

“We want legislators, policy makers and the public to understand how
significant mountain biking is to both the economy and to keeping
people healthy,” said Kozo Shimano, senior executive at Shimano. And
he points out that 50 million Americans mountain bike, compared with
the 33 million that golf.

What they didn't
>say was that many of those mountain bikes are not ridden off-road, and
>that in fact many could not be ridden off road for very long before
>falling apart, being of the Target/Wal-Mart variety.
>
>"http://bike.shimano.com/publish/content/cycle/sac/us/en/news_and_information/news0/shimano_and_imba_release.html"
>
>It's a good cause that Shimano's become involved in since scientific
>research has shown mountain biking to be a low impact environmentally
>sustainable activity with no more impact on natural resources than
>hiking, and far less than many other recreational activities.

--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 05:26:20 -0700, SMS <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>Jeff Strickland wrote:
>>
>>> Shimano probably knows how many gearsets it sells, and where they are
>>> consumed. I suspect the 50M number is a bit high too, but I don't make
>>> and sell gearsets, so I don't really know. But, I am not calling them
>>> liars, you are. And when you call somebody a liar, that's a bit like the
>>> pot calling the kettle black, ergo I'm right. Again.

>>
>>Shimano never stated that 50 million Americans mountain bike. What they
>>said was "50 million Americans ride a mountain bike."

>
> LIAR:



Idiot


>
> "We want legislators, policy makers and the public to understand how
> significant mountain biking is to both the economy and to keeping
> people healthy," said Kozo Shimano, senior executive at Shimano. And
> he points out that 50 million Americans mountain bike, compared with
> the 33 million that golf.
>
> What they didn't
>>say was that many of those mountain bikes are not ridden off-road, and
>>that in fact many could not be ridden off road for very long before
>>falling apart, being of the Target/Wal-Mart variety.
>>
>>"http://bike.shimano.com/publish/content/cycle/sac/us/en/news_and_information/news0/shimano_and_imba_release.html"
>>
>>It's a good cause that Shimano's become involved in since scientific
>>research has shown mountain biking to be a low impact environmentally
>>sustainable activity with no more impact on natural resources than
>>hiking, and far less than many other recreational activities.

> --
> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
> humans ("pure habitat").



What's the point ?? How do you work on it if it is off limits to humans ??


> Want to help?


NO !


(I spent the previous 8
> years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)



How'd that work out for ya ???


>
> Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are
> fond of!
>
> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 05:26:20 -0700, SMS <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>Jeff Strickland wrote:
>>
>>> Shimano probably knows how many gearsets it sells, and where they are
>>> consumed. I suspect the 50M number is a bit high too, but I don't make
>>> and sell gearsets, so I don't really know. But, I am not calling them
>>> liars, you are. And when you call somebody a liar, that's a bit like the
>>> pot calling the kettle black, ergo I'm right. Again.

>>
>>Shimano never stated that 50 million Americans mountain bike. What they
>>said was "50 million Americans ride a mountain bike."

>
> LIAR:
>
> "We want legislators, policy makers and the public to understand how
> significant mountain biking is to both the economy and to keeping
> people healthy," said Kozo Shimano, senior executive at Shimano. And
> he points out that 50 million Americans mountain bike, compared with
> the 33 million that golf.
>



You are an idiot of the highest order. Well, the idiot of the very highest
order is the guy that bestowed you with a PhD, but I digress.

Shimano has no way to know that all of the mountain bikes that are built
with its gear sets ever get used on a trail. Indeed, there at least a dozen
mountain bikes in my extended family that never ever get on dirt except for
where the grass is not growing on the atheletic field at the school they
attend.

Justy because a gear set is built and installed on a mountain bike 50
million times does not mean that there are 50 million mountain bikes plying
the trails of America. Indeed, there is strong evidence that thet majority
of them are sold at WalMart and have no capacity to actually leave the
sidewalk, where YOU assert they belong in the first place.

Idiot.
 
On Wed, 16 Apr 2008 16:06:11 GMT, "Jeff Strickland"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 05:26:20 -0700, SMS <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Jeff Strickland wrote:
>>>
>>>> Shimano probably knows how many gearsets it sells, and where they are
>>>> consumed. I suspect the 50M number is a bit high too, but I don't make
>>>> and sell gearsets, so I don't really know. But, I am not calling them
>>>> liars, you are. And when you call somebody a liar, that's a bit like the
>>>> pot calling the kettle black, ergo I'm right. Again.
>>>
>>>Shimano never stated that 50 million Americans mountain bike. What they
>>>said was "50 million Americans ride a mountain bike."

>>
>> LIAR:
>>
>> "We want legislators, policy makers and the public to understand how
>> significant mountain biking is to both the economy and to keeping
>> people healthy," said Kozo Shimano, senior executive at Shimano. And
>> he points out that 50 million Americans mountain bike, compared with
>> the 33 million that golf.
>>

>
>
>You are an idiot of the highest order. Well, the idiot of the very highest
>order is the guy that bestowed you with a PhD, but I digress.
>
>Shimano has no way to know that all of the mountain bikes that are built
>with its gear sets ever get used on a trail.


Exactly! Which why that is a LIE. DUHHHHH! You are amazing(ly dumb)!

Indeed, there at least a dozen
>mountain bikes in my extended family that never ever get on dirt except for
>where the grass is not growing on the atheletic field at the school they
>attend.
>
>Justy because a gear set is built and installed on a mountain bike 50
>million times does not mean that there are 50 million mountain bikes plying
>the trails of America. Indeed, there is strong evidence that thet majority
>of them are sold at WalMart and have no capacity to actually leave the
>sidewalk, where YOU assert they belong in the first place.
>
>Idiot.
>
>
>

--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 

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