Re: Speed-record double-reduction jack-shafts



D

DirtRoadie

Guest
On Jan 26, 6:52 pm, [email protected] wrote:
> Decades of land-speed record seekers used big chain rings because they
> didn't know that double-reduction high-speed gearing had been patented
> (repeatedly) before the turn of the century. If they'd had the Google
> patent search, they might have saved some money instead of buying
> manhole-covers with teeth.
>
> Application filed 1891:
> http://www.google.com/patents?id=VGw_AAAAEBAJ&pg=PP1&dq=472796#PPP1,M1


Working the other direction, this more modern application
beneficially incorporates the concept to accomplish somewhat different
purposes:
http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT5810379

DR
 
D

Dave Reckoning

Guest
"DirtRoadie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]m...
On Jan 26, 6:52 pm, [email protected] wrote:
> Decades of land-speed record seekers used big chain rings because they
> didn't know that double-reduction high-speed gearing had been patented
> (repeatedly) before the turn of the century. If they'd had the Google
> patent search, they might have saved some money instead of buying
> manhole-covers with teeth.
>
> Application filed 1891:
> http://www.google.com/patents?id=VGw_AAAAEBAJ&pg=PP1&dq=472796#PPP1,M1


>Working the other direction, this more modern application
>beneficially incorporates the concept to accomplish somewhat different
>purposes:
>http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT5810379


>DR



Would not internally geared bottom brackets be a more simple solution?

http://tinyurl.com/3af2to

Dave
 
T

Tom Sherman

Guest
Dave Reckoning wrote:
> "DirtRoadie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]m...
> On Jan 26, 6:52 pm, [email protected] wrote:
>> Decades of land-speed record seekers used big chain rings because they
>> didn't know that double-reduction high-speed gearing had been patented
>> (repeatedly) before the turn of the century. If they'd had the Google
>> patent search, they might have saved some money instead of buying
>> manhole-covers with teeth.
>>
>> Application filed 1891:
>> http://www.google.com/patents?id=VGw_AAAAEBAJ&pg=PP1&dq=472796#PPP1,M1

>
>> Working the other direction, this more modern application
>> beneficially incorporates the concept to accomplish somewhat different
>> purposes:
>> http://www.google.com/patents?vid=USPAT5810379

>
>> DR

>
>
> Would not internally geared bottom brackets be a more simple solution?
>
> http://tinyurl.com/3af2to
>

Florian Schlumpf thinks so: <http://www.schlumpf.ch/schlumpf_engl.htm>
(click on the "Bicycle Transmissions" tab.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth
 
On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 14:10:21 -0500, Luke <[email protected]>
wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>> Dear Dave & Andrew,
>>
>> You don't even have to buy it any more, and the online text is crudely
>> searchable (better if downloaded):
>>
>>
>> http://books.google.com/books?id=gFMN3-srupsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=inauthor:
>> archibald+inauthor:sharp&as_brr=1&ei=qK8vR5ezL4GktAPMvqiwCQ

>
>Is the book, i.e., text, available in ebook form that can be downloaded
>free of charge? If so where?


Dear Luke,

You can download the PDF. The link is on the upper right of that page:

http://books.google.com/books?id=gF...thor:sharp&as_brr=1&ei=qK8vR5ezL4GktAPMvqiwCQ

Cheers,

Carl Fogel
 
L

Luke

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
<[email protected]> wrote:

> On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 14:10:21 -0500, Luke <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >In article <[email protected]>,
> ><[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Dear Dave & Andrew,
> >>
> >> You don't even have to buy it any more, and the online text is crudely
> >> searchable (better if downloaded):
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=gFMN3-srupsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=inauth
> >> or:
> >> archibald+inauthor:sharp&as_brr=1&ei=qK8vR5ezL4GktAPMvqiwCQ

> >
> >Is the book, i.e., text, available in ebook form that can be downloaded
> >free of charge? If so where?

>
> Dear Luke,
>
> You can download the PDF. The link is on the upper right of that page:
>
>
> http://books.google.com/books?id=gFMN3-srupsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=inauthor:
> archibald+inauthor:sharp&as_brr=1&ei=qK8vR5ezL4GktAPMvqiwCQ
>


Am I the only one that sees no link? In the upper right are links to
buy or borrow the book, no downloads available. I've poked about,
scanning the 'Limited Preview' (many pages deliberately omitted), but
can go no further. (Browsers --> Safari, Firefox)

Carl would you please paste a link to the actual download?
 
K

Kerry Montgomery

Guest
"Luke" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:290120081811305831%[email protected]
> In article <[email protected]>,
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 14:10:21 -0500, Luke <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >In article <[email protected]>,
>> ><[email protected]> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> Dear Dave & Andrew,
>> >>
>> >> You don't even have to buy it any more, and the online text is crudely
>> >> searchable (better if downloaded):
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> http://books.google.com/books?id=gFMN3-srupsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=inauth
>> >> or:
>> >> archibald+inauthor:sharp&as_brr=1&ei=qK8vR5ezL4GktAPMvqiwCQ
>> >
>> >Is the book, i.e., text, available in ebook form that can be downloaded
>> >free of charge? If so where?

>>
>> Dear Luke,
>>
>> You can download the PDF. The link is on the upper right of that page:
>>
>>
>> http://books.google.com/books?id=gFMN3-srupsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=inauthor:
>> archibald+inauthor:sharp&as_brr=1&ei=qK8vR5ezL4GktAPMvqiwCQ
>>

>
> Am I the only one that sees no link? In the upper right are links to
> buy or borrow the book, no downloads available. I've poked about,
> scanning the 'Limited Preview' (many pages deliberately omitted), but
> can go no further. (Browsers --> Safari, Firefox)
>
> Carl would you please paste a link to the actual download?


Hi Luke,
Using Internet Explorer 6.0 I see the link in the top right corner of the
page, as Carl described. The left 2/3 of the screen shows the first page of
the book, the right 1/3 has a number of options like these (in order from
the top of the screen down):
Download PDF - 12.9M
View plain text
About this book
Write review
Add to my library
Contents
Popular passages
Buy this book
etc.
When I click the word Download, I get a File Download box asking if I want
to open or save this 13.2 MB Adobe Acrobat 7.0 document. As a result, I
don't know how to post a link to the actual download.
Kerry
 
L

Luke

Guest
On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 15:33:43 -0800, "Kerry Montgomery"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>>> >Is the book, i.e., text, available in ebook form that can be downloaded
>>> >free of charge? If so where?
>>>
>>> Dear Luke,
>>>
>>> You can download the PDF. The link is on the upper right of that page:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://books.google.com/books?id=gFMN3-srupsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=inauthor:
>>> archibald+inauthor:sharp&as_brr=1&ei=qK8vR5ezL4GktAPMvqiwCQ
>>>

>>
>> Am I the only one that sees no link? In the upper right are links to
>> buy or borrow the book, no downloads available. I've poked about,
>> scanning the 'Limited Preview' (many pages deliberately omitted), but
>> can go no further. (Browsers --> Safari, Firefox)
>>
>> Carl would you please paste a link to the actual download?

>
>Hi Luke,
>Using Internet Explorer 6.0 I see the link in the top right corner of the
>page, as Carl described. The left 2/3 of the screen shows the first page of
>the book, the right 1/3 has a number of options like these (in order from
>the top of the screen down):
>Download PDF - 12.9M
>View plain text
>About this book
>Write review
>Add to my library
>Contents
>Popular passages
>Buy this book
>etc.
>When I click the word Download, I get a File Download box asking if I want
>to open or save this 13.2 MB Adobe Acrobat 7.0 document. As a result, I
>don't know how to post a link to the actual download.
>Kerry
>


Curiouser and curiouser! I booted into XP and am accessing the URL
with Internet Explorer 7.0.6.***,etc. The page loads exactly as
you've described it with this difference: the options 'Download PDF'
and 'View Plain Text' are not available.

I wonder if my being in Canada excludes me from those services; does
Google sniff for the source of a http data request? Any Canucks able
to see the 'Download' and 'View' options?
 
On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 20:11:09 -0500, Luke <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On Tue, 29 Jan 2008 15:33:43 -0800, "Kerry Montgomery"
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>
>>>> >Is the book, i.e., text, available in ebook form that can be downloaded
>>>> >free of charge? If so where?
>>>>
>>>> Dear Luke,
>>>>
>>>> You can download the PDF. The link is on the upper right of that page:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://books.google.com/books?id=gFMN3-srupsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=inauthor:
>>>> archibald+inauthor:sharp&as_brr=1&ei=qK8vR5ezL4GktAPMvqiwCQ
>>>>
>>>
>>> Am I the only one that sees no link? In the upper right are links to
>>> buy or borrow the book, no downloads available. I've poked about,
>>> scanning the 'Limited Preview' (many pages deliberately omitted), but
>>> can go no further. (Browsers --> Safari, Firefox)
>>>
>>> Carl would you please paste a link to the actual download?

>>
>>Hi Luke,
>>Using Internet Explorer 6.0 I see the link in the top right corner of the
>>page, as Carl described. The left 2/3 of the screen shows the first page of
>>the book, the right 1/3 has a number of options like these (in order from
>>the top of the screen down):
>>Download PDF - 12.9M
>>View plain text
>>About this book
>>Write review
>>Add to my library
>>Contents
>>Popular passages
>>Buy this book
>>etc.
>>When I click the word Download, I get a File Download box asking if I want
>>to open or save this 13.2 MB Adobe Acrobat 7.0 document. As a result, I
>>don't know how to post a link to the actual download.
>>Kerry
>>

>
>Curiouser and curiouser! I booted into XP and am accessing the URL
>with Internet Explorer 7.0.6.***,etc. The page loads exactly as
>you've described it with this difference: the options 'Download PDF'
>and 'View Plain Text' are not available.
>
>I wonder if my being in Canada excludes me from those services; does
>Google sniff for the source of a http data request? Any Canucks able
>to see the 'Download' and 'View' options?


Dear Luke,

In a previous thread, Google Books didn't seem to work at all for
Brian Huntley in Canada:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/824ba794487ae43a

I don't know whether Google Books discriminates against Candadians or
Canada somehow cuts Google Books off.

Used copies are going for about $18 with shipping, US, on
www.bookfinder.com.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel
 
A

A Muzi

Guest
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> You don't even have to buy it any more, and the online text is crudely
>>>> searchable (better if downloaded):
>>>> http://books.google.com/books?id=gFMN3-srupsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=inauth
>>>> or:
>>>> archibald+inauthor:sharp&as_brr=1&ei=qK8vR5ezL4GktAPMvqiwCQ


>> Luke <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> Is the book, i.e., text, available in ebook form that can be downloaded
>>> free of charge? If so where?


> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> You can download the PDF. The link is on the upper right of that page:
>> http://books.google.com/books?id=gFMN3-srupsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=inauthor:
>> archibald+inauthor:sharp&as_brr=1&ei=qK8vR5ezL4GktAPMvqiwCQ


Luke wrote:
> Am I the only one that sees no link? In the upper right are links to
> buy or borrow the book, no downloads available. I've poked about,
> scanning the 'Limited Preview' (many pages deliberately omitted), but
> can go no further. (Browsers --> Safari, Firefox)
> Carl would you please paste a link to the actual download?


Alternately, used books are dirt cheap. I gave all my staff copies
purchased online a couple years ago for between $7 and $18 a copy.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
 
On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 10:36:37 GMT, Ryan Cousineau <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I think that while this exception is interesting, Carl's broad assertion
>("about the only vehicle...") holds up, and that his explanation is
>reasonable. I don't think the handcar offers a way forward for HPV
>drivetrains.


Dear Ryan,

Actually, it was Andrew Muzi who said that in this thread, not me.

Jobst has pointed it out, too, as he mentions in this thread.

I agree with them. Most vehicles are powered by engines, few of which
work as slowly as legs and arms, so they gear down.

Engines aren't included in bicycles or railroad handcars, so they gear
up to suit their powerplants.

Trials riding offers a good example. The crank of a bicycle bumping
over obstacles is turning at RPM that you can count on your fingers,
while the motorcycle engine is idling at RPM higher than a bicycle
sprinter.

Same thing with boats. The long arm of an oar is gearing up in the
sense that it trades force for distance--the paddle moves further
through the water than the hand holding the other end. Boat
propellers, on the other hand, are geared down to turn at lower RPM
than the engines frantically powering them.

Even airplane engines can be considered as gearing down. Prop RPM is
usually slower than engine RPM, with the engine speed typically being
held constant while the variable-pitch blade functions as the
equivalent of a CVT.

The Gossamer Condor is a curious exception. The rider pedaled at 110
RPM for takeoff and 98 RPM for level flight, with the prop turning at
about 120 RPM. But the butterfly-slow aircraft was really just a
slow-motion 10-foot elevator. Almost all the rider's effort was going
into maintaining the pressure difference between the top and bottom of
the huge wing to keep his own weight plus the aircraft up off the
ground.

In other words, a rider in a human-powered aircraft can't use normal
high bicycle gearing to trade force for distance. He's really pedaling
his guts out to raise himself a few feet up, not forward.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel
 
A

Andrew Price

Guest
On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 12:16:29 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

[---]

>But the butterfly-slow aircraft was really just a
>slow-motion 10-foot elevator. Almost all the rider's effort was going
>into maintaining the pressure difference between the top and bottom of
>the huge wing to keep his own weight plus the aircraft up off the
>ground.


Ah then, my good man, what you need is this:

<[email protected]>

"Only motor I'd trust to air-start like that, he thought as he
pressured the control bar and brought the trike level scant feet above
the rocky valley floor. No reason not to trust it of course. Jute had
licensed the cylinder and head design to Rotax after working it up
himself during a slow week. And all because he wondered whether his
ancient Fortran gas flow simulator would run on the old Apple IIE,
serial #000003 that had come to him many years ago with a personal
note from Steve Jobs. The simulator worked a treat, considering he'd
last used it as a teenage design genius licensing hemi heads to
Chrysler."
 
T

Tom Sherman

Guest
[email protected] aka Carl Fogel wrote:
> ...
> Even airplane engines can be considered as gearing down. Prop RPM is
> usually slower than engine RPM, with the engine speed typically being
> held constant while the variable-pitch blade functions as the
> equivalent of a CVT....
>

Mr. Fogel should be aware that geared piston engine aircraft are very
rare. Turboprop aircraft, of course, have geared engines, but their
numbers are much smaller than their Otto cycle powered brethren.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth
 
R

Ryan Cousineau

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
Andrew Price <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 12:16:29 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>
> [---]
>
> >But the butterfly-slow aircraft was really just a
> >slow-motion 10-foot elevator. Almost all the rider's effort was going
> >into maintaining the pressure difference between the top and bottom of
> >the huge wing to keep his own weight plus the aircraft up off the
> >ground.

>
> Ah then, my good man, what you need is this:
>
> <[email protected]>
>
> "Only motor I'd trust to air-start like that, he thought as he
> pressured the control bar and brought the trike level scant feet above
> the rocky valley floor. No reason not to trust it of course. Jute had
> licensed the cylinder and head design to Rotax after working it up
> himself during a slow week. And all because he wondered whether his
> ancient Fortran gas flow simulator would run on the old Apple IIE,
> serial #000003 that had come to him many years ago with a personal
> note from Steve Jobs. The simulator worked a treat, considering he'd
> last used it as a teenage design genius licensing hemi heads to
> Chrysler."


What a man!

--
Ryan Cousineau [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."
 
R

Ryan Cousineau

Guest
In article <[email protected]>,
Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:

> [email protected] aka Carl Fogel wrote:
> > ...
> > Even airplane engines can be considered as gearing down. Prop RPM is
> > usually slower than engine RPM, with the engine speed typically being
> > held constant while the variable-pitch blade functions as the
> > equivalent of a CVT....
> >

> Mr. Fogel should be aware that geared piston engine aircraft are very
> rare. Turboprop aircraft, of course, have geared engines, but their
> numbers are much smaller than their Otto cycle powered brethren.


Well...I'd point out that the mass of fixed-blade piston planes are
largely small and light, and most importantly, inexpensive. The
turboprop predominates in commercial prop planes, a lovely byproduct of
the jet age.

However, before the rise of the turboprop, variable pitch props were a
standard part of any performance-oriented plane.

Moreover, turbine engines are the extreme example of Carl's thesis. They
spin at 5-6 figure RPMs, have enormous reduction gearing, and work best
with engine speed kept in a narrow range and varied as little as
possible (in other words, they benefit from variable-pitch props).

Let us not lose sight of the question we were trying to answer: the
reason bicycle drivetrains are so exceptionally different from all other
drivetrains is because humans are an exceptionally different power
source from most other portable power sources used by humans (which
pretty much amounts to turbines, piston engines, and electric motors.
There's a few others, but I'm willing to lump rotaries and other rare
powerplants into the "weird exception" categories.

I'd pop cable cars and linear-induction motors into the weird category,

--
Ryan Cousineau [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."
 
K

Kerry Montgomery

Guest
"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> [email protected] aka Carl Fogel wrote:
>> ...
>> Even airplane engines can be considered as gearing down. Prop RPM is
>> usually slower than engine RPM, with the engine speed typically being
>> held constant while the variable-pitch blade functions as the
>> equivalent of a CVT....
> >

> Mr. Fogel should be aware that geared piston engine aircraft are very
> rare. Turboprop aircraft, of course, have geared engines, but their
> numbers are much smaller than their Otto cycle powered brethren.
>
> --


Tom,
Aircraft powered by automotive-based engines (Subaru, Mazda rotary) are
often (maybe always?) geared.
Kerry
 
On Wed, 30 Jan 2008 20:48:28 -0800, "Kerry Montgomery"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]
>> [email protected] aka Carl Fogel wrote:
>>> ...
>>> Even airplane engines can be considered as gearing down. Prop RPM is
>>> usually slower than engine RPM, with the engine speed typically being
>>> held constant while the variable-pitch blade functions as the
>>> equivalent of a CVT....
>> >

>> Mr. Fogel should be aware that geared piston engine aircraft are very
>> rare. Turboprop aircraft, of course, have geared engines, but their
>> numbers are much smaller than their Otto cycle powered brethren.
>>
>> --

>
>Tom,
>Aircraft powered by automotive-based engines (Subaru, Mazda rotary) are
>often (maybe always?) geared.
>Kerry


Dear Kerry,

As an aside, the low-rpm air-cooled radial engines popular in early
aeronautical history were an exception to the rule that most vehicles
gear the engine down.

Radials (not to be confused with rotaries) usually used no gearing
reduction and were popular because they were light, simple, and
rugged.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel
 
T

Tom Sherman

Guest
Ryan Cousineau wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Tom Sherman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> [email protected] aka Carl Fogel wrote:
>>> ...
>>> Even airplane engines can be considered as gearing down. Prop RPM is
>>> usually slower than engine RPM, with the engine speed typically being
>>> held constant while the variable-pitch blade functions as the
>>> equivalent of a CVT....
>> >

>> Mr. Fogel should be aware that geared piston engine aircraft are very
>> rare. Turboprop aircraft, of course, have geared engines, but their
>> numbers are much smaller than their Otto cycle powered brethren.

>
> Well...I'd point out that the mass of fixed-blade piston planes are
> largely small and light, and most importantly, inexpensive. The
> turboprop predominates in commercial prop planes, a lovely byproduct of
> the jet age.
>
> However, before the rise of the turboprop, variable pitch props were a
> standard part of any performance-oriented plane.
>

However, variable pitch (aka constant speed) props on light aircraft
with Otto cycle engines are in most cases are still connected directly
to the crankshaft with no intermediate gearing; which as I said before,
geared reduction between the propeller and engine is quite rare. The
pilot varies propeller speed by the propeller pitch control and manifold
pressure (and therefore power) with the throttle.

The only single engine piston commercial light aircraft with a geared
engine that comes to mind is the relatively rare Cessna 175 [1]. The
twin engined Cessna 421 also had geared Otto cycle engines, but was
never built in large numbers. There are others, but they are not common.

Therefore, Mr. Fogel's contention that propeller driven aircraft
"usually" have propellers that turn slower than engine speed is
incorrect, since turboprop and geared piston engine aircraft are only a
minority fraction of total propeller driven aircraft production.

[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessna_175#The_GO-300_engine>.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth
 
T

Tom Sherman

Guest
Kerry Montgomery wrote:
> "Tom Sherman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>> [email protected] aka Carl Fogel wrote:
>>> ...
>>> Even airplane engines can be considered as gearing down. Prop RPM is
>>> usually slower than engine RPM, with the engine speed typically being
>>> held constant while the variable-pitch blade functions as the
>>> equivalent of a CVT....
>>>

>> Mr. Fogel should be aware that geared piston engine aircraft are very
>> rare. Turboprop aircraft, of course, have geared engines, but their
>> numbers are much smaller than their Otto cycle powered brethren.
>>
>> --

>
> Tom,
> Aircraft powered by automotive-based engines (Subaru, Mazda rotary) are
> often (maybe always?) geared.
>

What are the total numbers of these aircraft, and how do they compare to
the several hundred thousand non-geared, piston engine aircraft produced
by Cessna, Piper, Beechcraft and others over the years (most prior to
the mid 1980's)?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"And never forget, life ultimately makes failures of all people."
- A. Derleth