Re: spokes keep loosening



Dave wrote:
> I thought of putting loctite on them or something, is this a good idea or
> what is please seriously.


1. make sure spoke tension is correct. chances are, this will fix your
problem.
2. make sure the wheel is fully pre-stressed to prevent any further
bedding in of spokes in use. that will lead to further spoke loosening.
3. if the above fail, yes, it's ok to consider loctite, but get the
correct grade. it has to wick and not seize the nipples completely.
both d.t. and sapim sell a special grade loctite for this exact purpose.

> Dave
> "Michael Press" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> In article
>> <[email protected]>,
>> "Dave" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> My spokes keep loosening, is their anything I can do? Thanks
>>> dave

>> Keep tightening them or your wheel will fall off.
>>
>> --
>> Michael Press
>>

>
>
 
Thanks Jim I'll give it a shot. I had the wheel worked on at a lbs- he said
he put spoke prep on the nipples when he loosened everything and re
tensioned them prior to this happening I'm wondering if that is causing
them to come loose so easily.
Dave

"jim beam" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Dave wrote:
>> I thought of putting loctite on them or something, is this a good idea or
>> what is please seriously.

>
> 1. make sure spoke tension is correct. chances are, this will fix your
> problem.
> 2. make sure the wheel is fully pre-stressed to prevent any further
> bedding in of spokes in use. that will lead to further spoke loosening.
> 3. if the above fail, yes, it's ok to consider loctite, but get the
> correct grade. it has to wick and not seize the nipples completely. both
> d.t. and sapim sell a special grade loctite for this exact purpose.
>
>> Dave
>> "Michael Press" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> In article
>>> <[email protected]>,
>>> "Dave" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> My spokes keep loosening, is their anything I can do? Thanks
>>>> dave
>>> Keep tightening them or your wheel will fall off.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Michael Press
>>>

>>
 
Dave wrote:
> Thanks Jim I'll give it a shot. I had the wheel worked on at a lbs- he said
> he put spoke prep on the nipples when he loosened everything and re
> tensioned them prior to this happening I'm wondering if that is causing
> them to come loose so easily.
> Dave


not all bike shops are good at wheel building. in fact, very few are.
have them show you the spoke tension with a tensiometer. if they don't
have one, smile, take your bike and leave. if they do, note the tension
and compare it to manufacturer spec. there's data in the archive here
on that. also make sure spoke tension is as even as possible
spoke-to-spoke.


>
> "jim beam" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Dave wrote:
>>> I thought of putting loctite on them or something, is this a good idea or
>>> what is please seriously.

>> 1. make sure spoke tension is correct. chances are, this will fix your
>> problem.
>> 2. make sure the wheel is fully pre-stressed to prevent any further
>> bedding in of spokes in use. that will lead to further spoke loosening.
>> 3. if the above fail, yes, it's ok to consider loctite, but get the
>> correct grade. it has to wick and not seize the nipples completely. both
>> d.t. and sapim sell a special grade loctite for this exact purpose.
>>
>>> Dave
>>> "Michael Press" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> In article
>>>> <[email protected]>,
>>>> "Dave" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> My spokes keep loosening, is their anything I can do? Thanks
>>>>> dave
>>>> Keep tightening them or your wheel will fall off.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Michael Press
>>>>

>
 
> >>>>> My spokes keep loosening, is their anything I can do? Thanks
> >>>>> dave


maybe the wrong size nipples are matched with the spokes
 
jim beam wrote:
> Dave wrote:
>
>> I thought of putting loctite on them or something, is this a good idea
>> or what is please seriously.

>
>
> 1. make sure spoke tension is correct. chances are, this will fix your
> problem.
> 2. make sure the wheel is fully pre-stressed to prevent any further
> bedding in of spokes in use. that will lead to further spoke loosening.
> 3. if the above fail, yes, it's ok to consider loctite, but get the
> correct grade. it has to wick and not seize the nipples completely.
> both d.t. and sapim sell a special grade loctite for this exact purpose.


4. (or should it be #0?) Make sure the rim isn't failing with bulges
around the spoke holes. With a failing rim, there's no way you can get
suitable tension, and no way to keep the spokes from loosening.

Hopefully this isn't the problem, but if it is, #1-3 are irrelevant.

Mark "Been there, done that with an MA-3" J.
 
Mark wrote:
> jim beam wrote:
>> Dave wrote:
>>
>>> I thought of putting loctite on them or something, is this a good
>>> idea or what is please seriously.

>>
>>
>> 1. make sure spoke tension is correct. chances are, this will fix
>> your problem.
>> 2. make sure the wheel is fully pre-stressed to prevent any further
>> bedding in of spokes in use. that will lead to further spoke loosening.
>> 3. if the above fail, yes, it's ok to consider loctite, but get the
>> correct grade. it has to wick and not seize the nipples completely.
>> both d.t. and sapim sell a special grade loctite for this exact purpose.

>
> 4. (or should it be #0?) Make sure the rim isn't failing with bulges
> around the spoke holes.


true, but #1 negates that. bulges are a symptom of over-tension.

> With a failing rim, there's no way you can get
> suitable tension, and no way to keep the spokes from loosening.
>
> Hopefully this isn't the problem, but if it is, #1-3 are irrelevant.
>
> Mark "Been there, done that with an MA-3" J.
>
 
Dave wrote:
> I thought of putting loctite on them or something, is this a good idea or
> what is please seriously.
> Dave
> "Michael Press" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > In article
> > <[email protected]>,
> > "Dave" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> My spokes keep loosening, is their anything I can do? Thanks
> >> dave

> >
> > Keep tightening them or your wheel will fall off.
> >
> > --
> > Michael Press
> >


Tesnion is not correct, either thru building error or because the rim
has become 'deformed' thru riding. Getting the tenion right even if it
means a not round rim(cuz it ain't round anymore), will prevent spoke
loosening
 
Dave wrote:
> I thought of putting loctite on them or something, is this a good idea or
> what is please seriously.
> Dave
> "Michael Press" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > In article
> > <[email protected]>,
> > "Dave" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> My spokes keep loosening, is their anything I can do? Thanks
> >> dave

> >
> > Keep tightening them or your wheel will fall off.
> >
> > --
> > Michael Press
> >


Tension is not correct, either thru building error or because the rim
has become 'deformed' thru riding. Getting the tenion right even if it
means a not round rim(cuz it ain't round anymore), will prevent spoke
loosening
 
Dave who? writes:

> My spokes keep loosening, is their anything I can do?


> I thought of putting Loctite on them or something, is this a good
> idea or what is please seriously.


You didn't say how many spokes this wheel has and how much you weigh.
This information would make more apparent what the problem might be.

The only way spokes can loosen is that, under load, spokes pointing
straight down to the road become slack from overload. After all "the
wheel stands on the spokes at the bottom of the wheel", structurally
speaking. When slack spoke nipples can unscrew, while the wheel is
close to collapse against even light side loads. Most wheels seldom
experience side loads so they generally don't fail that way.

In any case, your spokes are not tight enough to carry the load borne
by the few spokes in the load affected (road contact) zone. Loctite
is not the answer, although it and similar glues have been used for
wheels that experience rattling loose spokes, a problem with many
machine built wheels (SpokePrep).

The spokes need to be tighter and possibly more of them to stay tight
and true.

Please fill in the missing information.

Jobst Brandt
 
jim beam wrote:
> Dave wrote:

snip..
>
> not all bike shops are good at wheel building. in fact, very few are.
> have them show you the spoke tension with a tensiometer. if they don't
> have one, smile, take your bike and leave.


Cue Crusty Old Guy Voice...
Tensionometer? Back in the day we didn't need no fancy tools like
tensionometers! All WE needed was a crescent wrench and an old frame to
stick the wheel in!

grin

Lack of a tensionometer does not meant they don't know what they are
doing, nor does its presence imply that they do. (personally I look
askance on anyone using spoke prep)

All that being said I agree the tension is wrong..



>snip
 
[email protected] wrote:

> The spokes need to be tighter and possibly more of them to stay tight
> and true.


Well, and the rim needs to be round. If it's not and you try to
compensate for it with lower tension on the spokes at that point, the
spokes at the flat spot may eventually go loose. Loctite at this point
may be better than buying a new rim or wheel, or whacking on the rim
with wood blocks trying to get the flat spot back out.
 
In article
<[email protected]>,
"Dave" <[email protected]> wrote:

> I thought of putting loctite on them or something, is this a good idea or
> what is please seriously.
> Dave
> "Michael Press" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > In article
> > <[email protected]>,
> > "Dave" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> My spokes keep loosening, is their anything I can do? Thanks
> >> dave

> >
> > Keep tightening them or your wheel will fall off.


What is the origin of these wheels?

What is the history of these wheels?

What have you done to rectify the situation?

Do you know anything about wheel building?

Do not top post.

--
Michael Press
 
On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 20:07:10 -0700, jim beam
<[email protected]> wrote:

>not all bike shops are good at wheel building. in fact, very few are.
>have them show you the spoke tension with a tensiometer. if they don't
>have one, smile, take your bike and leave. if they do, note the tension
>and compare it to manufacturer spec. there's data in the archive here
>on that. also make sure spoke tension is as even as possible
>spoke-to-spoke.


I don't fully agree and I'm an amateur. When I builld up a wheel I go
through the usual lace, true, and then bring up to tension. I pluck
the spokes to get some idea of how even the tension is. Toward the
finish of the build I'll put my tensionometer on to see what the
tension actually is. Most of the time I get get the tension right
before measuring.

I would think a real wheel builder might need a tensiometer even less
than I do.
 
Michael Press wrote:
> In article
> <[email protected]>,
> "Dave" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I thought of putting loctite on them or something, is this a good idea or
> > what is please seriously.
> > Dave
> > "Michael Press" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > In article
> > > <[email protected]>,
> > > "Dave" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > >> My spokes keep loosening, is their anything I can do? Thanks
> > >> dave
> > >
> > > Keep tightening them or your wheel will fall off.

>
> What is the origin of these wheels?
>
> What is the history of these wheels?
>
> What have you done to rectify the situation?
>
> Do you know anything about wheel building?
>
> Do not top post.


Top posting causes loose spokes?

--
Tom Sherman - Behind the Cheddar Curtain
 
Worse than that, top posting causes world hunger!


Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:
> Michael Press wrote:
> > In article
> > <[email protected]>,
> > "Dave" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > I thought of putting loctite on them or something, is this a good idea or
> > > what is please seriously.
> > > Dave
> > > "Michael Press" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email protected]...
> > > > In article
> > > > <[email protected]>,
> > > > "Dave" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> My spokes keep loosening, is their anything I can do? Thanks
> > > >> dave
> > > >
> > > > Keep tightening them or your wheel will fall off.

> >
> > What is the origin of these wheels?
> >
> > What is the history of these wheels?
> >
> > What have you done to rectify the situation?
> >
> > Do you know anything about wheel building?
> >
> > Do not top post.

>
> Top posting causes loose spokes?
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Behind the Cheddar Curtain
 
In article
<[email protected]>,
"Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman" <[email protected]>
wrote:

> Michael Press wrote:
> > In article
> > <[email protected]>,
> > "Dave" <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > I thought of putting loctite on them or something, is this a good idea or
> > > what is please seriously.
> > > Dave
> > > "Michael Press" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email protected]...
> > > > In article
> > > > <[email protected]>,
> > > > "Dave" <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> My spokes keep loosening, is their anything I can do? Thanks
> > > >> dave
> > > >
> > > > Keep tightening them or your wheel will fall off.

> >
> > What is the origin of these wheels?
> >
> > What is the history of these wheels?
> >
> > What have you done to rectify the situation?
> >
> > Do you know anything about wheel building?
> >
> > Do not top post.

>
> Top posting causes loose spokes?


Also the main force behind rampant moral turpitude, global
warming, and cellulite,.

--
Michael Press
 
Sorry I didn't clarify wheel specs n weight. The wheel is a 36 spoke laced
to a 700 rigida rim vey narrow rim. My weight is 180lbs. Only carry about
10 lbs when riding this. The tires are 23cm armidillos if it matters. It's a
lightweight aluminum cannondale road bike 20 pounds if that.
Dave
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Dave who? writes:
>
>> My spokes keep loosening, is their anything I can do?

>
>> I thought of putting Loctite on them or something, is this a good
>> idea or what is please seriously.

>
> You didn't say how many spokes this wheel has and how much you weigh.
> This information would make more apparent what the problem might be.
>
> The only way spokes can loosen is that, under load, spokes pointing
> straight down to the road become slack from overload. After all "the
> wheel stands on the spokes at the bottom of the wheel", structurally
> speaking. When slack spoke nipples can unscrew, while the wheel is
> close to collapse against even light side loads. Most wheels seldom
> experience side loads so they generally don't fail that way.
>
> In any case, your spokes are not tight enough to carry the load borne
> by the few spokes in the load affected (road contact) zone. Loctite
> is not the answer, although it and similar glues have been used for
> wheels that experience rattling loose spokes, a problem with many
> machine built wheels (SpokePrep).
>
> The spokes need to be tighter and possibly more of them to stay tight
> and true.
>
> Please fill in the missing information.
>
> Jobst Brandt
>
 
Dave who? writes:

>>> My spokes keep loosening, is their anything I can do?


>>> I thought of putting Loctite on them or something, is this a good
>>> idea or what is please seriously.


>> You didn't say how many spokes this wheel has and how much you
>> weigh. This information would make more apparent what the problem
>> might be.


>> The only way spokes can loosen is that, under load, spokes pointing
>> straight down to the road become slack from overload. After all
>> "the wheel stands on the spokes at the bottom of the wheel",
>> structurally speaking. When slack spoke nipples can unscrew, while
>> the wheel is close to collapse against even light side loads. Most
>> wheels seldom experience side loads so they generally don't fail
>> that way.


>> In any case, your spokes are not tight enough to carry the load
>> borne by the few spokes in the load affected (road contact) zone.
>> Loctite is not the answer, although it and similar glues have been
>> used for wheels that experience rattling loose spokes, a problem
>> with many machine built wheels (SpokePrep).


>> The spokes need to be tighter and possibly more of them to stay
>> tight and true.


>> Please fill in the missing information.


> Sorry I didn't clarify wheel specs n weight. The wheel is a 36 spoke
> laced to a 700 Rigida rim very narrow rim. My weight is 180lbs. Only
> carry about 10 lbs when riding this. The tires are 23cm armadillos
> if it matters. It's a lightweight aluminum Cannondale road bike 20
> pounds if that.


You might notice the sequence of above text, called bottom response,
in which the foregoing is chronologically maintained for those who see
the item for the first time. Being new to this forum, it probably
isn't self evident, but it works for the regulars.

I assumed the information you gave for my earlier response. As I
said, spoke nipples can only loosen if they become slack so therein
lies your problem rather than an overload or too few spokes. If you
choose to fix this yourself, get a good spoke wrench and carefully put
a drop of (motor) oil at every spoke nipple to rim interface from the
outside (inner diameter) of the rim before making adjustments. People
often report of stripping brass spoke nipples, something that is only
possible with high (dry) rim friction, not thread drag. Do this with
the tire removed so you can readily asses roundness and centering.

You may just have a knack for this or you could develop one from a
book that describes all these operations and their significance. The
book is available from various sources among which is:

http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/books.html#brandt

Jobst Brandt