Re: Strange noise spokes, nipples, rim?

[Sheldon Brown]

Someone using the email address [email protected] wrote:

> I am facing a very strange problem. On my road bike I started hearing a
> strange, periodic, noise: wrm, wrm. After a lot of research I
> identified it as comming from a precise portion of the rim. If I put
> some presure on the wheel while this portion of the rim is on the
> ground the strange noise occurs. It seems like a metal on metal
> friction. I tested the rim: it's not broken, the spokes are tensioned
> ok, there is no broke nipple yet the noise persist. It is driving me
> crazy on the road: wrm, wrm. I have came to the following solution: to
> lubricate the nipples, rim jointure. Can this procedure hurt? I am
> affraid due to lubrication the spokes will loose tension in the long
> run.

You say "the spokes are tensioned ok" but I'm skeptical.

The symptom you describe sounds like what sometimes happens when they're
on the loose side. The spokes can rub against one another at the
outermost crossings.

Usually they make a "wrn wrn" sound, but you may be mishearing this as
"wrm wrm."

Try squeezing crossed pairs of spokes so that the crossing slides up or
down, see if that makes the same noise. Also look to see if the spokes
are marked up from friction where they cross.

Sheldon "That's My Guess" Brown
+-------------------------------------+
| One can never know what is enough |
| until one knows what is too much. |
| --William Blake |
+-------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

 

[david]

Look at the photos of the rim wear due to braking.. Tell tale sign that
there is something wrong with either the rim or spoke tension. It's hard to
believe that the wheel can be true at all, and if it is the rim is deformed.
The brake wear looks like it is sinusodial, not a nice straight circular
line following the rim. Is the rim alright? I second Sheldon's opinion,
spoke tension or screwed wheel.
Right around where it says MAVIC and SUP, doesn't look right.


David

"Sheldon Brown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Someone using the email address [email protected] wrote:
>
>> I am facing a very strange problem. On my road bike I started hearing a
>> strange, periodic, noise: wrm, wrm. After a lot of research I
>> identified it as comming from a precise portion of the rim. If I put
>> some presure on the wheel while this portion of the rim is on the
>> ground the strange noise occurs. It seems like a metal on metal
>> friction. I tested the rim: it's not broken, the spokes are tensioned
>> ok, there is no broke nipple yet the noise persist. It is driving me
>> crazy on the road: wrm, wrm. I have came to the following solution: to
>> lubricate the nipples, rim jointure. Can this procedure hurt? I am
>> affraid due to lubrication the spokes will loose tension in the long
>> run.
>
> You say "the spokes are tensioned ok" but I'm skeptical.
>
> The symptom you describe sounds like what sometimes happens when they're
> on the loose side. The spokes can rub against one another at the
> outermost crossings.
>
> Usually they make a "wrn wrn" sound, but you may be mishearing this as
> "wrm wrm."
>
> Try squeezing crossed pairs of spokes so that the crossing slides up or
> down, see if that makes the same noise. Also look to see if the spokes
> are marked up from friction where they cross.
>
> Sheldon "That's My Guess" Brown
> +-------------------------------------+
> | One can never know what is enough |
> | until one knows what is too much. |
> | --William Blake |
> +-------------------------------------+
> Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
> Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
> http://harriscyclery.com
> Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
> http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
>

 

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> Look at the photos of the rim wear due to braking.. Tell tale sign that
> there is something wrong with either the rim or spoke tension. It's hard
> to believe that the wheel can be true at all, and if it is the rim is
> deformed. The brake wear looks like it is sinusodial, not a nice straight
> circular line following the rim. Is the rim alright? I second Sheldon's
> opinion, spoke tension or screwed wheel.
> Right around where it says MAVIC and SUP, doesn't look right.

Unfortunately, the rim in question is well-known for its ability to make
noise. I finally gave up and rebuilt mine some time ago, and we had a lot of
customers with similar experiences. It was a known Mavic problem that Mavic
wouldn't publicly say existed, but somehow they fixed it after a while, and
they did replace rims for some people. If a bike was never ridden in the
rain it usually didn't show up; it seemed that wet/dry cycles brought it
out.

It could be something else, but this one is all too familiar to me.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"david" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Look at the photos of the rim wear due to braking.. Tell tale sign that
> there is something wrong with either the rim or spoke tension. It's hard
> to believe that the wheel can be true at all, and if it is the rim is
> deformed. The brake wear looks like it is sinusodial, not a nice straight
> circular line following the rim. Is the rim alright? I second Sheldon's
> opinion, spoke tension or screwed wheel.
> Right around where it says MAVIC and SUP, doesn't look right.
>
>
> David
>
> "Sheldon Brown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Someone using the email address [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>> I am facing a very strange problem. On my road bike I started hearing a
>>> strange, periodic, noise: wrm, wrm. After a lot of research I
>>> identified it as comming from a precise portion of the rim. If I put
>>> some presure on the wheel while this portion of the rim is on the
>>> ground the strange noise occurs. It seems like a metal on metal
>>> friction. I tested the rim: it's not broken, the spokes are tensioned
>>> ok, there is no broke nipple yet the noise persist. It is driving me
>>> crazy on the road: wrm, wrm. I have came to the following solution: to
>>> lubricate the nipples, rim jointure. Can this procedure hurt? I am
>>> affraid due to lubrication the spokes will loose tension in the long
>>> run.
>>
>> You say "the spokes are tensioned ok" but I'm skeptical.
>>
>> The symptom you describe sounds like what sometimes happens when they're
>> on the loose side. The spokes can rub against one another at the
>> outermost crossings.
>>
>> Usually they make a "wrn wrn" sound, but you may be mishearing this as
>> "wrm wrm."
>>
>> Try squeezing crossed pairs of spokes so that the crossing slides up or
>> down, see if that makes the same noise. Also look to see if the spokes
>> are marked up from friction where they cross.
>>
>> Sheldon "That's My Guess" Brown
>> +-------------------------------------+
>> | One can never know what is enough |
>> | until one knows what is too much. |
>> | --William Blake |
>> +-------------------------------------+
>> Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
>> Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
>> http://harriscyclery.com
>> Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
>> http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com
>>
>
>

 

[[email protected]]

Indeed, the brake marks looked curious to me whem I bought this bike
2-3 months ago so I checked the rim and it was not deformed. However
what you and Sheldon say seems the most plausible cause of the noise:
the nipples frictioning with the rim when the spoke is on the loose
side. I checked the spokes point of contact and there is no visbile
sign of friction. I will put a drop of oil at each nipple and see the
results. In the mean time I was able to record the sound.
http://len.is-a-geek.org/photo/rim/stream.mp3 (please ignore the
birds

Thanks for you help, Len

 

[Arthur Harris]

<[email protected]> wrote:
> In the mean time I was able to record the sound.
> http://len.is-a-geek.org/photo/rim/stream.mp3

Oh man! That doesn't sound like "wrm, wrm" at all! It's more like a creaky
squeak. Oil the eyelets!

Art Harris

 

[[email protected]]

Len Corciovei writes:

> Indeed, the brake marks looked curious to me when I bought this bike
> 2-3 months ago so I checked the rim and it was not deformed.
> However what you and Sheldon say seems the most plausible cause of
> the noise: the nipples rubbing with the rim when the spoke is on the
> loose side. I checked the spokes point of contact and there is no
> visible sign of friction. I will put a drop of oil at each nipple
> and see the results. In the mean time I was able to record the
> sound.

There won't be any signs of wear at spoke crossings until much riding
but a sound could come from there.

http://len.is-a-geek.org/photo/rim/stream.mp3

> (please ignore the birds

That sounds like the clicking of rusty spoke nipple to rim eyelet to
me. Faint clicking. Get that oil can and spoke wrench as I
suggested. Meanwhile, you might do your own wheel building and
truing. It isn't as difficult as it is made out to be by many folks.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/books.html#brandt

[email protected]

 

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> Indeed, the brake marks looked curious to me whem I bought this bike
> 2-3 months ago so I checked the rim and it was not deformed. However
> what you and Sheldon say seems the most plausible cause of the noise:
> the nipples frictioning with the rim when the spoke is on the loose
> side. I checked the spokes point of contact and there is no visbile
> sign of friction. I will put a drop of oil at each nipple and see the
> results. In the mean time I was able to record the sound.
> http://len.is-a-geek.org/photo/rim/stream.mp3 (please ignore the
> birds
>
> Thanks for you help, Len

I know that exact sound. You'll get rid of it temporarily with oil, but it
*will* come back. It's not spoke-tension related (although cranking the
spokes unbelievably tight might change it a bit, but it will always come
back). It's the infamous Mavic rim noise, very common for Mavic rims of that
era and type.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

 

[Luns Tee]

In article <[email protected]>,
david <[email protected]> wrote:
>If the rim was out of true that significantly at one point, most
>likely there is improper spoke tension to correct the problem.

You are seeing ghosts. Nothing in the photo suggests the rim is
out of true in the manner you seem to believe it is. The brake wear
pattern has already been explained, yet you choose to believe it's
evidence of something else.

The period of the brake track pattern is a single spoke
interval. If you're so convinced this is a product of spoke tension,
then explain what pattern of spoke tensions would cause something
that shows up once per spoke on several consecutive spokes.

-Luns

 

[Zog The Undeniable]

Joe Riel wrote:

> I have the same problem on my Mavic Open CD rim. Got the same
> response when I posted a few months ago. Oiling the nipples silenced
> the noise temporarily, but it returned after a ride or two. I was
> planning to rebuild this rim (32 hole) with an older, unused rim.
> Alas, it requires longer spokes and I'm not wild about replacing the
> spokes. Any recommendations on a size compatible rim?

According to Damon Rinard's Spocalc database, these rims have an ERD
within 1mm of the Open 4CD (607mm to 609mm):

Araya ADX-1W
Araya ADX-2
Bontrager PN 220472 Race Tubeless 29" OSB rim brake compatible
Bontrager PN 221850 Race Lite Tubeless 29" OSB rim brake compatible
Bontrager PN 981886 Clyde (24mm wide)
Bontrager PN 992115, 994103 Fairlane symmetric
Bontrager PN 992116, 994305 Fairlane OSB
Mavic Open SUP (ERD is Mavic's Nipple Seat Dia + 3mm for nipples)
Rigida/Weinmann ZAC 19 (ERD is Rigida's Nipple Seat Dia + 3mm for nipples)
Sun 0 degree XC
Sun CR17A
Velocity Razor (20mm wide x 16mm deep)
Vuelta Vision
Mavic MA3
Ambrosio Elite Prisma
Campagnolo Montreal '76 box style
Campagnolo Omega 19 box style (about 19mm wide)
FiR EA61
Mavic Open 4CD
Rigida CHRINA (ERD is Rigida's Nipple Seat Dia + 3mm for nipples)
Rigida EXCEL (ERD is Rigida's Nipple Seat Dia + 3mm for nipples)
Saavedra aero
Sun CR20
Wolber Profil A
Rolf Vector Pro, Araya made. For Greer internal nipples + 4mm washers
Rolf Vector Pro, Araya made. For Greer internal nipples + 4mm washers
Mavic T215
Fiamme 71-Sport
Matrix ISO CII
Araya ADX-1
Araya CTL185
Araya CTL385
Campagnolo Tokyo '64
FiR EA65
Sun CRE16
Sun CRT16II
Wheelsmith Rimfire

MA3 is probably the easiest to get and can be had in black to match.

 

[[email protected]]

I have oiled the eyelets and did a ride (around 90km) to a lake nearby.
Indeed the noise was gone and this made me very happy as these photos
can show: http://len.is-a-geek.org/photo/snagov_may_08/ . I will check
the spoke tension also as soon as possible.