Re: throat chakra hot spot



On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 21:08:19 GMT, "tools" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"Tom" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> > > One wonders if such effects are a product of belief rather than the
>> > > physical effects of the exercises themselves.
>> > >
>> > Well you could find a Qi Gong master, and ask him/her to prove it to

>you.
>> > But being a good little troll, you won't do that.

>>
>> Kind of hostile response to a thoughtful message.
>>
>> Well, I guess that tells me all I need to know about you.
>>
>>

>Well, GOOD, now crawl back under your rock.
>


Actually, I had the same basic question, just hadn't asked.

Are the effects the product of belief, or of the physical exercises?

What's the problem with asking? What's the problem with answering?
 
"Brett" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 25 Jun 2003 21:08:19 GMT, "tools" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Tom" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> > > One wonders if such effects are a product of belief rather than the
> >> > > physical effects of the exercises themselves.
> >> > >
> >> > Well you could find a Qi Gong master, and ask him/her to prove it to

> >you.
> >> > But being a good little troll, you won't do that.
> >>
> >> Kind of hostile response to a thoughtful message.
> >>
> >> Well, I guess that tells me all I need to know about you.
> >>
> >>

> >Well, GOOD, now crawl back under your rock.
> >

>
> Actually, I had the same basic question, just hadn't asked.
>
> Are the effects the product of belief, or of the physical exercises?
>
> What's the problem with asking? What's the problem with answering?
>

The problem with asking is with the attitude of the person asking.
No problem with answering, it just seems if one wants to know about Qi Gong,
one should seek someone well versed . A Qi Gong master can answer such
questions far better than I.
 
"David Wright" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> Tom <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >According to Dr. H H Shan MD, Director, Department of Social and Cross
> >Culture Psychiatry, Shanghai XuHui Mental Health Center, Shanghai,

China,
> >qigong psychosis is a culture-bound syndrome that affects believers in
> >qigong. Sometimes it occurs in people who have properly performed

qigong
> >exercises, not just inappropriate practices. The concepts of qigong are
> >not fully defined and there are more than 400 different methods of doing
> >qigong exercises. Which ones are the "proper" ones? How do you know?
> >
> >One wonders if such effects are a product of belief rather than the
> >physical effects of the exercises themselves.

>
> According to my own teacher, the confusion here is because qigong can
> refer both to the physical exercises, and to meditation -- and it's
> the latter that, when overdone, can lead to psychosis.


That contradicts some of the case histories I've found.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/china02/china0802-17.htm

Case 1: Mr. A is a 22-year-old unmarried worker. He began to learn himself
from Qigong books the "Wu Qin Xi" (exercise mimicking the gestures of five
animals) on November 26, 1984 for the treatment of lumbago. Ten days later,
he suddenly had "special cenesthesiopathy" with "Qi" flowing adversely in
the head and abdomen. When "Qi" flowed into his head, he felt fullness of
head and chest distress. When showing a Qigong gesture, he suffered agony
and anxiety, even attempting to commit suicide. Two hours later he was sent
to Shanghai Institute of Qigong for help. Guided by a Qigong master he
recovered. The next day he became delirious and claimed that he could hear
the voice of evil spirits; he prayed to Buddha for help but only lost his
self control. During the intervals of the attacks, the patient was normal.
But he could not work normally due to insomnia and difficulty in coping
with Qigong deviation.

Case 2: Mr. B is a 44-year-old married painter. He learned on his own the
"He Xiang Zhuang" (crane-flying Qigong), another school of Qigong in
February 1984, attempting to treat his ailment, the hypertrophy of cervical
vertebra. He had no personal psychiatric history, neither his family.
Several days after Qigong exercise, he was suddenly agitated with
hyperthymia. He claimed that he knew everything in the world, "water is
associated with the sea," when he talked about the sea, he would "think of
the American continent."
Three days later, he was diagnosed as schizophrenia-like disorder and was
treated in Shanghai Psychiatric Hospital. One month later he had remission.
Later he turned to learn the "Long Men Five Flow," another school of
Qigong. On the third morning he suddenly began to cry and dance, still
doing Qigong exercise in bed. He thought that his dead mother would be
brought back to life whereas he would become a ghost. He said that he could
see Buddha and God, and he believed in religion. He also smelt something
unusual. He was again admitted to Shanghai Psychiatric Hospital.

Now, I'm not familiar with these particular exercises, so I may well be
mistaken, but they seem to be physical exercises rather than strictly
meditation.
 
"Tom" <[email protected]> wrote

> According to Dr. H H Shan MD, Director, Department of Social and Cross
> Culture Psychiatry, Shanghai XuHui Mental Health Center, Shanghai, China,
> qigong psychosis is a culture-bound syndrome that affects believers in


So the diagnosis Qigong psychosis was not an urban legend then. Thank you
for the confirmation.

> qigong. Sometimes it occurs in people who have properly performed qigong
> exercises, not just inappropriate practices. The concepts of qigong are


Thanks for the additional information.


> not fully defined and there are more than 400 different methods of doing
> qigong exercises. Which ones are the "proper" ones? How do you know?


Then this proves that you do not understand Qigong.

Qi = Energy
Gong = Work.

Any Chinese form of energy work falls under the Qigong umbrella. There are
thousands of variants of Qigong. Some have physical movements like Ba Duan
Jin, Wah Nam, etc. Others have physical exercize; but the practitioner
stands relaxed and perfectly still like Zhan Zhuand, and others develop Qi
through the use of the mind such as Nei Gong, or Nei Dan, then there are
egorms that combine two of the three.

Aloha nui loa; Two Bears.

Received the title 'master' 8 times; and STILL working on self mastery.
Click the link to read my HUNA intro. http://www.geocities.com/huna101
 
"Tom" <[email protected]> wrote

> recovered. The next day he became delirious and claimed that he could hear
> the voice of evil spirits; he prayed to Buddha for help but only lost his
> self control. During the intervals of the attacks, the patient was normal.


Does my earlier message that in extreme condition the person with a mucked
up endocrine system would be unable to discern the difference between
physical and non physical reality sound familiar?

What this report did not state was how much the person practised the
exercizes, and the signals he received from his body, and if he ignored
them.

> Now, I'm not familiar with these particular exercises, so I may well be
> mistaken, but they seem to be physical exercises rather than strictly
> meditation.


Meditation is not the only way to overload the energy pathways.

I had my first Qi overload by standing in a complex Zhan Zhuang posture. My
sifu had given me the symptoms of a Qi overload; so I stopped the practise
and ate a sandwich and went outside.

Aloha nui loa; Two Bears.

Received the title 'master' 8 times; and STILL working on self mastery.
Click the link to read my HUNA intro. http://www.geocities.com/huna101
 
"Tom" <[email protected]> wrote

> Kirlian photography? You've fallen for that old rot? Now you're

confusing
> a simple gas corona discharge with qi.


Then why do the hands of Qigong masters , Reiki masters, and other energy
workers have a lighted area 5-10 times as wide as normal people?

> You're right. You are wasting your time on me if that sort of blather is
> all you've got.


;-) your word usage "sort of blather" speaks volumes.

Aloha nui loa; Two Bears.

Received the title 'master' 8 times; and STILL working on self mastery.
Click the link to read my HUNA intro. http://www.geocities.com/huna101
 
"Tom" <[email protected]> wrote

> I've never been a "debunker" and I have never written what you put into
> quotes.


A skeptic is one that disbelieves; but is willing to listen. You are not, so
that makes you a debunker.

I never accused you of saying that. I said you used that attitude.

Qi is experiential. you have to test it and prove it to yourself.

I have proved well beyond MY satisfaction that Qi is real.

Completely healed a mangled foot and was walking 28 days after the doctor
suggested amputation above the ankle. The foot had a partialy torn achilles
tendon, and two broken bones. The foot was four colors of the rainbow, and
swollen three times it's normal size.

directing energy into Tammy F's injured hand for a few minutes and she was
able to regain the used of her hand. Tammy F was exactly like you. a
complete disbeliever in energy work, and her expression after she moved her
hand for the first time in two days was "Damn! This is cool!"

directing energy into cheekbones and ears of Kelly C. and sheturned beet red
from the top of her head to her waist in minutes. She was complaining of a
sinus infection and ear ache, and her health problems were GONE.

I would suggest that you actually experience it for yourself. sign up for a
class and do the exercizes and experience the feeling of increased energy
flowing in your body.

> However, people whose beliefs are easily threatened and who haven't got
> enough evidence to back up their silly claims have often made up quotes to
> attribute to me in an effort to erect a straw man.


It is NOT belief. When I was 19 and my sifu started talking about Qi; my
western trained mind could not accept it either. As a matter of fact I
thought he was the biggest crackpot ever to walk the earth! I saw him do
things that some people would classify as supernatural.

> If what you're trying to do is bluff with a busted flush, you are indeed


I am not bluffing. just trying to get you to open your mind and heart.

Physic professors state that 90% of the matter in the universe is dark
matter that can not be found and measured.

Aloha nui loa; Two Bears.

Received the title 'master' 8 times; and STILL working on self mastery.
Click the link to read my HUNA intro. http://www.geocities.com/huna101
 
"Two_Bears" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Tom" <[email protected]> wrote
>
>
> > not fully defined and there are more than 400 different methods of

doing
> > qigong exercises. Which ones are the "proper" ones? How do you know?

>
> Then this proves that you do not understand Qigong.
>
> Qi = Energy
> Gong = Work.
>
> Any Chinese form of energy work falls under the Qigong umbrella. There

are
> thousands of variants of Qigong. Some have physical movements like Ba

Duan
> Jin, Wah Nam, etc. Others have physical exercize; but the practitioner
> stands relaxed and perfectly still like Zhan Zhuand, and others develop

Qi
> through the use of the mind such as Nei Gong, or Nei Dan, then there are
> egorms that combine two of the three.


But qigong psychosis is alleged to come from inappropriate qigong
practices. Are you saying there is no such thing as an inappropriate or
improper qigong practice?
 
"Two_Bears" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Tom" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> > Kirlian photography? You've fallen for that old rot? Now you're

> confusing
> > a simple gas corona discharge with qi.

>
> Then why do the hands of Qigong masters , Reiki masters, and other energy
> workers have a lighted area 5-10 times as wide as normal people?


Before concluding that this is indeed the case, you should be aware that
the variables that govern the size and shape of a kirlian photo image
include the voltage and current discharge, current density through the
sample, discharge frequency, pulse shape, overall resistance in the plate,
sample, and emulsion surrounding it, the electrical field configuration,
point-plane, high-voltage plane, grounding shape plane, and the pressure of
the sample on the plate. Any or all of these can and often do vary widely
from one photograph to another, even with the same equipment. In addition,
results can vary due to atmospheric humidity, the moisture content of the
sample, and different chemicals which happen to be on the sample which
could affect conductivity.

If you have some specific studies in which your claim about the increased
size of the kirlian photo images of qigong masters or other energy workers,
we might be able to check to see if these variables were properly
controlled.
 
"Nadie Niemand" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 26 Jun 2003 02:19:42 GMT, "Tom" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >Now, I'm not familiar with these particular exercises, so I may well be
> >mistaken, but they seem to be physical exercises rather than strictly
> >meditation.

>
> Tom this is where a lack of experience and/or research causes
> misunderstanding and unnecessary argument. Especially since the name
> of one of the newsgroups this thread has been crossposted to,
> alt.meditation.qigong, should have been a big hint. :) Qigong
> exercises are not performed the same way you would perform a routine
> in your aerobics class at the gym. The movements (when there are
> movements--there are many different kinds of qigong) are done slowly,
> usually, but not always, with relaxed muscles, with deep, slow,
> rhythmic, diaphramatic breathing and a relaxed state of mind. The
> deep, slow breathing, also characteristic of various meditation and
> yoga practices, is what gives qigong its name, "qi" meaning breath and
> "gong" meaning work. The moving varieties of qigong can be
> characterized as a moving meditation.
>
> The case histories you presented sound pretty bizarre. From the way
> they are written, I suspect that the individuals involved already had
> some sort of major problem and that the qigong was just a convenient
> scapegoat. Or maybe someone wanted to "prove" that qigong is a
> dangerous thing without an experienced teacher to follow. (Maybe even
> a "real master" wanted to do this to help his business situation) Or
> perhaps this is simply a case of "you can find anything you like to
> support any position you like on the internet". But this is merely my
> hastily formed reaction based on what little was present in your post,
> not on real research and experience of such situations, so YMMV. At
> any rate, I'm not sure what you were trying to prove or demonstrate or
> give an example of with these two particular case histories?


I've cited a couple of articles on qigong psychosis, both from people who
are doing serious research on the subject in China. These are not just
anecdotes, but samples from fairly extensive research work.

You can read them for yourself and form your own conclusions.

http://kundalini-info.org/qigong2.html

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/china02/china0802-17.htm

As for whether qigong is "dangerous", I suspect it is not. It's my
impression that qigong "overloads" are a product of suggestibility, not
some dangerous flow of energy.

I merely joined this thread in order to question a claim about damage being
done to the endocrine system due to the overuse of qigong exercises.

> I hope this has been of some help. Any further replies from me
> concerning qigong will be limited to alt.meditation.qigong. I fail to
> see why this is crossposted to the other 4 groups.


Crossposting often adds new points of view, as well as a certain amount of
muddle. I didn't select the groups, though. I'm merely responding.
 
"Two_Bears" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Tom" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> > I've never been a "debunker" and I have never written what you put into
> > quotes.

>
> A skeptic is one that disbelieves; but is willing to listen. You are not,

so
> that makes you a debunker.


Well, I see no point in arguing with a mind that is already made up.
 
"Tom" <[email protected]> wrote

> Feel free to contact the author of the article if you want more details on
> this case.


Why would I want to contact the author. I would need to discuss the matter
with the person that had the incident.

> OK, but you seem to be in disagreement with David Wright's qigong teacher.


So what? He had one perspective; I have another.

My overload was by practising a complicated Zhan Zhuang pose. The person
that is on life sustaining meditation; he practised over an hour a day in
intense meditation trying to open his third eye and attain clairvoyance and
other paranormal abilities. The other three people created their overloads
by overdoing physical exercizes. They were not patient to allow their body
to change gradually.

> According to Dr Shan's article, the majority of cases of qigong psychosis
> were among those who were practicing from a book instead of from a

teacher.

I have no problems with that statement several Qigong books contain both
beginning and advanced material (trying to appeal to beginners and more
advanced practitioners) Now you understand why I have two lists of
recommended Qigong books.

One list with books such as "The Way Of Energy", "Chi Kung: For Health And
Vitality", "8 simple Qigong exercizes", etc for beginners, and "Ch'i: The
Power Within", "The Art Of Qigong", The Root Of Chinese Qigong", etc for
more advanced practitioners.

There are some exercizes that are absolutely unsafe until the person has
learned the basics, and know how Qi is supposed to feel when dome correctly.

> Of 129 cases he studied, 100 of them were self-taught, 23 had an

individual
> teacher and 6 were in groups. So it might be that having someone you

trust
> and respect to talk to about what you're feeling may help.


A teacher is a lot of help by spotting the problems early, and can help the
person get themself out of trouble.

If a person gets a good beginner book ("The Way Of Energy", and "Chi Kung:
For Health And Vitality") are two good beginner books, and follows the
directions; they are great; but then another person can go to a Qigong
master, and not follow the instructions when they practise at home and get
themself into trouble.

> He also notes that most cases were of short duration, like yours, but that
> simply stopping the practice did not abate the symptoms.


What I experienced was a one time overload of Qi; not Qigong psychosis.

Stopping the practise alone is not enough.

Stopping the practise and going for a walk, or stopping the practise and
eating something to start the digestive juices flowing will aid in stopping
the symptoms.

> Further, he notes that the people most likely to suffer severe reactions
> have pre-existing psychological problems.


This I have no first hand information to confront it.

Aloha nui loa; Two Bears.

Received the title 'master' 8 times; and STILL working on self mastery.
Click the link to read my HUNA intro. http://www.geocities.com/huna101
 
"Tom" <[email protected]> wrote

> If you have some specific studies in which your claim about the increased
> size of the kirlian photo images of qigong masters or other energy

workers,
> we might be able to check to see if these variables were properly
> controlled.


If memory serves; on page 20 (if memory serves) of "Empowerment Through
Reiki"; it shows kirlian photos of the authors hands normaly, and when she
was directing energy. I'm sure the front of the book tells to contact the
author, and Ms. Horan; may be able to fill you in on those details.

Aloha nui loa; Two Bears.

Received the title 'master' 8 times; and STILL working on self mastery.
Click the link to read my HUNA intro. http://www.geocities.com/huna101
 
"Tom" <[email protected]> wrote

> As for whether qigong is "dangerous", I suspect it is not. It's my
> impression that qigong "overloads" are a product of suggestibility, not
> some dangerous flow of energy.


Everyone is entitled to their opinion even when they are wrong.

Aloha nui loa; Two Bears.

Received the title 'master' 8 times; and STILL working on self mastery.
Click the link to read my HUNA intro. http://www.geocities.com/huna101
 
"Tom" <[email protected]> wrote

> But qigong psychosis is alleged to come from inappropriate qigong
> practices. Are you saying there is no such thing as an inappropriate or
> improper qigong practice?


I am saying there are thousands of different variants of Qigong.

The only improper Qigong practise I am aware of is to practise and disregard
the subtle signals coming from our body.
 
--

"Two_Bears" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Physic [sic] professors state that 90% of the matter in the universe is

dark
> matter that can not be found and measured.
>


And the point is that dark matter cannot be found and measured because the
only influence it exerts on the visible portion of the universe is
gravitational. Gravity is the weakest form of energy, and since it's
attraction falls off as the square of the distance, the effect of all the
dark matter on the whole universe on your endocrine glands is less than the
effect exerted by the gravity of the coffee cup on your desk.

You can't invoke dark matter as qi or any other "energy" affecting the human
body. The human body, including your endocrine glands, follows the same
rules of physics as the rest of the universe and is not likely to be capable
of detecting and responding to influences that are not detectable with
scientific instruments. If you believe there is an energy form that is thus
far unknown to science, then the burden of proof is on you to prove it and
describe how it interacts with the known universe. Then sit back and wait
for your Nobel.

--Rich
 
Many cooks make a whole lotta mess?

"Two_Bears" <[email protected]> skrev i melding
news:[email protected]...
> "Joseph Forman" <[email protected]> wrote
>
> > Slight correction. The Ren is the conception vessel. The Du is the
> > governing vessel.

>
> Thanks for the tip.
>
> I may have confused the Ren and Du; but I still knew Conceptoion Qi vessel
> went from the tip of the tongue then sown the front of the abdomen to the
> hui Yin, and Governing goes from the Hui Yin uo the spine and op the back

of
> the skull across the Bai Hui vital point and down the front of the face

and
> ends at the gum tissue above the two front teeth.
>
> Aloha nui loa; Two Bears.
>
> Received the title 'master' 8 times; and STILL working on self mastery.
> Click the link to read my HUNA intro. http://www.geocities.com/huna101
>
>
>
 
"Rich Shewmaker" <[email protected]> wrote

> And the point is that dark matter cannot be found and measured because the
> only influence it exerts on the visible portion of the universe is
> gravitational. Gravity is the weakest form of energy, and since it's
> attraction falls off as the square of the distance, the effect of all the
> dark matter on the whole universe on your endocrine glands is less than

the
> effect exerted by the gravity of the coffee cup on your desk.
>
> You can't invoke dark matter as qi or any other "energy" affecting the

human
> body. The human body, including your endocrine glands, follows the same
> rules of physics as the rest of the universe and is not likely to be

capable
> of detecting and responding to influences that are not detectable with
> scientific instruments. If you believe there is an energy form that is

thus
> far unknown to science, then the burden of proof is on you to prove it and
> describe how it interacts with the known universe. Then sit back and wait
> for your Nobel.


Rich: I that you need to work on your reading comprehension.

No where did I say that Qi and dark matter were in any way related.

I KNOW Qi is real from first hand experience.

Physicists postulate the idea of dark matter.

Neither can be detected or measured by science.

Aloha nui loa; Two Bears.

Received the title 'master' 8 times; and STILL working on self mastery.
Click the link to read my HUNA intro. http://www.geocities.com/huna101
 
On Fri, 27 Jun 2003 23:59:03 -1000, "Rich Shewmaker"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Qi cannot be detected or measured, and your "first hand experience" will be
>insufficient evidence to earn you that Nobel.


So, you have designed and carried out experiments, or read reports of
experiments designed and carried out by others (perhaps something
similar to the Michelson-Morley experiment that disproved the idea of
an ether for explaining the behavior of light), that demonstrate that
qi cannot be detected or measured? Interesting! Could we have the
publication information or a URL please?

If you have not, then please refrain from making unscientific
proclamations in the name of science. You are held to the same
standards as others if you wish to do science.

Garry
 
"Nadie Niemand" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 27 Jun 2003 23:59:03 -1000, "Rich Shewmaker"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Qi cannot be detected or measured, and your "first hand experience"

will be
> >insufficient evidence to earn you that Nobel.

>
> So, you have designed and carried out experiments, or read reports of
> experiments designed and carried out by others (perhaps something
> similar to the Michelson-Morley experiment that disproved the idea of
> an ether for explaining the behavior of light), that demonstrate that
> qi cannot be detected or measured? Interesting! Could we have the
> publication information or a URL please?


Do you feel that qi can be detected and measured in some way that would
provide acceptable evidence of its existence to the scientific community?