Re: Time to bomb Iran?



On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 17:46:21 -0700, Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Jun 12, 5:18 pm, Donald Gillies wrote:
>> "Dear Carl" writes:
>> >On 12 Jun 2007 11:46:56 -0700, Donald Gillies wrote:
>> >>Jew Lieberman is one of many Israeli-Americans who believe that any
>> >>time we whack a middle-eastern country - and enemy of Israel - life is
>> >>good. The goal of this radical faction is to get the USA sucked into
>> >>the middle of a 10,000-year old mid-east religious conflict.

>>
>> >>When that happens, this country ends. We are above religion. They
>> >>want to bring us down to their level. Don't end this country.

>>
>> >>- Don Gillies
>> >>San Diego, CA
>> >Don,
>> >Did you write this post? Or is someone spoofing your email address?
>> >Carl Fogel

>>
>> Nobody is spoofing my email address, HOWEVER, I will say that my
>> concept of Israeli-Americans and their attitude towards america is
>> shaped by discussions with several close jewish friends of mine....

>
>So which country is their REAL loyalty to?


Like many people in the US, there is a dual loyalty. Lieberman takes
it to another level; he'd see the US in endless war if he thought it
would be good for Israel. Well, actually, that's the way he does see
it and that's why he wants endless war.
 
On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 18:19:42 -0500, Tim McNamara
<[email protected]> wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] (Donald Gillies) wrote:
>
>> Jew Lieberman is one of many Israeli-Americans who believe that any
>> time we whack a middle-eastern country - and enemy of Israel - life
>> is good. The goal of this radical faction is to get the USA sucked
>> into the middle of a 10,000-year old mid-east religious conflict.

>
>Pretty good trick considering the world was created on October 23, 4404
>BC (well, there seems to be some disagreement on the precise date).
>
>However, tongue taken back out of cheek, given that Jewish history does
>not stretch back much more than 5,000 years and that Islam came into
>existence around 632 AD, the notion of a 10,000 year conflict is not
>credible.
>



That brings up the old joke. If the Jewish civilization began 6000
years ago, and the Chinese civilization began 5000 years ago, where
did the Jews eat for the first 1000 years?
 
dgk wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 17:49:11 -0700, Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Jun 12, 6:20 pm, Tim McNamara wrote:
>>> In article <[email protected]>,
>>> Bill Sornson wrote:
>>>
>>>> Donald Gillies wrote:
>>>>> Jew Lieberman is one of many Israeli-Americans who believe that
>>>>> any time we whack a middle-eastern country - and enemy of Israel
>>>>> - life is good. The goal of this radical faction is to get the
>>>>> USA sucked into the middle of a 10,000-year old mid-east
>>>>> religious conflict.
>>>
>>>>> When that happens, this country ends. We are above religion.
>>>>> They want to bring us down to their level. Don't end this
>>>>> country.
>>>
>>>> Calling people names like "Jew Lieberman" will end this country
>>>> soon enough.
>>>
>>>> Get a clue.
>>>
>>> Yup. Liebberman's a twit but that's no reason to be rude about him.

>>
>> There are plenty of reasons to be rude about Joseph "I Love Bush"
>> Lieberman, but his ethnicity is not one of them.

>
> Quite correct, I'm Jewish and think that Lieberman is a fascist. He's
> the senator from Likud and worse, a true neocon. The really sad part
> is that bombing Iran will likely result in the destruction of Israel.


None of you apparently read what Lieberman actually /said/, and instead are
going by what EDWARD DOLAN said he said! Might as well be blog blather...

(Hint: he mentioned one base that's close to the Iran/Iraq border, that's
been proven to be supplying both arms and men to both the insurgency AND the
Taliban. Only in your world view would it be "fascist" to respond.)
 
Bill Sornson wrote:
> dgk wrote:
>> On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 17:49:11 -0700, Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> On Jun 12, 6:20 pm, Tim McNamara wrote:
>>>> In article <[email protected]>,
>>>> Bill Sornson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Donald Gillies wrote:
>>>>>> Jew Lieberman is one of many Israeli-Americans who believe that
>>>>>> any time we whack a middle-eastern country - and enemy of Israel
>>>>>> - life is good. The goal of this radical faction is to get the
>>>>>> USA sucked into the middle of a 10,000-year old mid-east
>>>>>> religious conflict.
>>>>
>>>>>> When that happens, this country ends. We are above religion.
>>>>>> They want to bring us down to their level. Don't end this
>>>>>> country.
>>>>
>>>>> Calling people names like "Jew Lieberman" will end this country
>>>>> soon enough.
>>>>
>>>>> Get a clue.
>>>>
>>>> Yup. Liebberman's a twit but that's no reason to be rude about
>>>> him.
>>>
>>> There are plenty of reasons to be rude about Joseph "I Love Bush"
>>> Lieberman, but his ethnicity is not one of them.

>>
>> Quite correct, I'm Jewish and think that Lieberman is a fascist. He's
>> the senator from Likud and worse, a true neocon. The really sad part
>> is that bombing Iran will likely result in the destruction of Israel.

>
> None of you apparently read what Lieberman actually /said/, and
> instead are going by what EDWARD DOLAN said he said! Might as well
> be blog blather...
> (Hint: he mentioned one base that's close to the Iran/Iraq border,
> that's been proven to be supplying both arms and men to both the
> insurgency AND the Taliban. Only in your world view would it be
> "fascist" to respond.)


PS: Here's your fascist: http://youtube.com/watch?v=9JE48XHKG64

(Listen to the WHOLE THING.)
 
On Jun 13, 11:43 am, Bill Sornson wrote:
> dgk wrote:
> > On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 17:49:11 -0700, Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:

>
> >> On Jun 12, 6:20 pm, Tim McNamara wrote:
> >>> In article <[email protected]>,
> >>> Bill Sornson wrote:

>
> >>>> Donald Gillies wrote:
> >>>>> Jew Lieberman is one of many Israeli-Americans who believe that
> >>>>> any time we whack a middle-eastern country - and enemy of Israel
> >>>>> - life is good. The goal of this radical faction is to get the
> >>>>> USA sucked into the middle of a 10,000-year old mid-east
> >>>>> religious conflict.

>
> >>>>> When that happens, this country ends. We are above religion.
> >>>>> They want to bring us down to their level. Don't end this
> >>>>> country.

>
> >>>> Calling people names like "Jew Lieberman" will end this country
> >>>> soon enough.

>
> >>>> Get a clue.

>
> >>> Yup. Liebberman's a twit but that's no reason to be rude about him.

>
> >> There are plenty of reasons to be rude about Joseph "I Love Bush"
> >> Lieberman, but his ethnicity is not one of them.

>
> > Quite correct, I'm Jewish and think that Lieberman is a fascist. He's
> > the senator from Likud and worse, a true neocon. The really sad part
> > is that bombing Iran will likely result in the destruction of Israel.

>
> None of you apparently read what Lieberman actually /said/, and instead are
> going by what EDWARD DOLAN said he said! Might as well be blog blather...
>
> (Hint: he mentioned one base that's close to the Iran/Iraq border, that's
> been proven to be supplying both arms and men to both the insurgency AND the
> Taliban. Only in your world view would it be "fascist" to respond.)


Yo Sornson,

The US has been supplying weapons and money to terrorist groups
attacking Iran, not to mention incursions into Iran by US Special
Forces. Double standard, anyone?

Iran had a DEMOCRATIC and SECULAR government until the CIA supported a
coup putting the brutal and authoritarian Shah Pahlavi back in power.
The Shah's SAVAK security police arrested and tortured thousands of
pro-democracy Iranians, with the complicity of US administrations from
Eisenhower to Carter.

If you don't like the current Iranian government, send your complaints
to Allen Welsh Dulles.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
 
On Jun 13, 6:46 am, Aeek who? wrote:
> This would be because they're anti females riding bicycles?


I think it is due to a lack of context!!!

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
 
On Jun 13, 6:31 pm, Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman
<[email protected]> wrote:
> On Jun 13, 11:43 am, Bill Sornson wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > dgk wrote:
> > > On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 17:49:11 -0700, Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:

>
> > >> On Jun 12, 6:20 pm, Tim McNamara wrote:
> > >>> In article <[email protected]>,
> > >>> Bill Sornson wrote:

>
> > >>>> Donald Gillies wrote:
> > >>>>> Jew Lieberman is one of many Israeli-Americans who believe that
> > >>>>> any time we whack a middle-eastern country - and enemy of Israel
> > >>>>> - life is good. The goal of this radical faction is to get the
> > >>>>> USA sucked into the middle of a 10,000-year old mid-east
> > >>>>> religious conflict.

>
> > >>>>> When that happens, this country ends. We are above religion.
> > >>>>> They want to bring us down to their level. Don't end this
> > >>>>> country.

>
> > >>>> Calling people names like "Jew Lieberman" will end this country
> > >>>> soon enough.

>
> > >>>> Get a clue.

>
> > >>> Yup. Liebberman's a twit but that's no reason to be rude about him.

>
> > >> There are plenty of reasons to be rude about Joseph "I Love Bush"
> > >> Lieberman, but his ethnicity is not one of them.

>
> > > Quite correct, I'm Jewish and think that Lieberman is a fascist. He's
> > > the senator from Likud and worse, a true neocon. The really sad part
> > > is that bombing Iran will likely result in the destruction of Israel.

>
> > None of you apparently read what Lieberman actually /said/, and instead are
> > going by what EDWARD DOLAN said he said! Might as well be blog blather...

>
> > (Hint: he mentioned one base that's close to the Iran/Iraq border, that's
> > been proven to be supplying both arms and men to both the insurgency AND the
> > Taliban. Only in your world view would it be "fascist" to respond.)

>
> Yo Sornson,
>
> The US has been supplying weapons and money to terrorist groups
> attacking Iran, not to mention incursions into Iran by US Special
> Forces. Double standard, anyone?


First law of US foreign policy: Do as We say, not as We do.


>
> Iran had a DEMOCRATIC and SECULAR government until the CIA supported a
> coup putting the brutal and authoritarian Shah Pahlavi back in power.


Second law of US foreign policy: free and democratic elections are
great unless and until they result in a government of which We
disapprove.


> The Shah's SAVAK security police arrested and tortured thousands of
> pro-democracy Iranians, with the complicity of US administrations from
> Eisenhower to Carter.
>
> If you don't like the current Iranian government, send your complaints
> to Allen Welsh Dulles.
>
> --
> Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
> The weather is here, wish you were beautiful- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
 
[email protected] wrote:
>>

> Dear Andres,
>
> I think that calling Senator Joe Lieberman Jew Lieberman speaks for
> itself.


I've got to agree with this.

I'd consider myself anti-Zionist, but that hardly means anti-semitic. I
think the above name-calling steps over the line.
 
On Wed, 13 Jun 2007 16:31:48 -0700, Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On Jun 13, 11:43 am, Bill Sornson wrote:
>> dgk wrote:
>> > On Tue, 12 Jun 2007 17:49:11 -0700, Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:

>>
>> >> On Jun 12, 6:20 pm, Tim McNamara wrote:
>> >>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> >>> Bill Sornson wrote:

>>
>> >>>> Donald Gillies wrote:
>> >>>>> Jew Lieberman is one of many Israeli-Americans who believe that
>> >>>>> any time we whack a middle-eastern country - and enemy of Israel
>> >>>>> - life is good. The goal of this radical faction is to get the
>> >>>>> USA sucked into the middle of a 10,000-year old mid-east
>> >>>>> religious conflict.

>>
>> >>>>> When that happens, this country ends. We are above religion.
>> >>>>> They want to bring us down to their level. Don't end this
>> >>>>> country.

>>
>> >>>> Calling people names like "Jew Lieberman" will end this country
>> >>>> soon enough.

>>
>> >>>> Get a clue.

>>
>> >>> Yup. Liebberman's a twit but that's no reason to be rude about him.

>>
>> >> There are plenty of reasons to be rude about Joseph "I Love Bush"
>> >> Lieberman, but his ethnicity is not one of them.

>>
>> > Quite correct, I'm Jewish and think that Lieberman is a fascist. He's
>> > the senator from Likud and worse, a true neocon. The really sad part
>> > is that bombing Iran will likely result in the destruction of Israel.

>>
>> None of you apparently read what Lieberman actually /said/, and instead are
>> going by what EDWARD DOLAN said he said! Might as well be blog blather...
>>
>> (Hint: he mentioned one base that's close to the Iran/Iraq border, that's
>> been proven to be supplying both arms and men to both the insurgency AND the
>> Taliban. Only in your world view would it be "fascist" to respond.)

>
>Yo Sornson,
>
>The US has been supplying weapons and money to terrorist groups
>attacking Iran, not to mention incursions into Iran by US Special
>Forces. Double standard, anyone?
>
>Iran had a DEMOCRATIC and SECULAR government until the CIA supported a
>coup putting the brutal and authoritarian Shah Pahlavi back in power.
>The Shah's SAVAK security police arrested and tortured thousands of
>pro-democracy Iranians, with the complicity of US administrations from
>Eisenhower to Carter.
>
>If you don't like the current Iranian government, send your complaints
>to Allen Welsh Dulles.



Oh, but that is in the past, now everything we do is for freedom, not
profit.

Until our invasion of Iraq (for profit) the youngsters in Iran were
close to pushing the mullahs out of power. Then we invaded Iraq,
showing the Iranians that the Mullahs were correct and that the US
only cared about the oil.

Of course, the reason that the Mullahs are in power in the first place
is because our Shah eliminated (ie, killed) all the non-religious
opposition, leaving only the Mullahs.
 
On Wed, 13 Jun 2007, Bill Sornson wrote:

> dgk wrote:
>>
>> Quite correct, I'm Jewish and think that Lieberman is a fascist. He's
>> the senator from Likud and worse, a true neocon. The really sad part
>> is that bombing Iran will likely result in the destruction of Israel.

>
> None of you apparently read what Lieberman actually /said/, and instead are
> going by what EDWARD DOLAN said he said! Might as well be blog blather...
>
> (Hint: he mentioned one base that's close to the Iran/Iraq border, that's
> been proven to be supplying both arms and men to both the insurgency AND the
> Taliban. Only in your world view would it be "fascist" to respond.)
>


It would be amusing, were it not so tragic, to see Americans like Bill
Sornson thinking that there is something so terrible about Iran supplying
arms to its neighbour and its coreligionists, while the USA has invaded
that country, thousands of miles away, for no good reason, causing
hundreds of thousands of deaths and many more to come when they pull out.
 
On Jun 14, 8:23 am, Carl Riehm <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Jun 2007, Bill Sornson wrote:
> > dgk wrote:

>
> >> Quite correct, I'm Jewish and think that Lieberman is a fascist. He's
> >> the senator from Likud and worse, a true neocon. The really sad part
> >> is that bombing Iran will likely result in the destruction of Israel.

>
> > None of you apparently read what Lieberman actually /said/, and instead are
> > going by what EDWARD DOLAN said he said! Might as well be blog blather...

>
> > (Hint: he mentioned one base that's close to the Iran/Iraq border, that's
> > been proven to be supplying both arms and men to both the insurgency AND the
> > Taliban. Only in your world view would it be "fascist" to respond.)

>
> It would be amusing, were it not so tragic, to see Americans like Bill
> Sornson thinking that there is something so terrible about Iran supplying
> arms to its neighbour and its coreligionists, while the USA has invaded
> that country, thousands of miles away, for no good reason, causing
> hundreds of thousands of deaths and many more to come when they pull out.


What is sad about the whole thing is that the government makes
decisions without consulting people with expertise about culture,
history, past, etc. Then they act surprise when there is anti-american
sentiment. Also, they declare things that if you know anything about
the culture you know that it is a lie. But, if you are gullible, you
buy into it. For example, a senior official declared that there is
evidence that Iran is supplying guns to the Taliban. this is
borderline absurd. Of course, the senior official is not educated
enough, nor he cares to understand the differences between Iran and
the Taliban. They just make a statement and hope the americans who
love Budwiser would beleive it and that is it. To most Americans,
Iran, Iraq, the Taliban and afganistan are the same thing. they don't
give a hoot as to the differences. As long as we can keep drinking bud
light, who cares what the white house tells us. All we worry about is
when the government says that we need to bomb Iran, or they'll take
our miller away.

Andres
 
Carl Riehm wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Jun 2007, Bill Sornson wrote:
>
>> dgk wrote:
>>>
>>> Quite correct, I'm Jewish and think that Lieberman is a fascist.
>>> He's the senator from Likud and worse, a true neocon. The really
>>> sad part is that bombing Iran will likely result in the destruction
>>> of Israel.

>>
>> None of you apparently read what Lieberman actually /said/, and
>> instead are going by what EDWARD DOLAN said he said! Might as well
>> be blog blather... (Hint: he mentioned one base that's close to the
>> Iran/Iraq border,
>> that's been proven to be supplying both arms and men to both the
>> insurgency AND the Taliban. Only in your world view would it be
>> "fascist" to respond.)

>
> It would be amusing, were it not so tragic, to see Americans like Bill
> Sornson thinking that there is something so terrible about Iran
> supplying arms to its neighbour and its coreligionists, while the USA
> has invaded that country, thousands of miles away, for no good
> reason, causing hundreds of thousands of deaths and many more to come
> when they pull out.


Iran is violating International Law by aiding and abetting the Taliban. I
thought you guys actually CARE what the U.N. says. LOL My bad.

Enjoy your ostrichnesshood...
 
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 12:40:27 -0400, Bill Sornson <[email protected]> wrote:

> Carl Riehm wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 Jun 2007, Bill Sornson wrote:
>>
>>> dgk wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Quite correct, I'm Jewish and think that Lieberman is a fascist.
>>>> He's the senator from Likud and worse, a true neocon. The really
>>>> sad part is that bombing Iran will likely result in the destruction
>>>> of Israel.
>>>
>>> None of you apparently read what Lieberman actually /said/, and
>>> instead are going by what EDWARD DOLAN said he said! Might as well
>>> be blog blather... (Hint: he mentioned one base that's close to the
>>> Iran/Iraq border,
>>> that's been proven to be supplying both arms and men to both the
>>> insurgency AND the Taliban. Only in your world view would it be
>>> "fascist" to respond.)

>>
>> It would be amusing, were it not so tragic, to see Americans like Bill
>> Sornson thinking that there is something so terrible about Iran
>> supplying arms to its neighbour and its coreligionists, while the USA
>> has invaded that country, thousands of miles away, for no good
>> reason, causing hundreds of thousands of deaths and many more to come
>> when they pull out.

>
> Iran is violating International Law by aiding and abetting the Taliban.
> I
> thought you guys actually CARE what the U.N. says. LOL My bad.
>
> Enjoy your ostrichnesshood...
>
>


You mean like the UN said (or at least agreed with) that Iraq had weapons
of mass destruction?

--
Bob in CT
 
Bob in CT wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 12:40:27 -0400, Bill Sornson <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Carl Riehm wrote:
>>> On Wed, 13 Jun 2007, Bill Sornson wrote:
>>>
>>>> dgk wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Quite correct, I'm Jewish and think that Lieberman is a fascist.
>>>>> He's the senator from Likud and worse, a true neocon. The really
>>>>> sad part is that bombing Iran will likely result in the
>>>>> destruction of Israel.
>>>>
>>>> None of you apparently read what Lieberman actually /said/, and
>>>> instead are going by what EDWARD DOLAN said he said! Might as well
>>>> be blog blather... (Hint: he mentioned one base that's close to
>>>> the Iran/Iraq border,
>>>> that's been proven to be supplying both arms and men to both the
>>>> insurgency AND the Taliban. Only in your world view would it be
>>>> "fascist" to respond.)
>>>
>>> It would be amusing, were it not so tragic, to see Americans like
>>> Bill Sornson thinking that there is something so terrible about Iran
>>> supplying arms to its neighbour and its coreligionists, while the
>>> USA has invaded that country, thousands of miles away, for no good
>>> reason, causing hundreds of thousands of deaths and many more to
>>> come when they pull out.

>>
>> Iran is violating International Law by aiding and abetting the
>> Taliban. I
>> thought you guys actually CARE what the U.N. says. LOL My bad.
>>
>> Enjoy your ostrichnesshood...
>>
>>

>
> You mean like the UN said (or at least agreed with) that Iraq had
> weapons of mass destruction?


Yes.
 
On Jun 14, 10:01 am, "Bob in CT" <[email protected]> wrote:

> You mean like the UN said (or at least agreed with) that Iraq had weapons
> of mass destruction?


You mean that you don't think our Intelligence is any better?

You don't think that our USE of faulty intelligence is any more
appropriate, honest, and above-board than it was?

You don't think that we are more secure than before 9/11 -- than
before we invaded Iraq?

You don't think we're winning in Iraq?

You don't think we're winning in Afghanistan??

You don't think that we're fighting them over there so that we don't
have to fight them over here?

You don't think that they hate us for our freedom?

Shocked, I am.
 
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 09:40:27 -0700, "Bill Sornson" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Iran is violating International Law by aiding and abetting the Taliban. I
>thought you guys actually CARE what the U.N. says. LOL My bad.


Bill,

What are your sources of news?
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 10:25:43 -0700, "Bill Sornson" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Bob in CT wrote:


>> You mean like the UN said (or at least agreed with) that Iraq had
>> weapons of mass destruction?

>
>Yes.



Bill, what are your sources of news of the world?

--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 08:01:13 -0700, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>What is sad about the whole thing is that the government makes
>decisions without consulting people with expertise about culture,
>history, past, etc. Then they act surprise when there is anti-american
>sentiment. Also, they declare things that if you know anything about
>the culture you know that it is a lie. But, if you are gullible, you
>buy into it. For example, a senior official declared that there is
>evidence that Iran is supplying guns to the Taliban. this is
>borderline absurd. Of course, the senior official is not educated
>enough, nor he cares to understand the differences between Iran and
>the Taliban. They just make a statement and hope the americans who
>love Budwiser would beleive it and that is it. To most Americans,
>Iran, Iraq, the Taliban and afganistan are the same thing. they don't
>give a hoot as to the differences. As long as we can keep drinking bud
>light, who cares what the white house tells us. All we worry about is
>when the government says that we need to bomb Iran, or they'll take
>our miller away.


http://thinkprogress.org/2007/05/26/doug-feiths-arabic-problem/

--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
 
On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 09:40:27 -0700, "Bill Sornson" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Iran is violating International Law by aiding and abetting the Taliban. I
>thought you guys actually CARE what the U.N. says.


Sorni, are you suggesting that because Iran is strongly alledged to be
violating international law they should be bombed? If so, think about
it a little more carefully. That's like looking at some bad-looking
dude who you think did serious crimes in your town and deciding to
kill or torture him and then lock him up indefinitely w/o any sort of
trial. Oh wait, that's the sort of thing you believe in...

OK, think about this -- are you saying that any country that violates
international law should be bombed? What about a country that, say,
has it's agents kidnap people around the world and send them to a
third country to be tortured? What about that?
--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************
 
Another perspective:
======================================================================
Dollar down, time to buy real estate in San Francisco Bay Area
playground of the rich! London, Paris, it's all good!

Published on Wednesday, June 13, 2007 by The Nation Wall Street, Iraq
and the Declining Dollar by Ken Miller

The disastrous impact on the economy of George W. Bush's response to
the attacks of September 2001 is still being measured. On Friday of
last week the Bush Administration announced that it would not
renominate Gen. Peter Pace as chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
The Administration's decision to throw a loyal supporter overboard
avoids a messy confirmation hearing that would have further focused a
war-weary nation's attention on the past. But sometimes looking
backward can help us anticipate the future.

In February of this year, Rep. Henry Waxman's Committee on Oversight
and Government Reform revealed fresh details of how the Coalition
Provisional Authority dumped $12 billion in cash-in $100 bills-into
Iraq in 2004. Multiple flights of huge C-130 transport planes were
required to deliver 363 tons of greenbacks-a modest portion of the
$510 billion we have spent so far in Iraq and Afghanistan. By certain
measures, this may not be America's most expensive war. But the worst
economic effects are yet to come.

No matter how the Iraq War ends, it is clear that the United States is
incapable of militarily securing territory against the wishes of a
hostile population. And the Iraq War is at the heart of two alarming
trends that are likely to have a negative impact on America's position
in the world: The demand for oil is rising while the supply is
declining, and the demand for the US dollar is declining while the
supply of dollars is rising.

In the four years since the toppling of Saddam Hussein, the Iraqi
oilfields and associated infrastructure have sustained 400 attacks.
And because of the situation on the ground, Iraqi oil production, at
1.95 barrels per day during the first quarter of 2007, was far short
of the government's goal of 2.5 million barrels per day and the
previous peak of 3.7 million under Saddam. In this asymmetrical war,
our enemies are spending a fraction of our costs on improvised
explosive devices, chlorine gas and suicide bombers, while we invest
heavily in noneffective weapons systems and force structures.

US oil and gas production peaked in the early '70s, and we are now by
far the world's largest energy importer. The largest oilfields in
Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iran, Syria, Yemen and Oman are in decline, as
are most oilfields in the former Soviet Union, Canada, Central and
South America, and on-shore Africa. New fields will be discovered and
new technologies brought to bear, but costs of production will be
higher than in the past and will require more expensive investments in
equipment and technology.

Even as existing fields age, the new economies of India and China
require more and more oil to fuel their impressive growth. Although a
worldwide depression might result in a temporary drop in the price of
oil and other commodities, the long-term imbalance between growing
demand and declining supply will eventually reassert itself, creating
price increases over time.

Contemporaneously with the supply/demand imbalance in oil and other
hard commodities, the Bush Administration's response to 9/11 has
weakened the position of the dollar in the world. The President's
request that Americans continue to spend has struck an
all-too-sympathetic chord with the American people. The trade
deficits caused by that spending have created a current account
deficit equal to 6.2 percent of GDP, sending trillions of dollars into
the hands of foreigners.

While we continue to import goods of much greater value than those we
export, thus flooding the world with dollars, Bush has pursued a
policy of what some have dubbed "military Keynesianism"-that is, the
combination of low taxes and high military expenditures. This dynamic
forces the Federal Reserve to print money and foster easy credit
policies, which will eventually result in higher interest rates,
inflation or both.

So the printing presses are spewing out more dollars, which are being
collected by China, Japan and others. And those countries are showing
signs of concern that they have too much of their foreign exchange
reserves tied up in our currency. Likewise, certain other nations are
evidencing a declining interest in accepting the dollar as a medium of
exchange. It was in October 2000 that Saddam insisted that Iraq's oil
be paid for in euros. But now Russia wants payment for the energy it
exports in rubles. Venezuela and Iran insist on euros. Kuwait has
recently unpegged its dinar from the dollar in favor of a basket of
currencies.

The dollar has indeed shown symptoms of its decline in popularity
during the Bush years. The dollar has weakened against the euro,
gold, copper and other hard assets and currencies. When Bush came in
to office, for example, you could get .987 euros for every dollar.
Now you can only get .75. You could say that at $65 per barrel, oil
is getting more valuable... or you could say the value of the dollar
has declined as measured by oil.

Mainstream economists seem to agree that best-case, the dollar will
continue a stately decline, but in a world where the United States has
lost so much respect, where we continue to flood the world with
dollars and borrow to finance our consumer habit, we could find that
one of those sharp, depression-inducing discontinuities occurs-like,
say, a run on the dollar.

We are continuing to import 60 percent of the 20.6 million barrels of
oil we use daily. And though the size and stability of our economy is
likely to insure a demand for the dollar at some level, oil that
anyone can buy for hard currency may be getting scarcer. Governments
have begun to do deals aimed at taking oil off the market for their
own account-deals like the ones China has done with Angola, Brazil,
Iran, Nigeria, Venezuela and Sudan. South Korea has just announced it
will follow suit.

If our military cannot secure oil by force, and if oil is destined to
cost us more and more of a declining currency to buy what is
available, then "brand USA" is in trouble. When Bush leaves office,
this country will have to begin the difficult task of reversing some
very bad trends in the military, fiscal, monetary and energy areas.
The pollution of his legacy transcends mere politics.

Ken Miller is chairman and CEO of Ken Miller Capital LLC in New York.

© 2007 The Nation