Re: "Track" vs. "road" pedals (vintage) theory

Discussion in 'Cycling Equipment' started by Tim McNamara, Mar 12, 2005.

  1. Tim McNamara

    Tim McNamara Guest

    Retroed Bob <[email protected]> writes:

    > Why were/are traditional track pedals more of a flat design as
    > opposed to the typical quill design of road pedals ? ( I know there
    > were platform road pedals, but they are less common and typically
    > touring oriented).


    You mean, why doesn't the pedal cage curve around the outside with the
    little pointy bit sticking up? It's for clearance with the track.
    Notice that track pedals are narrower, like road pedals with the
    outside couple of cm sawed off. That's to keep the pedal from
    striking the track, which is often banked to a 43 degree angle.

    The wider road pedal is there to provide support for the feet, since
    track events tend to take only a few minutes but road events can take
    8 hours or more. Track riders usually position their foot with two
    toe straps, so the outer pointy thing isn't needed to help keep the
    foot from slowly creeping to the outside during pedaling.

    Since I have big feet (size 13 US, 12 UK, 48 Euro) I usually found
    road pedals too narrow and used to saw or grind off the little pointy
    bit that stuck up on the outside edge of the pedal. Clipless pedals
    have eliminated this, although those newfangled pedals restrict what
    shoes you can wear while riding. I keep one bike- my commuter- with
    my modififed road pedaals because of that.
     
    Tags:


  2. John Dacey

    John Dacey Guest

    "Nusquam tuta fides." - Vergil
    On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 08:40:39 -0600, Tim McNamara
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >You mean, why doesn't the pedal cage curve around the outside with the
    >little pointy bit sticking up? It's for clearance with the track.
    >Notice that track pedals are narrower, like road pedals with the
    >outside couple of cm sawed off. That's to keep the pedal from
    >striking the track, which is often banked to a 43 degree angle.


    This has been repeated so often over the years that it merits
    consideration for inclusion in Jobst's Fables, I think. I believe that
    if you were to examine a sample of vintage pedal models which had both
    road and track variations (the classic Campagolo 1038 track pedals and
    their 1037 road counterparts come instantly to mind), you'd find that
    the scars left from pedal-strike incidents occur in the pretty much
    the same places. The underside of the dustcaps and the lower outside
    corners of the pedal cages will bear evidence of where the pedals
    first touched down. On road pedals, the protruding loop joining the
    front and rear cages (what's the name for that thing, anyway?)
    generally won't be blemished unless the bike actually crashed on that
    side. Since the pedal bodies are otherwise identical, the outside loop
    on a #1037 road pedal is highly unlikely to have struck the road (or
    velodrome surface) in a situation where a #1038 track pedal did not as
    well.

    This isn't to say that there isn't a reason for road and track pedals
    to exist, though. In the case of the 1037 and 1038 above, there's a
    difference in how the toe strap envelops your shoe as the strap exits
    from the opening in the outer loop of the road pedal versus how your
    foot is held if the strap exits the track pedal body a couple of cm
    inboard.
    -------------------------------
    John Dacey
    Business Cycles, Miami, Florida
    Since 1983
    Comprehensive catalogue of track equipment: online since 1996.
    http://www.businesscycles.com
     
  3. have you experience plywood?
    at 14W, i bought nbar bear traps and bolted ply both sides held by the
    traps teeth.
    comfort. the extra width allows the hips to motion in a more "natural"
    orbit with off course a slight decrease in forward speed.
    the mod takes no more than two hours to hack out.cut four squares.clamp
    together and sabresaw as one. drill ditto.
    and when crossing the 4 wide express blvd in a wide upstream arc
    keep that inside foot up!!
     
  4. Kinky Cowboy

    Kinky Cowboy Guest

    On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 12:19:48 -0500, John Dacey
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >first touched down. On road pedals, the protruding loop joining the
    >front and rear cages (what's the name for that thing, anyway?)
    >-------------------------------
    >John Dacey
    >Business Cycles, Miami, Florida
    >Since 1983
    >Comprehensive catalogue of track equipment: online since 1996.
    >http://www.businesscycles.com



    It's called a quill.


    Kinky Cowboy*

    *Batteries not included
    May contain traces of nuts
    Your milage may vary
     
  5. John Dacey

    John Dacey Guest

    "Ego sum rex Romanus, et supra grammaticam." - Sigismund
    On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 19:13:34 +0000, Kinky Cowboy <[email protected]>
    wrote:

    >On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 12:19:48 -0500, John Dacey wrote:
    >
    >>first touched down. On road pedals, the protruding loop joining the
    >>front and rear cages (what's the name for that thing, anyway?)


    >It's called a quill.


    I'm mindful of the recent controversy here about "rake".

    Over time in cycling, I've seen "quill" colloquially referring to all
    or various parts of pedal cages and also to distinguish track pedals
    from road models. Merriam-Webster online suggests that "quill" more
    properly describes a pedal's axle and bearing housing arrangement than
    the design and shape of the pedal body:

    (2) : a hollow shaft often surrounding another shaft and used in
    various mechanical devices
    http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=quill

    Perhaps one of rbt's Guardians of Proper Usage will provide more
    specifics.


    -------------------------------
    John Dacey
    Business Cycles, Miami, Florida
    http://www.businesscycles.com
    Since 1983
    Our catalog of track equipment: online since 1996
    -------------------------------
     
  6. On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 18:24:59 -0500, John Dacey
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >"Ego sum rex Romanus, et supra grammaticam." - Sigismund
    >On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 19:13:34 +0000, Kinky Cowboy <[email protected]>
    >wrote:
    >
    >>On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 12:19:48 -0500, John Dacey wrote:
    >>
    >>>first touched down. On road pedals, the protruding loop joining the
    >>>front and rear cages (what's the name for that thing, anyway?)

    >
    >>It's called a quill.

    >
    >I'm mindful of the recent controversy here about "rake".
    >
    >Over time in cycling, I've seen "quill" colloquially referring to all
    >or various parts of pedal cages and also to distinguish track pedals
    >from road models. Merriam-Webster online suggests that "quill" more
    >properly describes a pedal's axle and bearing housing arrangement than
    >the design and shape of the pedal body:
    >
    >(2) : a hollow shaft often surrounding another shaft and used in
    >various mechanical devices
    >http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=quill
    >
    >Perhaps one of rbt's Guardians of Proper Usage will provide more
    >specifics.
    >
    >
    >-------------------------------
    >John Dacey
    >Business Cycles, Miami, Florida
    >http://www.businesscycles.com
    >Since 1983
    >Our catalog of track equipment: online since 1996
    >-------------------------------


    Dear John,

    " . . . a hollow shaft . . ."

    If only you had written that with a quill pen.

    Wistfully,

    Carl Fogel
     
  7. John Dacey

    John Dacey Guest

    On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 16:43:31 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

    >On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 18:24:59 -0500, John Dacey wrote:
    >>Perhaps one of rbt's Guardians of Proper Usage will provide more
    >>specifics.


    >Dear John,
    >
    >" . . . a hollow shaft . . ."
    >
    >If only you had written that with a quill pen.


    You guys impose too many conditions. It's easier to just remain
    ignorant.

    -------------------------------
    John Dacey
    Business Cycles, Miami, Florida
    http://www.businesscycles.com
    Since 1983
    Our catalog of track equipment: online since 1996
    -------------------------------
     
  8. On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 19:05:18 -0500, John Dacey
    <[email protected]> wrote:

    >On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 16:43:31 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
    >
    >>On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 18:24:59 -0500, John Dacey wrote:
    >>>Perhaps one of rbt's Guardians of Proper Usage will provide more
    >>>specifics.

    >
    >>Dear John,
    >>
    >>" . . . a hollow shaft . . ."
    >>
    >>If only you had written that with a quill pen.

    >
    >You guys impose too many conditions. It's easier to just remain
    >ignorant.
    >
    >-------------------------------
    >John Dacey
    >Business Cycles, Miami, Florida
    >http://www.businesscycles.com
    >Since 1983
    >Our catalog of track equipment: online since 1996
    >-------------------------------


    Dear John,

    GOOSE, n. A bird that supplies quills for writing. These,
    by some occult process of nature, are penetrated and
    suffused with various degrees of the bird's intellectual
    energies and emotional character, so that when inked and
    drawn mechanically across paper by a person called an
    "author," there results a very fair and accurate transcript
    of the fowl's thought and feeling. The difference in geese,
    as discovered by this ingenious method, is considerable:
    many are found to have only trivial and insignificant
    powers, but some are seen to be very great geese indeed.

    --Bierce

    Carl Fogel
     
  9. John Dacey

    John Dacey Guest

    On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 18:22:53 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

    >>>On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 18:24:59 -0500, John Dacey wrote:
    >>>>Perhaps one of rbt's Guardians of Proper Usage will provide more
    >>>>specifics.


    >>>If only you had written that with a quill pen.

    >>
    >>You guys impose too many conditions. It's easier to just remain
    >>ignorant.


    >Dear John,
    >
    >GOOSE, n. A bird that supplies quills for writing. These,
    >by some occult process of nature, are penetrated and
    >suffused with various degrees of the bird's intellectual
    >energies and emotional character, so that when inked and
    >drawn mechanically across paper by a person called an
    >"author," there results a very fair and accurate transcript
    >of the fowl's thought and feeling. The difference in geese,
    >as discovered by this ingenious method, is considerable:
    >many are found to have only trivial and insignificant
    >powers, but some are seen to be very great geese indeed.
    >
    >--Bierce


    Ah, I see now. No doubt this is the origin of the expression, "like
    script through a goose".


    -------------------------------
    John Dacey
    Business Cycles, Miami, Florida
    http://www.businesscycles.com
    Since 1983
    Our catalog of track equipment: online since 1996
    -------------------------------
     
  10. 41

    41 Guest

    Retroed Bob wrote:

    > That's sort of my problem too... I have size 10's and I like to ride
    > in sneakers a lot of the time (I know, barbaric, but I can hop off

    the
    > bike and be in comfortable footwear... it works for me depending on
    > where I am riding too). Anyway, I find that most road pedals are too
    > narrow. The quill on the end gets in the way. I never considered
    > grinding it off. There are a couple of vintage (platform) and more
    > modern pedals (triangular a la early Shimano dura ace or 600) that
    > do not have this issue).


    http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/webalog/pedals_clips_straps/14020.htmlh
     
  11. In article <[email protected]>,
    "41" <[email protected]> wrote:

    > Retroed Bob wrote:
    >
    > > That's sort of my problem too... I have size 10's and I like to ride
    > > in sneakers a lot of the time (I know, barbaric, but I can hop off

    > the
    > > bike and be in comfortable footwear... it works for me depending on
    > > where I am riding too). Anyway, I find that most road pedals are too
    > > narrow. The quill on the end gets in the way. I never considered
    > > grinding it off. There are a couple of vintage (platform) and more
    > > modern pedals (triangular a la early Shimano dura ace or 600) that
    > > do not have this issue).

    >
    > http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/webalog/pedals_clips_straps/14020.html


    For sneaker wear, I'd recommend looking at the MKS Platform pedals as
    well:

    <http://www.rivbike.com/webalog/pedals_clips_straps/14030.html>

    I have EEEE-width feet, and these work fine for me for my regular
    commuter.

    Drew

    --
    Drew W. Saunders

    dru (at) stanford (dot) eee dee you
     
  12. On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 08:40:39 -0600, Tim McNamara wrote:

    > Retroed Bob <[email protected]> writes:
    >
    >> Why were/are traditional track pedals more of a flat design as
    >> opposed to the typical quill design of road pedals ? ( I know there
    >> were platform road pedals, but they are less common and typically
    >> touring oriented).

    >
    > You mean, why doesn't the pedal cage curve around the outside with the
    > little pointy bit sticking up? It's for clearance with the track.


    But, but, the little pointy bit is sticking up, not down. Clearance is
    not improved by leaving it off.

    > Notice that track pedals are narrower, like road pedals with the outside
    > couple of cm sawed off.


    No, at least my old Campy road pedals are the same width as my track
    pedals. I just compared them. The only difference is the pointy bits,
    which as I mentioned point upward, away from the road or track. Also, the
    threaded part of the spindle is longer on the road pedal for some reason,
    but the distance from the crank surface to the dustcap is identical.

    I don't think your explanation really holds water here. Why does the road
    pedal have that curly bit? It has a slot to thread the toestrap through,
    which helps hold the toestrap in place, but you'd think the need for that
    would be the same on both types of pedal. And also, if the curly part
    somehow provided more support for the shoe, you'd think that need would be
    as great or greater for a track pedal. You may spend less time on a track
    bike, but you are stressing everything, including your feet, more. The
    double toestrap thing is also not right -- I used double toestraps for
    road and the track, as did lots of folks.

    My guess is that track pedals were simply an older design. The pointy
    thing was something added later, and trackies preferred the traditional
    style.

    --

    David L. Johnson

    __o | When you are up to your ass in alligators, it's hard to remember
    _`\(,_ | that your initial objective was to drain the swamp. -- LBJ
    (_)/ (_) |
     
  13. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    >>Retroed Bob <[email protected]> writes:
    >>>Why were/are traditional track pedals more of a flat design as
    >>>opposed to the typical quill design of road pedals ? ( I know there
    >>>were platform road pedals, but they are less common and typically
    >>>touring oriented).


    > On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 08:40:39 -0600, Tim McNamara wrote:
    >>You mean, why doesn't the pedal cage curve around the outside with the
    >>little pointy bit sticking up? It's for clearance with the track.


    >>Notice that track pedals are narrower, like road pedals with the outside
    >>couple of cm sawed off.


    The observant David L. Johnson wrote:
    > But, but, the little pointy bit is sticking up, not down. Clearance is
    > not improved by leaving it off.


    > No, at least my old Campy road pedals are the same width as my track
    > pedals. I just compared them. The only difference is the pointy bits,
    > which as I mentioned point upward, away from the road or track. Also, the
    > threaded part of the spindle is longer on the road pedal for some reason,
    > but the distance from the crank surface to the dustcap is identical.
    >
    > I don't think your explanation really holds water here. Why does the road
    > pedal have that curly bit? It has a slot to thread the toestrap through,
    > which helps hold the toestrap in place, but you'd think the need for that
    > would be the same on both types of pedal. And also, if the curly part
    > somehow provided more support for the shoe, you'd think that need would be
    > as great or greater for a track pedal. You may spend less time on a track
    > bike, but you are stressing everything, including your feet, more. The
    > double toestrap thing is also not right -- I used double toestraps for
    > road and the track, as did lots of folks.
    >
    > My guess is that track pedals were simply an older design. The pointy
    > thing was something added later, and trackies preferred the traditional
    > style.


    I'm inclined to go with David here as I've never heard any
    other logical explanation. Many tortuous arguments, just
    none that made any sense.

    If you mean the actual threads are shorter, that was once
    the 8mm length for steel cranks, pedals for aluminum cranks
    having 12mm of thread. In those days many utility pedals
    also came in men's (wide) and ladies' (narrow) versions of
    each model.

    --
    Andrew Muzi
    www.yellowjersey.org
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971
     
  14. On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 01:02:01 -0600, A Muzi wrote:

    > If you mean the actual threads are shorter,


    yes

    > that was once
    > the 8mm length for steel cranks, pedals for aluminum cranks
    > having 12mm of thread.


    That's about the difference, but both originally came on aluminum cranks.
    The track pedals were older, originally bought (not by me) in about 1965,
    while the road pedals were from 1970. Oddly, I think the track cranks are
    thicker than the road ones, but didn't check to be sure.

    --

    David L. Johnson

    __o | Arguing with an engineer is like mud wrestling with a pig... You
    _`\(,_ | soon find out the pig likes it!
    (_)/ (_) |
     
  15. A Muzi <[email protected]> writes:

    >The observant David L. Johnson wrote:
    >> But, but, the little pointy bit is sticking up, not down. Clearance is
    >> not improved by leaving it off.


    >> My guess is that track pedals were simply an older design. The pointy
    >> thing was something added later, and trackies preferred the traditional
    >> style.


    >I'm inclined to go with David here as I've never heard any
    >other logical explanation. Many tortuous arguments, just
    >none that made any sense.


    I'm guessing that road pedals have the foot-barb for the following
    reason. During a sharp lean on a road pedal, you can potentially have
    a "foot strike" where the side of your foot is abraded by the road.
    By installing the foot-barb on the road pedals, riders are sure to
    keep their feet inwards of the barb, to avoid getting their shoe
    skewered (I have many sized 11 converse all-star shoes with holes in
    them from my old raleigh grand prix.) The foot-barb ensures that a
    rider's foot will not hit the ground before the pedal in a "foot
    strike."

    Similarly, when riding next to cliffs, the foot-barb ensures that
    rocky outcroppings will hit the barb before they hit your foot.

    Track racers always use toe clips which keep their feet inwards and so
    there is no need for a foot-guard on the outside of a track pedal.

    - Don Gillies
    San Diego, CA
     
  16. A Muzi

    A Muzi Guest

    >>The observant David L. Johnson wrote:
    >>>But, but, the little pointy bit is sticking up, not down. Clearance is
    >>>not improved by leaving it off.
    >>>My guess is that track pedals were simply an older design. The pointy
    >>>thing was something added later, and trackies preferred the traditional
    >>>style.


    > A Muzi <[email protected]> writes:
    >>I'm inclined to go with David here as I've never heard any
    >>other logical explanation. Many tortuous arguments, just
    >>none that made any sense.


    Donald Gillies wrote:
    > I'm guessing that road pedals have the foot-barb for the following
    > reason. During a sharp lean on a road pedal, you can potentially have
    > a "foot strike" where the side of your foot is abraded by the road.
    > By installing the foot-barb on the road pedals, riders are sure to
    > keep their feet inwards of the barb, to avoid getting their shoe
    > skewered (I have many sized 11 converse all-star shoes with holes in
    > them from my old raleigh grand prix.) The foot-barb ensures that a
    > rider's foot will not hit the ground before the pedal in a "foot
    > strike."
    >
    > Similarly, when riding next to cliffs, the foot-barb ensures that
    > rocky outcroppings will hit the barb before they hit your foot.
    >
    > Track racers always use toe clips which keep their feet inwards and so
    > there is no need for a foot-guard on the outside of a track pedal.



    I don't think that clarifies.

    Why no turned up edge on track pedals again?

    I don't believe the toeclips are different. Road
    (asymmetric, toeclip-specific like 1037) quill type pedals
    are not at all comfortable to ride without toeclips as one
    randomly ends up on the wrong side from time to time.
    Common LBS 'house rules' proscribe road pedals without clips
    (I know several besides mine) So since both styles are used
    with toeclips what's the advantage of _not_ adding the
    outside piece?

    If your shoes were pierced by that turned up bit of pedal
    cage, how exactly did it "ensure that a
    rider's foot will not hit the ground before the pedal". ?
    And then what's different <<sur piste>>?

    I can't ride "next to cliffs" in my neighborhood so I'm
    ignoring that argument except to repeat one word of my
    earlier comment.

    tortuous.

    --
    Andrew Muzi
    www.yellowjersey.org
    Open every day since 1 April, 1971
     
  17. Quoting Drew Saunders <[email protected]>:
    >For sneaker wear, I'd recommend looking at the MKS Platform pedals as
    >well:
    ><http://www.rivbike.com/webalog/pedals_clips_straps/14030.html>


    Second the motion; the MKS GR-9 is the nicest pedal I have ever used for
    cycling in normal shoes.
    --
    David Damerell <[email protected]> Kill the tomato!
    Today is First Brieday, March.
     
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