Re: Tubular rim glue ???



<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Just found a new article on tubular tire adhesives, this time including
> carbon rims.
>
> http://www.engr.ku.edu/~ktl/bicycle/bicycle.html
>
> It's part 7 in the series by Howat and Jones.
> "Howat: Tubular Tires: Tubular Tire Adhesion to Carbon Fiber Rims.
> (Part 7)"
>


Dianne,

Thank you for posting this link. I'm new to tubulars and it answered many
questions. The way my LBS is mounting tubular tires, he's probably going to
end up getting someone seriously hurt and getting himself sued. (According
to him, slap a little glue on the rim and the tire, mount it up and in 20
minutes you're good to go.)

I posted this link over at Slowtwitch.com forum (caters to triathletes).
I've had many replies thanking me for posting it. So I thought I ought to
thank you for posting it.

Bob C.
 
Bob C? writes:

>> Just found a new article on tubular tire adhesives, this time including
>> carbon rims.


>> http://www.engr.ku.edu/~ktl/bicycle/bicycle.html


>> It's part 7 in the series by Howat and Jones. "Howat: Tubular
>> Tires: Tubular Tire Adhesion to Carbon Fiber Rims. (Part 7)"


> Thank you for posting this link. I'm new to tubulars and it
> answered many questions. The way my LBS is mounting tubular tires,
> he's probably going to end up getting someone seriously hurt and
> getting himself sued. (According to him, slap a little glue on the
> rim and the tire, mount it up and in 20 minutes you're good to go.)


That may not be as bad as it sounds. The volatile solvent in these
glues will escape in a reasonable time although soft (un-gelled) glue
is displaced easily from the interface. Constriction force on the rim
is the main holding force for a fully inflated tubular tire. Glue is
necessary to keep the tire from creeping circumferentially when
braking or just from rolling on the road as cookie dough does if you
push the rolling pin in only one direction.

> I posted this link over at Slowtwitch.com forum (caters to
> triathletes). I've had many replies thanking me for posting it. So
> I thought I ought to thank you for posting it.


If you ride tubulars in mountains with hard braking descents, you will
run into a more serious failing, that of melting glue. Since I ride
mostly on that sort of terrain, I had serious problems with that from
my earliest rides on tubulars. I'm glad I'm rid of that problem now,
although tire heating (blow-off) is still a threat for clinchers on
some steep descents.

http://tinyurl.com/c543

Jobst Brandt
[email protected]
 
[email protected] wrote:
> Bob C? writes:


> > Thank you for posting this link. I'm new to tubulars and it
> > answered many questions. The way my LBS is mounting tubular tires,
> > he's probably going to end up getting someone seriously hurt and
> > getting himself sued. (According to him, slap a little glue on the
> > rim and the tire, mount it up and in 20 minutes you're good to go.)

>
> That may not be as bad as it sounds. The volatile solvent in these
> glues will escape in a reasonable time although soft (un-gelled) glue
> is displaced easily from the interface. Constriction force on the

rim
> is the main holding force for a fully inflated tubular tire. Glue is
> necessary to keep the tire from creeping circumferentially when
> braking or just from rolling on the road as cookie dough does if you
> push the rolling pin in only one direction.


According to the testing in one of the earlier reports, the top two
brands reached about 80% of their ultimate strength after an hour,
which means that they were better after an hour than many of the other
glues ever got.

> > I posted this link over at Slowtwitch.com forum (caters to
> > triathletes). I've had many replies thanking me for posting it.

So
> > I thought I ought to thank you for posting it.

>
> If you ride tubulars in mountains with hard braking descents, you

will
> run into a more serious failing, that of melting glue. Since I ride
> mostly on that sort of terrain, I had serious problems with that from
> my earliest rides on tubulars. I'm glad I'm rid of that problem now,
> although tire heating (blow-off) is still a threat for clinchers on
> some steep descents.


Also in one of the earlier reports, there was testing of bond strength
when the rim was heated. According to the report the top glue retained
60% of its strength when the rim got hot, and was stronger than some of
the other glues when they were cold. It is likely, though, that even
the best glue was not of this quality when you were still riding
tubulars.

JP

_George is the engineer_
 
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] wrote:
>> Bob C? writes:

>
>> > Thank you for posting this link. I'm new to tubulars and it
>> > answered many questions. The way my LBS is mounting tubular tires,
>> > he's probably going to end up getting someone seriously hurt and
>> > getting himself sued. (According to him, slap a little glue on the
>> > rim and the tire, mount it up and in 20 minutes you're good to go.)

>>
>> That may not be as bad as it sounds. The volatile solvent in these
>> glues will escape in a reasonable time although soft (un-gelled) glue
>> is displaced easily from the interface. Constriction force on the

> rim
>> is the main holding force for a fully inflated tubular tire. Glue is
>> necessary to keep the tire from creeping circumferentially when
>> braking or just from rolling on the road as cookie dough does if you
>> push the rolling pin in only one direction.

>
> According to the testing in one of the earlier reports, the top two
> brands reached about 80% of their ultimate strength after an hour,
> which means that they were better after an hour than many of the other
> glues ever got.
>
>> > I posted this link over at Slowtwitch.com forum (caters to
>> > triathletes). I've had many replies thanking me for posting it.

> So
>> > I thought I ought to thank you for posting it.

>>
>> If you ride tubulars in mountains with hard braking descents, you

> will
>> run into a more serious failing, that of melting glue. Since I ride
>> mostly on that sort of terrain, I had serious problems with that from
>> my earliest rides on tubulars. I'm glad I'm rid of that problem now,
>> although tire heating (blow-off) is still a threat for clinchers on
>> some steep descents.

>
> Also in one of the earlier reports, there was testing of bond strength
> when the rim was heated. According to the report the top glue retained
> 60% of its strength when the rim got hot, and was stronger than some of
> the other glues when they were cold. It is likely, though, that even
> the best glue was not of this quality when you were still riding
> tubulars.
>
> JP
>
> _George is the engineer_


Good points JP. If you go with the Mastik One, you're probably covering for
lots of potential problems.

Bob C.
 
<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Bob C? writes:
>
>>> Just found a new article on tubular tire adhesives, this time including
>>> carbon rims.

>
>>> http://www.engr.ku.edu/~ktl/bicycle/bicycle.html

>
>>> It's part 7 in the series by Howat and Jones. "Howat: Tubular
>>> Tires: Tubular Tire Adhesion to Carbon Fiber Rims. (Part 7)"

>
>> Thank you for posting this link. I'm new to tubulars and it
>> answered many questions. The way my LBS is mounting tubular tires,
>> he's probably going to end up getting someone seriously hurt and
>> getting himself sued. (According to him, slap a little glue on the
>> rim and the tire, mount it up and in 20 minutes you're good to go.)

>
> That may not be as bad as it sounds. The volatile solvent in these
> glues will escape in a reasonable time although soft (un-gelled) glue
> is displaced easily from the interface. Constriction force on the rim
> is the main holding force for a fully inflated tubular tire. Glue is
> necessary to keep the tire from creeping circumferentially when
> braking or just from rolling on the road as cookie dough does if you
> push the rolling pin in only one direction.
>
>> I posted this link over at Slowtwitch.com forum (caters to
>> triathletes). I've had many replies thanking me for posting it. So
>> I thought I ought to thank you for posting it.

>
> If you ride tubulars in mountains with hard braking descents, you will
> run into a more serious failing, that of melting glue. Since I ride
> mostly on that sort of terrain, I had serious problems with that from
> my earliest rides on tubulars. I'm glad I'm rid of that problem now,
> although tire heating (blow-off) is still a threat for clinchers on
> some steep descents.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/c543
>
> Jobst Brandt
> [email protected]
>


Jobst,

I'm glad you chimed in here to lend some practical perspective. I'm about
to get my first tubular wheel, though I've ridden on a friends borrowed
tubular wheels a good bit. That's why this thread caught my attention.

You said, "Since I ride mostly on that sort of terrain (mountainous), I had
serious problems with that (tubular adhesion) from my earliest rides on
tubulars." That reminded me of some of my first adventure into the
mountains around here back a dozen years ago. I remember finishing up a
ride and wondering what all the gray powder was all over the back half of my
bike. Came to realize it was tiny bits of rubber brake shoe dust. I was a
very reluctant descender at first. I still am, but not nearly that bad
anymore.
--
Bob C.

"Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding that it hurts."
T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia)
 
On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 09:27:22 -0500, psycholist wrote:

> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Just found a new article on tubular tire adhesives, this time including
>> carbon rims.
>>
>> http://www.engr.ku.edu/~ktl/bicycle/bicycle.html
>>
>> It's part 7 in the series by Howat and Jones.
>> "Howat: Tubular Tires: Tubular Tire Adhesion to Carbon Fiber Rims.
>> (Part 7)"


Seven "parts" on how to glue tires? Can you say obsessive?

> questions. The way my LBS is mounting tubular tires, he's probably going to
> end up getting someone seriously hurt and getting himself sued. (According
> to him, slap a little glue on the rim and the tire, mount it up and in 20
> minutes you're good to go.)


For one thing, your bike shop should not be mounting tires, you should be.
It's your butt on the line, anyway. You decide how much glue to use.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | It is a scientifically proven fact that a mid life crisis can
_`\(,_ | only be cured by something racy and Italian. Bianchis and
(_)/ (_) | Colnagos are a lot cheaper than Maserattis and Ferraris. --
Glenn Davies
 
On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 13:48:27 -0800, SocSecTrainWreck wrote:

> Also in one of the earlier reports, there was testing of bond strength
> when the rim was heated. According to the report the top glue retained
> 60% of its strength when the rim got hot, and was stronger than some of
> the other glues when they were cold. It is likely, though, that even
> the best glue was not of this quality when you were still riding
> tubulars.


So, you think the glues are better now than they were when many more
people were using tubular tires? Since one of the best glues is actually
meant for sticking door trim on cars, maybe you should re-think that.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | And what if you track down these men and kill them, what if you
_`\(,_ | killed all of us? From every corner of Europe, hundreds,
(_)/ (_) | thousands would rise up to take our places. Even Nazis can't
kill that fast. -- Paul Henreid (Casablanca).
 
David L. Johnson wrote:
> On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 13:48:27 -0800, SocSecTrainWreck wrote:
>
> > Also in one of the earlier reports, there was testing of bond

strength
> > when the rim was heated. According to the report the top glue

retained
> > 60% of its strength when the rim got hot, and was stronger than

some of
> > the other glues when they were cold. It is likely, though, that

even
> > the best glue was not of this quality when you were still riding
> > tubulars.

>
> So, you think the glues are better now than they were when many more
> people were using tubular tires? Since one of the best glues is

actually
> meant for sticking door trim on cars, maybe you should re-think that.


Hmmm, let's see: logic would suggest that despite people largely giving
up on tubulars, glues wouldn't have gotten any worse, so they could
only get better or stay the same. I think Jobst gave up on tubulars in
the early 70s; it is extremely unimaginative to assume that in thirty
years there have been no advances in adhesives that could be applied to
gluing tubulars. Maybe you should go read the report yourself. FastTack
tests mediocre at best. I'll even go further: when I first heard of
using FastTack, about 1980, maybe it _was_ the best thing available.
JP

_George is the engineer_
 
psycholist wrote:

> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Just found a new article on tubular tire adhesives, this time including
>>carbon rims.
>>
>>http://www.engr.ku.edu/~ktl/bicycle/bicycle.html
>>
>>It's part 7 in the series by Howat and Jones.
>>"Howat: Tubular Tires: Tubular Tire Adhesion to Carbon Fiber Rims.
>>(Part 7)"
>>

>
>
> Dianne,
>
> Thank you for posting this link. I'm new to tubulars and it answered many
> questions. The way my LBS is mounting tubular tires, he's probably going to
> end up getting someone seriously hurt and getting himself sued. (According
> to him, slap a little glue on the rim and the tire, mount it up and in 20
> minutes you're good to go.)...


A certain service oriented, bike shop owner who is a rec.bicycles.tech
regular apparently mounts tubular tires successfully within this
timeframe <http://www.yellowjersey.org/frontwheel.html>.

--
Tom Sherman - Earth
 
On Tue, 01 Feb 2005 17:13:05 -0800, SocSecTrainWreck wrote:

>> So, you think the glues are better now than they were when many more
>> people were using tubular tires? Since one of the best glues is

> actually
>> meant for sticking door trim on cars, maybe you should re-think that.

>
> Hmmm, let's see: logic would suggest that despite people largely giving
> up on tubulars, glues wouldn't have gotten any worse,


Maybe the best ones are no longer made.

> so they could
> only get better or stay the same. I think Jobst gave up on tubulars in
> the early 70s; it is extremely unimaginative to assume that in thirty
> years there have been no advances in adhesives that could be applied to
> gluing tubulars.


Could be, maybe, but we had Tubasti and Clement glue back then, which were
still available, with seemingly the same properties, in the 90s.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | A mathematician is a machine for turning coffee into theorems.
_`\(,_ | -- Paul Erdos
(_)/ (_) |
 
JP writes anonymously:

> Hmmm, let's see: logic would suggest that despite people largely
> giving up on tubulars, glues wouldn't have gotten any worse, so they
> could only get better or stay the same. I think Jobst gave up on
> tubulars in the early 70s; it is extremely unimaginative to assume
> that in thirty years there have been no advances in adhesives that
> could be applied to gluing tubulars. Maybe you should go read the
> report yourself. FastTack tests mediocre at best. I'll even go
> further: when I first heard of using FastTack, about 1980, maybe it
> _was_ the best thing available.


Stop Hmmming and give it some thought. Tubular track glue was as good
as it gets and is still the same. Tubular road glue must meet the
same criteria it did 50 years ago, that of being tacky enough to
adhere to a tire when putting on a spare and be rigid and adhesive
enough to keep a tire from creeping. These two requirements have not
changed and that such adhesives are temperature sensitive has also
remained constant. Instead of hypothesizing, how about speaking from
experience and results.

If the glue remains tacky, it will liquefy at about the temperature
that blows off clinchers but the trouble is it gets uselessly soft
long before that and allows the tire to creep around the rim to pile
up against the valve stem and ultimately explode. Turning the front
wheel around so the tire will creep back to normal position does not
work well because the farther down the hill one gets the sooner the
tire moves.

Tubulars are a pain in the butt. Most people who rode in those times
when tubulars were all that was available were only too glad to see
them go.

Jobst Brandt
[email protected]
 
Jobst Brandt wrote:

> JP writes anonymously:
>
>
>>Hmmm, let's see: logic would suggest that despite people largely
>>giving up on tubulars, glues wouldn't have gotten any worse, so they
>>could only get better or stay the same. I think Jobst gave up on
>>tubulars in the early 70s; it is extremely unimaginative to assume
>>that in thirty years there have been no advances in adhesives that
>>could be applied to gluing tubulars. Maybe you should go read the
>>report yourself. FastTack tests mediocre at best. I'll even go
>>further: when I first heard of using FastTack, about 1980, maybe it
>>_was_ the best thing available.

>
>
> Stop Hmmming and give it some thought. Tubular track glue was as good
> as it gets and is still the same. Tubular road glue must meet the
> same criteria it did 50 years ago, that of being tacky enough to
> adhere to a tire when putting on a spare and be rigid and adhesive
> enough to keep a tire from creeping. These two requirements have not
> changed and that such adhesives are temperature sensitive has also
> remained constant. Instead of hypothesizing, how about speaking from
> experience and results.
>
> If the glue remains tacky, it will liquefy at about the temperature
> that blows off clinchers but the trouble is it gets uselessly soft
> long before that and allows the tire to creep around the rim to pile
> up against the valve stem and ultimately explode. Turning the front
> wheel around so the tire will creep back to normal position does not
> work well because the farther down the hill one gets the sooner the
> tire moves.


Would it be possible to make a less temperature sensitive glue? I know
next to nothing about tubular cement, but it is possible to modify
asphaltic cement so that it changes viscosity less with temperature change.

> Tubulars are a pain in the butt. Most people who rode in those times
> when tubulars were all that was available were only too glad to see
> them go.


At the time tubular tires were predominant, I was riding an upright,
front wheel drive, fixed gear, moving bottom bracket delta trike with
non-pneumatic tires. ;)

--
Tom Sherman - Earth
 
On Tue, 1 Feb 2005 09:27:22 -0500, "psycholist" <[email protected]>
wrote:

><[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> Just found a new article on tubular tire adhesives, this time including
>> carbon rims.
>>
>> http://www.engr.ku.edu/~ktl/bicycle/bicycle.html
>>
>> It's part 7 in the series by Howat and Jones.
>> "Howat: Tubular Tires: Tubular Tire Adhesion to Carbon Fiber Rims.
>> (Part 7)"
>>

>
>Dianne,
>
>Thank you for posting this link. I'm new to tubulars and it answered many
>questions. The way my LBS is mounting tubular tires, he's probably going to
>end up getting someone seriously hurt and getting himself sued. (According
>to him, slap a little glue on the rim and the tire, mount it up and in 20
>minutes you're good to go.)
>
>I posted this link over at Slowtwitch.com forum (caters to triathletes).
>I've had many replies thanking me for posting it. So I thought I ought to
>thank you for posting it.
>
>Bob C.


Thanks Bob! Glad you found it useful.
 
>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Just found a new article on tubular tire adhesives, this time including
>>> carbon rims.
>>> http://www.engr.ku.edu/~ktl/bicycle/bicycle.html
>>> It's part 7 in the series by Howat and Jones.
>>> "Howat: Tubular Tires: Tubular Tire Adhesion to Carbon Fiber Rims.
>>> (Part 7)"


>> psycholist wrote:
>> Thank you for posting this link. I'm new to tubulars and it answered
>> many questions. The way my LBS is mounting tubular tires, he's
>> probably going to end up getting someone seriously hurt and getting
>> himself sued. (According to him, slap a little glue on the rim and
>> the tire, mount it up and in 20 minutes you're good to go.)...


Tom Sherman wrote:
> A certain service oriented, bike shop owner who is a rec.bicycles.tech
> regular apparently mounts tubular tires successfully within this
> timeframe <http://www.yellowjersey.org/frontwheel.html>.





Like anything else it can be done well or badly.

The most common error I see is a tire laid over excessive
amounts of glue that's still wet. Messy blobs of displaced
glue flow out from under the edge of the tire.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
 
Tom Sherman writes:

> Would it be possible to make a less temperature sensitive glue?
> I know next to nothing about tubular cement, but it is possible to
> modify asphaltic cement so that it changes viscosity less with
> temperature change.


The two characteristics go against each other. Pressure sensitive
glues (postage stamps) are not temperature stable and, if not covered
with a protective layer impervious to volatile components, will lose
tackiness altogether. For that reason postage stamps and the like are
stored on impervious plastic film coated paper and REMA patches use
metal foil cover.

>> Tubulars are a pain in the butt. Most people who rode in the times
>> when tubulars were all that was available were only too glad to see
>> them go.


> At the time tubular tires were predominant, I was riding an upright,
> front wheel drive, fixed gear, moving bottom bracket delta trike
> with non-pneumatic tires.


I guess you no longer use those as nearly everyone with tubulars does
today. Tubulars have some redeeming values of which we hear too
often. In contrast, airless tires don't have many positive aspects
when compared to pneumatic tires.

Jobst Brandt
[email protected]
 
Jobst Brandt wrote:

> Tom Sherman writes:
> ...
>>>Tubulars are a pain in the butt. Most people who rode in the times
>>>when tubulars were all that was available were only too glad to see
>>>them go.

>
>
>>At the time tubular tires were predominant, I was riding an upright,
>>front wheel drive, fixed gear, moving bottom bracket delta trike
>>with non-pneumatic tires.

>
>
> I guess you no longer use those as nearly everyone with tubulars does
> today. Tubulars have some redeeming values of which we hear too
> often. In contrast, airless tires don't have many positive aspects
> when compared to pneumatic tires.


The trike with non-pneumatic tires looked a lot like this, except it was
reddish-orange:
<http://www.dragons.co.za/images/giant/Products/Tricycle.jpg>. I freely
admit to having had a poor understanding of tire technical issues at the
age of 3 years. :)

My current trike has pneumatic tires, and is slightly more sophisticated
in other ways: <http://www.ihpva.org/incoming/2002/Dragonflyer/df1a.jpg>.

--
Tom Sherman - Earth
 
Clinchers are for Nancys

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"
 
[email protected] wrote:
> JP writes anonymously:
>
> > Hmmm, let's see: logic would suggest that despite people largely
> > giving up on tubulars, glues wouldn't have gotten any worse, so

they
> > could only get better or stay the same. I think Jobst gave up on
> > tubulars in the early 70s; it is extremely unimaginative to assume
> > that in thirty years there have been no advances in adhesives that
> > could be applied to gluing tubulars. Maybe you should go read the
> > report yourself. FastTack tests mediocre at best. I'll even go
> > further: when I first heard of using FastTack, about 1980, maybe it
> > _was_ the best thing available.

>
> Stop Hmmming and give it some thought. Tubular track glue was as

good
> as it gets and is still the same.


No one was talking about track glue. It is utterly irrelevant to this
discussion.

> Tubular road glue must meet the
> same criteria it did 50 years ago, that of being tacky enough to
> adhere to a tire when putting on a spare and be rigid and adhesive
> enough to keep a tire from creeping. These two requirements have not
> changed and that such adhesives are temperature sensitive has also
> remained constant. Instead of hypothesizing, how about speaking from
> experience and results.


I'm not hypothesizing in my fundamental statement of fact: that
according to the published experimental data, there is at least one
road glue that is as good or better on a rim heated by braking than
many glues are at normal temperature. Whether that glue existed in its
present form at the time you were using tubulars is subject _only_ to
hypothesizing (unless you happen to have a thirty year old tube of it
that you would be willing to test against the current formula), and the
two possible hypotheses are: (1) it did not exist in its current form,
and that is the reason for your negative experience with tubular glues
under alpine conditions. (2) It did exist then, you don't know what you
are talking about, and have been spreading BS about tubular glues and
rim heating for thirty years as a result of your inadequate experience
with tubular glues. Since I don't think you are an idiot, I have gone
with hypothesis #1; however, if you insist that glues have not changed
and yet we have experimental evidence that there is one glue that
retains more than adequate strength under extended downhill braking, we
may have to reconsider. One thing of which there is no doubt: your
experience with softening glue is either wrong, dated or simply too
limited.

My second hypothesis is that FastTack may have been the best glue 25
years ago. We have experimental data that shows it to be only mediocre
now. While it would not be the first time that "common knowledge" of
cycling technology turned out to be nothing but superstition, I am
giving all of us who used FastTack the benefit of the doubt and
suggesting that it may have had an advantage at some point. That would
also indirectly support the earlier hypothesis #1 that glues have
indeed improved over the course of thirty years.

In summary, as I said, glues would not get worse, they would stay the
same or get better. There is at least indirect evidence that they might
have improved; there is strong direct evidence that with the right glue
selection rim heating need not be a major concern (at least on alloy
rims). Certainly, adhesives technology in general has had huge advances
in thirty years- I just don't understand why anyone would feel the need
to insist that tubular glues could not have improved the modest amount
needed to show the experimental results noted.


JP
 
David L. Johnson wrote:
>
> Could be, maybe, but we had Tubasti and Clement glue back then, which

were
> still available, with seemingly the same properties, in the 90s.


You really should go read the report:

http://www.engr.ku.edu/~ktl/bicycle/Part6.pdf

Clement glue, ranks a "terrible" when compared to the best in terms of
temperature response- it loses about 80% of its strength; Vittoria
Mastik retains 65% of its strength, which was higher to start with.

Clement works better (but not as good as Vittoria Mastik or
Continental) at normal temperature so it probably takes the prize for
worst degradation; at 60oC Vittoria is stronger than Fast Tack, Wolber
or Pana Cement at 27o. Continental is probably still adequate at 60o.
JP