Re: Unsafe at any speed?-Path beside Beach Rd



On May 1, 5:38 am, Zebee Johnstone <[email protected]> wrote:
> In aus.bicycle on Tue, 01 May 2007 01:40:08 +1000
>
> Terryc <[email protected]> wrote:
> > TimC wrote:

>
> >> I could swear last time I saw her, her seat height was further down
> >> than I set it for her.

>
> > Err, have you taught her how to stop properly.
> > No 1 reason for seat being too low.

>
> Except peace of mind really. I can see how someone might want to feel
> they can just put their feet down without having to lean over or get
> off the saddle.
>
> Sure - low seats are not good for pedalling, but how many prefer peace
> of mind?


and broken knee? :)
 
Zebee Johnstone wrote:

> Sure - low seats are not good for pedalling, but how many prefer peace
> of mind?


Yawn.
 
rooman said:
Incorrect again,

all qualified Coaches of the CycleSkill programme may offer instruction in the Public Domain. many already do that. others also act under the auspices of a club prgramme. If they do it under the guise of a club and require participants to join, then they get CA insurance protection automatically, is that a problem?. They also have the right to take this structured course into the wider community and arrange their own cover as required.

You are too CSV centric in that interpretation, and whislt no doubt they ( CSV etc)would like to see clubs follow this through and grow memberships of fee paying people ( and thereby people covered by their insurance which is hellish cheap).

Not incorrect Rooman - you note yourself the bias in my reply,which was totally correct for the context. Anyone, qualified or not, can coach in the public domain. No need for a SkillCycle coach licence to do that.

Did Ron not teach you that when you run a SkillCycle program, there is a fee involved for participants, that acts as temporary CA/CSV/NSWCA (or whatever its called) etc membership and this allows insurance coverage?

And yes, as the discussion was regarding CSV's coaching programs, then naturally my response would be CSV focused. Is that a problem?????
 
Paul Yates said:
"EuanB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>

<snip>
>>
>> I know that people very close to important decision makers in
>> Government are seriously looking at many aspects of cycling, its
>> benefits, limitations and effects across society, industry and the
>> economy. Part of their concern and advice is what needs to be done to
>> improving cycling training.

<snip>
> rooman Wrote:
>> those who are too lazy to take to the bike if they have to get
>> accreditation will also probably be too lazy to actually seriously ride
>> a bike after they got one if they didnt have to get accreditation...
>> they will be obese unfit souls anyway, no loss to the cycling numbers
>> really, just a loss to their families and friends due to their own
>> level of inertia...

>

<snip>
> rooman Wrote:
>> IMO it is worth it... offering skills and competence to build
>> confidence and awareness and encourage riders to ride is more positive
>> than sticking ones head in the sand and saying "oh for f$csk sake why
>> bother- we might get a few fat ar$e$ who refuse to do the course and so
>> wont ride...ever..."

> Please tell me you're not serious? You really want less people
> cycling? That's the way to do it all right.
>

<snip>
> All mandatory training will do is discourage people from riding. I
> don't know of any other country where it's neccessary so why Australia?
>

<snip>>
Generic training? Bike specific? BMX, MTN, road, 8 speed, 30 speed,
dedcending at 70kph, track stands, foot brakes, hand brakes, shifters on
down tube, STI shifters, grip *****, recumbents, single speeds, single
track, time trial style bikes, dragsters, city riding, night riding?

Assuming somone can ride in a straight line and avoid obstacles, stop
effectively, bunny hop, track stand at the lights and chide aberent
motorists, then what more is there to learn for your average cyclist??

Licencing of cyclists would imply registration and number plates...

I think to go down that path is political suicide based on bicycle sales
outstripping cage sales for the last x nuber of years.

P

turn left, turn right (cornering) turning your head to look behind you both sides, riding one handed, riding one handed and turning your head to look behind both left and right, riding one handed and indicating/signalling, riding one handed to take a drink, adjust clothing etc. Stay on upright and continue to ride ahead in a straight line when bumped or leant upon.. o.. and how to dress properly :p

I am looking forward to Rooman's School of Bicycling, where he provides free bicycling education for the masses. Wonder which insurance company will cover him on his SkillCycle licence??
 
In aus.bicycle on 30 Apr 2007 14:56:59 -0700
Bleve <[email protected]> wrote:
> On May 1, 5:38 am, Zebee Johnstone <[email protected]> wrote:
>> In aus.bicycle on Tue, 01 May 2007 01:40:08 +1000
>>
>> Sure - low seats are not good for pedalling, but how many prefer peace
>> of mind?

>
> and broken knee? :)
>


So you tell them... do they believe?

short term comfort against possible (but doubted) long term damage...
ask any smoker.

Zebee
 
"EuanB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> rooman Wrote:
>> it is fine to say that, and by the stats it seems to be the outcome that
>> society will deliver for some time to come...
>>
>> I know that people very close to important decision makers in
>> Government are seriously looking at many aspects of cycling, its
>> benefits, limitations and effects across society, industry and the
>> economy. Part of their concern and advice is what needs to be done to
>> improving cycling training. A vital aspect of the discussion has been
>> the likelihood of implementing an accreditation scheme down the track
>> if riding numbers become huge, compared to current figures...(for
>> commuting journeys especially as that is the stat. that is being
>> tracked at the moment).....so start to embrace the idea no matter how
>> benign it may seem at the moment....it may not be so remote in time for
>> us to be flippant about.

> I would suggest that those decision makers look to cities which have
> made cycling a popular choice and see if such training is either
> warranted or needed. Unless of course those decision makers want
> cycling to fail.
>
> rooman Wrote:
>> those who are too lazy to take to the bike if they have to get
>> accreditation will also probably be too lazy to actually seriously ride
>> a bike after they got one if they didnt have to get accreditation...
>> they will be obese unfit souls anyway, no loss to the cycling numbers
>> really, just a loss to their families and friends due to their own
>> level of inertia...

>
> Just like a third of cyclists suddenly became too lazy when they had
> to wear a helmet? I don't agree with your thinking.
>
>
> rooman Wrote:
>> IMO it is worth it... offering skills and competence to build
>> confidence and awareness and encourage riders to ride is more positive
>> than sticking ones head in the sand and saying "oh for f$csk sake why
>> bother- we might get a few fat ar$e$ who refuse to do the course and so
>> wont ride...ever..."

> Please tell me you're not serious? You really want less people
> cycling? That's the way to do it all right.
>
> It's been proven that if you put up a minor obstacle to cycling such as
> wearing a helmet then a significant poroportion of cyclists become
> non-cyclists. To what benefit? Cycling safety hasn't improved, in
> fact it's got worse for a long time as there were far fewer cyclists on
> the road.
>
> All mandatory training will do is discourage people from riding. I
> don't know of any other country where it's neccessary so why Australia?
>
> rooman Wrote:
>> If as many people as possible become accredited to teach these skills
>> courses, it will become more of an accepted community practice to
>> participate in them and the wider community benefits must be positive
>> ones.

> I'm interested in the accreditation, could you provide the details of
> you training provider please? Don't get me wrong, I'm not denying the
> value of skills and training. I just believe that mandatory skills
> would be detrimental to cycling at a population level.
>
>
> --
> EuanB


Perhaps there are two types of mandatory training. One which says "Before
you can ride a bicycle you must complete this training". The other says
"This is a part of your schooling/driving training - you must do it". That
doesn't mean you have to ride a bike - you do the training regardless.

Yes, it wouldn't apply to current drivers, etc. They already have their
licences and there's something unfair about retrospective law-making. The
mandatory training would apply to current schoolkids and people applying for
their learner driver permits.

I can see how the first type of mandatory training could put some people
off, but the second wouldn't...

Cheers,

Frank
 
"Bleve" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Apr 30, 2:52 pm, rooman <rooman.2pu...@no-
> mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
>> Bleve Wrote:
>>
>> > On Apr 30, 12:26 pm, rooman <rooman.2pu...@no-
>> > mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
>> > > EuanB Wrote:

>>
>> > > > I'm interested in the accreditation, could you provide the details
>> > of
>> > > > you training provider please?

>>
>> > > Cycling Australia: CA conducts 4 levels of Coach Education, to fully
>> > > support the nurturing and development of cycling athletes. These
>> > > coaching courses are delivered under the strict guidelines of the
>> > > National Coach Accreditation Scheme (NCAS) a program of the
>> > Australian
>> > > Sports Commission (ASC) and is managed by the ASC's Coaching &
>> > > Officiating Unit.
>> > > All accredited Cycling Coaches are recognised as having met the
>> > > standards under the NCAS, which are recognised by the Commonwealth
>> > and
>> > > state / territory governments.

>>
>> > > Courses are available for :

>>
>> > [chomp]

>>
>> > The CA coaching qualifications are entirely inappropriate for road
>> > safety/road riding instruction. That's not what they're for. They're
>> > designed to teach prospective coaches about performance improvement,
>> > not how to use the road safely. When I did the L1 course, there was no
>> > mention of road safety that I can recall. There's nothing about
>> > roadcraft in my coaching manual etc. The courses would need
>> > significant overhaul to cover any such material and to qualify coaches
>> > as examiners for some legal registration-licence scheme, to the point
>> > where they would have no relevance to coaching racing cyclists. Wrong
>> > organisation ....

>>
>> > bike-ed at schools can work, if it's taught by teachers with a clue
>> > (and the time to get the clue ... ).
>> > Shane hints at the real problem, if such a scheme was introduced,
>> > chances are it would be hijacked by the 'well meaning' and designed to
>> > keep pesky cyclists off the road. Teaching what works, as opposed to
>> > what suits the powerful lobby groups (RACV etc), would be ....
>> > politically difficult .... at best.

>>
>> Carl,
>>
>> you got that one wrong...you are talking about L1 and correct its That
>> is aimed at performance etc...
>>
>> CycleSkills is the course...we are talking about. run by CA as well and
>> was
>>
>> Specifically developed for Road use, for articulation to community
>> instruction and as a pre-curser to riding, it accredits Coaches for
>> community intruction, not sports performance.

>
> Do you think it's sufficient to teach gumbies how to ride safely on
> the road? CA is not the right organisation to do it. CA is *racing*
>
> If you were going to do this licence & training properly, you'd need
> an organisation the size of VicRoads to administer it.


Yep - VicRoads (or whatever it is in the other states - there are other
states, you know!) would administer it as part of the application for a
leaner's permit. Where's the problem?

me
 
"Shane Stanley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> EuanB <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> All mandatory training will do is discourage people from riding.

>
> Hear, hear!
>
> One minute we're lamenting the nanny state, people's inability to take
> responsibility for their own actions, and the fact that kids don't ride
> to school any more, next thing we're talking about stopping people from
> riding if they don't do some still-vaguely-defined training.
>
> And the chance of the "get-them-out-of-the-way-for-their-own-safety"
> types getting their mits on what's taught is even more frightening.
>
> --
> Shane Stanley


I posted above...

If the programme was introduced as a required part of driver training it
might actually discourage some from driving...

me
 
EuanB wrote:

> Bluntly, cycling is superior.


> Don't confuse what I think is a good bike lane with what I want or
> expect to get.


> Nor do I, I'm much more in favor of shared space. I gave my opinion
> on what would make a good bike path, not on what would make good
> facilities for the common good.


Well, if we can specify what we want, rather than what we expect to get, I
want a cycle path that goes in a direct line from where I am, to where I
want to go, sheltered from the weather, with no other users, and down-hill.
Oh, and piped music, something from Roger Waters. What I expect is a 2
metre, two way, shared path, with elderly people walking their dog, and a
mother with a pram and two toddlers in tow. What I do not expect is to be
able to hammer down said path at 40, 30, or even 20 km/h. That is not
sharing in my book. For that I would use the road.

Theo
 
Shane Stanley wrote:
> "Theo Bekkers" wrote:
>
>> I'm pretty sure more people would ride motorcycles/drive
>> semi-trailers if they only didn't have to pass the licence test.
>> Though I'm certain you think that's a whole different ballgame.


> Lots of people, all over the world, are successfully and safely riding
> bikes without passing a test. But would I want those all same people
> piloting high-speed, high-power mechanised machines without a licence?
> No, that is a whole different ballgame.


Agreed. Now how do you get the 'trained' road users to cope with and allow
for the 'untrained' ones?

Theo
 
Shane Stanley wrote:
> rooman wrote:


>> I dont want to see them mandatory either, but if we all dont act
>> pro-actively the nanny state will.


> If you could point me to other countries where this has happened, I'd
> be more worried. And probably even less inclined to encourage it.


Australia appears to be the most nanny-minded-to-cyclists State in the
world. And, as they aren't getting the results they want, they will keep on
making more of the same regulations that failed to get the results.

Theo
 
"Shane Stanley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>,
> "Theo Bekkers" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I'm pretty sure more people would ride motorcycles/drive semi-trailers if
>> they only didn't have to pass the licence test. Though I'm certain you
>> think
>> that's a whole different ballgame.

>
> Lots of people, all over the world, are successfully and safely riding
> bikes without passing a test. But would I want those all same people
> piloting high-speed, high-power mechanised machines without a licence?
> No, that is a whole different ballgame.
>
> --
> Shane Stanley


And lots of people are riding bikes without passing a test but in the
presence of drivers who have a clue and have SOME cycling awareness as part
of their driver training (Germany, for example). Lots of people are also
riding in places where the law defaults to faulting (not blaming - there's a
difference) the driver in the event of a collision. Lots of people also ride
where the culture is one where legal rights are balanced by social
responsibilities: "I have a legal right to ride on a major highway, but I
have a social responsibility not to exercise that right - I can choose
courtesy and take a route that doesn't slow other traffic" (it's called
courtesy - it's not mandatory!).

There are a lot more factors than can be addressed by a training course, but
a suitable course can help - not necessarily solve - some problems.
"Suitable" should, I think, have a component of social change. It's not
sufficient to teach people how to ride defensively and keep out of the way,
for instance. Better to teach people how to integrate into the traffic flow.
I suspect too many riders think of themselves as second-class road users who
should creep along the gutter in case they intefere with traffic (especially
new riders) instead of thinking of themselves as part of the traffic. A
suitable training course would clarify that position.

me
 
"rooman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Shane Stanley Wrote:
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> EuanB <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > All mandatory training will do is discourage people from riding.

>>
>> Hear, hear!
>>
>> One minute we're lamenting the nanny state, people's inability to take
>> responsibility for their own actions, and the fact that kids don't ride
>> to school any more, next thing we're talking about stopping people from
>> riding if they don't do some still-vaguely-defined training.
>>
>> And the chance of the "get-them-out-of-the-way-for-their-own-safety"
>> types getting their mits on what's taught is even more frightening.
>>
>> --
>> Shane Stanley

> you are just talking about it, some whinging and whining, some actually
> being constructive and offering positive comment....but stil not doing
> much to encourage more people to ride safely...
>
> what is positive is that there are now more and more people out there
> with the skills, the determination and the committment to be available
> and actually go into the community and run courses.
>
> I dont want to see them mandatory either, but if we all dont act
> pro-actively the nanny state will.
>
>
> --
> rooman


Unfortunately, there's an element of preaching-to-the-converted if we rely
on people doing courses voluntarily. It does nothing to educate other road
users other than there being more riders on the road obeying the road rules,
and, let's face it, someone doing nothing wrong is practically invisible -
we all take more note of exceptions (like a rider shooting a red light) than
we do of the normal behaviour which is just part of the background.

A mandatory course as myself and others have described (you can't pass
school/get a learner's permit, etc without it) ensures the new crop of road
users have a more rounded knowledge.

me
 
"TimC" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
CHOPPED OUT BIT

> There's a footpath. There's a carpark into a shopping centre, and
> cars need to cross the footpath to get into it. It is required of
> cars to give way to pedestrians when entering and leaving private
> property (in fact, I believe the road regs say cars are required to
> give way to peds crossing the road when the car is entering or leaving
> a sidestreet too; but mum still tells me to hurry up and go through
> the roundabout when I'm waving peds through the roundabout). I see so
> many peds realise that a driver is waiting for them while they are
> walking along a footpath with right of way, and so they rush along the
> footpath.
>
> But why?
>
>

MORE CHOP...

"I see so many peds realise that a driver is waiting for them while they are
walking along a footpath with right of way, and so they rush along the
footpath.

But why?"

Sometimes courtesy (why hold someone else up unnecessarily?), sometimes that
they have the same level of knowledge as other drivers, sometimes
uncertainty and sometimes a combination of the above.

How a person behaves when they walk/cycle/drive is often an indication of
how they behave when using any of the modes of transport. For instance,
someone who stops walking and lets a car drive up a driveway MIGHT
("indication" - no more) be as thoughtful when driving and will stop to let
pedestrians cross a driveway. They MIGHT also stop because thay are aware of
the law and blindly abide by it. The MIGHT also stop because they think
pedestrians have no right of way and they (the now-driver) thinks he/she is
being nice by stopping. In all cases, the driver has stopped to let
pedestrians through, but is doing the right thing for the wrong reasons
valid? What happens when the driver is in a bad mood and doesn't stop,
thinking he/she has right of way and isn't going to be nice today?

The point is that, in every event, it's the human element that is at the
root. That's the part that needs to be at least predictable and consistent.
One way (not perfect, but what is?) to produce that predictability is to
have everyone trained the same and with the same starting knowledge (which
is then built upon differently by individual experience). At least then the
motive matters less and actions are more consistent. If NOBODY stopped their
car at driveway crossings, at least I can, when walking, predict a driver's
action and act accordingly. It's when some do and some don't that accidents
occur.

me

me
 
"Theo Bekkers" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Shane Stanley wrote:
>> "Theo Bekkers" wrote:
>>
>>> I'm pretty sure more people would ride motorcycles/drive
>>> semi-trailers if they only didn't have to pass the licence test.
>>> Though I'm certain you think that's a whole different ballgame.

>
>> Lots of people, all over the world, are successfully and safely riding
>> bikes without passing a test. But would I want those all same people
>> piloting high-speed, high-power mechanised machines without a licence?
>> No, that is a whole different ballgame.

>
> Agreed. Now how do you get the 'trained' road users to cope with and allow
> for the 'untrained' ones?
>
> Theo


Time - it won't happen by tomorrow...

me
 
On May 1, 9:40 am, "Plodder" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Bleve" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> > On Apr 30, 2:52 pm, rooman <rooman.2pu...@no-
> > mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
> >> Bleve Wrote:

>
> >> > On Apr 30, 12:26 pm, rooman <rooman.2pu...@no-
> >> > mx.forums.cyclingforums.com> wrote:
> >> > > EuanB Wrote:

>
> >> > > > I'm interested in the accreditation, could you provide the details
> >> > of
> >> > > > you training provider please?

>
> >> > > Cycling Australia: CA conducts 4 levels of Coach Education, to fully
> >> > > support the nurturing and development of cycling athletes. These
> >> > > coaching courses are delivered under the strict guidelines of the
> >> > > National Coach Accreditation Scheme (NCAS) a program of the
> >> > Australian
> >> > > Sports Commission (ASC) and is managed by the ASC's Coaching &
> >> > > Officiating Unit.
> >> > > All accredited Cycling Coaches are recognised as having met the
> >> > > standards under the NCAS, which are recognised by the Commonwealth
> >> > and
> >> > > state / territory governments.

>
> >> > > Courses are available for :

>
> >> > [chomp]

>
> >> > The CA coaching qualifications are entirely inappropriate for road
> >> > safety/road riding instruction. That's not what they're for. They're
> >> > designed to teach prospective coaches about performance improvement,
> >> > not how to use the road safely. When I did the L1 course, there was no
> >> > mention of road safety that I can recall. There's nothing about
> >> > roadcraft in my coaching manual etc. The courses would need
> >> > significant overhaul to cover any such material and to qualify coaches
> >> > as examiners for some legal registration-licence scheme, to the point
> >> > where they would have no relevance to coaching racing cyclists. Wrong
> >> > organisation ....

>
> >> > bike-ed at schools can work, if it's taught by teachers with a clue
> >> > (and the time to get the clue ... ).
> >> > Shane hints at the real problem, if such a scheme was introduced,
> >> > chances are it would be hijacked by the 'well meaning' and designed to
> >> > keep pesky cyclists off the road. Teaching what works, as opposed to
> >> > what suits the powerful lobby groups (RACV etc), would be ....
> >> > politically difficult .... at best.

>
> >> Carl,

>
> >> you got that one wrong...you are talking about L1 and correct its That
> >> is aimed at performance etc...

>
> >> CycleSkills is the course...we are talking about. run by CA as well and
> >> was

>
> >> Specifically developed for Road use, for articulation to community
> >> instruction and as a pre-curser to riding, it accredits Coaches for
> >> community intruction, not sports performance.

>
> > Do you think it's sufficient to teach gumbies how to ride safely on
> > the road? CA is not the right organisation to do it. CA is *racing*

>
> > If you were going to do this licence & training properly, you'd need
> > an organisation the size of VicRoads to administer it.

>
> Yep - VicRoads (or whatever it is in the other states - there are other
> states, you know!) would administer it as part of the application for a
> leaner's permit. Where's the problem?


It's done and dusted then? :)

Well done. No-one even noticed!

I was merely raising the point that CA was not the right organisation
to run such a thing *IF* such a thing was appropriate (compulsory
licence/training for cyclists that is, and I don't think it is at this
time, but that's another argument, and one that I'm not fixed on).
That you'd need a large state or federal government department to run
such a thing seems obvious to all but rooman, who appears to think
that CA (a racing peak body which runs coaching courses fas a
sideline) has or could easily have, the appropriate infrastructure to
handle large scale road safety training for ordinary cyclists. There's
millions of people with bicycles in Australia.

Or maybe we're at cross porpoises? Maybe rooman *isn't* suggesting
that CA can, without a significant change in its charter, administer
and train road riding safety trainers and examiners?
 
On May 1, 9:54 am, "Plodder" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Shane Stanley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > "Theo Bekkers" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> >> I'm pretty sure more people would ride motorcycles/drive semi-trailers if
> >> they only didn't have to pass the licence test. Though I'm certain you
> >> think
> >> that's a whole different ballgame.

>
> > Lots of people, all over the world, are successfully and safely riding
> > bikes without passing a test. But would I want those all same people
> > piloting high-speed, high-power mechanised machines without a licence?
> > No, that is a whole different ballgame.

>
> > --
> > Shane Stanley

>
> And lots of people are riding bikes without passing a test but in the
> presence of drivers who have a clue and have SOME cycling awareness as part
> of their driver training (Germany, for example). Lots of people are also
> riding in places where the law defaults to faulting (not blaming - there's a
> difference) the driver in the event of a collision. Lots of people also ride
> where the culture is one where legal rights are balanced by social
> responsibilities: "I have a legal right to ride on a major highway, but I
> have a social responsibility not to exercise that right - I can choose
> courtesy and take a route that doesn't slow other traffic" (it's called
> courtesy - it's not mandatory!).
>
> There are a lot more factors than can be addressed by a training course, but
> a suitable course can help - not necessarily solve - some problems.
> "Suitable" should, I think, have a component of social change. It's not
> sufficient to teach people how to ride defensively and keep out of the way,


Riding defensively is *not* keeping out of the way, it's being visible
(which often means being *in* the way) and predictable and observing
and predicting the behaviour of other road users. I think that's what
you meant, but I wanted to pull you up on what looks misleading (I
know it's not your intent).


> for instance. Better to teach people how to integrate into the traffic flow.
> I suspect too many riders think of themselves as second-class road users who
> should creep along the gutter in case they intefere with traffic (especially
> new riders) instead of thinking of themselves as part of the traffic. A
> suitable training course would clarify that position.


And there's the rub ... according to Forrester et al, such things when
run by organisations of a sufficiently large size to actually run them
(ie: govt departments) teach 'get out of the way' not 'be a part of
the traffic'. If it's big and compulsory, it *will* be heavily
influenced by motoring lobbies and is, IMO, very unlikely to teach
what we would call defensive road riding.
 
Plodder wrote:
> "Theo Bekkers" wrote


>> Agreed. Now how do you get the 'trained' road users to cope with and
>> allow for the 'untrained' ones?


> Time - it won't happen by tomorrow...


Time has worked against it. Fifty years ago the road was shared by all
users, local roads were shared by cars, bikes and kids playing cricket.
Everybody coped and allowed. Now the cars don't want to share with anyone.
How do we reverse this trend?

Theo