Re: Van Impe situation, by Magilla



[email protected] wrote:

> On Mar 24, 11:14 pm, MagillaGorilla wrote:
>
>> Guy goes from getting
>>dropped in the Tour and crying on worldwide TV to off the front. Plus,
>>he's from Spain - home of the doping culture in cycling.

>
>
> Two strikes and you're positive? And we'll test you until we can prove
> it? Like Floyd?



Techically you should be able to test a sample 100 times and it should
never come up positive.

How come Mayo's came up positive on the second test yet hundreds of EPO
tests conducted by WADA labs every year come up negative.

Magilla
 
Howard Kveck wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> MagillaGorilla <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Howard Kveck wrote:

>
>
>>> The fact that they get different results at different labs says a lot
>>>about the integrity of the testing.

>>
>>
>>Can you give any examples of this? Name a specific athlete case.

>
> _______________________
> "The Spanish Cycling Federation (RFEC) has officially rejected a request from the
> International Cycling Union (UCI) to re-open the Iban Mayo case, after the sport's
> world governing received a second opinion on the B sample taken from Mayo in the 2007
> Tour de France. Mayo's A sample tested positive for EPO (Erythropoietin) shortly
> after the Tour last year, however results of his B sample, tested in the first
> instance by Belgium's national anti-doping lab in Gent last October returned an
> inconclusive result, clearing the rider of any wrong doing.
>
> "However the UCI, not convinced by the Gent lab's findings, sought a second
> opinion on the sample. It had the French Chatenay-Malabry lab, whose practices came
> under scrutiny after Floyd Landis' positive sample from the 2006 Tour, test the
> sample which returned a positive reading in mid-December.
>
> "RFEC, however, has stated that the second testing is illegal, describing it as
> being "in contrast to the principles of justice", and that re-opening the case would
> be double jeopardy.
>
> ""We wrote to the UCI on December 28 to inform them that the competition committee
> could not reopen [the Iban Mayo file]," explained Eugenio Bermudez, general secretary
> of the RFEC. "No one can be tried twice for the same facts ".
>
> "The UCI has appealed the matter with the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS)
> where the matter is expected to be resolved in Lausanne, Switzerland
> "We supported Mayo and we will continue to do," added Bermudez."
> _______________________
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2008/jan08/jan08news
>



I like how Mayo and his attorney don't deny thhe second EPO test
resulted in a positive, only that it was unethical to test it.

You people are bigtime Pro Tour semen gargglers.

But to repeat myself, the first lab test was inconclusive and therefore
does not count as a result. There was only result int he Mayo case: a
positive from the LNDD.

Mayo will lose this case. The CAS can and will overrule the Spanish
federation - a federation known for protecting the omerta of its doper
cyclists.


Magilla
 
Howard Kveck wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> MagillaGorilla <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Howard Kveck wrote:

>
>
>>> The fact that they get different results at different labs says a lot
>>>about the integrity of the testing.

>>
>>
>>Can you give any examples of this? Name a specific athlete case.

>
> _______________________
> "The Spanish Cycling Federation (RFEC) has officially rejected a request from the
> International Cycling Union (UCI) to re-open the Iban Mayo case, after the sport's
> world governing received a second opinion on the B sample taken from Mayo in the 2007
> Tour de France. Mayo's A sample tested positive for EPO (Erythropoietin) shortly
> after the Tour last year, however results of his B sample, tested in the first
> instance by Belgium's national anti-doping lab in Gent last October returned an
> inconclusive result, clearing the rider of any wrong doing.
>
> "However the UCI, not convinced by the Gent lab's findings, sought a second
> opinion on the sample. It had the French Chatenay-Malabry lab, whose practices came
> under scrutiny after Floyd Landis' positive sample from the 2006 Tour, test the
> sample which returned a positive reading in mid-December.
>
> "RFEC, however, has stated that the second testing is illegal, describing it as
> being "in contrast to the principles of justice", and that re-opening the case would
> be double jeopardy.
>
> ""We wrote to the UCI on December 28 to inform them that the competition committee
> could not reopen [the Iban Mayo file]," explained Eugenio Bermudez, general secretary
> of the RFEC. "No one can be tried twice for the same facts ".
>
> "The UCI has appealed the matter with the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS)
> where the matter is expected to be resolved in Lausanne, Switzerland
> "We supported Mayo and we will continue to do," added Bermudez."
> _______________________
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2008/jan08/jan08news
>



I like how Mayo and his attorney don't deny thhe second EPO test
resulted in a positive, only that it was unethical to test it.

You people are bigtime Pro Tour semen gargglers.

But to repeat myself, the first lab test was inconclusive and therefore
does not count as a result. There was only result int he Mayo case: a
positive from the LNDD.

Mayo will lose this case. The CAS can and will overrule the Spanish
federation - a federation known for protecting the omerta of its doper
cyclists.


Magilla
 
On Mar 25, 10:14 am, MagillaGorilla <[email protected]> wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > On Mar 24, 11:14 pm, MagillaGorilla wrote:

>
> >> If you get an inconclusive
> >>test, you should just run it again.  They did that and got a positive.

>
> > Because you think Mayo doped (as you stated elsewhere at least once),
> > and want to see him "caught", even by a lab that has conflict of
> > interest and a dirty history?

>
> How did the second EPO test by the LNDD turn positive if he didn't dope?
>   Thousands of EPO tests are done on cyclists every year and they all
> come up negative.
>
> Surely just re-running the test wouldn't cause it to turn positive.
>
> You people are bigger liars than the cyclists.


Um, "lying on the witness stand" was one thing mentioned in the expose
of Houston "crime" (or was that "criminal" <g>) labs.

LNDD has a vested, conflicted interest in providing POSITIVE drug
tests, no matter sloppy paperwork or, to quote Pound himself "How does
he get on the bike?" magnitude of unlikely test results. Well, they
(opinion) went back and fixed Floyd. In for a dime... --D-y
 
On Mar 25, 10:14 am, MagillaGorilla <[email protected]> wrote:
> [email protected] wrote:
> > On Mar 24, 11:14 pm, MagillaGorilla wrote:

>
> >> If you get an inconclusive
> >>test, you should just run it again.  They did that and got a positive.

>
> > Because you think Mayo doped (as you stated elsewhere at least once),
> > and want to see him "caught", even by a lab that has conflict of
> > interest and a dirty history?

>
> How did the second EPO test by the LNDD turn positive if he didn't dope?
>   Thousands of EPO tests are done on cyclists every year and they all
> come up negative.
>
> Surely just re-running the test wouldn't cause it to turn positive.
>
> You people are bigger liars than the cyclists.


Um, "lying on the witness stand" was one thing mentioned in the expose
of Houston "crime" (or was that "criminal" <g>) labs.

LNDD has a vested, conflicted interest in providing POSITIVE drug
tests, no matter sloppy paperwork or, to quote Pound himself "How does
he get on the bike?" magnitude of unlikely test results. Well, they
(opinion) went back and fixed Floyd. In for a dime... --D-y
 
MagillaGorilla wrote:
> Bob Schwartz wrote:
>
>> MagillaGorilla wrote:
>>
>>> 3) The same expert Beke used in his case to "prove" his EPO positive
>>> was a false positive was the same expert who claimed both Bo
>>> Hamburger and Geneviéve Jeanson's EPO positives were likewise false
>>> positives. In fact, the legal argument was the same.

>>
>>
>> Did you make that up?
>>
>> Dude, give me some search terms.
>>
>> Bob Schwartz

>
>
>
> Search #1 = Joris Delanghe Beke
> Search #2 = Joris Delanghe Jeanson
>
>
> Both cases rely on showing the antibody used in the EPO's ELISA test is
> not mono-specific and therefore cross reacts with natural proteins, thus
> causing a false positive. He also alleges that contamination of the
> urine increases a false positive rates, which is why it is essential
> that couriers immediately mail their samples for overnight shipment.
>
> I'm not sure if Beke actually used Delanghe in his case, but he
> consulted with him prior to the case and the defense he used ended up
> being nearly identical to the one Jeanson used if not absolutely identical.


Thanks for the search terms.

Jeanson never used that defense. She paid him some money, he did
some tests. He said he had evidence of a false positive (remember,
he was paid to do this) but no one ever saw it and then she took
two years. So maybe Delanghe was just jerking people off. But
USADA allowed the penalty to be negotiated down, which is not
something you do when you have absolute confidence in the test.
Is it?

And it shouldn't be a surprise that everyone points to the same
documented flaw in the test, a flaw that was pointed out by
WADA's own audit.

Bob Schwartz
 
MagillaGorilla wrote:
> Bob Schwartz wrote:
>
>> MagillaGorilla wrote:
>>
>>> 3) The same expert Beke used in his case to "prove" his EPO positive
>>> was a false positive was the same expert who claimed both Bo
>>> Hamburger and Geneviéve Jeanson's EPO positives were likewise false
>>> positives. In fact, the legal argument was the same.

>>
>>
>> Did you make that up?
>>
>> Dude, give me some search terms.
>>
>> Bob Schwartz

>
>
>
> Search #1 = Joris Delanghe Beke
> Search #2 = Joris Delanghe Jeanson
>
>
> Both cases rely on showing the antibody used in the EPO's ELISA test is
> not mono-specific and therefore cross reacts with natural proteins, thus
> causing a false positive. He also alleges that contamination of the
> urine increases a false positive rates, which is why it is essential
> that couriers immediately mail their samples for overnight shipment.
>
> I'm not sure if Beke actually used Delanghe in his case, but he
> consulted with him prior to the case and the defense he used ended up
> being nearly identical to the one Jeanson used if not absolutely identical.


Thanks for the search terms.

Jeanson never used that defense. She paid him some money, he did
some tests. He said he had evidence of a false positive (remember,
he was paid to do this) but no one ever saw it and then she took
two years. So maybe Delanghe was just jerking people off. But
USADA allowed the penalty to be negotiated down, which is not
something you do when you have absolute confidence in the test.
Is it?

And it shouldn't be a surprise that everyone points to the same
documented flaw in the test, a flaw that was pointed out by
WADA's own audit.

Bob Schwartz
 
Bob Schwartz wrote:

> MagillaGorilla wrote:
>
>> Bob Schwartz wrote:
>>
>>> MagillaGorilla wrote:
>>>
>>>> 3) The same expert Beke used in his case to "prove" his EPO positive
>>>> was a false positive was the same expert who claimed both Bo
>>>> Hamburger and Geneviéve Jeanson's EPO positives were likewise false
>>>> positives. In fact, the legal argument was the same.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Did you make that up?
>>>
>>> Dude, give me some search terms.
>>>
>>> Bob Schwartz

>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Search #1 = Joris Delanghe Beke
>> Search #2 = Joris Delanghe Jeanson
>>
>>
>> Both cases rely on showing the antibody used in the EPO's ELISA test
>> is not mono-specific and therefore cross reacts with natural proteins,
>> thus causing a false positive. He also alleges that contamination of
>> the urine increases a false positive rates, which is why it is
>> essential that couriers immediately mail their samples for overnight
>> shipment.
>>
>> I'm not sure if Beke actually used Delanghe in his case, but he
>> consulted with him prior to the case and the defense he used ended up
>> being nearly identical to the one Jeanson used if not absolutely
>> identical.

>
>
> Thanks for the search terms.
>
> Jeanson never used that defense. She paid him some money, he did
> some tests. He said he had evidence of a false positive (remember,
> he was paid to do this) but no one ever saw it and then she took
> two years. So maybe Delanghe was just jerking people off. But
> USADA allowed the penalty to be negotiated down, which is not
> something you do when you have absolute confidence in the test.
> Is it?
>
> And it shouldn't be a surprise that everyone points to the same
> documented flaw in the test, a flaw that was pointed out by
> WADA's own audit.
>
> Bob Schwartz


Jeanson did use that defense to USADA. There was never any CAS hearing.
And Jeanson did not pay Delanghe any money.

USADA did not negotiate her penalty down. Jeanson received the full 2
year ban.

Let me know if you need any more help with your homework.

Magilla
 
MagillaGorilla wrote:
> Bob Schwartz wrote:
>
>> MagillaGorilla wrote:
>>
>>> Bob Schwartz wrote:
>>>
>>>> MagillaGorilla wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> 3) The same expert Beke used in his case to "prove" his EPO
>>>>> positive was a false positive was the same expert who claimed both
>>>>> Bo Hamburger and Geneviéve Jeanson's EPO positives were likewise
>>>>> false positives. In fact, the legal argument was the same.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Did you make that up?
>>>>
>>>> Dude, give me some search terms.
>>>>
>>>> Bob Schwartz
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Search #1 = Joris Delanghe Beke
>>> Search #2 = Joris Delanghe Jeanson
>>>
>>>
>>> Both cases rely on showing the antibody used in the EPO's ELISA test
>>> is not mono-specific and therefore cross reacts with natural
>>> proteins, thus causing a false positive. He also alleges that
>>> contamination of the urine increases a false positive rates, which is
>>> why it is essential that couriers immediately mail their samples for
>>> overnight shipment.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure if Beke actually used Delanghe in his case, but he
>>> consulted with him prior to the case and the defense he used ended up
>>> being nearly identical to the one Jeanson used if not absolutely
>>> identical.

>>
>>
>> Thanks for the search terms.
>>
>> Jeanson never used that defense. She paid him some money, he did
>> some tests. He said he had evidence of a false positive (remember,
>> he was paid to do this) but no one ever saw it and then she took
>> two years. So maybe Delanghe was just jerking people off. But
>> USADA allowed the penalty to be negotiated down, which is not
>> something you do when you have absolute confidence in the test.
>> Is it?
>>
>> And it shouldn't be a surprise that everyone points to the same
>> documented flaw in the test, a flaw that was pointed out by
>> WADA's own audit.
>>
>> Bob Schwartz

>
> Jeanson did use that defense to USADA. There was never any CAS hearing.
> And Jeanson did not pay Delanghe any money.
>
> USADA did not negotiate her penalty down. Jeanson received the full 2
> year ban.


Jeanson had a prior offense when she skipped out on the test
in Belgium. She initially got life.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/nov06/nov29news

"In what may be regarded as a landmark decision by the United
States Anti-Doping Agency (USADA), Genevieve Jeanson, banned
for life after testing positive to EPO in July 2005, has been
awarded a reduced sentence of just two years."

On her relationship with Delanghe...

"The agreement between USADA and Jeanson, dated November 1,
2006, comes after a recent expert report submitted by Belgian
doctor Joris Delanghe, hired by Jeanson, who questioned
Jeanson's test results from the 2005 International Tour de
Toona, claiming it to be a false positive."

Everyone knew Jeanson was guilty. Yet Delanghe was still able
to bluff them into reducing the penalty.

Moninger tried something similar. USADA ripped him and his
lab results apart. That's what happens when USADA is confident
of their results.

When they are not confident in their results, they blink.
Even when everyone knows the party involved is totally guilty.

You get the last word, I don't have time for this.

Bob Schwartz
 
Bob Schwartz wrote:

> MagillaGorilla wrote:
>>
>> Jeanson did use that defense to USADA. There was never any CAS
>> hearing. And Jeanson did not pay Delanghe any money.
>>
>> USADA did not negotiate her penalty down. Jeanson received the full 2
>> year ban.

>
>
> Jeanson had a prior offense when she skipped out on the test
> in Belgium. She initially got life.
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/nov06/nov29news
>
> "In what may be regarded as a landmark decision by the United
> States Anti-Doping Agency (USADA), Genevieve Jeanson, banned
> for life after testing positive to EPO in July 2005, has been
> awarded a reduced sentence of just two years."
>
> On her relationship with Delanghe...
>
> "The agreement between USADA and Jeanson, dated November 1,
> 2006, comes after a recent expert report submitted by Belgian
> doctor Joris Delanghe, hired by Jeanson, who questioned
> Jeanson's test results from the 2005 International Tour de
> Toona, claiming it to be a false positive."


>
> Bob Schwartz



The cyclingnews report was 100% wrong on both the fact that Jeanson
hired Delanghe and that she got life. Neither are true. Jeanson never
got life (except in the press by stupid reporters who repeated it
because they made an assumption they shouldn't have made and then just
copied it from other reporters).

Try reading this article - it says she got 2 years (there is no mention
of her getting a life suspension anywhere):

http://www.velonews.com/article/11252

Thanks,

Magilla
 
Bob Schwartz wrote:

> MagillaGorilla wrote:
>
>> Bob Schwartz wrote:
>>
>>> MagillaGorilla wrote:
>>>
>>>> Bob Schwartz wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> MagillaGorilla wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> 3) The same expert Beke used in his case to "prove" his EPO
>>>>>> positive was a false positive was the same expert who claimed both
>>>>>> Bo Hamburger and Geneviéve Jeanson's EPO positives were likewise
>>>>>> false positives. In fact, the legal argument was the same.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Did you make that up?
>>>>>
>>>>> Dude, give me some search terms.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob Schwartz
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Search #1 = Joris Delanghe Beke
>>>> Search #2 = Joris Delanghe Jeanson
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Both cases rely on showing the antibody used in the EPO's ELISA test
>>>> is not mono-specific and therefore cross reacts with natural
>>>> proteins, thus causing a false positive. He also alleges that
>>>> contamination of the urine increases a false positive rates, which
>>>> is why it is essential that couriers immediately mail their samples
>>>> for overnight shipment.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure if Beke actually used Delanghe in his case, but he
>>>> consulted with him prior to the case and the defense he used ended
>>>> up being nearly identical to the one Jeanson used if not absolutely
>>>> identical.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks for the search terms.
>>>
>>> Jeanson never used that defense. She paid him some money, he did
>>> some tests. He said he had evidence of a false positive (remember,
>>> he was paid to do this) but no one ever saw it and then she took
>>> two years. So maybe Delanghe was just jerking people off. But
>>> USADA allowed the penalty to be negotiated down, which is not
>>> something you do when you have absolute confidence in the test.
>>> Is it?
>>>
>>> And it shouldn't be a surprise that everyone points to the same
>>> documented flaw in the test, a flaw that was pointed out by
>>> WADA's own audit.
>>>
>>> Bob Schwartz

>>
>>
>> Jeanson did use that defense to USADA. There was never any CAS
>> hearing. And Jeanson did not pay Delanghe any money.
>>
>> USADA did not negotiate her penalty down. Jeanson received the full 2
>> year ban.

>
>
> Jeanson had a prior offense when she skipped out on the test
> in Belgium. She initially got life.
>
> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2006/nov06/nov29news
>
> "In what may be regarded as a landmark decision by the United
> States Anti-Doping Agency (USADA), Genevieve Jeanson, banned
> for life after testing positive to EPO in July 2005, has been
> awarded a reduced sentence of just two years."
>
> On her relationship with Delanghe...
>
> "The agreement between USADA and Jeanson, dated November 1,
> 2006, comes after a recent expert report submitted by Belgian
> doctor Joris Delanghe, hired by Jeanson, who questioned
> Jeanson's test results from the 2005 International Tour de
> Toona, claiming it to be a false positive."
>
> Everyone knew Jeanson was guilty. Yet Delanghe was still able
> to bluff them into reducing the penalty.
>
> Moninger tried something similar. USADA ripped him and his
> lab results apart. That's what happens when USADA is confident
> of their results.
>
> When they are not confident in their results, they blink.
> Even when everyone knows the party involved is totally guilty.
>
> You get the last word, I don't have time for this.
>
> Bob Schwartz


-----------------------------------------

Read this, Bob:

After this letter was posted on Velonews.com I received an email from
USADA council Travis Tygart asking permission to give USADA's point of
view. I was more then happy to hear what USADA had to say as I wanted to
find out how they could in this specific case lessen the sanction of Ms.
Jeanson for what appeared to be their own benefit. I wanted to hear that
they were an anti-doping organization dedicated to eliminating the
practice of drugs in sport, and that they had not acted in their own
selfish needs to avoid more costly and lengthy appeals by reaching a
settlement with Ms. Jeanson.

<snip>

After listening to Mr. Tygart I am convinced that USADA acted in the
best manner that they could and I stand corrected. I was very
disillusioned after the contract came out, but what myself and probably
most everyone does not know, and what USADA probably needed to write in
conjunction with their contract, is that a two-year sentence was the
most that Ms. Jeanson was ever going to receive. Why? Because her first
infraction in April, 2004 (when she missed the post race drug test at
Fleche Wallonne) was ruled a "no fault" violation. Even though this is
considered her first offence a "no fault" ruling means that a period of
ineligibility (in the case of a missed drug test this can be from three
months to two years) is eliminated.

This elimination of any ineligibility in Ms. Jeanson's first violation
means that her second violation cannot receive the sanction of a period
of lifetime ineligibility according to the WADA Code. Technically this
is Ms. Jeanson's second violation but the WADA Code has a loophole in
this specific case to not impose the lifetime ban. At most she can only
receive two years. These loopholes in the WADA Code are there to allow
flexibility in individual case management. WADA, according to Mr.
Tygart, is currently working to rewrite a new code (which will not be
completed for at least another year) as they evaluate such loopholes, in
order to further advance anti-doping efforts.

So while this contract signed between WADA and Ms. Jeanson gives the
appearance that USADA "gave in" and lessened the sanction of Ms. Jeanson
this is not the case. USADA was able to achieve the maximum sentence for
Ms. Jeanson and was also able to avoid thousands of dollars in appeals
and another year or more of their time in fighting another doping
infraction. What I have learned in all this is that often there is more
going on behind the scene than we, the general public and athletes,
realize. I have in the past pointed my finger and wrongly accused USADA
in not doing enough to combat the use of drugs in cycling, when actually
they are doing all they can within the current system. It is really the
system that has it’s flaws and loopholes which in certain cases allows
violators an easier way out. No system is perfect and WADA has done it's
best up to this point to make the Code as fair as possible. They are
currently reviewing the Code to build on the experience gained to date
in order to make improvements.

I have also learned that we as athletes cannot sit back and say nothing
and then complain of continual drug use in our sport. We need to work
with organizations like USADA, WADA and CCES (Canadian Centre for Ethics
in Sport) if we are serious about winning the battle against drug use.
As athletes we need to take a stand and make our voices heard. One way,
possibly, is to request an increase of the current sanctions. Mr Tygart
suggested that the athletes should demand more then a two-year period of
ineligibility for the first offence. I agree. If we want to really clean
up sport and rid it of drug cheats we need to impose greater penalties.
It is far too easy for offenders to make their way back into competition.

In the end, it’s up to us.

Anne Samplonius

http://www.pedalmag.com/index.php?module=Section&action=viewdetail&item_id=8999
 
In article <[email protected]>,
MagillaGorilla <[email protected]> wrote:

> Howard Kveck wrote:
>
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > MagillaGorilla <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>MagillaGorilla wrote:
> >>>Howard Kveck wrote:
> >>>> The fact that they get different results at different labs says a
> >>>>lot about the integrity of the testing.

> >
> >
> >>>Can you give any examples of this? Name a specific athlete case. I
> >>>predict you will either never respond to this post or respond and not
> >>>answer the question.
> >>>
> >>>Like most people in here, you base your arguments on figments of your
> >>>imagination.
> >>
> >>In Mayo's case, the first test came out "inconclusive." The second test
> >>done by the LNDD came out positive.

> >
> >
> > The first test (at LNDD) was a positive. The second test was at Ghent - that was
> > inconclusive. They retested that sample at LNDD and got another positive.
> >
> >
> >>I don't consider that "different results." If you get an inconclusive
> >>test, you should just run it again. They did that and got a positive.

> >
> >
> > Well, the fact that they get different results (and I know that "positive",
> > "inconclusive" and "negative" are different results) at different labs indicates that
> > there are problems with a) lab personnel, b) lab equipment, c) the tests themselves.
> > Those factors are are a start of a list of possible problems. I imagine that others
> > with more experience in a lab can fire off some more. Anyway, a test should be
> > repeatable with the same results in any lab. That's one of the core principles of the
> > scientific method.
> >

>
> No, an inconclusive result is not considered a result. It should never
> have been divulged by the lab and simply re-run by them until they got a
> definitive result.
>
> I hate to tell you, by the labs that run your medical tests do the same
> thing all the time. Nobody said lab work was perfect. Somehow, you
> think that if lab work isn't perfect it can't be used. Not true.


Does anybody know the false positive and false negative
rates for doping tests? These rates are known for the
tests at 'the labs that run your medical tests.' If not,
the doping test results are poorly known quantities. We
need to know the FP and FN rates and the population rates.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_positive>

--
Michael Press
 
In article <[email protected]>,
MagillaGorilla <[email protected]> wrote:

> Howard Kveck wrote:
>
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > MagillaGorilla <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Howard Kveck wrote:

> >
> >
> >>> The fact that they get different results at different labs says a lot
> >>>about the integrity of the testing.
> >>
> >>
> >>Can you give any examples of this? Name a specific athlete case.

> >
> > _______________________
> > "The Spanish Cycling Federation (RFEC) has officially rejected a request from the
> > International Cycling Union (UCI) to re-open the Iban Mayo case, after the sport's
> > world governing received a second opinion on the B sample taken from Mayo in the 2007
> > Tour de France. Mayo's A sample tested positive for EPO (Erythropoietin) shortly
> > after the Tour last year, however results of his B sample, tested in the first
> > instance by Belgium's national anti-doping lab in Gent last October returned an
> > inconclusive result, clearing the rider of any wrong doing.
> >
> > "However the UCI, not convinced by the Gent lab's findings, sought a second
> > opinion on the sample. It had the French Chatenay-Malabry lab, whose practices came
> > under scrutiny after Floyd Landis' positive sample from the 2006 Tour, test the
> > sample which returned a positive reading in mid-December.
> >
> > "RFEC, however, has stated that the second testing is illegal, describing it as
> > being "in contrast to the principles of justice", and that re-opening the case would
> > be double jeopardy.
> >
> > ""We wrote to the UCI on December 28 to inform them that the competition committee
> > could not reopen [the Iban Mayo file]," explained Eugenio Bermudez, general secretary
> > of the RFEC. "No one can be tried twice for the same facts ".
> >
> > "The UCI has appealed the matter with the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS)
> > where the matter is expected to be resolved in Lausanne, Switzerland
> > "We supported Mayo and we will continue to do," added Bermudez."
> > _______________________
> >
> > http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2008/jan08/jan08news
> >

>
>
> I like how Mayo and his attorney don't deny thhe second EPO test
> resulted in a positive, only that it was unethical to test it.


He does not and should not have to deny it.
The test third (not second) test was _illegal_.

Do you deny that you are a rabid hate monger?

--
Michael Press
 
Michael Press wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> MagillaGorilla <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Howard Kveck wrote:
>>
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>> MagillaGorilla <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>MagillaGorilla wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Howard Kveck wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The fact that they get different results at different labs says a
>>>>>>lot about the integrity of the testing.
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Can you give any examples of this? Name a specific athlete case. I
>>>>>predict you will either never respond to this post or respond and not
>>>>>answer the question.
>>>>>
>>>>>Like most people in here, you base your arguments on figments of your
>>>>>imagination.
>>>>
>>>>In Mayo's case, the first test came out "inconclusive." The second test
>>>>done by the LNDD came out positive.
>>>
>>>
>>> The first test (at LNDD) was a positive. The second test was at Ghent - that was
>>>inconclusive. They retested that sample at LNDD and got another positive.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I don't consider that "different results." If you get an inconclusive
>>>>test, you should just run it again. They did that and got a positive.
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, the fact that they get different results (and I know that "positive",
>>>"inconclusive" and "negative" are different results) at different labs indicates that
>>>there are problems with a) lab personnel, b) lab equipment, c) the tests themselves.
>>>Those factors are are a start of a list of possible problems. I imagine that others
>>>with more experience in a lab can fire off some more. Anyway, a test should be
>>>repeatable with the same results in any lab. That's one of the core principles of the
>>>scientific method.
>>>

>>
>>No, an inconclusive result is not considered a result. It should never
>>have been divulged by the lab and simply re-run by them until they got a
>>definitive result.
>>
>>I hate to tell you, by the labs that run your medical tests do the same
>>thing all the time. Nobody said lab work was perfect. Somehow, you
>>think that if lab work isn't perfect it can't be used. Not true.

>
>
> Does anybody know the false positive and false negative
> rates for doping tests? These rates are known for the
> tests at 'the labs that run your medical tests.' If not,
> the doping test results are poorly known quantities. We
> need to know the FP and FN rates and the population rates.
>
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_positive>
>



The false positive rate for both an A and B sample to be positive when
it's actually negative is very low...probably less than .001%.

But if the cyclists don't care and keep agreeing to the current tests,
why do you care more than they do?

You make it sound like you are advocating for them in ways the athletes,
their agents, their managers, and their teams cannot do themselves.


Magilla
 
Michael Press wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> MagillaGorilla <[email protected]> wrote:
>


>>I like how Mayo and his attorney don't deny thhe second EPO test
>>resulted in a positive, only that it was unethical to test it.

>
>
> He does not and should not have to deny it.
> The test third (not second) test was _illegal_.
>
> Do you deny that you are a rabid hate monger?
>



I hate to tell you, but in the Landis case the arbitrators were asked to
rule on whether USADA could test Landis' A samples for IRMS metabolites
even though they were negative for T:E, and the arbitrators said there
is no prohibition against WADA lab testing any sample they want
regardless of whether the A or B is negative or not.

Who told you that it was "illegal" to test the B sample when the A is
negative? Show me the WADA rule you are referring to.

Also, in Mayo's case, they never opened the B-sample. The A-sample test
was simply re-run and it came out positive (since the initial test was
inconclusive and NOT negative). There was no negative A test in Mayo's
case.

But even if there were, they could still test his B-sample if they wanted.

Not sure why you confuse my knowledge of the actual rules with being a
"hate monger." Apparently you think USADA's general counsel is likewise
a "hate monger" since he says the same thing.

-------
http://www.velonews.com/article/71575

USADA general counsel Bill Bock said Friday that agency rules prohibit
him from discussing any specific open cases. He also told VeloNews that
that the testing of a B sample after a negative A sample "is not
prohibited, and certainly we believe it to be permissible."
--------

Magilla
 
Dans le message de news:[email protected],
Michael Press <[email protected]> a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
> In article <[email protected]>,
> MagillaGorilla <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Howard Kveck wrote:
>>
>>> In article <[email protected]>,
>>> MagillaGorilla <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Howard Kveck wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>> The fact that they get different results at different labs says
>>>>> a lot about the integrity of the testing.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Can you give any examples of this? Name a specific athlete case.
>>>
>>> _______________________
>>> "The Spanish Cycling Federation (RFEC) has officially rejected a
>>> request from the International Cycling Union (UCI) to re-open the
>>> Iban Mayo case, after the sport's world governing received a second
>>> opinion on the B sample taken from Mayo in the 2007 Tour de France.
>>> Mayo's A sample tested positive for EPO (Erythropoietin) shortly
>>> after the Tour last year, however results of his B sample, tested
>>> in the first instance by Belgium's national anti-doping lab in Gent
>>> last October returned an inconclusive result, clearing the rider of
>>> any wrong doing.
>>>
>>> "However the UCI, not convinced by the Gent lab's findings,
>>> sought a second opinion on the sample. It had the French
>>> Chatenay-Malabry lab, whose practices came under scrutiny after
>>> Floyd Landis' positive sample from the 2006 Tour, test the sample
>>> which returned a positive reading in mid-December.
>>>
>>> "RFEC, however, has stated that the second testing is illegal,
>>> describing it as being "in contrast to the principles of justice",
>>> and that re-opening the case would be double jeopardy.
>>>
>>> ""We wrote to the UCI on December 28 to inform them that the
>>> competition committee could not reopen [the Iban Mayo file],"
>>> explained Eugenio Bermudez, general secretary of the RFEC. "No one
>>> can be tried twice for the same facts ".
>>>
>>> "The UCI has appealed the matter with the Court of Arbitration
>>> for Sport (CAS) where the matter is expected to be resolved in
>>> Lausanne, Switzerland "We supported Mayo and we will continue to
>>> do," added Bermudez." _______________________
>>>
>>> http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2008/jan08/jan08news
>>>

>>
>>
>> I like how Mayo and his attorney don't deny thhe second EPO test
>> resulted in a positive, only that it was unethical to test it.

>
> He does not and should not have to deny it.
> The test third (not second) test was _illegal_.
>
> Do you deny that you are a rabid hate monger?


His first rabies TEST was inconclusive.
 
In article <[email protected]>,
MagillaGorilla <[email protected]> wrote:

> Michael Press wrote:
>
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > MagillaGorilla <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Howard Kveck wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>In article <[email protected]>,
> >>> MagillaGorilla <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>MagillaGorilla wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>Howard Kveck wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> The fact that they get different results at different labs says a
> >>>>>>lot about the integrity of the testing.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>Can you give any examples of this? Name a specific athlete case. I
> >>>>>predict you will either never respond to this post or respond and not
> >>>>>answer the question.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Like most people in here, you base your arguments on figments of your
> >>>>>imagination.
> >>>>
> >>>>In Mayo's case, the first test came out "inconclusive." The second test
> >>>>done by the LNDD came out positive.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> The first test (at LNDD) was a positive. The second test was at Ghent - that was
> >>>inconclusive. They retested that sample at LNDD and got another positive.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>I don't consider that "different results." If you get an inconclusive
> >>>>test, you should just run it again. They did that and got a positive.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Well, the fact that they get different results (and I know that "positive",
> >>>"inconclusive" and "negative" are different results) at different labs indicates that
> >>>there are problems with a) lab personnel, b) lab equipment, c) the tests themselves.
> >>>Those factors are are a start of a list of possible problems. I imagine that others
> >>>with more experience in a lab can fire off some more. Anyway, a test should be
> >>>repeatable with the same results in any lab. That's one of the core principles of the
> >>>scientific method.
> >>>
> >>
> >>No, an inconclusive result is not considered a result. It should never
> >>have been divulged by the lab and simply re-run by them until they got a
> >>definitive result.
> >>
> >>I hate to tell you, by the labs that run your medical tests do the same
> >>thing all the time. Nobody said lab work was perfect. Somehow, you
> >>think that if lab work isn't perfect it can't be used. Not true.

> >
> >
> > Does anybody know the false positive and false negative
> > rates for doping tests? These rates are known for the
> > tests at 'the labs that run your medical tests.' If not,
> > the doping test results are poorly known quantities. We
> > need to know the FP and FN rates and the population rates.
> >
> > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_positive>
> >

>
>
> The false positive rate for both an A and B sample to be positive when
> it's actually negative is very low...probably less than .001%.


What is the probability that it is less than 0.001%.
Many medical tests have false positive rates of 0.1%.

>
> But if the cyclists don't care and keep agreeing to the current tests,
> why do you care more than they do?


I am not discussing this with professional cyclists (not so far as I know)
I am discussing it with you who has high confidence in the accuracy of
reported results.

> You make it sound like you are advocating for them in ways the athletes,
> their agents, their managers, and their teams cannot do themselves.


No, I am addressing your confidence in test results. It does not
appear to be based on the resolving capacity of the tests used.

Here is a simple but no corners cut exposition of the mathematics.

<http://betterexplained.com/articles/an-intuitive-and-short-explanation-of-bayes-theorem/>

It behooves everyone who exposes himself or herself to medical screening
tests to understand this stuff thoroughly. Self defense.

--
Michael Press
 
In article <[email protected]>,
MagillaGorilla <[email protected]> wrote:

> Howard Kveck wrote:
>
> > In article <[email protected]>,
> > MagillaGorilla <[email protected]> wrote:


> > The first test (at LNDD) was a positive. The second test was at Ghent -
> > that was
> > inconclusive. They retested that sample at LNDD and got another positive.
> >
> >> I don't consider that "different results." If you get an inconclusive
> >> test, you should just run it again. They did that and got a positive.

> >
> > Well, the fact that they get different results (and I know that
> > "positive", "inconclusive" and "negative" are different results) at different
> > labs indicates that there are problems with a) lab personnel, b) lab equipment,
> > c) the tests themselves. Those factors are are a start of a list of possible
> > problems. I imagine that others with more experience in a lab can fire off some
> > more. Anyway, a test should be repeatable with the same results in any lab.
> > That's one of the core principles of the scientific method.
> >

>
> No, an inconclusive result is not considered a result. It should never
> have been divulged by the lab and simply re-run by them until they got a
> definitive result.


Perhaps the Ghent lab got the best result the sample would allow and the LNDD
results are the ones that are inaccurate. the point that I'm making and you're
ignoring is that the labs *should* be able to repeat the tests and get the same
result - that is a core part of the process, I think. But they can't, as evidenced by
this example.

> I hate to tell you, by the labs that run your medical tests do the same
> thing all the time. Nobody said lab work was perfect. Somehow, you
> think that if lab work isn't perfect it can't be used. Not true.


One of my friends runs a lab at a cancer research center in Seattle - she'd
disagree with you on that point, Magilla.

--
tanx,
Howard

Whatever happened to
Leon Trotsky?
He got an icepick
That made his ears burn.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
 
In article <[email protected]>,
MagillaGorilla <[email protected]> wrote:

> Howard Kveck wrote:
> >
> >>By the way, Mayo doped. Let's not get stupid. Guy goes from getting
> >>dropped in the Tour and crying on worldwide TV to off the front. Plus,
> >>he's from Spain - home of the doping culture in cycling.
> >>
> >>Mayo will lose this case. Mayo is doped to the gills. Same with that
> >>Spanish war refugee Herasshole.

> >
> >
> > ... I don't want it to be accomplished by assumptions.
> >

>
>
> Neither do I. The LNDD said Mayo's EPO test was positive. Mayo's
> argument apparently claims they had no right to run the "B" test since
> the "A" test was negative.
>
> In fact, the A test was merely inconclusive and simply re-run by the LNDD.


No, the 'B' test was inconclusive at Ghent and re-run by LNDD.

--
tanx,
Howard

Whatever happened to
Leon Trotsky?
He got an icepick
That made his ears burn.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
 
In article <[email protected]>,
MagillaGorilla <[email protected]> wrote:

> [email protected] wrote:
>
> > On Mar 24, 11:14 pm, MagillaGorilla wrote:
> >
> >
> >> If you get an inconclusive
> >>test, you should just run it again. They did that and got a positive.

> >
> >
> > Because you think Mayo doped (as you stated elsewhere at least once),
> > and want to see him "caught", even by a lab that has conflict of
> > interest and a dirty history?
> >

>
>
> How did the second EPO test by the LNDD turn positive if he didn't dope?


Perhaps because the techs at LNDD made the same errors in how they did the 'B' as
they did on the 'A' test.

> Thousands of EPO tests are done on cyclists every year and they all
> come up negative.


But the authorities and the developer of the test have not, as far as I can
recall, offered any kind of false positive rate, As I recall, the developer said that
trying to figure out a false positive rate was unnecessary.

> Surely just re-running the test wouldn't cause it to turn positive.


If it's done at a different lab who could have different operating standards, it
could.

--
tanx,
Howard

Whatever happened to
Leon Trotsky?
He got an icepick
That made his ears burn.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
 

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