Re: Vandeman applying Republican tactics to the environment



On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 07:31:39 GMT, "Jules Augley"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Jules Augley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> "Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...

>> [...]
>>>> Has it ever occurred to Jules Augley that science and the scientific
>>>> method is vastly overrated. And there is nothing more overrated on the
>>>> face of the earth than the scientists themselves. But like all his
>>>> breed, he buries his head in meaningless research and hides behind his
>>>> degrees. My contempt for such types runneth over! Any old mediocre
>>>> politician could make mince meat out of him in a thrice!
>>>>
>>>
>>> Im glad I irritate you so much. As for you being a genius librarian, let
>>> me address your first 'point'. Yes it has occured to me that maybe we
>>> should be questioning scientific method, but guess what...that type of
>>> thinking is the essence of science...Hooray! And yes I have read Kuhn and
>>> Feyeraband. Please feel free to get as wound up as possible.

>>
>> My genius is not that of a librarian, but rather that of a man of the
>> liberal arts. I am your ultimate dilettante. I abhor all professionalism
>> and I love all amateurism. I know as much as I care to know about the
>> scientific method. After all, it is not rocket science.
>>
>> The sciences properly understood are as much a part of the liberal arts as
>> is art or music or literature. In fact, my college that graduated from at
>> the University of Minnesota was formerly designated the College of
>> Science, Literature and the Arts (SLA). They had that exactly right, but I
>> think they have since changed it to something else.
>>
>> What I don't like are scientists who pretend to a holier than thou
>> attitude due to their training. They are always putting down everyone else
>> who did not do the drudgery that goes with most scientific disciplines.
>> Intellect is intellect and there is nothing special about the scientific
>> intellect. It finally just reduces to a method of inquiry, but there are
>> many other methods of inquiry which are just as valid if not more so. You
>> parade your scientific credentials before me at your peril. I will respect
>> them but I am not in awe of them.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
>> aka
>> Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota
>>

>
>You are right about science and the arts, in fact Einstein said as much:
>'All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree.' and 'The
>most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source
>of all true art and science.'
>
>
>
>
>And where did I ever have a holier than thou attitude? I have never said
>science is the pinnacle of intellectual achievement and I know, better than
>you I suspect, that the scientific method IS just a method of inquiry. The
>reason it has such popularity is because its so simple to understand and yet
>is also a powerful tool. Why not try reading Intellectual Impostures by
>Sokal and Bricmont. They exposed scientific and intellectual frauds at the
>highest level.
>
>
>
>No2: I have never expected ANYONE to be in awe of my work or degrees


I beg to differ. You proudly directed me to your "peer-reviewed,
published paper" as the only way to be. I don't have much use for
liars and phoneys. You are obviously prejudiced against mefor not
publishing the same way you do, when that is completely IRRELEVANT.

There is a lot of **** passing for science these days. I'm reading a
study on trail damage by Jeff Marion that is full of statistics, but
lacks the most basic controls necessary to draw worthwhile
conclusions.

I haven't heard you criticizing HIM here....

and I
>
>have met very few (a tiny fraction) people in the same field with multiple
>degrees and years of experience who have shown that type of arrogance. as
>much as it pains me to say it I think I have the same opinion as you do on
>that topic. Einstein again: 'Everyone should be respected as an individual,
>but no one idolized' On this point, please dont flatter yourself that you
>think I should feel the need to impress you, who, after all, are represented
>to the (small) world of these Usenet groups as some words on a screen. Feel
>free to clean up the punctuation and grammar, as I have noticed, is your
>wont.
>

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sun, 28 May 2006 22:03:49 GMT, "Jules Augley"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>I will restate this again, in the hope that MV will realise why I cant
>>post
>>the report (or maybe he just doesnt read things?). The report HAS NOT BEEN
>>MARKED, therefore it would be illegal, not to mention completely
>>inappropriate to post any of the actual report he has written until AFTER
>>the student has received his grades. Please read that until it sinks in
>>MV.

>
> I said "evidence", not their paper. You could tell us the research
> design. That would immediately indicate how faulty it is.


Again, you are trying to discredit information that you haven't seen. Look,
Nostra-dumbass, the paper is not published or available yet in any form.
Your attempt to slander it by referring to the method of study, merely
because you assume the findings to differ from your OPINIONS, is not only
unscientific, it is unethical.
>
>>As for my objectivity, you are hardly an expert on that topic so no one
>>can
>>take your comment seriously there. I originally posted a reply in this
>>thread, as it was cross-posted to sci.environment. That three letter
>>abbreviation stands for Science. Science, as I have been taught by ALL of
>>my
>>teachers, professors and peers, depends on an acknowledgment that
>>objectivity is the ideal and is to be strived for.

>
> Exactly, which is why you should be interested in improving your
> students' research design, instead of defending it and trying to keep
> it secret.

Your word as a reference that there may be an issue with any part of this
possible report is laughable.
>
> There are thousands of
>>reports, papers and other published works with scientists openly
>>criticising
>>their own work and pointing out where that ideal may be compromised. That
>>is
>>what HONEST scientists do. They do not start with an opinion and then
>>denounce work that may not agree with that opinion, that, MV is called
>>SUBJECTIVITY. Popperian scientific method, which I may add is influenced
>>by
>>David Humes', who has a memorial in our hometown (thats Hume and me, big
>>hint there Dolan and MV) philosphy, depends on striving for objectivity.
>>If
>>you claim to be an expert in the scientific method, then pass off your
>>opinions with no objective or empirical basis as scientific evidence, then
>>you are a scientific fraud. You could do everyone a huge favour and read
>>up
>>on Poppers, his influences and the people he influenceds' work, maybe then
>>you can approach your topic more scientifically.

>
> The essence of the scientific method is honesty and openness. You are
> trying to cover up bad science. You are also confusing STYLE with
> science. I simply put my conclusion first, because (as in a newspaper
> article) I wasn't sure how far I would get in my talk before I ran out
> of time. That has nothing to do with the soundness of my conclusions,
> which have been questioned by NOT ONE PERSON except mountain bikers.

You developed your conclusion first, then sought only reference and context
you could use as an attempt to develop a foundation. We are not confusing
anything. We have years of usenet history (google group search "vandeman")
to show how you misuse honesty and integrity in your OPINIONS. Your claim of
soundness to your conclusions is MEANINGLESS as you refuse to show
references, reviews or comments from any public presentation of these
OPINIONS.
> ===
 
"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 1 Jun 2006 01:32:45 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> Your posts deserve a place of honor in the Smithsonian. Maybe I'll
> work on that next....
>

Please - by all means do so. That will insure the both of you get lost in
obscurity.
 
"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 07:31:39 GMT, "Jules Augley"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>> "Jules Augley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>

>>
>>And where did I ever have a holier than thou attitude? I have never said
>>science is the pinnacle of intellectual achievement and I know, better
>>than
>>you I suspect, that the scientific method IS just a method of inquiry. The
>>reason it has such popularity is because its so simple to understand and
>>yet
>>is also a powerful tool. Why not try reading Intellectual Impostures by
>>Sokal and Bricmont. They exposed scientific and intellectual frauds at the
>>highest level.
>>
>>
>>
>>No2: I have never expected ANYONE to be in awe of my work or degrees

>
> I beg to differ. You proudly directed me to your "peer-reviewed,
> published paper" as the only way to be. I don't have much use for
> liars and phoneys. You are obviously prejudiced against mefor not
> publishing the same way you do, when that is completely IRRELEVANT.
>

Actually, the first two messages and replies in this thread from "Augley"
show you, Vandeman, as the one person expressing bias against this
information without even seeing it first only because it may reflect a
different opinion.
Quotes below from 5/21-23
Augley: "As for calling my bluff, once the project has been marked I can
post substantial pieces of the report. But for now, he conducted and
experiment in a regional park in Scotland. The experiment consisted of
measuring impacts caused by both mountain bikers and walkers on vegetation,
in two different habitat types (woodland and grassland) and on three
different gradients (downhill, uphill and flat). Guess what, the results of
his ANOVA showed NO SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE between mountain biking and
walking."


MV: "So, in other words, he made the same error in logic that all other
"researchers" did: ignoring the grossly different DISTANCES that hikers vs.
bikers travel. Since he only measured impact PER FOOT, it follows that
mountain bikers have several times the impact of hikers, since they travel
several times as far! Idiot.
----------------------------

I believe calling someone an "idiot" straight away pretty much nails it.
Augley merely relays information and you call him an "idiot" simply because
your OPINION was challenged! Beyond that, you are famous for calling "junk
science" if someome does not "publish" or conduct "research" as you would
yet you have no issue calling him on it. The "Vandeman Double Standard" is
alive and well!
 
On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 12:37:00 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 07:31:39 GMT, "Jules Augley"
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>>> "Jules Augley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>
>>>
>>>And where did I ever have a holier than thou attitude? I have never said
>>>science is the pinnacle of intellectual achievement and I know, better
>>>than
>>>you I suspect, that the scientific method IS just a method of inquiry. The
>>>reason it has such popularity is because its so simple to understand and
>>>yet
>>>is also a powerful tool. Why not try reading Intellectual Impostures by
>>>Sokal and Bricmont. They exposed scientific and intellectual frauds at the
>>>highest level.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>No2: I have never expected ANYONE to be in awe of my work or degrees

>>
>> I beg to differ. You proudly directed me to your "peer-reviewed,
>> published paper" as the only way to be. I don't have much use for
>> liars and phoneys. You are obviously prejudiced against mefor not
>> publishing the same way you do, when that is completely IRRELEVANT.
>>

>Actually, the first two messages and replies in this thread from "Augley"
>show you, Vandeman, as the one person expressing bias against this
>information without even seeing it first only because it may reflect a
>different opinion.
>Quotes below from 5/21-23
>Augley: "As for calling my bluff, once the project has been marked I can
>post substantial pieces of the report. But for now, he conducted and
>experiment in a regional park in Scotland. The experiment consisted of
>measuring impacts caused by both mountain bikers and walkers on vegetation,
>in two different habitat types (woodland and grassland) and on three
>different gradients (downhill, uphill and flat). Guess what, the results of
>his ANOVA showed NO SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE between mountain biking and
>walking."
>
>
>MV: "So, in other words, he made the same error in logic that all other
>"researchers" did: ignoring the grossly different DISTANCES that hikers vs.
>bikers travel. Since he only measured impact PER FOOT, it follows that
>mountain bikers have several times the impact of hikers, since they travel
>several times as far! Idiot.


Thanks for reposting that. It's obvious that I was 100% CORRECT. That
is junk science.

>I believe calling someone an "idiot" straight away pretty much nails it.
>Augley merely relays information and you call him an "idiot" simply because
>your OPINION was challenged! Beyond that, you are famous for calling "junk
>science" if someome does not "publish" or conduct "research" as you would
>yet you have no issue calling him on it. The "Vandeman Double Standard" is
>alive and well!
>
>
>

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 12:37:00 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 07:31:39 GMT, "Jules Augley"
>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> "Jules Augley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>And where did I ever have a holier than thou attitude? I have never said
>>>>science is the pinnacle of intellectual achievement and I know, better
>>>>than
>>>>you I suspect, that the scientific method IS just a method of inquiry.
>>>>The
>>>>reason it has such popularity is because its so simple to understand and
>>>>yet
>>>>is also a powerful tool. Why not try reading Intellectual Impostures by
>>>>Sokal and Bricmont. They exposed scientific and intellectual frauds at
>>>>the
>>>>highest level.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>No2: I have never expected ANYONE to be in awe of my work or degrees
>>>
>>> I beg to differ. You proudly directed me to your "peer-reviewed,
>>> published paper" as the only way to be. I don't have much use for
>>> liars and phoneys. You are obviously prejudiced against mefor not
>>> publishing the same way you do, when that is completely IRRELEVANT.
>>>

>>Actually, the first two messages and replies in this thread from "Augley"
>>show you, Vandeman, as the one person expressing bias against this
>>information without even seeing it first only because it may reflect a
>>different opinion.
>>Quotes below from 5/21-23
>>Augley: "As for calling my bluff, once the project has been marked I can
>>post substantial pieces of the report. But for now, he conducted and
>>experiment in a regional park in Scotland. The experiment consisted of
>>measuring impacts caused by both mountain bikers and walkers on
>>vegetation,
>>in two different habitat types (woodland and grassland) and on three
>>different gradients (downhill, uphill and flat). Guess what, the results
>>of
>>his ANOVA showed NO SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE between mountain biking and
>>walking."
>>
>>
>>MV: "So, in other words, he made the same error in logic that all other
>>"researchers" did: ignoring the grossly different DISTANCES that hikers
>>vs.
>>bikers travel. Since he only measured impact PER FOOT, it follows that
>>mountain bikers have several times the impact of hikers, since they travel
>>several times as far! Idiot.

>
> Thanks for reposting that. It's obvious that I was 100% CORRECT. That
> is junk science.

You mean by calling him an "idiot" before even seeing the report...? Or you
attempting to force your definitions and variable application into their
research...?
You continue to erroneously apply "distance" but exclude "time"...
>
>>I believe calling someone an "idiot" straight away pretty much nails it.
>>Augley merely relays information and you call him an "idiot" simply
>>because
>>your OPINION was challenged! Beyond that, you are famous for calling "junk
>>science" if someome does not "publish" or conduct "research" as you would
>>yet you have no issue calling him on it. The "Vandeman Double Standard" is
>>alive and well!
>>

The "Vandeman Double Standard" even more evident by having no response here.
 
On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 14:16:48 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>
>"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 12:37:00 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email protected]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>> On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 07:31:39 GMT, "Jules Augley"
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> "Jules Augley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>And where did I ever have a holier than thou attitude? I have never said
>>>>>science is the pinnacle of intellectual achievement and I know, better
>>>>>than
>>>>>you I suspect, that the scientific method IS just a method of inquiry.
>>>>>The
>>>>>reason it has such popularity is because its so simple to understand and
>>>>>yet
>>>>>is also a powerful tool. Why not try reading Intellectual Impostures by
>>>>>Sokal and Bricmont. They exposed scientific and intellectual frauds at
>>>>>the
>>>>>highest level.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>No2: I have never expected ANYONE to be in awe of my work or degrees
>>>>
>>>> I beg to differ. You proudly directed me to your "peer-reviewed,
>>>> published paper" as the only way to be. I don't have much use for
>>>> liars and phoneys. You are obviously prejudiced against mefor not
>>>> publishing the same way you do, when that is completely IRRELEVANT.
>>>>
>>>Actually, the first two messages and replies in this thread from "Augley"
>>>show you, Vandeman, as the one person expressing bias against this
>>>information without even seeing it first only because it may reflect a
>>>different opinion.
>>>Quotes below from 5/21-23
>>>Augley: "As for calling my bluff, once the project has been marked I can
>>>post substantial pieces of the report. But for now, he conducted and
>>>experiment in a regional park in Scotland. The experiment consisted of
>>>measuring impacts caused by both mountain bikers and walkers on
>>>vegetation,
>>>in two different habitat types (woodland and grassland) and on three
>>>different gradients (downhill, uphill and flat). Guess what, the results
>>>of
>>>his ANOVA showed NO SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE between mountain biking and
>>>walking."
>>>
>>>
>>>MV: "So, in other words, he made the same error in logic that all other
>>>"researchers" did: ignoring the grossly different DISTANCES that hikers
>>>vs.
>>>bikers travel. Since he only measured impact PER FOOT, it follows that
>>>mountain bikers have several times the impact of hikers, since they travel
>>>several times as far! Idiot.

>>
>> Thanks for reposting that. It's obvious that I was 100% CORRECT. That
>> is junk science.

>You mean by calling him an "idiot" before even seeing the report...?


It's the first thing you learn in science: control for all variables.
He ignored distance travelled, one of the MAJOR VARIABLES. Ergo, this
"research" is nothing but junk science.
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 14:16:48 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 12:37:00 -0400, "S Curtiss" <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>news:[email protected]...
>>>>> On Fri, 02 Jun 2006 07:31:39 GMT, "Jules Augley"
>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Jules Augley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>And where did I ever have a holier than thou attitude? I have never
>>>>>>said
>>>>>>science is the pinnacle of intellectual achievement and I know, better
>>>>>>than
>>>>>>you I suspect, that the scientific method IS just a method of inquiry.
>>>>>>The
>>>>>>reason it has such popularity is because its so simple to understand
>>>>>>and
>>>>>>yet
>>>>>>is also a powerful tool. Why not try reading Intellectual Impostures
>>>>>>by
>>>>>>Sokal and Bricmont. They exposed scientific and intellectual frauds at
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>highest level.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>No2: I have never expected ANYONE to be in awe of my work or degrees
>>>>>
>>>>> I beg to differ. You proudly directed me to your "peer-reviewed,
>>>>> published paper" as the only way to be. I don't have much use for
>>>>> liars and phoneys. You are obviously prejudiced against mefor not
>>>>> publishing the same way you do, when that is completely IRRELEVANT.
>>>>>
>>>>Actually, the first two messages and replies in this thread from
>>>>"Augley"
>>>>show you, Vandeman, as the one person expressing bias against this
>>>>information without even seeing it first only because it may reflect a
>>>>different opinion.
>>>>Quotes below from 5/21-23
>>>>Augley: "As for calling my bluff, once the project has been marked I can
>>>>post substantial pieces of the report. But for now, he conducted and
>>>>experiment in a regional park in Scotland. The experiment consisted of
>>>>measuring impacts caused by both mountain bikers and walkers on
>>>>vegetation,
>>>>in two different habitat types (woodland and grassland) and on three
>>>>different gradients (downhill, uphill and flat). Guess what, the results
>>>>of
>>>>his ANOVA showed NO SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE between mountain biking and
>>>>walking."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>MV: "So, in other words, he made the same error in logic that all other
>>>>"researchers" did: ignoring the grossly different DISTANCES that hikers
>>>>vs.
>>>>bikers travel. Since he only measured impact PER FOOT, it follows that
>>>>mountain bikers have several times the impact of hikers, since they
>>>>travel
>>>>several times as far! Idiot.
>>>
>>> Thanks for reposting that. It's obvious that I was 100% CORRECT. That
>>> is junk science.

>>You mean by calling him an "idiot" before even seeing the report...?

>
> It's the first thing you learn in science: control for all variables.
> He ignored distance travelled, one of the MAJOR VARIABLES. Ergo, this
> "research" is nothing but junk science.

Control for all variables is not the same as controlling which variables are
determined to be relevant. You include "distance" and apply your own
definition as to the application and depth of validity it has. You also
ignore "time". Which, by your own logic, is a factor if human presence
itself is detrimental. You ignore the amount of "time" hikers spend and
focus only on your own weighted variable of "distance".
> ===
>
 
I'm not sure why my Vandeman filter is not working, But to see Vandeman
and Dolan going head to head is a thing of beauty. I guess I'll set up
a Dolan filter too. The storm clouds that were coming have disappears,
so I'm riding.

Edward Dolan wrote:

>"Jules Augley" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>
>
>>>I have. Start with http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande/scb7, which refutes
>>>the research you are doing before you have even done it, since you are
>>>falling into the same fallacy as all the other "researchers".
>>>
>>>

>>I have seen your website. I want to know what peer-reviewed work you have
>>had published. Presentations at U.C. Berkeley dont count. All I can see
>>on your website is a very short list of mostly books, although some
>>primary literature with specific relevance to mountain bikes, none of
>>which is yours by the way, that you say support your bizarre 'peeve'. I
>>see no mention of any actual research you have done, no data, nothing. You
>>claim to be an expert, well I want to see some objective evidence. You
>>could make sections of your phd and masters theses available for scrutiny?
>>How about that?. I should also point out, again, it was a student of mine
>>that did the research, and no this isnt me disowning it, its a good piece
>>of work (albeit with a lack of maturity in the writing that only years of
>>practice can remedy) and I would certainly view his work as more
>>scientifically objective and valid than any of the polemic you spew all
>>over your webspace. I do admire your tenacity (or ability to stick your
>>fingers in your ears and shout 'lalalala'), however, you could definitely
>>do with a change of focus and try to do something that would actually make
>>a difference to the world.
>>
>>

>
>Jules, I am the real expert on this matter of hiking vs. biking on trails.
>To my credit, I have not polluted my mind with any research. Yea, I am as
>pure as the driven snow.
>
>My credentials are that I hiked for 10 years almost every day for 8 months
>of the year all over the US. I did this when I was in my 30's during the
>late 60's and early 70's. During that time I never encountered a single bike
>on any of my sacred trails. I mean, it does not get any better than that!
>
>In more recent years I have encountered some bikes on my sacred trails. They
>do not belong on my scared trails. Who gives a good g.d. if they cause any
>trail destruction or not. I do not want them on my scared trails. Let them
>get their own g.d. trails.
>
>Like all scholars, you are blind to the real issues. You do not need any
>higher degrees to know what is appropriate and what is not. All you need is
>some common sense. I suggest you get out of your freaking ivory tower and go
>do some hiking in the wilderness and then tell us if you would like bikers
>along side of you.
>
>I am not a purist like Vandeman, but like him I do not like bikes on my
>sacred trails. He is more right than you are despite what your freaking
>research brings out. I am the quintessential hiker and I do not like bikers
>polluting my scared trails. That is what you have to wrap your mind around.
>Unless and until you do, you are irrelevant.
>
>Regards,
>
>Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
>aka
>Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota
>
>
>
>
 

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