Re: Want to be hit by a car while riding a bicycle? Wear a helmet!



On 11 Sep 2006 20:27:37 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

>
>Kenny wrote:
>> Kenny wrote:
>> > Found this by way of Digg. http://tinyurl.com/m92br

>>
>> Forgot about this link.
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/odxv3

>
>Dear Kenny,
>
>Thanks--interesting article technical article, so I'll shamelessly
>hijack it to rec.bicycles.tech.
>
>Cheers,
>
>Carl Fogel


And here's the link to Dr. Walker's pdf, with oodles of graphs:

http://www.drianwalker.com/overtaking/overtakingprobrief.pdf

It's mentioned at the end of the other articles, but somehow I suspect
that some posters may not read that far.

CF
 
E

Ed Pirrero

Guest
[email protected] wrote:
> On 11 Sep 2006 20:27:37 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>
> >
> >Kenny wrote:
> >> Kenny wrote:
> >> > Found this by way of Digg. http://tinyurl.com/m92br
> >>
> >> Forgot about this link.
> >>
> >> http://tinyurl.com/odxv3

> >
> >Dear Kenny,
> >
> >Thanks--interesting article technical article, so I'll shamelessly
> >hijack it to rec.bicycles.tech.
> >
> >Cheers,
> >
> >Carl Fogel

>
> And here's the link to Dr. Walker's pdf, with oodles of graphs:
>
> http://www.drianwalker.com/overtaking/overtakingprobrief.pdf
>
> It's mentioned at the end of the other articles, but somehow I suspect
> that some posters may not read that far.



No, they'll get to the part where he says helmets are useful in
low-speed crashes, and could be a benefit for children, then dismiss
the rest out of hand.

E.P.
 
C

Chris Neary

Guest
>>> > Found this by way of Digg. http://tinyurl.com/m92br
>>>
>>> Forgot about this link.
>>>
>>> http://tinyurl.com/odxv3

>>
>>Dear Kenny,
>>
>>Thanks--interesting article technical article, so I'll shamelessly
>>hijack it to rec.bicycles.tech.
>>
>>Cheers,
>>
>>Carl Fogel

>
>And here's the link to Dr. Walker's pdf, with oodles of graphs:
>
>http://www.drianwalker.com/overtaking/overtakingprobrief.pdf
>
>It's mentioned at the end of the other articles, but somehow I suspect
>that some posters may not read that far.


Interesting research, though I'd love to see the raw data rather than the
few summarized graphs provided.

I would point out that all the provided average passing distances exceed the
minimum legal distance used in some states (3 feet). It would be valuable to
see standard deviations for the various datasets to determine what portion
of the different vehicle classes failed to meet the legal standard.

The other aspect that jumps out at me is the results are apt to be
culturally influenced, so it would be unwise to expect the same results
(good or bad) elsewhere.


Chris Neary
[email protected]

"Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: what more could
you ask of life? Bicycling combined all the elements I
loved" - Adapted from a quotation by Charles Lindbergh
 
L

landotter

Guest
[email protected] wrote:
> Kenny wrote:
> > Kenny wrote:
> > > Found this by way of Digg. http://tinyurl.com/m92br

> >
> > Forgot about this link.
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/odxv3

>
> Dear Kenny,
>
> Thanks--interesting article technical article, so I'll shamelessly
> hijack it to rec.bicycles.tech.
>



Where can I get a Bell(tm) brand Rapunzel Wig? Always looking for that
safety edge!
 
R

RonSonic

Guest
On 12 Sep 2006 07:12:37 -0700, "landotter" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>[email protected] wrote:
>> Kenny wrote:
>> > Kenny wrote:
>> > > Found this by way of Digg. http://tinyurl.com/m92br
>> >
>> > Forgot about this link.
>> >
>> > http://tinyurl.com/odxv3

>>
>> Dear Kenny,
>>
>> Thanks--interesting article technical article, so I'll shamelessly
>> hijack it to rec.bicycles.tech.
>>

>
>
>Where can I get a Bell(tm) brand Rapunzel Wig? Always looking for that
>safety edge!


Lucky, there ain't a wig I could wear that'd fool 'em.

Ron
 
Some very amusing blog entries from the Guardian on topic:

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/archives/2006/09/12/on_their_heads_be_it.html

It's heartening to see that civil discourse is international.

Now all I want to know is how were the measurements made.
Cheers,
MD


[email protected] wrote:
> Kenny wrote:
> > Kenny wrote:
> > > Found this by way of Digg. http://tinyurl.com/m92br

> >
> > Forgot about this link.
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/odxv3

>
> Dear Kenny,
>
> Thanks--interesting article technical article, so I'll shamelessly
> hijack it to rec.bicycles.tech.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel
 
C

Chalo

Guest
RonSonic wrote:
>
> Lucky, there ain't a wig I could wear that'd fool 'em.


Aye-- if drivers ever mistook me for a woman, they might be inclined to
run me over as an act of mercy.

Chalo
 
W

Wayne Pein

Guest
He rode between 0.25 meters (10 inches; a real “gutter bunny”) and 1.25
meters (4 feet 1 inch; about the location of a typical US bike lane
stripe) from road edge. This is not sufficient distance to effect
positive change in motorists. He merely used up some of the passing
clearance that UK motorists typically afford a bicyclist riding such
distance from the side. I also would like to see his data cross
tabulated for distance from edge, passing distance, and lane width. It
would be interesting to see if his data are skewed.

I surmise that there is a tipping point at which a bicyclist uses enough
of available lane width that it compels motorists to give considerably
more clearance. That is my experience here in the US anyway.

Wayne
 
On 12 Sep 2006 12:33:08 -0700, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Some very amusing blog entries from the Guardian on topic:
>
>http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/archives/2006/09/12/on_their_heads_be_it.html
>
>It's heartening to see that civil discourse is international.
>
>Now all I want to know is how were the measurements made.
>Cheers,
>MD
>
>
>[email protected] wrote:
>> Kenny wrote:
>> > Kenny wrote:
>> > > Found this by way of Digg. http://tinyurl.com/m92br
>> >
>> > Forgot about this link.
>> >
>> > http://tinyurl.com/odxv3

>>
>> Dear Kenny,
>>
>> Thanks--interesting article technical article, so I'll shamelessly
>> hijack it to rec.bicycles.tech.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Carl Fogel


Dear YC,

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/691047edda1c010e

Cheers,

Carl Fogel
 
But did he use a ruler? Laser range finder? Or just eyeball it?

Wayne Pein wrote:
> He rode between 0.25 meters (10 inches; a real "gutter bunny") and 1.25
> meters (4 feet 1 inch; about the location of a typical US bike lane
> stripe) from road edge. This is not sufficient distance to effect
> positive change in motorists. He merely used up some of the passing
> clearance that UK motorists typically afford a bicyclist riding such
> distance from the side. I also would like to see his data cross
> tabulated for distance from edge, passing distance, and lane width. It
> would be interesting to see if his data are skewed.
>
> I surmise that there is a tipping point at which a bicyclist uses enough
> of available lane width that it compels motorists to give considerably
> more clearance. That is my experience here in the US anyway.
>
> Wayne
 
R

RonSonic

Guest
On 12 Sep 2006 13:18:14 -0700, "Chalo" <[email protected]> wrote:

>RonSonic wrote:
>>
>> Lucky, there ain't a wig I could wear that'd fool 'em.

>
>Aye-- if drivers ever mistook me for a woman, they might be inclined to
>run me over as an act of mercy.


And risk that much damage to the vehicle?

I remember riding along on a paved trail and approaching this alarming figure
from behind. Huge bulky shoulders over bikini straps, short shorts and shaved
legs. Turned out to be a serious clydesdale tri guy with a HRM strap and a water
bottle hanging around his neck.

Ron
 
M

Marlene Blanshay

Guest
Wayne Pein wrote:
> He rode between 0.25 meters (10 inches; a real “gutter bunny”) and 1.25
> meters (4 feet 1 inch; about the location of a typical US bike lane
> stripe) from road edge. This is not sufficient distance to effect
> positive change in motorists. He merely used up some of the passing
> clearance that UK motorists typically afford a bicyclist riding such
> distance from the side. I also would like to see his data cross
> tabulated for distance from edge, passing distance, and lane width. It
> would be interesting to see if his data are skewed.
>
> I surmise that there is a tipping point at which a bicyclist uses enough
> of available lane width that it compels motorists to give considerably
> more clearance. That is my experience here in the US anyway.
>
> Wayne
>

i have noticed in the last few weeks that american drivers have a
tendency to drive VERY CLOSE to the curb. A few times I've been
practically grazed by cars passing me and noticed they were from the US.
This on a designated shared road that has millions of signs saying, "in
a hurry? Take the highway!"

it's like they have no concept of a shared road or simply begrudge
yielding any space. Other people have noticed this as well, and I've
seen it in american cities. Cars drive by like 2 inches from the
sidewalk. No wonder i hear so many horror stories from cyclists... as
bad as drivers here are, they at least give you some leeway even if they
honk or yell at you.
 
P

(PeteCresswell)

Guest
Per Marlene Blanshay:
>i have noticed in the last few weeks that american drivers have a
>tendency to drive VERY CLOSE to the curb. A few times I've been
>practically grazed by cars passing me and noticed they were from the US.
>This on a designated shared road that has millions of signs saying, "in
>a hurry? Take the highway!"
>
> it's like they have no concept of a shared road or simply begrudge
>yielding any space. Other people have noticed this as well...


What country are you in?

One thing to bear in mind is that, as far as I know, there is no compulsory
driver training in the USA. Driving here (USA), and driving in Germany my
take is that in Germany almost everybody is playing by the same set of rules...
but here in the USA few are.

To wit, try starting a thread on the proper way to enter a controlled access
highway. The result will be a very long series of contradictory rants.
--
PeteCresswell
 
4

41

Guest
Chalo wrote:
> RonSonic wrote:
> >
> > Lucky, there ain't a wig I could wear that'd fool 'em.

>
> Aye-- if drivers ever mistook me for a woman, they might be inclined to
> run me over as an act of mercy.


But do you really think that guy who did wear the wig was mistaken for
a woman either? I bet when they came up behind him, it was more like,
blimey, a bloody trannie, stear clear!
 
P

Paul Hobson

Guest
> Wayne Pein wrote:
>> He rode between 0.25 meters (10 inches; a real "gutter bunny") and 1.25
>> meters (4 feet 1 inch; about the location of a typical US bike lane
>> stripe) from road edge. This is not sufficient distance to effect
>> positive change in motorists. He merely used up some of the passing
>> clearance that UK motorists typically afford a bicyclist riding such
>> distance from the side. I also would like to see his data cross
>> tabulated for distance from edge, passing distance, and lane width. It
>> would be interesting to see if his data are skewed.


[email protected] wrote:
> But did he use a ruler? Laser range finder? Or just eyeball it?


Sonic/doppler thingamabob[1]
--
Paul M. Hobson
Georgia Institute of Technology
..:change the f to ph to reply:.
[1]scientifically speaking, of course
 
K

Kristian M Zoerhoff

Guest
In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]lid says...
>
> What country are you in?


I believe Marlene was in Canada. Eh.

> One thing to bear in mind is that, as far as I know, there is no compulsory
> driver training in the USA.


In every state I've lived in, driver's ed was part of the standard curriculum
in high school, usually for students aged 15-16. Here in Illinois, schools are
required by state law to teach it. Naturally, it's the bare minimum of
training, but it does exist.

For those moving to the US, most every state requires you to pass a road test
the first time you get a license (this sometimes applies when moving between
states as well). The problem is that road tests aren't required very often
after that, sometimes only after you accumulate several traffic tickets, or
reach a certain advanced age (75 or 80).

Training in the US could be a lot better, but it's as much a problem of
enforcement as anything else.

> Driving here (USA), and driving in Germany my
> take is that in Germany almost everybody is playing by the same set of rules...
> but here in the USA few are.


My take is that the rules in Germany are ruthlessly enforced, and the training
is longer and more detailed. Most drivers in the US play by the rules, but it
seems that some folks do get fuzzy on just what the rules are.

> To wit, try starting a thread on the proper way to enter a controlled access
> highway. The result will be a very long series of contradictory rants.


Since bikes are banned from controlled-access freeways in most US states, why
bother :)

[Redirecting follow-ups to r.b.misc. Not much tech in this post.]

--

__o Kristian Zoerhoff
_'\(,_ [email protected]
(_)/ (_)
 
D

Dane Buson

Guest
In rec.bicycles.misc 41 <[email protected]> wrote:
> Chalo wrote:
>> RonSonic wrote:
>> >
>> > Lucky, there ain't a wig I could wear that'd fool 'em.

>>
>> Aye-- if drivers ever mistook me for a woman, they might be inclined to
>> run me over as an act of mercy.

>
> But do you really think that guy who did wear the wig was mistaken for
> a woman either? I bet when they came up behind him, it was more like,
> blimey, a bloody trannie, stear clear!


Oh, I don't know. I'm a fairly big fellow, and I have quite a bit of
body hair, but I also have long hair. I've been on the receiving end of
a few wolf whistles from passing cars. Of course when I turned towards
them as they passed, they looked awfully sheepish.

It can be hard to pick out the smaller details when you're passing
someone in a car.

--
Dane Buson - [email protected]
`They didn't call him Erik Bloodaxe because he was good with children.'
--National Geograhic, May 2000
 
S

swiftcycler

Guest
I disagree with that observation totally. I find as a motorists that
Americans drive too close to the center line. I think that mainly
there are a lot of lonely people out there who both think that they own
the road and also want to let anyone coming against them that they are
willing to assert their claims. However, this would be an indication
that the driver would be male. I have also observed that many women
won't cross the yellow line even when they are endangering a pedestrian
coming against the traffic. They have this asnine view of toeing the
line, strictly adhering to the law, which can be rather annoying. I
find on these narrow country roads I ride that men in their pick-ups
will not only speed but cross the yellow lines when passing. Women
will speed but rarely cross the yellow lines even with a clear view of
the empty road ahead. However, of course there are exceptions.
Marlene Blanshay wrote:
> Wayne Pein wrote:
> > He rode between 0.25 meters (10 inches; a real "gutter bunny") and 1.25
> > meters (4 feet 1 inch; about the location of a typical US bike lane
> > stripe) from road edge. This is not sufficient distance to effect
> > positive change in motorists. He merely used up some of the passing
> > clearance that UK motorists typically afford a bicyclist riding such
> > distance from the side. I also would like to see his data cross
> > tabulated for distance from edge, passing distance, and lane width. It
> > would be interesting to see if his data are skewed.
> >
> > I surmise that there is a tipping point at which a bicyclist uses enough
> > of available lane width that it compels motorists to give considerably
> > more clearance. That is my experience here in the US anyway.
> >
> > Wayne
> >

> i have noticed in the last few weeks that american drivers have a
> tendency to drive VERY CLOSE to the curb. A few times I've been
> practically grazed by cars passing me and noticed they were from the US.
> This on a designated shared road that has millions of signs saying, "in
> a hurry? Take the highway!"
>
> it's like they have no concept of a shared road or simply begrudge
> yielding any space. Other people have noticed this as well, and I've
> seen it in american cities. Cars drive by like 2 inches from the
> sidewalk. No wonder i hear so many horror stories from cyclists... as
> bad as drivers here are, they at least give you some leeway even if they
> honk or yell at you.
 
Thanks Carl. Although I'm somewhat disappointed. I was hoping it was
done with two insert cars fitted with theodolites.

[email protected] wrote:
> On 12 Sep 2006 12:33:08 -0700, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> >Some very amusing blog entries from the Guardian on topic:
> >
> >http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/news/archives/2006/09/12/on_their_heads_be_it.html
> >
> >It's heartening to see that civil discourse is international.
> >
> >Now all I want to know is how were the measurements made.
> >Cheers,
> >MD
> >
> >
> >[email protected] wrote:
> >> Kenny wrote:
> >> > Kenny wrote:
> >> > > Found this by way of Digg. http://tinyurl.com/m92br
> >> >
> >> > Forgot about this link.
> >> >
> >> > http://tinyurl.com/odxv3
> >>
> >> Dear Kenny,
> >>
> >> Thanks--interesting article technical article, so I'll shamelessly
> >> hijack it to rec.bicycles.tech.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> Carl Fogel

>
> Dear YC,
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.tech/msg/691047edda1c010e
>
> Cheers,
>
> Carl Fogel