Re: Where the cyclists in America belong: back alleys, gutters and sidewalks



D

Don Klipstein

Guest
In article <[email protected]>, Gunner Asch wrote:
>On Sun, 20 Apr 2008 13:29:51 -0500, "Edward Dolan" <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>> But thats the typical arrogance of many bike riders. They simply
>>> cannot stand critism for their elitist outlook or their arrogance and
>>> utter stupidity.
>>>
>>> No wonder many die as the result of their actions. Darwin events
>>> actually.
>>>
>>> Pity
>>>
>>> Gunner, who rides Cannondale, Trek, Paramount, but doesnt try to bully
>>> vehicles outweighing him by many tons.

>>
>>Nor do I! But you have a peculiar attitude for someone who rides bicycles.
>>Every cyclist who has ever ridden his bike on the open road has experienced
>>motorists who bully them because they do not want them on the road - period!
>>It is a wonder to me that more cyclists do not track down such motorists and
>>literally murder them!

>
>And everyone who has ever drivin a motor vehicle around bike riders
>has had the bike riders bully them.


I have a lot of experience driving both cars and bicycles.

The main offense of cyclists against cars is running red lights while
cars that have green lights have expectations of right-of-way.
Second to that, is cyclists stopping less for stop signs than cars do.

Third place is cyclists doing less yielding to the vehicle to the right
(when both vehicles arrive at the intersection at the same time) at
intersections controlled by stop signs or at uncontrolled
intersections.

4th place is cyclists getting adventurous at intersections controlled by
stop signs, while not all roads entering the intersection are required to
stop.

Motorists also offend. In my experience, motorists offend cyclists
worst by shifting lanes without prior warning via a turn signal. This
includes the "Prime Offense" of first shifting onto a bike lane upon
approach to a right turn, and afterwards engaging the turn signal (if the
turn signal is engaged at all).
I see all too many motorists failing to use turn signals at all,
delaying use of turn signals until turning the steering wheel, not
signaling lane changes, and only sometimes signaling lane changes due to
failing to signal lane change to and/or from a parking lane!

As bad as cyclists do such feats, I see both as a cyclist and as a
motorist even worse being jaywalkers in counties with "generous juries".

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])
 
Tom Keats:

> In article <C4327B94.21839%[email protected]>,
> Steve Ball <[email protected]> writes:
>> Tom Keats:
>>
>>> In article <[email protected]>,
>>> [email protected] (Don Klipstein) writes:
>>>
>>>> The main offense of cyclists against cars is running red lights while
>>>> cars that have green lights have expectations of right-of-way.
>>>
>>> ********! Riders do /not/ suicidally barge into
>>> cross traffic. No rational person does.

>>
>> He didn't say they did. Just that they stop bikes run far more red lights
>> than cars generally do.

>
> If a vehicle operator goes through a red light at a minor
> intersection when there's no cross-traffic, where's the harm?


I guess the harm is that's what good for the goose has to be good for the
gander. If cyclists can decide which traffic signs to obey and when, why not
motorists? I mean, if I car goes through a red light when there's no traffic
on then intersecting road, where's the harm? Do you want to apply this to
speed limits too? (Cyclists - even me - regularly exceed the posted 30 kph
in Sydney's Centennial park; motorists get booked.)

We have fundamentally different views here in that I enjoy my car, whereas
you never want to own one, but try to make room for that not all motorists
are the enemy but many, like a lot of people people, if you choose to make
them so, will accept the mantle.

Steve = : ^ )
 
On Apr 21, 6:48 am, Steve Ball <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> I guess the harm is that's what good for the goose has to be good for the
> gander. If cyclists can decide which traffic signs to obey and when, why not
> motorists? I mean, if I car goes through a red light when there's no traffic
> on then intersecting road, where's the harm? Do you want to apply this to
> speed limits too? (Cyclists - even me - regularly exceed the posted 30 kph
> in Sydney's Centennial park; motorists get booked.)


From what I see here in America, what's good for the goose is indeed
good for the gander. That is, everyone violates traffic laws.

I have a stop sign less than 100 yards from where I'm typing this.
Only about half the motorists come to a complete stop. I regularly
see motorists going through red lights. That's most often by
squeezing through a fresh red before cross traffic starts up, but I
regularly see deliberate disobedience of a light that was long red
(including one memorable one by a cop - no siren or emergency lights;
he just didn't want to wait). I see a majority of motorists exceeding
speed limits, and neglecting turn signals before turning or changing
lanes. I regularly see motorists violating the laws in other ways as
well - the list could go on and on.

Bicyclists and pedestrians do the same, of course. I believe the
major difference is not in frequency of disobedience, but in
consequences of disobedience. Bicyclists and pedestrians almost never
injure anyone but themselves by their mistakes. Motorists in America
routinely kill tens of thousands per year.

(However, that's does NOT give credence to the "bicycling is
dangerous!!!" nonsense. Most of those killed by motorists are
motorists. Only a very few are cyclists.)

In summary: People will not be perfect in their obedience to laws,
whether they are on foot, on two wheels or on four (or more). Yes,
the legal system does generally concentrate on motorist violations,
but that's only logical, since motorist offenses are the ones that do
almost all the harm.

- Frank Krygowski
 
On Apr 21, 11:29 am, [email protected] wrote:
> On Apr 21, 6:48 am, Steve Ball <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I guess the harm is that's what good for the goose has to be good for the
> > gander. If cyclists can decide which traffic signs to obey and when, whynot
> > motorists? I mean, if I car goes through a red light when there's no traffic
> > on then intersecting road, where's the harm? Do you want to apply this to
> > speed limits too? (Cyclists - even me - regularly exceed the posted 30 kph
> > in Sydney's Centennial park; motorists get booked.)

>
> From what I see here in America, what's good for the goose is indeed
> good for the gander.  That is, everyone violates traffic laws.
>
> I have a stop sign less than 100 yards from where I'm typing this.
> Only about half the motorists come to a complete stop.  I regularly
> see motorists going through red lights.  That's most often by
> squeezing through a fresh red before cross traffic starts up, but I
> regularly see deliberate disobedience of a light that was long red
> (including one memorable one by a cop - no siren or emergency lights;
> he just didn't want to wait).  I see a majority of motorists exceeding
> speed limits, and neglecting turn signals before turning or changing
> lanes.  I regularly see motorists violating the laws in other ways as
> well - the list could go on and on.
>
> Bicyclists and pedestrians do the same, of course.  I believe the
> major difference is not in frequency of disobedience, but in
> consequences of disobedience.  Bicyclists and pedestrians almost never
> injure anyone but themselves by their mistakes.  Motorists in America
> routinely kill tens of thousands per year.
>
> (However, that's does NOT give credence to the "bicycling is
> dangerous!!!" nonsense.  Most of those killed by motorists are
> motorists.  Only a very few are cyclists.)
>
> In summary:  People will not be perfect in their obedience to laws,
> whether they are on foot, on two wheels or on four (or more).  Yes,
> the legal system does generally concentrate on motorist violations,
> but that's only logical, since motorist offenses are the ones that do
> almost all the harm.
>
> - Frank Krygowski


I've thought we'd never agree on something.

What is it we disagree on? Oh, that riding a bike in traffic is safe.
But how can it be if drivers routinely ignore the laws, or simply
there are no good laws?
 
On Apr 21, 4:41 pm, ComandanteBanana <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Apr 21, 11:29 am, [email protected] wrote:
>
>
> > From what I see here in America, what's good for the goose is indeed
> > good for the gander. That is, everyone violates traffic laws.

>
> > I have a stop sign less than 100 yards from where I'm typing this.
> > Only about half the motorists come to a complete stop. I regularly
> > see motorists going through red lights. That's most often by
> > squeezing through a fresh red before cross traffic starts up, but I
> > regularly see deliberate disobedience of a light that was long red
> > (including one memorable one by a cop - no siren or emergency lights;
> > he just didn't want to wait). I see a majority of motorists exceeding
> > speed limits, and neglecting turn signals before turning or changing
> > lanes. I regularly see motorists violating the laws in other ways as
> > well - the list could go on and on.

>
> > Bicyclists and pedestrians do the same, of course. I believe the
> > major difference is not in frequency of disobedience, but in
> > consequences of disobedience. Bicyclists and pedestrians almost never
> > injure anyone but themselves by their mistakes. Motorists in America
> > routinely kill tens of thousands per year.

>
> > (However, that's does NOT give credence to the "bicycling is
> > dangerous!!!" nonsense. Most of those killed by motorists are
> > motorists. Only a very few are cyclists.)

>
> > In summary: People will not be perfect in their obedience to laws,
> > whether they are on foot, on two wheels or on four (or more). Yes,
> > the legal system does generally concentrate on motorist violations,
> > but that's only logical, since motorist offenses are the ones that do
> > almost all the harm.

>
> > - Frank Krygowski

>
> I've thought we'd never agree on something.
>
> What is it we disagree on? Oh, that riding a bike in traffic is safe.
> But how can it be if drivers routinely ignore the laws, or simply
> there are no good laws?


You confuse disobedience with danger.

To evaluate disobedience of laws related to a given activity, you
observe people and see how often they disobey the laws applying to
that activity.

To evaluate the danger of an activity, you observe how much time
people spend in the activity, and you count how often they are killed
or seriously injured per unit time.

Bicyclists are very, very rarely killed or seriously injured. Again:
roughly fifteen MILLION miles of cycling per fatality. Alternately,
dedicated riders that do over 2500 miles per year, including commuting
in traffic, average 11 years between accidents that cost a mere $50.

Most people are pretty inept at cycling. But still, they don't get
seriously injured or killed. The most typical bike injury is a
skinned knee.

Even someone as fearful as you should be able to deal with the
occasional skinned knee. So again: quit whining.

- Frank Krygowski
 
In article <C432AE33.2184B%[email protected]>,
Steve Ball <[email protected]> writes:
> Tom Keats:
>
>> In article <C4327B94.21839%[email protected]>,
>> Steve Ball <[email protected]> writes:
>>> Tom Keats:
>>>
>>>> In article <[email protected]>,
>>>> [email protected] (Don Klipstein) writes:
>>>>
>>>>> The main offense of cyclists against cars is running red lights while
>>>>> cars that have green lights have expectations of right-of-way.
>>>>
>>>> ********! Riders do /not/ suicidally barge into
>>>> cross traffic. No rational person does.
>>>
>>> He didn't say they did. Just that they stop bikes run far more red lights
>>> than cars generally do.

>>
>> If a vehicle operator goes through a red light at a minor
>> intersection when there's no cross-traffic, where's the harm?

>
> I guess the harm is that's what good for the goose has to be good for the
> gander. If cyclists can decide which traffic signs to obey and when, why not
> motorists?


That is indeed what happens in real life.

> I mean, if I car goes through a red light when there's no traffic
> on then intersecting road, where's the harm?


Exactly. As long as drivers are as on-the-ball wrt
watching out for cross traffic as cyclists are.

> Do you want to apply this to
> speed limits too? (Cyclists - even me - regularly exceed the posted 30 kph
> in Sydney's Centennial park; motorists get booked.)


Drivers' speeds don't really affect cyclists as much
as people would like to think. Yes, they do have an
effect, but we can deal with it.

> We have fundamentally different views here in that I enjoy my car, whereas
> you never want to own one, but try to make room for that not all motorists
> are the enemy


It seems to me that drivers tend to view cyclists as
"the enemy" more than vice verso. In this very subthread,
cyclists are accused of "bullying" drivers. Go figure.
We and our 20-pound machines are out to make life miserable
for people in their 3-ton, rolling, climate-controlled
living rooms. Yeah, right.

> but many, like a lot of people people, if you choose to make
> them so, will accept the mantle.


This is just Usenet. In real life, people are slightly more
adept at getting along with each other.

I'm quite prepared to get along nicely with reasonable,
sociable people -- even on the streets & roads.

And I'm certainly no bully. Not many riders are.

Many more drivers are.


cheers,
Tom
--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca
 
On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 03:26:52 -0700, [email protected] (Tom Keats)
wrote:

>And I'm certainly no bully. Not many riders are.
>
>Many more drivers are.



Your very one sided and biased opinion is noted.

Gunner

Political Correctness is a doctrine fostered by a delusional,
illogical liberal minority, and rabidly promoted by an
unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the
proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.
 
Gunner Asch wrote:
> [...]
> You seem to forget that Denial is not a river in Egypt.
>

Denial is a full-size SUV from GM, but they mistakenly transpose it as
"Denali".

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Gunner Asch <[email protected]> writes:
> On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 03:26:52 -0700, [email protected] (Tom Keats)
> wrote:
>
>>And I'm certainly no bully. Not many riders are.
>>
>>Many more drivers are.

>
>
> Your very one sided and biased opinion is noted.


Gooood for you. Finish your dinner without getting
any on your clothes, and you'll get a nice dessert.


--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Gunner Asch <[email protected]> writes:

> Felcher..Im a bike rider too. Prejudices my ass. I also drive some
> 65,000 miles a year, a fair amount of it in urban area with bike
> riders. And you?


Goof.

My bikes /are/ my cars.

So you drive 65,000 miles a year in an urban area fraught
with bike riders such as myself, eh?

If ya wanna be proud of that, go ahead. Knock yerself out.

>>You use question marks too much.

>
> You seem to forget that Denial is not a river in Egypt.


At least I know how to punctuate. <shrug> Forgive me.
I'm literate.

--
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca
 
On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 02:21:42 -0700, [email protected] (Tom Keats)
wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> Gunner Asch <[email protected]> writes:
>
>> Felcher..Im a bike rider too. Prejudices my ass. I also drive some
>> 65,000 miles a year, a fair amount of it in urban area with bike
>> riders. And you?

>
>Goof.
>
>My bikes /are/ my cars.


Bummer. Couldnt afford a motor vehicle eh?
>
>So you drive 65,000 miles a year in an urban area fraught
>with bike riders such as myself, eh?


Urban and rural.
>
>If ya wanna be proud of that, go ahead. Knock yerself out.


Why shouldnt I be?
>
>>>You use question marks too much.

>>
>> You seem to forget that Denial is not a river in Egypt.

>
>At least I know how to punctuate. <shrug> Forgive me.
>I'm literate.


Spelling/punctuation flames are the last resort of the buffoon.

Gunner
 
On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 01:58:51 -0700, [email protected] (Tom Keats)
wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> Gunner Asch <[email protected]> writes:
>> On Wed, 23 Apr 2008 03:26:52 -0700, [email protected] (Tom Keats)
>> wrote:
>>
>>>And I'm certainly no bully. Not many riders are.
>>>
>>>Many more drivers are.

>>
>>
>> Your very one sided and biased opinion is noted.

>
>Gooood for you. Finish your dinner without getting
>any on your clothes, and you'll get a nice dessert.



ooooh! Coookieess!

Gunner
 
"Tom Keats" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

>
> Gooood for you. Finish your dinner without getting
> any on your clothes, and you'll get a nice dessert.
>



is he permitted to take his clothes off to accomplish the task?

mk5000

Percy Alleline: Merlin is the fruit of a long cultivation by certain people
in the circus. People who are bound to me as I am to them. People who are
not at all entertained by the failure rate about this place. There's been
too much blown, too much lost, too much wasted. Too many scandals. I've said
so many times, but I might as well have talked to the wind for all the heed
he paid me.
Control: "He" means me, George.
Percy Alleline: The ordinary principles of tradecraft and security have gone
to the wall in this service. It's all "divide and rule," stimulated from the
top.
Control: Me again.
Percy Alleline: We're losing our livelihood. Our self-respect. We've had
enough. We've had a bellyful, in fact.
Control: And like everybody who's ever had enough, he wants more! --Tiner
Tailor Soldier Spy
 
In article <[email protected]>,
Gunner <[email protected]> writes:
> On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 02:21:42 -0700, [email protected] (Tom Keats)
> wrote:
>
>>In article <[email protected]>,
>> Gunner Asch <[email protected]> writes:
>>
>>> Felcher..Im a bike rider too. Prejudices my ass. I also drive some
>>> 65,000 miles a year, a fair amount of it in urban area with bike
>>> riders. And you?

>>
>>Goof.
>>
>>My bikes /are/ my cars.

>
> Bummer. Couldnt afford a motor vehicle eh?


Actually, yes, I easily could.
But I choose not to obtain or
maintain one.

>>So you drive 65,000 miles a year in an urban area fraught
>>with bike riders such as myself, eh?

>
> Urban and rural.


And you gripe about being "bullied" by cyclists.

>>If ya wanna be proud of that, go ahead. Knock yerself out.

>
> Why shouldnt I be?


Because everybody is going somewhere.
It's not a special thing.

Milage doesn't make the man.

>>>>You use question marks too much.
>>>
>>> You seem to forget that Denial is not a river in Egypt.

>>
>>At least I know how to punctuate. <shrug> Forgive me.
>>I'm literate.

>
> Spelling/punctuation flames are the last resort of the buffoon.


That's what uneducated people like to say.
It assuages their feelings of inferiority.

If you've lost your Rig licence, perhaps SATs
will help you get it back.

I also recommend growing an heart. And maybe a spine,
if you feel so bullied by bicyclists.

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca
 
On Fri, 25 Apr 2008 02:22:28 -0700, [email protected] (Tom Keats)
wrote:

>In article <[email protected]>,
> Gunner <[email protected]> writes:
>> On Thu, 24 Apr 2008 02:21:42 -0700, [email protected] (Tom Keats)
>> wrote:
>>
>>>In article <[email protected]>,
>>> Gunner Asch <[email protected]> writes:
>>>
>>>> Felcher..Im a bike rider too. Prejudices my ass. I also drive some
>>>> 65,000 miles a year, a fair amount of it in urban area with bike
>>>> riders. And you?
>>>
>>>Goof.
>>>
>>>My bikes /are/ my cars.

>>
>> Bummer. Couldnt afford a motor vehicle eh?

>
>Actually, yes, I easily could.
>But I choose not to obtain or
>maintain one.


So you cant come up with the money. Shrug..thats ok. And posting from
the library is ok too. No one slights you for that.
>
>>>So you drive 65,000 miles a year in an urban area fraught
>>>with bike riders such as myself, eh?

>>
>> Urban and rural.

>
>And you gripe about being "bullied" by cyclists.


On occasion, yes.
>
>>>If ya wanna be proud of that, go ahead. Knock yerself out.

>>
>> Why shouldnt I be?

>
>Because everybody is going somewhere.
>It's not a special thing.


Yes and? Its not the trip, but the journey.
>
>Milage doesn't make the man.


It sure indicates if someone is a safe and concientious driver.
>
>>>>>You use question marks too much.
>>>>
>>>> You seem to forget that Denial is not a river in Egypt.
>>>
>>>At least I know how to punctuate. <shrug> Forgive me.
>>>I'm literate.

>>
>> Spelling/punctuation flames are the last resort of the buffoon.

>
>That's what uneducated people like to say.
>It assuages their feelings of inferiority.


The inferior engage in spelling/punctuation flames. Thats all they
have. Shrug.
I take it you have never read the Mark Twain quote on the subject?
>
>If you've lost your Rig licence, perhaps SATs
>will help you get it back.


Which rig license might that be?
>
>I also recommend growing an heart. And maybe a spine,
>if you feel so bullied by bicyclists.


So then its ok to hit bicyclists when they intentionally ignore stop
lights, swerve in and out of truck traffic and so forth? I shouldnt
feel some trepidation about turning one into a bloody smear on the
pavement?

Son..if I didnt have a heart, if I didnt care about them, many would
be dead of their own stupidity.

Be thankful for people like me. Its the reason you are still alive.

Gunner
 
"Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Please be more cryptic. You are starting to make some sense to me.
>
> Regards,
>
>


I looked it up and he is from SYRACUSE>..but he doesn;t say HAYAT or CAYAT
or anything like those upstate new yorkers.
It is just weird. the inflections. not the voice.
the way he would drag certain words out.


mk5000

Martine Love: I know you, Terry. And I know your mates. You've always been
looking for the big score. The one that makes sense of everything. I have it
for you.
Terry Leather: What?
Martine Love: A bank.
Terry Leather: A bank, as in rob? How would you know about a bank?
Martine Love: I've been seeing this guy, runs his own business - security
systems. Next month they're installing new alarms in a bank in Marylebone.
Seems like the trains have been setting off the tremble alarms in the vault,
and so they've had to turn them off. So for a week or so, they won't have
any.
Terry Leather: Now why would he tell you all this?
Martine Love: We were having a laugh about it. Imagine if half the villains
in London knew about this, he said. And I thought, I know half the villains
in London. I grew up with some of them. --The Bank Job
 
"Edward Dolan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> I cannot believe how incredibly stupid you are. I mean rock-hard "I
> didn't
> say a bad job I said a ****-POOR job" stupid. Dehydrated-rock-hard
> stupid.
> Stupid so stupid that it goes way beyond the stupid we know into a whole
> different dimension of stupid. You are trans-stupid stupid. Meta-stupid.
> Stupid collapsed on itself so far that even the neutrons have collapsed.
> Stupid gotten so dense that no intellect can escape. Quantum singularity
> stupid. Blazing hot mid-day sun on Mercury stupid. You emit more stupid
> in one second than our entire galaxy emits in a year. Quasar stupid.
> Your
> writing has to be a troll. Nothing in our universe can really be this
> stupid. Perhaps this is some primordial fragment from the original big
> bang
> ofstupid. Some pure essence of a stupid so uncontaminated by anything
> else
> as to be beyond the laws of physics that we know. I'm sorry. I can't go
> on. This is an epiphany of stupid for me.
>



you know what's really stupid Ed? Rerun flames


Gunner and I can possibly be the exact same degree of stupid to you

I guess you could say that you have now deemed Gunner stupider than you said
I was on 11/27/07 using the exact same series of really boring words, but
since Gunner is smarter than me this can't be correct

you need new material Ed

mk5000

"I believe in music the way some people believe in fairy tales"--August
Highmore
 

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