G
G.T.
Guest
[email protected] wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 18:37:47 -0800, "G.T." <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news[email protected]...
>>> On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 17:40:08 -0800, "G.T." <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 16:41:08 -0800, "G.T." <[email protected]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>>> On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 15:49:57 -0800, "G.T." <[email protected]>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Ed Pirrero" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>>>>> On Feb 12, 3:02 pm, "G.T." <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> "Ed Pirrero" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 12, 2:27 pm, "G.T." <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Ed Pirrero" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 11, 7:54 pm, Gary Young <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is a variant of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my-uncle-was-a-smoker-and-he-lived-until-95
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> argument.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Except for the small details that smoking will most definitely
>>>>>>>>>>>>> cause
>>>>>>>>>>>>> some harm, and, so far, disk brakes have caused none due to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ejection force being present.
>>>>>>>>>>>> None? You're sure about that?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Greg
>>>>>>>>>>> The answer to both questions is in the part you trimmed.
>>>>>>>>>> "(Qualifier: if some harm has occurred, it certainly hasn't been
>>>>>>>>>> distinguished from user error.)"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So now you're omniscient?
>>>>>>>>> Strawman.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you've got any, and I mean ANY, credible data that any of the
>>>>>>>>> incidents involving wheel ejection have been proven as disk-brake
>>>>>>>>> caused, go ahead and cite it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's sad that you and jb are such untrusting fools.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Missy's QR popped. She had definitely tightened it before the ride
>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>> she
>>>>>>>> was doing some goofy stuff. The Skareb had the lawyer lips intact.
>>>>>>>> [The]
>>>>>>>> XT skewer [was] really tight."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "QR WAS done up - I had checked it at the top and had not stopped,
>>>>>>>> crashed
>>>>>>>> or clipped anything that may have undone it."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Greg
>>>>>>> Dear Greg,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For the rest of us fools, trusting or otherwise, could you add the
>>>>>>> missing citation?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That is, who is saying that someone else's QR "popped"?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And where can we find it--a web page, a magazine, a newspaper?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> The first can be found by searching "missy giove wheel ejection" on
>>>>>> Google
>>>>>> and the other is on someone's site who y'all don't trust.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Greg
>>>>> Dear Greg,
>>>>>
>>>>> Wouldn't it be common courtesy to just provide the links?
>>>> See below.
>>>>
>>>>> Your Google suggestion provides 42 places to look:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.google.com/search?as_q=m...as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&as_rights=&safe=images
>>>>>
>>>>> See how easy it is?
>>>>>
>>>>> Why make it hard for people who are interested to look at whatever
>>>>> you're talking about? It gives the impression that whatever you're
>>>>> citing can't stand examination, which is scarcely your intent.
>>>> Because I don't believe that you, jb, or EP are interested or you would
>>>> have
>>>> found references to wheel ejections in the past.
>>>>
>>>> Greg
>>> Dear Greg,
>>>
>>> I'm asking where I can find what you quoted, which shows interest on
>>> my part.
>>>
>> Ok, my bad. When I searched just a little while ago this recounting was at
>> the top of the Google results:
>>
>> http://www.bikebiz.com/Missy-Gioves-QR-pops-open-
>>
>> Greg
>
> Dear Greg,
>
> Now there's something to look at.
>
> Sorry, but it's not very credible as it stands.
>
> "Missy's QR popped. She had definitely tightened it before the ride as
> she was doing some goofy stuff."
>
> Does that mean that the speaker thinks that Missy must have tightened
> it because she was doing some goofy stuff and he assumes that she
> would have "definitely tightened" it?
>
> Or does it mean that he saw her tighten it before she went riding and
> began doing goofy stuff? Who watches another rider slapping a wheel
> into the fork? It's possible, but strange.
>
> "The Skareb had the lawyer lips intact. [The] XT skewer [was] really
> tight. I'd actually mentioned your story to Rick when we were leaving
> the office."
>
> How does he know how tight Missy's skewer was if she was the one who
> tightened it?
>
> You may not like such questions, but they're the ones that any lawyer
> or expert trying to reconstruct an accident would ask. Whatever Jobst
> may think about the principles, here's his timely comment in another
> current thread on plaintiffs and accident reconstruction:
>
> "I would like to have seen the bicycle [another bike, not Missy's]
> right after the incident. It has been my experience that
> reconstruction of what occurred is often easier than first
> indications. That has been so, in every case in which I was called to
> testify. That is to say, the event did not occur as plaintiff
> described."
>
> In these anecdotes mentioned in this thread, people insist that they
> had just definitely checked a really tight quick release because
> they'd been reading that the QR might pop open unexpectedly--and sure
> enough, the QR that had no previous history of popping open obligingly
> pops open on the ride.
>
> Isn't it odd that there's no history of Missy's QR popping open while
> she did "goofy stuff" in redwood forest rides with two friends, one of
> whom just read an article about QR's popping open?
>
> Maybe Missy's QR had been popping open all the time, but she just
> never mentioned it to friends? It could be, but it would be odd that
> she never mentioned such startling behavior.
>
> Maybe Missy had never previously ridden so goofily? It could be, but
> it seems unlikely that a world-class downhill rider suddenly exceeded
> all her previous efforts on a casual ride.
>
> Or maybe the other usual (and less flattering) explanations apply? "On
> Any Sunday" cruelly shows Malcom Smith, arguably that era's greatest
> desert racer, attacking the Widowmaker hill-climb on his Husqvarna
> with the cameras rolling and huge audience, only to sputter to an
> embarrassing stop because he forgot to turn his fuel tap on.
>
> Of course, there may be a more detailed article somewhere about
> Missy's QR that would lay the obvious questions to rest.
>
> And this story and every other story mentioned in this thread could be
> perfectly true and accurate.
>
> But the strange pattern of QR's that pop open as soon as someone hears
> they might do so raises reasonable doubts.
>
> So does the rest of the article that you quoted, which doesn't even
> mention the possibility that the QR might just not have been tightened
> as claimed afterward:
>
> "On One's Brant Richards is not convinced the 'Missy incident' is the
> Annan theory found in the field."
>
> "'We don't know how Missy's QR popped open. She could have caught it
> trailside on something. It might well have been tight, but might not
> have been locked over centre.'"
>
> "'It could have been incorrectly installed, with the clamping surface
> not sitting properly in the dropout, and have settled loose, then
> flopped open.'"
>
> "'The problem now is people are now suspecting an Annan-type QR/disc
> problem, not the fact that something else - several other things -
> could have happened!'"
>
> "'We have a rear disc mount on our singlespeed jump frames, and the
> relationship of the disc and dropout slot means that certain riders
> have noticed the wheel being moved backwards by the force of the disc
> brake due to the forces involved. This is only when the wheel is
> clamped in place by a chaintug - a device to stop the wheel moving
> forwards - which spreads the clamping force over a large area. Use of
> just a good old track nut usually stops this in its tracks.'"
>
> "'I therefore don't discount the fact that the physics and my
> experience show that a wheel can be shifted in the dropout under
> braking load. But I do discount that a correctly installed QR of a
> correct over-centre-clamp type lock won't come undone unless it's
> disturbed on the trail.'"
>
> "And Richards has a cheap solution:"
>
> "'Surely something as simple as zip tieing the QR in a closed position
> would stop all this. It's the bicycle equivalent of the axle nut split
> pin.'"
>
> http://www.bikebiz.com/Missy-Gioves-QR-pops-open-
>
> For anyone unfamiliar with axle nut split pins, front and rear
> motorcycle axles often (if not invariably) come with a hole drilled
> sideways through the threads and use a turret nut that allows a large
> cotter pin to be inserted and prevent the nut from unscrewing.
>
> The cotter pins rarely survive the first wheel removal, and the empty
> holes usually plug up with mud and even tiny rock fragments on trials
> machines.
>
> As for the notion that racers (and sincere amateurs) are somehow above
> simple mistakes, remember that during major surgery a nurse is
> required to count the instruments and sponges because experience (and
> x-rays) show that extraordinarily well-trained and dedicated surgeons
> keep leaving things inside patients.
>
> And despite this precaution, instruments and sponges still keep
> turning up inside patients.
>
Yep, you're right. Just like jb and EP, you're right, it's always the
user's fault. As a techie at work I should know that by now. It's
always the users fault.
Greg
--
"All my time I spent in heaven
Revelries of dance and wine
Waking to the sound of laughter
Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons
> On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 18:37:47 -0800, "G.T." <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news[email protected]...
>>> On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 17:40:08 -0800, "G.T." <[email protected]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 16:41:08 -0800, "G.T." <[email protected]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>>> On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 15:49:57 -0800, "G.T." <[email protected]>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Ed Pirrero" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>>>>> On Feb 12, 3:02 pm, "G.T." <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> "Ed Pirrero" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 12, 2:27 pm, "G.T." <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> "Ed Pirrero" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Feb 11, 7:54 pm, Gary Young <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is a variant of the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my-uncle-was-a-smoker-and-he-lived-until-95
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> argument.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Except for the small details that smoking will most definitely
>>>>>>>>>>>>> cause
>>>>>>>>>>>>> some harm, and, so far, disk brakes have caused none due to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ejection force being present.
>>>>>>>>>>>> None? You're sure about that?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Greg
>>>>>>>>>>> The answer to both questions is in the part you trimmed.
>>>>>>>>>> "(Qualifier: if some harm has occurred, it certainly hasn't been
>>>>>>>>>> distinguished from user error.)"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> So now you're omniscient?
>>>>>>>>> Strawman.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you've got any, and I mean ANY, credible data that any of the
>>>>>>>>> incidents involving wheel ejection have been proven as disk-brake
>>>>>>>>> caused, go ahead and cite it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's sad that you and jb are such untrusting fools.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Missy's QR popped. She had definitely tightened it before the ride
>>>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>> she
>>>>>>>> was doing some goofy stuff. The Skareb had the lawyer lips intact.
>>>>>>>> [The]
>>>>>>>> XT skewer [was] really tight."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "QR WAS done up - I had checked it at the top and had not stopped,
>>>>>>>> crashed
>>>>>>>> or clipped anything that may have undone it."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Greg
>>>>>>> Dear Greg,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For the rest of us fools, trusting or otherwise, could you add the
>>>>>>> missing citation?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That is, who is saying that someone else's QR "popped"?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And where can we find it--a web page, a magazine, a newspaper?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> The first can be found by searching "missy giove wheel ejection" on
>>>>>> and the other is on someone's site who y'all don't trust.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Greg
>>>>> Dear Greg,
>>>>>
>>>>> Wouldn't it be common courtesy to just provide the links?
>>>> See below.
>>>>
>>>>> Your Google suggestion provides 42 places to look:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.google.com/search?as_q=m...as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=&as_rights=&safe=images
>>>>>
>>>>> See how easy it is?
>>>>>
>>>>> Why make it hard for people who are interested to look at whatever
>>>>> you're talking about? It gives the impression that whatever you're
>>>>> citing can't stand examination, which is scarcely your intent.
>>>> Because I don't believe that you, jb, or EP are interested or you would
>>>> have
>>>> found references to wheel ejections in the past.
>>>>
>>>> Greg
>>> Dear Greg,
>>>
>>> I'm asking where I can find what you quoted, which shows interest on
>>> my part.
>>>
>> Ok, my bad. When I searched just a little while ago this recounting was at
>> the top of the Google results:
>>
>> http://www.bikebiz.com/Missy-Gioves-QR-pops-open-
>>
>> Greg
>
> Dear Greg,
>
> Now there's something to look at.
>
> Sorry, but it's not very credible as it stands.
>
> "Missy's QR popped. She had definitely tightened it before the ride as
> she was doing some goofy stuff."
>
> Does that mean that the speaker thinks that Missy must have tightened
> it because she was doing some goofy stuff and he assumes that she
> would have "definitely tightened" it?
>
> Or does it mean that he saw her tighten it before she went riding and
> began doing goofy stuff? Who watches another rider slapping a wheel
> into the fork? It's possible, but strange.
>
> "The Skareb had the lawyer lips intact. [The] XT skewer [was] really
> tight. I'd actually mentioned your story to Rick when we were leaving
> the office."
>
> How does he know how tight Missy's skewer was if she was the one who
> tightened it?
>
> You may not like such questions, but they're the ones that any lawyer
> or expert trying to reconstruct an accident would ask. Whatever Jobst
> may think about the principles, here's his timely comment in another
> current thread on plaintiffs and accident reconstruction:
>
> "I would like to have seen the bicycle [another bike, not Missy's]
> right after the incident. It has been my experience that
> reconstruction of what occurred is often easier than first
> indications. That has been so, in every case in which I was called to
> testify. That is to say, the event did not occur as plaintiff
> described."
>
> In these anecdotes mentioned in this thread, people insist that they
> had just definitely checked a really tight quick release because
> they'd been reading that the QR might pop open unexpectedly--and sure
> enough, the QR that had no previous history of popping open obligingly
> pops open on the ride.
>
> Isn't it odd that there's no history of Missy's QR popping open while
> she did "goofy stuff" in redwood forest rides with two friends, one of
> whom just read an article about QR's popping open?
>
> Maybe Missy's QR had been popping open all the time, but she just
> never mentioned it to friends? It could be, but it would be odd that
> she never mentioned such startling behavior.
>
> Maybe Missy had never previously ridden so goofily? It could be, but
> it seems unlikely that a world-class downhill rider suddenly exceeded
> all her previous efforts on a casual ride.
>
> Or maybe the other usual (and less flattering) explanations apply? "On
> Any Sunday" cruelly shows Malcom Smith, arguably that era's greatest
> desert racer, attacking the Widowmaker hill-climb on his Husqvarna
> with the cameras rolling and huge audience, only to sputter to an
> embarrassing stop because he forgot to turn his fuel tap on.
>
> Of course, there may be a more detailed article somewhere about
> Missy's QR that would lay the obvious questions to rest.
>
> And this story and every other story mentioned in this thread could be
> perfectly true and accurate.
>
> But the strange pattern of QR's that pop open as soon as someone hears
> they might do so raises reasonable doubts.
>
> So does the rest of the article that you quoted, which doesn't even
> mention the possibility that the QR might just not have been tightened
> as claimed afterward:
>
> "On One's Brant Richards is not convinced the 'Missy incident' is the
> Annan theory found in the field."
>
> "'We don't know how Missy's QR popped open. She could have caught it
> trailside on something. It might well have been tight, but might not
> have been locked over centre.'"
>
> "'It could have been incorrectly installed, with the clamping surface
> not sitting properly in the dropout, and have settled loose, then
> flopped open.'"
>
> "'The problem now is people are now suspecting an Annan-type QR/disc
> problem, not the fact that something else - several other things -
> could have happened!'"
>
> "'We have a rear disc mount on our singlespeed jump frames, and the
> relationship of the disc and dropout slot means that certain riders
> have noticed the wheel being moved backwards by the force of the disc
> brake due to the forces involved. This is only when the wheel is
> clamped in place by a chaintug - a device to stop the wheel moving
> forwards - which spreads the clamping force over a large area. Use of
> just a good old track nut usually stops this in its tracks.'"
>
> "'I therefore don't discount the fact that the physics and my
> experience show that a wheel can be shifted in the dropout under
> braking load. But I do discount that a correctly installed QR of a
> correct over-centre-clamp type lock won't come undone unless it's
> disturbed on the trail.'"
>
> "And Richards has a cheap solution:"
>
> "'Surely something as simple as zip tieing the QR in a closed position
> would stop all this. It's the bicycle equivalent of the axle nut split
> pin.'"
>
> http://www.bikebiz.com/Missy-Gioves-QR-pops-open-
>
> For anyone unfamiliar with axle nut split pins, front and rear
> motorcycle axles often (if not invariably) come with a hole drilled
> sideways through the threads and use a turret nut that allows a large
> cotter pin to be inserted and prevent the nut from unscrewing.
>
> The cotter pins rarely survive the first wheel removal, and the empty
> holes usually plug up with mud and even tiny rock fragments on trials
> machines.
>
> As for the notion that racers (and sincere amateurs) are somehow above
> simple mistakes, remember that during major surgery a nurse is
> required to count the instruments and sponges because experience (and
> x-rays) show that extraordinarily well-trained and dedicated surgeons
> keep leaving things inside patients.
>
> And despite this precaution, instruments and sponges still keep
> turning up inside patients.
>
Yep, you're right. Just like jb and EP, you're right, it's always the
user's fault. As a techie at work I should know that by now. It's
always the users fault.
Greg
--
"All my time I spent in heaven
Revelries of dance and wine
Waking to the sound of laughter
Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons