Real Bike Cities.

[Elisa Francesca Roselli]

Mike Kruger wrote:

> I was surprised to see Paris on the original troll's list. I haven't biked
> when I've visited there, but there didn't seem to be a particularly high
> amount of bicycling and the traffic didn't seem particularly
> bicycle-friendly. Outside Paris (and I don't mean the suburbs) there seemed
> to be both more biking and a more bike-friendly atmosphere.

Paris is certainly better than London, but should be quite far down on anyone's
list of European biking cities. There are some bike lanes here and there, but
most of the time you have to share the bus corridors - with the buses! Traffic
can be demonic - I made the mistake of trying a route through the 15th
Arrondissement on a Friday afternoon just before a long weekend and it was
nose-to-nose trucks. Also, as I wrote in my thread on the Coulee Verte, there is
a tendency not to upkeep bike paths even when they are provided, and to design
them in such a way as to be practically unuseable.

I know it's only a smallish town, but I think Cambridge UK should rank on any
list of great European cycling cities.

EFR
Ile de France

 

[Per Elmsäter]

DRS wrote:
> "Per Elmsäter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>
> [...]
>
>> I doubt it.
>> Here in Europe we usually consider Holland as the best example of how
>> to plan and build for bicycle commuters.
>
> How much of it is actually planned? I lived in Almere and Amsterdam.
> I thought the bike paths (and roads generally) in Almere were
> designed by people on acid. And Amsterdam wasn't planned, it's old
> and organic (not that that's a bad thing).

That's the difference between Europe and the U.S.
We built our towns long before any cars and bicycles were around, then we
built the roads. In the U.S. it seems you build the roads first and then the
town.
Planning over here is utilizing what you've already got as best as possible.

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

 

[cheg]

"Red Cloud" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "cheg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<6Wjvc.41027$Ly.26887@attbi_s01>...
> > "Red Cloud" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > I'd take Seattle over Rome any day for bike commuting. Seattle does not have
the
> > plague of moped riders talking on cel phones filling every gap in the car
> > traffic.
>
>
> Do you see a lots bikers in Seattle?

Yes, especially around the University district. But biking is not as comman as
in ,say, the Netherlands. Seattle has a lot of hills and that makes it harder
for people who are starting to ride.

 

[DRS]

"Per Elmsäter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]
> DRS wrote:
>> "Per Elmsäter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>> I doubt it.
>>> Here in Europe we usually consider Holland as the best example of
>>> how to plan and build for bicycle commuters.
>>
>> How much of it is actually planned? I lived in Almere and Amsterdam.
>> I thought the bike paths (and roads generally) in Almere were
>> designed by people on acid. And Amsterdam wasn't planned, it's old
>> and organic (not that that's a bad thing).
>
> That's the difference between Europe and the U.S.
> We built our towns long before any cars and bicycles were around,
> then we built the roads. In the U.S. it seems you build the roads
> first and then the town.
> Planning over here is utilizing what you've already got as best as
> possible.

Um, I'm not in the US. And Almere is only twenty-five or thirty years old.
There's no excuse for its appalling road and bike paths design. The whole
thing was designed from the start to be as difficult and as frustrating as
possible. In a lot of ways Amsterdam actually works better.

--

A: Top-posters.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on Usenet?

 

[Per Elmsäter]

DRS wrote:
> "Per Elmsäter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]
>> DRS wrote:
>>> "Per Elmsäter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]
>>>
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>> I doubt it.
>>>> Here in Europe we usually consider Holland as the best example of
>>>> how to plan and build for bicycle commuters.
>>>
>>> How much of it is actually planned? I lived in Almere and
>>> Amsterdam. I thought the bike paths (and roads generally) in Almere
>>> were designed by people on acid. And Amsterdam wasn't planned,
>>> it's old and organic (not that that's a bad thing).
>>
>> That's the difference between Europe and the U.S.
>> We built our towns long before any cars and bicycles were around,
>> then we built the roads. In the U.S. it seems you build the roads
>> first and then the town.
>> Planning over here is utilizing what you've already got as best as
>> possible.
>
> Um, I'm not in the US. And Almere is only twenty-five or thirty
> years old. There's no excuse for its appalling road and bike paths
> design. The whole thing was designed from the start to be as
> difficult and as frustrating as possible. In a lot of ways Amsterdam
> actually works better.

OK. I've never been in Almere and I'll take your word for it
Yes acid was very popular in Holland 25-30 years ago.

--
Perre

You have to be smarter than a robot to reply.

 

[Dane Jackson]

Red Cloud <[email protected]> wrote:
> "cheg" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<6Wjvc.41027$Ly.26887@attbi_s01>...
>>
>> I'd take Seattle over Rome any day for bike commuting. Seattle does not have the
>> plague of moped riders talking on cel phones filling every gap in the car
>> traffic.
>
> Do you see a lots bikers in Seattle?

No no no. The dozens and dozens of people I passed on bikes yesterday
were obviously delusions caused by too much auto exhaust. Nobody cycles
here in the Pacific Northwest.

--
Dane Jackson - z u v e m b i @ u n i x b i g o t s . o r g
We all declare for liberty, but in using the same word we do not all mean
the same thing.
-- A. Lincoln

 

[John Smith]

"maxo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news[email protected]...

> > I ride on the road in Washington, DC and feel just like a vehicle,
> > too. I share the traffic lights with the cars and the trucks - no big
> > deal...

> When I was in Chicago, I'd often avoid the bike paths if I wanted to get
> somewhere fast and use the regular streets, the paths being clogged by
> geniuses on bikes and blades who think it's a good idea to listen to
> headphones at full volume and cluelessly block traffic. LOL

I used to comute by Bicycle in DC and I still commute (well as often as I
can, but not nearly as often) in Chicago. DC is a much better City for a
variety of "strange" reasons. The first of these is the condition of the
Chicago Streets. Due to its location at the Melt-Freeze zone, the streets
in Chicago are some of the most potholed, pavement up-lifted streets in the
world. They are full of nasty lots of poorly filled temporary patches.
Even a great brand new street only lasts a few years. This makes riding a
bit harder. Secondly the Mayor has decided to put in lots of Bike Lanes
but hasn't really ever enforced the bike only concept. What this means is
that, in bad traffic, the worst of the drivers end up charging up the bike
lanes in their SUV's and on their cell phones at high rates of speed. I
often used Elston Avenue to go from the Northwest Side to the loop. It was
a great ride. I never really felt threatened as it was more than 2 lanes
wide in each direction but a bit less than three. Then they converted it
into a one lane in each direction with a parking and a bike lane. It is
now a much tougher (and scary) ride. Lincoln Avenue, in contrast, is 1.5
lanes in each direction and does not have a bike lane for large stretches.
It is now the preferred route.

Of course one of the other "issues" is the type of bicycle. I commuted in
DC on a Road Bike. Soon after arriving in Chicago my road bike got badly
bent (as well as me I might add) by Domino's Pizza. I used a "hybrid" or
"commuter" bike for years and hated it. About a month ago I purchased an
Old late 70's/early 80's Lotus Road Bike and rebuilt it. Boy does it make
the commute better. A real bike that I can get up to a safe speed and hold
at that speed. I feel much more comfortable in 25 MPH traffic going 25
MPH.

 

[Mark Hickey]

[email protected] (Red Cloud) wrote:

> 3. London

.... didn't seem particularly bike-friendly to me...

> 5. Other European big and small cities

Some are, some aren't. Few have the bicycle facilities that exist in
Chinese cities.

> These europeans cities could be the best place for biker riders, and most
> Americna city like LA, NY, Pheoneix, Seattle are the worst place for
>biker.

Obviously you've never been to "Pheoneix" or Seattle. The Phoenix
area has one of the best bike traffic plans I've seen anywhere.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

 

[H. M. Leary]

In article <[email protected]>,
Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote:

> [email protected] (Red Cloud) wrote:
>
> > 3. London
>
> ... didn't seem particularly bike-friendly to me...
>
> > 5. Other European big and small cities
>
> Some are, some aren't. Few have the bicycle facilities that exist in
> Chinese cities.
>
> > These europeans cities could be the best place for biker riders, and most
> > Americna city like LA, NY, Pheoneix, Seattle are the worst place for
> >biker.
>
> Obviously you've never been to "Pheoneix" or Seattle. The Phoenix
> area has one of the best bike traffic plans I've seen anywhere.
>
> Mark Hickey
> Habanero Cycles
> http://www.habcycles.com
> Home of the $695 ti frame

Your BaaacK!

If Phoenix is so good, how come you go around head butting p/u tucks????

Please don't do that anymore....)

HAND

--
"Freedom Is a Light for Which Many Have Died in Darkness"

- Tomb of the unknown - American Revolution

 

[dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers]

>> 3. London
>
>... didn't seem particularly bike-friendly to me...
>

Since the introduction of the congestion charge in central London, bike use is
very much on the up in London. Indeed Transport for London produce free maps
showing cycle routes throughout the whole of London. The routes were devised in
conjunction with local cyclists, so I think that says something about them.

As I've got family living in London, I've got the set of maps, so I can cycle
about when I go to visit.

There's also lots of very active cycle groups down in London too.

>> 5. Other European big and small cities

I've cycled in Paris and in Cologne.

Paris was a sheer joy to cycle in. The difference in how Parisian motorists
behaved (with *loads* of courtesy and giving much room) as compared to cycling
in my local city (Norwich, England) was quite astounding. Cycling in Paris is
how I fell in love with the French. I *must* get back there some time.

Cologne is a very cycling-friendly city. Again, it was easy to get a hold of a
special cycling guide, a book giving loads of advice on cycle facilites and
routes in and around the city. The cycle map produced by the city, showing all
the cycle routes/lanes/paths in and around the city is *excellent*. When there
it was lovely to see cycling as an accepted form of transport for all ages.
Young kids on little tricycles to grandmothers & grandfathers out on their
bikes was the normal thing to see, and it was wonderful to see. One thing I
noticed there too, was the way on shared cycle paths, pedestrians really did
keep to their side of the path and cyclists to theirs. Cycling alongside the
Rhine was very pleasant. Cycles were allowed on the trams in and out of the
city centre and the suburbs. No hassle - lovely.

Cheers, helen s





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[Dennis Ferguson]

Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote:
>[email protected] (Red Cloud) wrote:
>
>> 3. London
>
>... didn't seem particularly bike-friendly to me...
>
>> 5. Other European big and small cities
>
>Some are, some aren't. Few have the bicycle facilities that exist in
>Chinese cities.

"Chinese cities" is too much of a generalization, I think. I was just
going to nominate Hong Kong's urban areas as an example of just how bad
a city can be for bicycles. The bigger Guangdong cities I've been to
with a bike didn't strike me as being cycling paradises either, though
there are a lot more people riding there so you at least get the benefit
of some strength of numbers. They are nothing like Beijing or Shanghai,
though.

>> These europeans cities could be the best place for biker riders, and most
>> Americna city like LA, NY, Pheoneix, Seattle are the worst place for
>>biker.
>
>Obviously you've never been to "Pheoneix" or Seattle. The Phoenix
>area has one of the best bike traffic plans I've seen anywhere.

After Hong Kong island I don't even need bike traffic plans to appreciate
bicycling in the American cities I've cycled in. US lane widths and
the relatively low (compared to Hong Kong) traffic density*speed products
are sufficient.

Dennis Ferguson

 

[Red Cloud]

Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> [email protected] (Red Cloud) wrote:
>

>
> Obviously you've never been to "Pheoneix" or Seattle. The Phoenix
> area has one of the best bike traffic plans I've seen anywhere.
>

Don't make me laugh. I used to live in Phoenix, and I hate this city.
There is no bikers. The streets are ****ing big and when AMericans not
depend on bike, no biker in the streets. Phoenix is like Orange County CA
where people just do not ride bike because they are too much depend on
4-wheels, and moreover it is not a Liberal city like Northern CA.

 

[Mark Hickey]

[email protected] (Red Cloud) wrote:

>Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
>> [email protected] (Red Cloud) wrote:
>>
>> Obviously you've never been to "Pheoneix" or Seattle. The Phoenix
>> area has one of the best bike traffic plans I've seen anywhere.
>
> Don't make me laugh. I used to live in Phoenix, and I hate this city.
>There is no bikers. The streets are ****ing big and when AMericans not
>depend on bike, no biker in the streets. Phoenix is like Orange County CA
>where people just do not ride bike because they are too much depend on
>4-wheels, and moreover it is not a Liberal city like Northern CA.

Troll. I doubt you've ever even been in Phoenix (you'd probably have
known how to spell it if you had).

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

 

[Sherry Katz]

I live in LA, in the San Fernando Valley. The LA Basin - where I used to
live - is absolutely horrid for cycling, but the San Fernando Valley where I
live now is actually pretty good. I've done a lot of cycling in Orange
County and Orange County is, in many of its areas, one of the best places
you could possibly cycle - wide lanes, lots of bike lanes, perfect weather,
new well-maintained streets. Ventura County is also a great place to cycle.

Before LA I lived in DC and at least up until about 15 years ago when I
lived there the biking was great in DC. I commuted to work everyday and,
despite the city traffic, it was very easy to ride in.


"Mark Hickey" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] (Red Cloud) wrote:
>
> >Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> >> [email protected] (Red Cloud) wrote:
> >>
> >> Obviously you've never been to "Pheoneix" or Seattle. The Phoenix
> >> area has one of the best bike traffic plans I've seen anywhere.
> >
> > Don't make me laugh. I used to live in Phoenix, and I hate this city.
> >There is no bikers. The streets are ****ing big and when AMericans not
> >depend on bike, no biker in the streets. Phoenix is like Orange County
CA
> >where people just do not ride bike because they are too much depend on
> >4-wheels, and moreover it is not a Liberal city like Northern CA.
>
> Troll. I doubt you've ever even been in Phoenix (you'd probably have
> known how to spell it if you had).
>
> Mark Hickey
> Habanero Cycles
> http://www.habcycles.com
> Home of the $695 ti frame

 

[Red Cloud]

Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> [email protected] (Red Cloud) wrote:
>
> >Mark Hickey <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> >> [email protected] (Red Cloud) wrote:
> >>
> >> Obviously you've never been to "Pheoneix" or Seattle. The Phoenix
> >> area has one of the best bike traffic plans I've seen anywhere.
> >
> > Don't make me laugh. I used to live in Phoenix, and I hate this city.
> >There is no bikers. The streets are ****ing big and when AMericans not
> >depend on bike, no biker in the streets. Phoenix is like Orange County CA
> >where people just do not ride bike because they are too much depend on
> >4-wheels, and moreover it is not a Liberal city like Northern CA.
>
> Troll. I doubt you've ever even been in Phoenix (you'd probably have
> known how to spell it if you had).
>

Troll Troll troll...



> Mark Hickey
> Habanero Cycles
> http://www.habcycles.com
> Home of the $695 ti frame

 

[Tom Keats]

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] (Red Cloud) writes:

> Troll Troll troll...

It's a lot easier on the nerves in some ways to ride with
a bunch of car traffic than a bunch of bicycle traffic.

But it's easier on the spirit in some ways to ride with
a bunch of bicycle traffic.


--
-- Powered by FreeBSD
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

 

[Wolfgang Strobl]

"Per Elmsäter" <[email protected]>:

>Here in Europe we usually consider Holland as the best example of how to
>plan and build for bicycle commuters.

I don't know any experienced bicycle commuters who consider Holland to
be especially bicycle friendly. On the other hand, I know a lot of
experienced and competent riders who fervently hate that model.

In theory, the Netherlands model means planning and building for
cyclists. In practices, it is a model for building ghettos in order to
get cyclists off the roads. Building and maintaining usable seperate
facilities for cars and cyclists doesn't even work anymore in the
Netherlands itself, where cycling has had a very strong tradition.

German attempts of imitating that here, but without having a unbroken
base in tradition, and trying that after having lost the battle about
separate spaces for pedestrians against the motorists long ago, has
produced cycling nightmares in many German cities. Take, for example,
the newly built bicycle lane in my home town, Bonn, the former capital,
which considers itself "bicycle friendly" (ha!). Have a look at
http://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/ansichten.htm and
http://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/inzwischen1.htm for example.

Make no mistake: the part of to the right of the green bushes
in http://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/rwbilder/rwarg03a.jpg
that's a newly build bicycle lane, built to the Netherlandian model,
according to those people who represent and propagate this fashion
arond here vociferously.

Thanks, but no thanks. I'd rather us the road, if I only could.
Unfortunately, **** like that shown above is mandatory for every single
cyclist, whether a child, a commuter, or a racer ridng at the speed
limit on that road.

--
Wir danken für die Beachtung aller Sicherheitsbestimmungen

 

[Dan Daniel]

On Sat, 05 Jun 2004 23:03:55 +0200, Wolfgang Strobl
<[email protected]> wrote:


> Have a look at
>http://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/ansichten.htm and
>http://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/inzwischen1.htm for example.
>
>Make no mistake: the part of to the right of the green bushes
>in http://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/rwbilder/rwarg03a.jpg
>that's a newly build bicycle lane, built to the Netherlandian model,
>according to those people who represent and propagate this fashion
>arond here vociferously.
>
>Thanks, but no thanks. I'd rather us the road, if I only could.
>Unfortunately, **** like that shown above is mandatory for every single
>cyclist, whether a child, a commuter, or a racer ridng at the speed
>limit on that road.

I don't read German, but from what I am seeing, are bicyclists
supposed to ride up that gray cobblestone ramp and along the sidewalk?
*This* is what they consider a bike lane????

Are these in areas of the city where pedestrians are common? What a
mess.

And it is illegal to ride on the roadway at all?? Whose stupid idea
was all of this type of work?

Does Bonn have any Critical Mass rides?

 

[Mike Kruger]

"Wolfgang Strobl" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Make no mistake: the part of to the right of the green bushes
> in http://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/rwbilder/rwarg03a.jpg
> that's a newly build bicycle lane, built to the Netherlandian model,
> according to those people who represent and propagate this fashion
> arond here vociferously.
>
Not the finest example of German engineering I've seen.

My sympathy!

 

[Wolfgang Strobl]

Dan Daniel <[email protected]>:

>On Sat, 05 Jun 2004 23:03:55 +0200, Wolfgang Strobl
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>> Have a look at
>>http://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/ansichten.htm and
>>http://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/inzwischen1.htm for example.
>>
>>Make no mistake: the part of to the right of the green bushes
>>in http://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/rwbilder/rwarg03a.jpg
>>that's a newly build bicycle lane, built to the Netherlandian model,
>>according to those people who represent and propagate this fashion
>>arond here vociferously.
>>
>>Thanks, but no thanks. I'd rather us the road, if I only could.
>>Unfortunately, **** like that shown above is mandatory for every single
>>cyclist, whether a child, a commuter, or a racer ridng at the speed
>>limit on that road.
>
>I don't read German, but from what I am seeing, are bicyclists
>supposed to ride up that gray cobblestone ramp and along the sidewalk?

Exactly.

>*This* is what they consider a bike lane????

Yep. It's called "Radweg", by the German STVO (Straßenverkehrsordnung
aka national traffic code).

If there is a blue sign with a white bicycle (quite visible in the
upper part of http://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/rwbilder/rwarg03a.jpg),
using that space is mandatory for all cyclists. ("Zeichen 240" in
http://bernd.sluka.de/Radfahren/rechtlich.html) gives a large picture
af the sign in question).


>Are these in areas of the city where pedestrians are common?

Sure. What do you believe how people living in these houses get out of
their houses?

Want some more? Have a look at
http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~chu/radwege/radwege2004.php
It's in German language, too, but the pictures IMHO speak for
themeselves.

Some pictures need an explaination, though. One might assume that
http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~chu/radwege/IMG_1156.JPG
shows bicycle lane on the sidewalk. Not so. The sidewalk is the part
to the right of the post. The bicycle lane is between the trees on the
left and the post, hidden under the snow.

http://radwege.udoline.de/streets/zwischenahn/langenhof/

http://www.ingokeck.de/verkehr/galgenbergsperre/

http://bernd.sluka.de/Donau-Radweg/dr2.html

http://home.t-online.de/home/klaus.mueller.erl/fjoh1.htm
http://home.t-online.de/home/klaus.mueller.erl/fsamml1.htm
http://home.t-online.de/home/klaus.mueller.erl/fschwab1.htm
http://home.t-online.de/home/klaus.mueller.erl/flist1.htm

http://www.mathias-heier.de/fradweg/fradweg.html

http://www.radwegmecker.frank-bokelmann.de/Gewalt.htm

http://siggiruehl.bei.t-online.de/radwege_koeln.htm


http://www.3gang.de/mz_radw/

http://www.hiss.org/~fifi/fahrrad/radwege/

http://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/rwbilder/radstreifen2/ein_spaziergang_durch_bonn.htm
http://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/rwbilder/radstreifen5/ks1.slideshow.html
http://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/rwbilder/radstreifen6/ks2.slideshow.html

http://radweg.mine.nu/~m/

http://radweg.mine.nu/ is a page colllecting many such collections.


>What a
>mess.

That's what I say.

>
>And it is illegal to ride on the roadway at all??

Sure. That's the law in Germany, and, if I'm not mistaken, in Holland
too.


>Whose stupid idea
>was all of this type of work?
>
>Does Bonn have any Critical Mass rides?

Sort of. Unfortunately, such rides are organized mostly by people who
fear riding in traffic like the proverbial plague, and approve anything
which gets them off the road, or at least gets them some little space
of their own, as little as it may be. For example, the bike lane
shown in
http://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/rwbilder/radstreifen2/images/07.jpg
has gotten a lot of positive press by the local ADFC (Allgemeiner
Deutscher Fahrrad Club, national bicycling club) as an example of a
notably good bicycling facility.


--
Thank you for observing all safety precautions