Realistic power goals

[RapDaddyo]

You may just try tempering your words a bit next time. Writing "I think Bozo could have designed a program to get me to 300w" is some serious smack talk for a guy who's had a powermeter for 2 months, planning on starting his training with a 300w threshold, yet has never ridden 60 min at 300w

Smack talk? Not at all. I'm just saying that getting to where I am now was the result of just getting in some serious time in the saddle and doing intervals 2x/wk and not the result of some brilliantly designed training program by me or anyone else. I don't think 300w is any marvelous feat and if that's where I level off I will consider myself a mediocre serious cyclist, as confirmed by Andy Coggan's power profiling spreadsheet (4 w/kg). I don't consider myself an outstanding athlete, just one willing to invest the time to realize his potential. Based on my progress since starting to ride again, I'll be surprised if I don't at least reach 300w. Surprised but not disappointed. What I'm capable of is what I'm capable of. All I have control of is training myself to my potential. If I do that, I'll be happy.

(what is your 60min power anyway?). I think you'll probably find it more challenging than you anticipate.

I don't know and, frankly, I don't care at the moment. There's plenty of time to measure it later. I don't plan to race until next spring. At this point, I just want to continue building both power and endurance across the board. I'm doing my intervals on the basis of an estimate of 275w. My seated efforts >200w have been compromised since late May by sore glutes. I don't know when I'll feel comfortable doing seated efforts longer than ~5 min. I'm certainly not going to risk further injury to just find out what the number is. Based on Andy's power profiling spreadsheet, my power on shorter efforts "suggests" that with training I should be able to achieve 4+ w/kg (even though I have yet to do an MP effort of any duration, even 1 min). Who cares if I find it more challenging than I think? Certainly I don't because I don't define success as reaching a certain number. I define success as reaching my potential with the time I have available for training. I just think it is going to be significantly more difficult and will require a much more well-thought-out training program to punch through the 300w barrier than it is to reach the 300w barrier (assuming I ever do). There's one thing I'm pretty sure of. In my geography, if I don't get to 300w I'll still be on the course when the winners are stepping on the podium.

This thread is about goal setting. I laid out mine as an alternative view and my thought process behind it. Most specifically, that I will have to develop a much more refined training program to get past 300w 1-hr power. And, that my goal is simple -- to reach my potential, however long that may take. That's what I believe. You're focused on numbers and I'm focused on the goal setting process and training plans to reach the goals.

 

[RapDaddyo]

you can "brute force" your way up to near 300W by riding long and hard for a few seasons. Now I'm looking to refine my training program so that I can keep developing rather than plateau-ing.

My sentiments precisely.

 

[beerco]

My sentiments precisely.

Good luck you guys

 

[robkit]

great post. i am reaching a point of obsession with my power:weight ratio and also yearn to know what is a realistic scale of improvement.

i am at 270 watts average for a 10 mile time trial, the big goal for me being to start the next season with >300 watts.

i have a couple of loose therories based on what i've seen so far:

- there are definate steps up, instead of just a gradual curve. anyone who has ever done weight training will know that after a while using the same weight on one machine or other, one day you just feel good for that extra 10 kilos, then you continue with it. same with my cycling, power seems to be static for a while, then i do a real good week of training and step up a level. the pattern repeats...

- i have been stronger than i am now, after about 5 years of cycling, before i took 8 years off (something i will regret to the grave, but c'est la vie, i drank a lot of beer and met a lot of women). previously my training was all quality not quantity, and there is so much to be said for the "go hard or go home" philosophy.

- you can do a lot of damage with weight. dropping a stone of body weight, for those who are carrying that much fat above the 8% level, is a massive gain, it will get you perhaps one level/cat up in the "power profile" - for the same body weight.


though i hate to bring bad news for those with a polar power meter, the accuracy is really questionable. i just took the financial pain of upgrading to an SRM and my numbers are really different, especially at the higher end when i'm sure the polar was really inaccurate and significantly underestimating my efforts.

finally let me just say how depressed i am to know that there are guys out there who start the season at threshold powers of 450 watts! (ie contenders for the sort of "TDF top 10". see the book "Tour De Force" by Daniel Coyle...)

 

[frenchyge]

- there are definate steps up, instead of just a gradual curve. anyone who has ever done weight training will know that after a while using the same weight on one machine or other, one day you just feel good for that extra 10 kilos, then you continue with it. same with my cycling, power seems to be static for a while, then i do a real good week of training and step up a level. the pattern repeats...

I'm hoping that trying to incorporate periodization and supercompensation in my training plan for this year will allow me to capture each of those steps when they prevent themselves, or possibly even facilitate the generation of additional steps. Here's the concept, although the articles on that site tend to be a little vague: http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=3141

finally let me just say how depressed i am to know that there are guys out there who start the season at threshold powers of 450 watts! (ie contenders for the sort of "TDF top 10". see the book "Tour De Force" by Daniel Coyle...)

Newsflash! There are guys out there that are smarter than me too, and richer, and better looking, etc. etc. I just try to 'keep it real.'

 

[Blackie]

Good post, some great thoughts. I have a few questions

1. Is the polar unit so bad (hope not, as I have one). I've reviewed various literature, and though the SRM is the gold standard, the polar is held to be reasonably accurate (and is cheapest). Its two disadvantages to me are that its meant to be quite inaccuate on a turbo, and that it won't show power onscreen for intervals (got to download it at home).

2. What did the eminent physiologists mean by the ability to increase power without increasing VO2max? I think I read somewhere that VO2max can be difficult to increase after a point (though not necessarily power).

3. Is there much of a relationship between VO2max and power. Similarly, is VO2max predictive of power - my VO2max is around 70 (this is on a polar watch, though lab values were similar). My power recently was 286W over 10miles. Does this sound right in relation to the VO2max. My riding schedule has been light this year due to commitments.

4. Finally, should we be worrying about threshold power at this time of year, as at least in the UK, the season is nearly done? (This is slightly a devil's advocate question, but would like your response). Most riders I know are firmly in the clock up the miles category til January, then do intervals til racing starts in March.

5. Next, does threshold power matter so much in racing? Given the amount of jumping and anaerobic efforts, one is rarely sitting steadily at a threshold rate, certainly not in crits. And what is its relation to hill climbing, where intensity is higher, and shorter than threshold.

6. Finally, is there any data out there, evidence based, looking at successful training strategies to increase power.

Hope you can be of help, thanks in advance

 

[RapDaddyo]

should we be worrying about threshold power at this time of year, as at least in the UK, the season is nearly done? (This is slightly a devil's advocate question, but would like your response). Most riders I know are firmly in the clock up the miles category til January, then do intervals til racing starts in March.

I agree with you. In my case, I am in month 5 of a 12-month program to be ready to race next spring. I don't care about my threshold power except as a benchmark to define my training zones.

does threshold power matter so much in racing? Given the amount of jumping and anaerobic efforts, one is rarely sitting steadily at a threshold rate, certainly not in crits. And what is its relation to hill climbing, where intensity is higher, and shorter than threshold.

If I understand his point of view correctly, Andy would say that threshold power drives all else (well, maybe not sprints). Increase threshold power and everything else, including recovery ability, improves as well.

is there any data out there, evidence based, looking at successful training strategies to increase power?

You would have to add that caveat, "evidence based."

 

[beerco]

1. Is the polar unit so bad (hope not, as I have one). I've reviewed various literature, and though the SRM is the gold standard, the polar is held to be reasonably accurate (and is cheapest). Its two disadvantages to me are that its meant to be quite inaccuate on a turbo, and that it won't show power onscreen for intervals (got to download it at home).

Yes, the polar is so bad. I used to own one and ditched it for a powertap. I would definitely not call the SRM the gold standard though as they often come out of calibration from the factory. Once calibrated they're plenty good though and have some advantages over the PT if price is not a concern. In general, it's believed that the PT and SRM Pro have equivalent accuracy and precision.

5. Next, does threshold power matter so much in racing? Given the amount of jumping and anaerobic efforts, one is rarely sitting steadily at a threshold rate, certainly not in crits. And what is its relation to hill climbing, where intensity is higher, and shorter than threshold.

Bike racing is all about threshold power. I'm sure that AC, Ric or Lindsay will chime in on that. Here's something I wrote which Charles Howe included in his training guide (I think I'm allowed to re-quote myself):

“When rested, I’ve got a pretty decent sprint (for a Cat. 4) at around 1100 Watts or so. When I hide, suck wheel etc., in a long race, I can produce about 800 Watts or so in the final sprint. When I’m pulling, chasing etc., I’m lucky if I can hit 650 Watts by the end. There’s another guy in my club whose sprint speed is about the same as mine (I don’t know his power), and when we do sprint drills, the results are split about 50/50. When we do our monthly time trial, he goes about 10 seconds faster on his road bike than I do on my TT bike. Guess who beats whom more often when we do our training races.

Anaerobic capacity is like a bank – every time you go over LT, you’re drawing from the bank, and again, the further and longer you go above LT, the quicker you’re withdrawing. You can only replenish the bank when below LT, so recovery from anaerobic efforts is directly related to how much you go above LT and long you stay there, and the higher your LT, the stronger your anaerobic efforts can be without draining the bank as much.”

-Andy B.

 

[robkit]

Good post, some great thoughts. I have a few questions

1. Is the polar unit so bad (hope not, as I have one). I've reviewed various literature, and though the SRM is the gold standard, the polar is held to be reasonably accurate (and is cheapest). Its two disadvantages to me are that its meant to be quite inaccuate on a turbo, and that it won't show power onscreen for intervals (got to download it at home).

2. What did the eminent physiologists mean by the ability to increase power without increasing VO2max? I think I read somewhere that VO2max can be difficult to increase after a point (though not necessarily power).

3. Is there much of a relationship between VO2max and power. Similarly, is VO2max predictive of power - my VO2max is around 70 (this is on a polar watch, though lab values were similar). My power recently was 286W over 10miles. Does this sound right in relation to the VO2max. My riding schedule has been light this year due to commitments.

4. Finally, should we be worrying about threshold power at this time of year, as at least in the UK, the season is nearly done? (This is slightly a devil's advocate question, but would like your response). Most riders I know are firmly in the clock up the miles category til January, then do intervals til racing starts in March.

5. Next, does threshold power matter so much in racing? Given the amount of jumping and anaerobic efforts, one is rarely sitting steadily at a threshold rate, certainly not in crits. And what is its relation to hill climbing, where intensity is higher, and shorter than threshold.

6. Finally, is there any data out there, evidence based, looking at successful training strategies to increase power.

Hope you can be of help, thanks in advance

1. Is the polar unit so bad (hope not, as I have one). ...

whether its reading a bit high, or a bit low, it is not the end of the world, and probably isnt too far out at the levels of power seen around threshold. i just found that it was out (by circa 10% for me though i'm sure its very installation dependent), and it was way light in terms of sprint power, the highest i ever recorded on my polar for 5 seconds was in the 700 watt range, yet my SRM is telling me over 1000.

4. Finally, should we be worrying about threshold power at this time of year, as at least in the UK, the season is nearly done? ...

my view is that if im goinf to have a month "off" in november, then the pwriuod leading up to the wind down is the ideal time to pound myself, before the best recovery of the year. and i want to start fro mthe highest possible base after that.

5. Next, does threshold power matter so much in racing?...

very much so, because after every big effort you have to recover. if your threshold power is higher than the next guy, then at the same race speed you putting in less effort, and recovering faster. which sooner or later makes all the differenve, the next time it goes barmy! also, and this is just my conjecture, lets say youre having to ride 1 min at 500 watts, with a threshold power of 300. if there is a guy with 350, then i suspect that that even if he's got the same "anaerobic capacity" (i cant define that term), then its going to last longer.

 

[RapDaddyo]

Anaerobic capacity is like a bank – every time you go over LT, you’re drawing from the bank, and again, the further and longer you go above LT, the quicker you’re withdrawing. You can only replenish the bank when below LT, so recovery from anaerobic efforts is directly related to how much you go above LT and long you stay there, and the higher your LT, the stronger your anaerobic efforts can be without draining the bank as much.”

Good analogy.

 

[Blackie]

Thanks guys, nice insights. Backs up what commonsense tells me.

The comment by Robkit on the polar being out in the sprint range makes sense - so far the most I've seen on it is just over 800W, and my sprint has been good enough to win 3rd cat bunch sprints before. The threshold number looks about right: at 286W over 10miles I managed 27min on a road bike (the course is very undulating, and was an out and back course). Those internet calculators say I should be going faster with those watts, but there you go. I'm 186cm and 76kg. Anyway, I'm stuck with the unit, and so long as its consistent, that will suffice.

Robkit - one question: how did you find out your polar unit was wonky?

I agree, of course, threshold is v. important in races. I guess I'm thinking, if you don't have the anaerobic training also, your legs will be knackered after so much jumping over threshold. The other comments about recovery are spot on. I like your one Beerco about your fellow who has 10W more.

If any of you have ideas on training to improve threshold power (or that have worked in your experience), would be glad to hear them. Am trying to combine the conflicting objectives of improving threshold power, but not overtraining in winter! The aim of improving threshold as a number, really strikes me as similar to the guy who aims to lift more weights (eg aim for a xkg improvement in xtime), analogy wise.

Finally, if you haven't read it, read Coyle's recent book on Lance Armstrong. A great read, in my view, and he puts W/kg at the heart of the book!

Cheers all

 

[RapDaddyo]

Sam is still trying to talk me into being the "TBD" instructor at the Colorado Springs clinic in October...

Andy, I hope you decide to do the CO Springs clinic. If you do, I plan to get my Club Level Coaching License and attend. I want to hear your 8-hour cycling physiology lecture.

 

[Rideastrong]

Andy, I hope you decide to do the CO Springs clinic. If you do, I plan to get my Club Level Coaching License and attend. I want to hear your 8-hour cycling physiology lecture.

I think i am going to be there too. I just need to send in my money once Sam Callen gets back from vacation next week.

 

[RapDaddyo]

I think i am going to be there too. I just need to send in my money once Sam Callen gets back from vacation next week.

I still don't know whether Andy is going to do the physiology lecture. Let me know if you find out and I'll do the same.

 

[Rideastrong]

I still don't know whether Andy is going to do the physiology lecture. Let me know if you find out and I'll do the same.

Hopefully this will get finalized in the next couple weeks.

 

[acoggan]

Hopefully this will get finalized in the next couple weeks.

It's official: I'm the one who will be lecturing on exercise physiology at the Colorado Springs clinic. If you can't make that one, though, an alternative is the Atlanta clinic - Andy Doyle will be handling that one, and he's an excellent lecturer.

 

[RapDaddyo]

It's official: I'm the one who will be lecturing on exercise physiology at the Colorado Springs clinic. If you can't make that one, though, an alternative is the Atlanta clinic - Andy Doyle will be handling that one, and he's an excellent lecturer.

Outstanding! I look forward to it.

P.S., Congrats on your finish at the Masters Track Nationals!

 

[Rideastrong]

It's official: I'm the one who will be lecturing on exercise physiology at the Colorado Springs clinic. If you can't make that one, though, an alternative is the Atlanta clinic - Andy Doyle will be handling that one, and he's an excellent lecturer.

you don't sound to happy about that..

 

[acoggan]

you don't sound to happy about that..

Not happy about going to Colorado Springs, or not happy about not going to Atlanta?

 

[Rideastrong]

Not happy about going to Colorado Springs, or not happy about not going to Atlanta?

Colorado Springs is definitly better than Atlanta.. Then again i live in Denver so going to clinic there is ideal. Thanks for taking on this clinic and i look forward to meeting you in person.