Really bad news

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Cyclenews said he was there for a cleaning, so no anesthetic was involved.

You'd be surprised, but some people need an anesthetic to get a cleaning. When I go for a cleaning
my dentist ask every so often if it hurt and whether I want an anesthtic. I always decline.
-----------------
Alex __O _-\<,_ (_)/ (_)

At least 2 people have questioned about mitral valve prolapse and dental procedures. It is very
unlikely that this had anything to do with Zanette's death. Mitral prolapse is just one of several
conditions that can ccause areas of turbulent blood flow in the heart. Patients with these
conditions are generally cautioned to take antibiotics prior to dental and some other medical
procedures to decrease the risk of bacterial endocarditis. This is a condition where bacteria infect
the interior lining of the heart. It is more likely to occur in people with turbulent blood flow
because bacteria will collect in the turbulent flow areas like flotsum will collect in an eddy in a
river. Bacteria are seeded into the blood during dental procedures. People who get endocarditis show
up with fever a day or so after having the dental procedure. They do not have sudden death will in
the dental chair. It is more likely that Zanette had a heart conduction system abnormality that
caused a lethal arrhythmia.
--
Mike Murray MD

At least 2 people have questioned about mitral valve prolapse and dental procedures. It is very
unlikely that this had anything to do with Zanette's death. Mitral prolapse is just one of several
conditions that can ccause areas of turbulent blood flow in the heart. Patients with these
conditions are generally cautioned to take antibiotics prior to dental and some other medical
procedures to decrease the risk of bacterial endocarditis. This is a condition where bacteria infect
the interior lining of the heart. It is more likely to occur in people with turbulent blood flow
because bacteria will collect in the turbulent flow areas like flotsum will collect in an eddy in a
river. Bacteria are seeded into the blood during dental procedures. People who get endocarditis show
up with fever a day or so after having the dental procedure. They do not have sudden death will in
the dental chair. It is more likely that Zanette had a heart conduction system abnormality that
caused a lethal arrhythmia.
--
Mike Murray MD

Frank Tantillo <[email hidden]> schreef in berichtnieuws
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

He may have had a heart murmur - believe it's called Mitral Valve Prolapse (sp?) -

Prior to a cleaning, the dentist will normally prescribe penicillin or anti-biotic, to prevent
bacteria from entering the system and attacking

the

Quoted message said:

dysfunctional valve (sorry, don't really understand the physiology here).

I've heard that the Streptococcus bacteria can infect patients when they are at the dentist. It
drills a small hole in one of the heart's valves and causes a heart attack. But as far as I know,
this can be prevented through surgery and I don't know if it can cause someone's death so quickly.

In any case, the Amore e Vita coach is far too quick with his conlusions. At least let the family
mourn in peace before throwing around accusations of doping.

Jonathan.

Alex Rodriguez said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Cyclenews said he was there for a cleaning, so no anesthetic was involved.

You'd be surprised, but some people need an anesthetic to get a cleaning. When I go for a cleaning
my dentist ask every so often if it hurt and whether I want an anesthtic. I always decline.
-----------------
Alex __O _-\<,_ (_)/ (_)

I just ask for some of those Peruvian candies they keep on hand.

"Mike Murray" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:s8RU9.674940$WL3.715116@rwcrnsc54...

Quoted message said:

At least 2 people have questioned about mitral valve prolapse and dental procedures. It is very
unlikely that this had anything to do with

Zanette's

Quoted message said:

death. Mitral prolapse is just one of several conditions that can ccause areas of turbulent blood
flow in the heart. Patients with these

conditions

Quoted message said:

are generally cautioned to take antibiotics prior to dental and some other medical procedures to
decrease the risk of bacterial endocarditis. This

is

Quoted message said:

a condition where bacteria infect the interior lining of the heart. It is more likely to occur in
people with turbulent blood flow because bacteria will collect in the turbulent flow areas like
flotsum will collect in an eddy in a river. Bacteria are seeded into the blood during dental
procedures. People who get endocarditis show up with fever a day or so after having the dental
procedure. They do not have sudden death will in the dental chair. It is more likely that Zanette
had a heart conduction system abnormality that caused a lethal arrhythmia.
--
Mike Murray MD

The autopsy could be interesting.

Brian Lafferty

"Brian Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote: "The autopsy could be interesting."

True, although it may not show anything. Conduction system abnormalities in the heart may be
difficult to demonstrate after the heart is no longer beating.
--
Mike Murray

"Brian Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

--
"Stewart Fleming" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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Marlene Blanshay said:

ANd there was a dutch cyclist, Bert Ooosterbosch, who died of a heart attack also at 32. He
was retired from the pros by then but was planning

a

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comeback when he died.

Possibly not the best example to use if we are looking for explanations

other

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than EPO use for an early death due to heart attack... STF

Steroid abuse comes to mind. Bernard Thevenet admitted that his steroid abuse was causing his
kidneys and heart problems.

Brian Lafferty

Heart attacks from steroids generally occur decades after steroid use, usually in one's fifties. It
could have been other forms of substance abuse, or it could have been due to congenital or
pathogenic causes.

"Brian Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Unless the dosages were quite high as was the case with Thevenet....and others of that period?
"Max Watt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Heart attacks from steroids generally occur decades after steroid use, usually in one's fifties.
It could have been other forms of substance abuse, or it could have been due to congenital or
pathogenic causes.

I'm sort of surprised at the comments here. Young athletes generally have a limited social life
and a lot more disposable income than others in their age group. This means that partying takes on
the same frenetic pace as their training and the use of recreational drugs isn't unusual in this
sort of group.

Cocaine is well known to cause the sorts of heart damage implied by Zanette's demise.

(Tom Kunich) said:

I'm sort of surprised at the comments here. Young athletes generally have a limited social life and
a lot more disposable income than others in their age group. This means that partying takes on the
same frenetic pace as their training and the use of recreational drugs isn't unusual in this sort
of group.

Cocaine is well known to cause the sorts of heart damage implied by Zanette's demise.

Zanette wasn't that young and he was also married with two little daughters. This kind of familiar
situation doesn't agree with a "Ullrich style" life. Also he wasn't known to be that kind of guy, he
came from the Friuli province, extreme North East, where people work a lot and make no parties. In
case of similar death by a southern racer like figueras, sgambelluri, commesso, that would be a
sound hypothesis, but in this case I frankly reject it as not plausible.

"Brian Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Unless the dosages were quite high as was the case with Thevenet....and others of that period?

Brian Lafferty

Thevenet's problem was liver damage. This is a problem with oil-based, synthetic steroids. There are
a number of steroids he could have used that woudn't have damaged his liver. Arnold Schwarzeneger
used probably much higher levels of steroids, for a longer period, but more benign ones. Still he
needed a heart transplant in his fifties.

The valve thickening that leads to heart attack, seems to be due to an inability of the heart
muscles involved to relax during sleep-- at least that's one theory. The valve becomes enlarged if
steroids are used chronically, which interferes with its function. However, this process takes about
20 years to become fatal after the enlargment has occurred.

Unless the dosages were quite high as was the case with Thevenet....and others of that period?

Brian Lafferty

--
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"Max Watt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Brian Lafferty" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

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Quoted message said:

--
"Stewart Fleming" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Marlene Blanshay wrote:

> ANd there was a dutch cyclist, Bert Ooosterbosch, who died of a

heart

Quoted message said:

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> attack also at 32. He was retired from the pros by then but was

planning

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Quoted message said:

a

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> comeback when he died.

Possibly not the best example to use if we are looking for

explanations

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

other

Quoted message said:

than EPO use for an early death due to heart attack... STF

Steroid abuse comes to mind. Bernard Thevenet admitted that his

steroid

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

abuse was causing his kidneys and heart problems.

Brian Lafferty

Heart attacks from steroids generally occur decades after steroid use, usually in one's fifties.
It could have been other forms of substance abuse, or it could have been due to congenital or
pathogenic causes.

"Max Watt" <[email hidden]> wrote: "Arnold Schwarzeneger used probably much higher levels
of steroids, for a longer period, but more benign ones. Still he needed a heart transplant in
his fifties.

The valve thickening that leads to heart attack, seems to be due to an inability of the heart
muscles involved to relax during sleep-- at least that's one theory. The valve becomes enlarged if
steroids are used chronically, which interferes with its function."

Wrong. He did not have transplant. He had surgery to replace his aortic valve. Evidentially the
valve defect was a congenital defect. Although there are cardiac effects from use of steroids there
is not much to support valve disorders associated with steroids. In fact, Schwarzenegger collected a
settlement in a defamation action against a cardiologist who made this claim publicly. You should be
careful Max.
--
Mike Murray

[email hidden] (Bikerecker) wrote

Quoted message said:

But...heart attack, at age 32? Is this just a tragic circumstance, or

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did someone's number come up on an EPO promissory note?

More or less, what i thought when I saw the news.

What does all this say about our sport, that this poor [censored] MUST be guilty of doping because he
dies at 32 from a heart attack. And this is supposed to be a group of racers (peers if you will,
well, excluding Kunich that is) Shame, shame. How about we actually wait for real facts rather than
letting speculation be this guys legacy, bet some of you "ace detectives" were on the OJ jury too,
another fine example of only hearing what you want to hear rather than the facts.

FOCKER

In article said:

[email hidden] (Bikerecker) wrote

Quoted message said:

But...heart attack, at age 32? Is this just a tragic circumstance, or

Quoted message said:

did someone's number come up on an EPO promissory note?

More or less, what i thought when I saw the news.

What does all this say about our sport, that this poor [censored] MUST be guilty of doping because he
dies at 32 from a heart attack. And this is supposed to be a group of racers (peers if you will,
well, excluding Kunich that is) Shame, shame. How about we actually wait for real facts rather
than letting speculation be this guys legacy, bet some of you "ace detectives" were on the OJ jury
too, another fine example of only hearing what you want to hear rather than the facts.

FOCKER

This is from the January 15th, 2003 Cyclingnews:

"Furthermore, the results of Denis Zanette's autopsy carried out in Padova by Dr. Santo Davide
Ferrara today point to a possible congenital heart condition. "A cardiac pathology, perhaps
congenital, difficult to diagnose without invasive clinical examinations, aggravated by a badly
treated bronchial 'flu," read the report. Both Zanette's father and grandfather died under similar
circumstances."

The final line seems fairly important here.

--
tanx, Howard

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, k?

For some people, quantity IS quality...

Howard Kveck wrote > This is from the January 15th, 2003 Cyclingnews:

Quoted message said:

Both Zanette's father and grandfather died under similar circumstances."> The final line seems
fairly important here.

Thanks Howard! As for the rest of you, I rest my case, Hope you're never falsely accused of
anything, maybe you're the one's who are the real threat to our sport, ever think of that?

FOCKER

Agreed.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Both Zanette's father and grandfather died under similar circumstances."> The final line seems
fairly important here.

Thanks Howard! As for the rest of you, I rest my case, Hope you're never falsely accused of
anything, maybe you're the one's who are the real threat to our sport, ever think of that?

FOCKER

Agreed. You would think people would wait for the evidence prior to condemning the guy. These are
the sentiments that Bartoli mentioned on his site. The evidence shows Kunich's original posting
about recreation drug use to be that much more retarded. Big surprise.

"G. Focker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Howard Kveck wrote > This is from the January 15th, 2003 Cyclingnews:

Quoted message said:

Both Zanette's father and grandfather died under similar circumstances."> The final line seems
fairly important here.

Thanks Howard! As for the rest of you, I rest my case, Hope you're never falsely accused of
anything, maybe you're the one's who are the real threat to our sport, ever think of that?

FOCKER

Nobody has accused the deceased of dying as the result of drugs. However, given his occupation and
prior involvment in a Giro d'Italia drug scandal, a thorough autopsy and judicial inquiry are, IMO,
proper. Reading further in the same CyclingNews article just quoted:

However, Dr Ferrara cautioned that (quoted in French sports daily L'Equipe), "His death seems
natural, but I can't rule out that it was linked to doping." The results of the chemical and
toxicology tests are expected to be known in a month's time, according to prosecutor
Dragotto, who also authorised that the body could be taken away for the funeral, which will
be held on Thursday.

Brian Lafferty

In article said:

Agreed.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Both Zanette's father and grandfather died under similar circumstances."> The final line seems
fairly important here.

Thanks Howard! As for the rest of you, I rest my case, Hope you're never falsely accused of
anything, maybe you're the one's who are the real threat to our sport, ever think of that?

FOCKER

Agreed. You would think people would wait for the evidence prior to condemning the guy. These are
the sentiments that Bartoli mentioned on his site. The evidence shows Kunich's original posting
about recreation drug use to be that much more retarded. Big surprise.

Well, let's put it this way: Had he died in his 60s or beyond of heart failure, nobody would have
said boo. Being a cyclist who dies in your 30s of heart failure is not conclusive evidence of
anything except that heart failure kills people, but it is a pointer that the possible contribution
of EPO use to premature death should be investigated. I knew it (and said so), the coroner knew it
(because he specifically addressed the issue), and you knew it, though you properly showed a little
more respect for the dead. I tried to be as circumspect as possible in my question, but it's better
to ask the question and have it answered than to just pretend EPO abuse doesn't exist, and that it
doesn't occasionally kill cyclists (in their 30s, by heart failure).

In this case, the coroner says no, and more important, I think we can rule out an impossible three
generations of EPO abuse in favour of three generations of unlucky genes. The family history is a
preponderance of evidence against this death being drug-related.

I apologize to anyone who thinks I was out of line, and my heartfelt prayers go out to Zanette and
his family.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] sfu.ca~rcousineOpen ↗ President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

I have a mitral valve prolaps and the dentist won't touch me unless I premedicated with a heavy dose
of prophylactic antibiotics. It seems with MVP, eddies form in the blood flow through the heart and
under some conditions, such as dental work, there is an increase of a certain bacteria in the blood.
This bacteria can accumulate in the heart, trapped in these eddies. This can cause a heart attack. I
have to do this even for a simple cleaning. My MVP went for years before I asked a doctor about it.
The only symptom was an occasional flutter like someone had just jumped out at me. It happens maybe
a couple times a month (that I can feel), passes quickly and is not at all bothersome. If it were
less severe, I might even notice it.

- Tere

Stewart Fleming <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Ryan Cousineau said:

and jogging guru James Fixx), but the early death of a pro cyclist due to heart failure always
raises one question, and it's not a pretty one.

Would that question be: "Did he have a pre-existing heart condition?" STF